homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Born to Die? (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Born to Die?
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I like that, Josephine.

As an Orthophile and iconodule I admire the way the various threads interweave 'seamlessly' in the Liturgy, the Calendar, feasts, fasts and festivals of the Orthodox year.

Of course, these days it all has to be reinforced by catechesis and systematic instruction. It can't be assumed that people will simply imbibe it all by osmosis and by regular attendance, which would have been the hope and expectation back in the day in both Eastern and Western Christianity.

I can understand how the desire to 'force' or highlight things, to 'preach for conversion' came about, leading to what we find today in contemporary revivalism with its 'calls to action' - the 'going down the front', or 'going forward' (terms which seem to have replaced the 'altar call' in these settings).

My wife helps out with the he choir in a lovely 14th century church a few miles north of here. She practices with them on a Friday night in exchange for singing with them on high-days and holidays and at the occasional wedding.

I go along to things like Candlemas, the occasional Evensong and their Nine Lessons and Carols in the Advent season.

These are conducted without commentary with the appointed readings, seasonal hymns and anthems. I find it's 'all there', but only, of course because I'm familiar with the pattern,the narratives,the readings.

That can't allows be assumed, of course, which is why the evangelical vicar in our local parish will keep interrupting the flow to 'explain' things, add glosses, chip in with this that and the other. I don't go there much these days but when I do I wish he'd stick to the script as it speaks for itself ...

In 'mission' terms there has to be a balance somewhere, but I'm finding the presentation in some of these places to be increasingly 'forced' and somewhat contrived. Things dumbed down.

Anyhow, good to 'see' you and I wish you a blessed Nativity season.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Luke talks of ‘salvation’ in the nativity narrative without mentioning the cross – see the benedicus and the visitation.

It would seem that the incarnation, by itself, brings salvation.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Luke talks of ‘salvation’ in the nativity narrative without mentioning the cross – see the benedicus and the visitation.

Yes, but …

quote:
It would seem that the incarnation, by itself, brings salvation.
I think that’s taking your examples from Luke beyond what he said or meant. I think the better reading, and as I understand it the orthodox reading, are that the Incarnation (including the life and ministry of Jesus), the crucifixion and the Resurrection are part of one salvific event.

[ 23. December 2017, 16:34: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, indeed Nick.

It's this filleting approach again.

It seems everyone does it, liberals, evangelicals ...

I sometimes find the Orthodox 'maximalist' approach somewhat intimidating, but I can understand why they maintain that given the tendency in the West to fillet everything down into bite-size chunks or to disaggregate certain aspects and brandish them around as if they're the big be-all and end-all ...

'We are the BAPTIST Church ...', 'We are the SALVATION Army ...', 'We are a Holiness / Charismatic / Reformed / Yadda Yadda Yadda movement ...', 'We preach Christ crucified ... what was that about the moral teachings again?'

We all do it, though.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The whole reason, according to Matthew and Luke was not merely for God to be with us, but for God to be our Saviour - which, I'm sorry to remind you, necessarily involved the cross.

This made me think of the famous critique of liberalism by Helmut Richard Niebuhr, hardly a card-carrying, orthodox evangelical: "A God without wrath brought men without sin into a kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a cross."
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sure, but I don't detect anyone on this thread actually stating or implying any such thing ... (although leo might have come close)

Otherwise it's simply Mudfrog doing his censorious evangelical preacher bit for Christmas ...

Perhaps it's as much of a Christmas tradition as some of the local clergy hereabouts blarting on about how people are only coming to church at Christmas out of nostalgia or to sing happy carols and soak up the Christmassy atmosphere ...

Reverend Ebenezer Scrooge meets the Puritan ban on mince pies.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't think that's the case at all, Mudfrog, but I can only speak for myself though ...

It's not that I don't want the Cross at Christmas, it's more a case that fast-forwarding to that skips over a whole swathe of 'the Christ event'.

It's reductionist.

Why not have Jesus martyred by Herod during the Massacre of the Innocents?

Why bother with the teaching and the Parables, the miracles, the Sermon on The Mount?

Why not have Herod's troops or Roman soldiers standing by to execute Christ as he lay in swaddling cloths in the manger?

If anyone's preaching a truncated Gospel it's those who telescope everything down to simplistic sound-bites whilst imagining they are preaching 'the whole counsel of God.'

The simple answer is that he had to give his life. He had to lay it down of his own accord - no one would take it from him.

As for his teaching; well, hardly any of it is original. It's all Rabbinic teaching already in circulation.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Gamaliel, reading the comments you are making about me... have you got out of the wrong side of the bed? You seem a tad hostile to and about me this evening.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Luke talks of ‘salvation’ in the nativity narrative without mentioning the cross – see the benedicus and the visitation.

It would seem that the incarnation, by itself, brings salvation.

How?

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Apologies to you and to the Hosts and Admins if I sounded as hominem, Mudfrog.

I hear you no ill will and wish you and yours a very Merry Christmas.

I did find your comments unnecessarily censorious, though, particularly when nobody here appeared to be advocating a Crossless Christianity.

Leo probably isn't either, although I suspect his take on the atonement would be very different to yours.

I've also been debating with Jamat elsewhere and that can make me over-react somewhat when dealing with other conservative evangelicals on these boards.

Anyhow, my general point is non-partisan as I think all of us, whether liberal, conservative or whatever else in our theology tend to fast-forward to our favourite bits whatever the topic.

I have no issue whatsoever to allusions to Calvary at Christmas or indeed any other time of year.

What I do have a problem with is a kind of reductionist obsession with part of the picture instead of trying to take a more holistic view. I'm not accusing evangelicals of that any more than liberals. Both do it in different ways.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Michelangelo's Pieta has been interpreted to refer to both the Nativity and the Passion. Our Lady, depicted as a young mother holding the infant child, yet foreshadowing the crucified One in her arms.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Luke talks of ‘salvation’ in the nativity narrative without mentioning the cross – see the benedicus and the visitation.

It would seem that the incarnation, by itself, brings salvation.

That's quite a stretch.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Indeed.

And one could equally isolate any other aspect of Christ's life and ministry and say that it was salvific in and of itself.

The whole 'Christ event' is salvific, Jesus is in himself salvific as it were, 'he has become our salvation,' he is Saviour, he is Lord.

Which includes his atoning death, his resurrection and glorious ascension.

We can't pull it all apart and say, 'this bit is salvific but that isn't ...'

We are saved by Christ. The Christ who is Very God of Very God, the first-born of all Creation who proceeds from the Father from eternity, who was born of a virgin and who lived among us, full of grace and truth, who suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified dead and buried, who rose again and appeared to his disciples and was taken up in glory. Who will return to judge the living and the dead and of the increase of whose government and peace there will be no end.

Who, 'for us men and our salvation ...'

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Luke talks of ‘salvation’ in the nativity narrative without mentioning the cross – see the benedicus and the visitation.

It would seem that the incarnation, by itself, brings salvation.

How?
By uniting God and Man in one person, reconciling them in his body? To me that person then needs to go through death, Resurrection and Ascension to make the reconciliation part of the Godhead in Eternity, but the Incarnation is key.

[ 24. December 2017, 08:05: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Luke talks of ‘salvation’ in the nativity narrative without mentioning the cross – see the benedicus and the visitation.

It would seem that the incarnation, by itself, brings salvation.

How?
By uniting God and Man in one person, reconciling them in his body? To me that person then needs to go through death, Resurrection and Ascension to make the reconciliation part of the Godhead in Eternity, but the Incarnation is key.
Well, God had to be Incarnate in order to die of course.
If there was no need for the cross he could have just turned up, been here, taught a few unoriginal things and lived to a ripe old age.

I'm wondering how he would have shown he was unique?
Others have claimed to be God incarnate too - what marks them out different however is the absence of nailprints in their hands and the evidence of an empty tomb.

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Indeed.

And one could equally isolate any other aspect of Christ's life and ministry and say that it was salvific in and of itself.

The whole 'Christ event' is salvific, Jesus is in himself salvific as it were, 'he has become our salvation,' he is Saviour, he is Lord.

Which includes his atoning death, his resurrection and glorious ascension.

We can't pull it all apart and say, 'this bit is salvific but that isn't ...'

We are saved by Christ. The Christ who is Very God of Very God, the first-born of all Creation who proceeds from the Father from eternity, who was born of a virgin and who lived among us, full of grace and truth, who suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified dead and buried, who rose again and appeared to his disciples and was taken up in glory. Who will return to judge the living and the dead and of the increase of whose government and peace there will be no end.

Who, 'for us men and our salvation ...'

We're saved anyway, but the full incarnation from conception to resurrection is the only evidence.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
'Taught a few unoriginal things?'

Original or unoriginal, why did he need to teach anything?

Why not simply have the Romans or Herod's soldiers execute him as soon as he born?

I agree with you, on the nail-scars and the spear-wound, the 'sacred head sore wounded' and the empty tomb, of course ...

But let's not fast-forward over everything else to freeze-frame on Calvary without paying due attention to everything else that happened before and after ...

Of course the Cross is the crux of it
... but it's not the Cross in isolation.

I know you aren't saying it is, I'm simply saying why I find certain presentations of these things inappropriate - or less appropriate - at Christmas.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Luke talks of ‘salvation’ in the nativity narrative without mentioning the cross – see the benedicus and the visitation.

It would seem that the incarnation, by itself, brings salvation.

That's quite a stretch.
Not for Simeon in Luke 2 who said he had seen salvation and, presumably, died befire the crucifixion.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Luke talks of ‘salvation’ in the nativity narrative without mentioning the cross – see the benedicus and the visitation.

It would seem that the incarnation, by itself, brings salvation.

How?
By uniting God and Man in one person, reconciling them in his body? To me that person then needs to go through death, Resurrection and Ascension to make the reconciliation part of the Godhead in Eternity, but the Incarnation is key.
Well, God had to be Incarnate in order to die of course.
If there was no need for the cross he could have just turned up, been here, taught a few unoriginal things and lived to a ripe old age.

I'm wondering how he would have shown he was unique?
Others have claimed to be God incarnate too - what marks them out different however is the absence of nailprints in their hands and the evidence of an empty tomb.

Well, I did mention Resurrection and Ascension, but, you know, read what you want me have written if you want. Past caring.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Luke talks of ‘salvation’ in the nativity narrative without mentioning the cross – see the benedicus and the visitation.

It would seem that the incarnation, by itself, brings salvation.

That's quite a stretch.
Not for Simeon in Luke 2 who said he had seen salvation and, presumably, died befire the crucifixion.
That’s because he had seen Jesus, who—through his incarnation, life, death, resurrection and ascension—was and is salvation. Not by the incarnation alone, but by the totality of the “Jesus event.” Simeon is essentially saying “at last, salvation [Jesus] has arrived. I can die at peace.”

[ 24. December 2017, 16:22: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116

 - Posted      Profile for Mudfrog   Email Mudfrog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Of course the Cross is the crux of it
... but it's not the Cross in isolation.

I know you aren't saying it is,

Why keep saying it then?

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Luke talks of ‘salvation’ in the nativity narrative without mentioning the cross – see the benedicus and the visitation.

It would seem that the incarnation, by itself, brings salvation.

That's quite a stretch.
Not for Simeon in Luke 2 who said he had seen salvation and, presumably, died befire the crucifixion.
That’s because he had seen Jesus, who—through his incarnation, life, death, resurrection and ascension—was and is salvation. Not by the incarnation alone, but by the totality of the “Jesus event.” Simeon is essentially saying “at last, salvation [Jesus] has arrived. I can die at peace.”
So, did Simeon know that Saviour, as said on His tin, was going to be crucified?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Of course the Cross is the crux of it
... but it's not the Cross in isolation.

I know you aren't saying it is,

Why keep saying it then?
Things like "Well, God had to be Incarnate in order to die of course" in response to granting the Inacarnation significance in and of itself can give the impression that the idea's just bubbling under the surface, I think.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Martin, I don’t know. Luke—whom leo is relying on here—says that Jesus told his companions on the road to Emmaus that everything that had happened in Jerusalem in the previous days was all in the prophets. And Simeon told Mary that a sword would pierce her soul “also.”

Does it matter exactly what Simeon knew, other than that the child Jesus he saw in the Temple was God’s promised salvation?

[ 24. December 2017, 16:48: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well said Nick. Thank you. Simeon knew. I should have known that. The pendulum swings to the 'conservative'!

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Of course the Cross is the crux of it
... but it's not the Cross in isolation.

I know you aren't saying it is,

Why keep saying it then?
Things like "Well, God had to be Incarnate in order to die of course" in response to granting the Inacarnation significance in and of itself can give the impression that the idea's just bubbling under the surface, I think.
That and the somewhat censorious tone that accompanies such pronouncements, as well as an apparent (rather than actual) diminishing of the moral teachings - 'nothing original' - in order to cut to the chase and get to the Calvary bits ...

I know Mudfrog and the Salvation Army well enough, I think, to recognise that they aren't as reductionist as that, but as Karl says, there is an impression that this may be bubbling away not far below the surface ...

Hence my repetitions.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
That’s because he had seen Jesus, who—through his incarnation, life, death, resurrection and ascension—was and is salvation. Not by the incarnation alone, but by the totality of the “Jesus event.” Simeon is essentially saying “at last, salvation [Jesus] has arrived. I can die at peace.”

Definitely this.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools