homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » The homeless. Something should be done! (Page 1)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: The homeless. Something should be done!
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In sunny Leicester there's going to be a demo about homelessness. Well, that's something I suppose. I know order of magnitude (OOM) a hundred homeless and vulnerably housed people (20:1 M:F). Probably the penultimately and most acute. I can think of OOM 10 guys whose lives need living for them. That would cost a grand a week in a running system, which would cost a million to set up just for those 10. For the hundred the running cost would be a hundred grand a week. Many millions a year. After a set-up cost of a ten million. To transform their lives.

Meanwhile one third of Leicester's children are in poverty. Twenty six thousand. The national average is a fifth.

So, apart from the impossible of rich Christians being incarnational, what should be done?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17219 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm probably within a hairsbreadth of planking for saying this again but when there are something like 200,000 homes in England empty and have been for six months or more (and that doesn't include holiday homes) it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to solve this problem, and employ a few thousand others too.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24098 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Martin60:
Don’t know where you are getting what I think are your figures. Housing the homeless reduces the overall cost society encures from those same people if they are left homeless.

[ 18. December 2017, 13:50: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17236 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Initiative in Wales: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-42371181.
Posts: 9582 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

 - Posted      Profile for mark_in_manchester   Email mark_in_manchester   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think Martin's figures are not miles out, based on my contacts in supported-living set-ups for folks who can't run their own lives. The place my mate (bipolar - the most highly-functioning of the 10 or so house mates) used to live, used to have all bills paid centrally along with rent. When the rules changed they ran up a £3k gas bill over the summer - because it was always on, windows opened to cool down a bit. The men spent their disposables on beer and at the bookies. So I know what Martin means by 'living their lives for them'.

What's to be done? Well, I volunteer... Warden-assisted over-55 flats seem to be working out for the most together guys I know. This includes men who will drink themselves to death but are basically competent (and continent), and also men who are stable methadone users. Younger guys and people with more severe mental problems? Much more difficult.

Most will never work again, that much is certain. Even H, a Christian and someone who would happily and reliably turn up on time to sweep up.

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1550 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

 - Posted      Profile for LutheranChik   Author's homepage   Email LutheranChik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Salt Lake City -- a red city in a red state -- actually has an effective program for reducing homelessness. If I weren't this damn mobile phone, which makes it hard for me to navigate on these boards, I'd add a link for more info. But Google " Salt Lake City" and " homelessness."

In my small town, an empty hotel, a freeway off- ramp boondoggle by a major chain that was built but never opened, was transformed into housing for homeless vetrans...a private concern acting on the initiative of an Obama- era veterans program. It's had fits and starts, but at least It's a roof over people's heads. I can think of so many empty buildings that could be repurposed into homeless housing. Then there are cities like I think Portland, OR, which set up tiny- home communities for the homeless with laundry facilities and other common areas...not viable everywhere, but seems to work for them.

--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

Posts: 6360 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
At a recent event I was seated behind a former mayor of my city who I had worked for in a professional capacity. I asked him what he was doing in retirement and he told me he was on the board of trustees of one of our homeless shelters, overseeing its current renovation.

Not quite in Jimmy Carter/Habitat for Humanity league but still, kudos.

The poor will always be with us. That's not an excuse for doing nothing, but I think it is an indicator that beyond each of us doing what we reasonably can at our own individual levels personally, socially, and/or professionally, it's out of our hands.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17516 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Our local churches are gearing up for the annual Night Shelter provision, though in a conurbation of some 250000 people, there are thought to be only about 50 sleeping on the streets - 50 too many, I know, but some do choose this way of life.

No doubt there are many others, technically homeless, who hop from sofa to sofa in friends' houses....

A monolithic office building that dominates one town centre, and has never AFAIK been fully (or even partially) occupied since being thrown up in the 1980s, is being considered for conversion to (presumably) affordable social housing/flats.

Well, it may not be a perfect solution, but it would certainly be an improvement. I don't know, offhand, if any churches (or rich Christians, for that matter) are involved in the proposal.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9691 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Our Church runs a soup kitchen every evening in the town centre. Nurses, doctors and hairdressers also volunteer there.

Of course, the real answers are with the politicians, but we do what we can where we can.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12812 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Which is what Our Lord requires of us, I think.

The politicians must work it out for themselves.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 9691 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Martin60:
Don’t know where you are getting what I think are your figures. Housing the homeless reduces the overall cost society encures from those same people if they are left homeless.

Couldn't agree more lilBuddha. How do you get that visible expenditure transparently voted?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17219 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Martin60:
Don’t know where you are getting what I think are your figures. Housing the homeless reduces the overall cost society encures from those same people if they are left homeless.

Couldn't agree more lilBuddha. How do you get that visible expenditure transparently voted?
OK, here's some 100% bona fide anecdata. When a close friend was homeless he and partner went into a short-term private B&B at £60 per night. After six weeks (the statutory maximum) they went into a temporary (privately let) flat, at about £160 pw (One large room, including cooking etc, plus shower room/loo) then after three months to a two-bed social housing flat, at about £80 pw.

Right at the moment private B&B owners and landlords make money hand over fist.

Of course, there's a shortage of social housing* and if people don't have secure full-time jobs# they can't get credit so mortgages are out of the question.

*and we all know why
#we know why this is too

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24098 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Martin60:
Don’t know where you are getting what I think are your figures. Housing the homeless reduces the overall cost society encures from those same people if they are left homeless.

Couldn't agree more lilBuddha. How do you get that visible expenditure transparently voted?
It is difficult, because it is counter-intuitive for the way most people think. And multiple issues need to be addressed for it to be effective. Drugs, mental health, etc. It isn't a simple thing, but a place to stay out of the elements is the beginning.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17236 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Lutherchik commented

quote:
Salt Lake City -- a red city in a red state -- actually has an effective program for reducing homelessness.
The program is state-wide, actually. They have found that if they house homeless people and then provide wrap-around services, including case management, health care, rehabilitation services, and job training or employment search services, they actually find it costs only 1/3 of what it would cost to allow the people to stay on the streets.

Los Angeles has adopted this program as well as a number of other cities and states. They are finding about the same results.

The Obama administration was also moving to this model. I do not think the Trump administration has moved to cancel it. It just takes time to fully implement it.

Posts: 2113 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
lilBuddha, Gramps49. Aaaaaargh! How can Utah get it right and UK can't? Did we ever? Will we ever? Would a Corbyn government take the same approach to our 20% impoverished kids: spend billions now to save money by the trillion?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17219 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
lilBuddha, Gramps49. Aaaaaargh! How can Utah get it right and UK can't? Did we ever? Will we ever? Would a Corbyn government take the same approach to our 20% impoverished kids: spend billions now to save money by the trillion?

Utah does it by making up-front capital investment which HM Treasury is bitterly opposed to, hence we in Britain get one "sticking plaster" solution after another because it is treated as revenue expenditure and that, for God Alone knows what reason, is what Whitehall prefers.
Posts: 24098 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Because it doesn't commit to anything, it doesn't institutionalize the solution. And thanks Sioni Sais. I hadn't thought of that. How do we change that insane culture? OUR insane culture? Taxing business would be a start.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17219 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You need not think that the US is consistently excellent in its treatment of the homeless; we've also generated some spectacularly cruel solutions.

One of the problems with the issue is that there are so many causes, all of which demand different treatments: poverty, mental illness, spousal abuse. Also the problem doesn't stay in one place. Homeless people can and do move to areas where the benefits or weather is better.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5980 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There are two huge barriers to "solving" the problem of homelessness:

#1: "Why should those people get free / subsidized housing when I have to work my ass off and pay taxes?"

My answer to that is that if it's such a cushy deal, why doesn't everyone try being homeless for a while to get free housing?

#2: "We don't want those people here."

To which my answer is they're already here and they're not leaving. Would you rather have them on or off the street?

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5406 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
How were things in Britain before Thatcher made it possible for people to buy their council-owned homes? Was there a link between the number of people in publicly-owned homes and homelessness? It seems unlikely as I write, but my understanding of how housing works and evolved in the UK after the war is extremely limited.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1381 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
There are two huge barriers to "solving" the problem of homelessness:

#1: "Why should those people get free / subsidized housing when I have to work my ass off and pay taxes?"

My answer to that is that if it's such a cushy deal, why doesn't everyone try being homeless for a while to get free housing?

Classic selfishness, not just by taxpayers. There is a housing shortage and it's kept that way by landlords and builders, with their mates in councils, to keep rents and property prices high. The "Help to Buy" scheme boosts prices too, but few realise this.
quote:


#2: "We don't want those people here."

To which my answer is they're already here and they're not leaving. Would you rather have them on or off the street?

Some of those people are ex-convicts who, at the end of their sentences, have been dumped on the street. With no fixed abode, little if any cash and a criminal record they don't have much chance of getting a job, let alone one that pays enough for rent. More still are veterans, discharged from the Army which is often the nearest thing to a family they have ever known. Their psychological problems don't help either.

I suppose the answer to that question is i) don't send people to jail and ii) don't have an army.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24098 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Homelessness in Britain was bad in the 1980s, there were a lot of initiatives during the Labour Government which have reduced over the last 7 years and have meant we are looking at much higher levels of homelessness than we have for some time. There is an article in today's Guardian entitled "MPs condemn 'abject failure' of homelessness policy". The reduction in social housing is mentioned as a factor.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13665 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Finally! Andy Burnham (mayor of Manchester) is looking at how Finland has changed its policy on homelessness and virtually eliminated rough sleeping.

Andy Street, new West Midlands mayor (ex CEO of John Lewis) is going to go one better and plans to implement the same strategy.

Put very crudely, what the Finns did was realise that none of the other problems many homeless people have can be addressed until the housing issue is sorted out properly; so there is now a right to a permanent home, and anyone who is homeless is given a proper place to live.

Now I realise this sounds very simple and that maybe its easier in a country that doesn't have a huge amount of empty properties, but that last is something we can and should tackle.

Last time I was in London I was near a brand new block at night and there were very few lights on, despite it being 10pm. I was told by the friend I was visiting that most of the flats were bought off-plan by "investors", mainly from the middle and far east, and that they aren't let out, just left empty. That is a scandal which needs to be addressed.

Fining people for leaving property empty won't work: the person who buys a couple of flats as an "investment" for close to £1m isn't going to be too bothered if the Council Tax is doubled, quadrupled, whatever. What is almost guaranteed to fire their interest would be if any property that was empty for a period of more than, say 1 calendar year without it being part of a deceased person's estate was made subject of a compulsory purchase order and that the price paid should be no more than 90% (at most) of the value when it was last inhabited or when it was last bought if it has never been occupied. Legal fees to be taken from the CP price paid before the proceeds are paid plus a surcharge of 1 year's Council Tax.

I make that suggestion as someone who has a couple of rental properties.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4788 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think you'd need to add "or the possession of a person who has had to move into residential care"

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17807 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You'd also have to define "empty". If the people buying these flats as investments wouldn't be bothered by council tax rises, they probably wouldn't be too put out by having a weekend break in their flat once a year.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 29992 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025

 - Posted      Profile for Helen-Eva   Email Helen-Eva   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm glad to see this discussion as I keep walking past homeless people on the streets of London and I hate to see them there and part of my brain says "the Bible says you should give to beggars" and part of my brain says "charities say handing out cash isn't the right thing to do" by which point I'm walking half way down the road having a very Anglican philosophical crisis which is no help to anyone.

Seems like there are two problems that are coming up here:
1) Not enough homes. Fairly clear cut one that.
2) People who can't cope and/or don't want a home. Really difficult one to solve there.

If you put people who couldn't cope in a home without other help, presumably they'd still not be able to cope. A friend reports a guy who decided to live in the churchyard of her church even though he had a house.

So - what to do...???

Aaaargh

--------------------
I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

Posts: 630 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think there are general principles that can validly be discussed across jurisdictions, but I suspect that once you get a roof over someone's head, dealing with the underlying cause of a person's homelessness becomes more and more about specifics. I mean offering tailored assistance to each individual. I'm quite negative about systems. I think they can get in the way of seeing the person and allowing them to tailor their own assistance.

That said, I remember seeing a report some months back which said that the experience in Finland (?) is that if people have a place to call home (as distinct from crisis accommodation) it reduces the size of their underlying problems.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1381 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You'd also have to define "empty". If the people buying these flats as investments wouldn't be bothered by council tax rises, they probably wouldn't be too put out by having a weekend break in their flat once a year.

There is one thing guaranteed to make them bothered - a court order entitling people to enter, get utilities connected and live there rent free until the landlord or council sort out housing.

As for a "weekend break" you're ignoring the need for security of tenure. Shelter is a pretty fundamental human need and shouldn't be subject to whims and vague thoughts that some people don't want to be housed: if they have problems that serious they might need some kind of assisted housing.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24098 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not in a thousand years or ten. Thousand. Property rights are utterly sacrosanct, more so than life itself.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17219 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Not in a thousand years or ten. Thousand. Property rights are utterly sacrosanct, more so than life itself.

Nailed it.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24098 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Salt Lake City -- a red city in a red state -- actually has an effective program for reducing homelessness. If I weren't this damn mobile phone, which makes it hard for me to navigate on these boards, I'd add a link for more info. But Google " Salt Lake City" and " homelessness."

SLC is just one of another cities who has done this thru a federal program called "housing first" which is what I'd recommend googling for more detailed info. It's about moving people out of shelters and into transitional and then permanent housing. It's quite costly but very successful, tho not without its critics (notably Andy Bales of LAs Union Rescue Mission.

It works best as a coalition of several parties. I'm part of the effort in my city, leading our churches part in hosting the bad weather shelter (first line in a "continuum of care"). We have local government, businesses and churches all working together, all providing funding and staffing, with funding as well from federal, state and local govt. it is a huge effort, but thru this endeavor we have reduced homelessness in our city by 50 percent in 5 years, and ended homelessness among families with children

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11165 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What you have done there cliffdweller is to point out that the solution isn't as simple as I make it out to be, that the problem is very serious indeed but that the situation can be considerably improved. I too doubt that there will ever be zero poverty and zero homelessness, but we ought to strive so that these is a lot less of both about.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24098 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
What you have done there cliffdweller is to point out that the solution isn't as simple as I make it out to be, that the problem is very serious indeed but that the situation can be considerably improved. I too doubt that there will ever be zero poverty and zero homelessness, but we ought to strive so that these is a lot less of both about.

Absolutely. I'm very proud of the progress we've made in our city. And thrilled to be a part of it

The one dark spot is housing first is an Obama-era federal program and Trump seems determined to undo everything Obama ever did. It would be a tragedy if that happens just as we're starting with to gain traction nation wide on a decades long challenge. But the horrific tax bill passed yesterday has me very concerned

[ 20. December 2017, 15:07: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11165 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I think there are general principles that can validly be discussed across jurisdictions, but I suspect that once you get a roof over someone's head, dealing with the underlying cause of a person's homelessness becomes more and more about specifics. I mean offering tailored assistance to each individual. I'm quite negative about systems. I think they can get in the way of seeing the person and allowing them to tailor their own assistance.

That said, I remember seeing a report some months back which said that the experience in Finland (?) is that if people have a place to call home (as distinct from crisis accommodation) it reduces the size of their underlying problems.

This is the foundational research behind housing first. Basically whatever the underlying problems are-- addiction, mental illness, etc-- they are so complicated by homelessness they become intractable. With housing, intervention programs have a much better success rate

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11165 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
There are two huge barriers to "solving" the problem of homelessness:

#1: "Why should those people get free / subsidized housing when I have to work my ass off and pay taxes?"

My answer to that is that if it's such a cushy deal, why doesn't everyone try being homeless for a while to get free housing?

Classic selfishness, not just by taxpayers. There is a housing shortage and it's kept that way by landlords and builders, with their mates in councils, to keep rents and property prices high. The "Help to Buy" scheme boosts prices too, but few realise this.
quote:


#2: "We don't want those people here."

To which my answer is they're already here and they're not leaving. Would you rather have them on or off the street?

Some of those people are ex-convicts who, at the end of their sentences, have been dumped on the street. With no fixed abode, little if any cash and a criminal record they don't have much chance of getting a job, let alone one that pays enough for rent. More still are veterans, discharged from the Army which is often the nearest thing to a family they have ever known. Their psychological problems don't help either.
J
I suppose the answer to that question is i) don't send people to jail and ii) don't have an army.

Another large category in the US is aged out foster kids. Every parent of an 18 year old knows how much parental effort it takes to "launch" a newly emerged adult, whether they're going off to college or job/vocational path. Doing so w/o any adult guidance, mentoring, funding, or safety net when you try and fail can be a daunting task

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11165 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It is clear, when you look at the apartment buildings and houses, that there is enough housing. The number of empty flats in London is notorious. And I was surprised, when bucketing around France, to see how many houses and flats were simply closed up. The shutters up, the doors locked, but clearly owned and tenanted by somebody who wasn't there. A weekend house? A rental currently unrented (but with no 'for rent' sign posted)? A tax shelter for some rich tycoon? In any case, there's a lot of housing stock that is not being lived in.

Surely this is not just.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5980 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It might not be just but it's not simple to resolve.

Most of the places where there are not-lived-in-at-all homes in France are in places nobody wants to live because they are too far from jobs and servies, especially for those without their own transport.

Many French people have a second home because compared to the UK we became an industrialised nation that bit later, so rural family homes are still around.

Other homes are tied up in divorce or succession wrangles. You can't do much with them until those are resolved.

And finally, from a landlord's point of view, squatters' rights are a disincentive. Once you are in accommodation you cannot be evicted during the winter months and even thereafter it can be difficult.

ETA also, my investment property is a good bit of the meagre pension income I'm expecting, if I can manage to pay off the loan for it. Would you like me to relinquish that?

[ 20. December 2017, 15:45: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17516 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is clear, when you look at the apartment buildings and houses, that there is enough housing. The number of empty flats in London is notorious. And I was surprised, when bucketing around France, to see how many houses and flats were simply closed up. The shutters up, the doors locked, but clearly owned and tenanted by somebody who wasn't there. A weekend house? A rental currently unrented (but with no 'for rent' sign posted)? A tax shelter for some rich tycoon? In any case, there's a lot of housing stock that is not being lived in.

Surely this is not just.

fwiw, this is definitely not the case here (Calif.). Here a severe housing shortage is part of the problem-- both in driving up rent and in finding places to house our homeless, even with subsidies. A big part of our success (and why it needs to be a multi-level coalition of city, business and church interests) has come from rather heavy-handed zoning/permitting that requires developers to set aside a percentage of new units built for low-income housing. Without this heavy intervention on the part of the city, we would not have been able to achieve the success we've had, no matter what funding we were able to raise.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11165 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I simply point out the larger picture. There is housing; there are places for people to live. We just haven't figured out how to get the people in need to live there. (Another thought -- the half-empty villages in rural Italy. Of course they are half-empty because there are no jobs in rural Italy...)

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5980 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
alienfromzog

Ship's Alien
# 5327

 - Posted      Profile for alienfromzog   Email alienfromzog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's ok though, coz they not all on the streets... [Roll Eyes] [brick wall] [brick wall]

Yes that is actually what our Prime Minister said when asked about homeless children...

Link to clip from PMQs 20/12/17

[Mad] Incandescent is what I am. [Mad]

AFZ

--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

Posts: 2121 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I simply point out the larger picture. There is housing; there are places for people to live. We just haven't figured out how to get the people in need to live there. (Another thought -- the half-empty villages in rural Italy. Of course they are half-empty because there are no jobs in rural Italy...)

The political will to do this is not present in my state, or my country. Politics might be the art of the achievable, but Australian pollies are not in the business of expanding that category.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1381 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

 - Posted      Profile for la vie en rouge     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
And I was surprised, when bucketing around France, to see how many houses and flats were simply closed up. The shutters up, the doors locked, but clearly owned and tenanted by somebody who wasn't there. A weekend house? A rental currently unrented (but with no 'for rent' sign posted)? A tax shelter for some rich tycoon? In any case, there's a lot of housing stock that is not being lived in.

Surely this is not just.

This is related to another problem. Down our way in the South West, housing is plentiful. Employment isn’t. The rents are cheap (literally, about 30% of what they are in Paris [Eek!] ), but if you can’t find a job anywhere nearby, you’re not interested in living there.

There are plenty of apartments sitting empty in Paris, and I find it scandalous. Trying to find affordable housing here is a nightmare. When you turn up to view an apartment, there are commonly forty other people in the queue to look at it as well. People on average incomes live in poky, badly maintained, overpriced accommodation because they have no choice. Meanwhile, rich people buy property, leave it empty, and speculate. For my money, the tax code needs major overhaul – until recently you paid less tax on an empty property than on an inhabited one. I want the government to start taxing the living daylights out of the speculators.

--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France

Posts: 3647 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's the same in London, by all reports. Huge luxury apartment blocks sitting empty while poor people scramble for shacks. There are cities on our side of the pond (Vancouver BC, New York, San Francisco) which have something of this, but it's not as bad.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5980 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh, and here's a long article from the Guardian about one solution. I will say that the shuffling of the poor or homeless from one jurisdiction to another dates back to medieval times.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5980 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555

 - Posted      Profile for wild haggis         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Housing is one problem but it is much more complex, as has been said already.

There are people on the streets who can't cope in housing. They have been so long on the streets they don't know how to live in a house or feel shut in.

There are people with drug and drink problems who need treatment and putting them in houses without that support won't help them. Many on the streets originally didn't take drugs, now do, in order to help them cope with being homeless.

I think what is more worrying are the hidden homeless i.e. those that sofa surf and rely on friends to give them a bed at night.The families living in one room B&B. They aren't so obvious. 6 months after the Grenville Tower fire, in spite of fine words and promises of all sorts of help, people are still in temporary accomodation! What an indictement on our society!

I'm afraid the British Government couldn't care less.They never really listen to, nor talk meaningfully to the agencies who are coping with homelessness. I would guess that no one in the Cabinet engages with people living on the streets, B&B or attending Food Banks. Doesn't it remind you, just a little, of a story Jesus told. (Wonder if Teresa May actually listens to that parable or indeed reads her Bible to find out what Jesus had to say about it all. She goes to church but............)

Central Government has drastically cut the money coming to councils so that they can no longer afford the case workers to be out in the streets finding out what is happening, nor afford to fund accomodation with support. Where do MPs think money is coming from to run these services? Telling councils to do better on less funds would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

Until politicians get out into the real world the situation won't change. I would love to see Teresa May and the rest of the Cabinet on Christmas Eve, helping in Night Shelters and soup runs and talking to people on the streets. But no, they sit in their nice expensive houses (usually more than one)sipping expensive wine and opening presents, ignoring the real world outside their posh doors.

We need leadership and compassion from our Government. But I'm afraid we won't get it; they think the country is doing well because the money markets are OK. But money isn't people. Until politicians stop worshiping at the shrine of the economy and change their focus from money to real live people, sadly, the situation won't get any better.

So let's get involved ourselves in helping at night shelters, food banks, volunteering or giving to charities such as Emmaus, Shelter, Crisis, Centrepoint etc. Let's start bagering our counsellors and MPs to do something. invite them to come with you and talk to homeless people of all kinds.

It could happen to any of us. All that needs to happen is our job goes, then we can't pay the rent/mortgage and..................

--------------------
wild haggis

Posts: 143 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
hear hear. Excellent post.

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1381 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Wild Haggis is quite right that there are multiple factors leading to homelessness, that complicate things. The thing is, the reasearch that the "housing first" model is based on shows that any interventions to assist with those factors is pretty much as ineffective unless and until they are in permanent supportive housing. Otoh, as Andy Bsles (director of LAs Union Rescue Mission) has pointed out, right now we're putting all our meager resources intonfinding/ bldg that housing and none at all into those supportive services

The issue with couch surfing isn't as problematic imho. For some, it's precisely what's needed to bridge the gap after a setback or even stupid mistake. The key is to reach people before they end up actually on the street. I've been doing this work for 5 years now (not that long) and I'm always amazed and heartbroken by how quickly people decline and even become dehumanized by others once they're on the street-- often only a matter of days. Once that happens it to really really hard to turn it around. Kind friends with a spare couch are often all that's standing in that breach

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11165 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842

 - Posted      Profile for teddybear   Author's homepage   Email teddybear   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I work with large numbers of homeless and have for about 25 years. Although many do not want to admit it, there are many who will always be homeless, no matter what is done for them. Often it is related to just an inability to manage their funds, the inability to follow the rules in homeless shelters or other living situations. There are also many who prefer being on their own, even it means they are on the streets.

--------------------
My cooking blog: http://inthekitchenwithdon.blogspot.com/

Posts: 477 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The reasearch that the "housing first" model is based on shows that any interventions to assist with those factors is pretty much as ineffective unless and until they are in permanent supportive housing.

Which is why initiatives such as "Hope into Action" are important, as they offer housing and support. (I'm surprised and pleased to see that they've been commended by The Guardian, not always the most church-friendly of nwspapers).
Posts: 9582 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Has anyone done an objective study that would prove to a city council that they would save money by running managed shelter? Any city itself?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17219 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools