homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Singing Our Doubts? (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Singing Our Doubts?
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I agree with that there are many traditional hymns that don't dismiss the anxieties and failures that we have. 'Hark, My Soul! It Is The Lord' comes to mind. In this hymn William Cowper talks about having a weak and faint love for God, and longing to have more.

Cowper wrote much darker stuff than this, of course, as a result of his Calvinist misgivings, eg:-

No voice divine the storm allay'd,
No light propitious shone;
When, snatch'd from all effectual aid,
We perish'd, each alone:
But I beneath a rougher sea,
And whelm'd in deeper gulfs than he.

(Tangent: I take a guilty delight in Cowper's "There is a fountain filled with blood/Drawn from Emmanuel's veins,/And sinners plunged beneath that flood/Lose all their guilty stains" because it annoys smartypants liberals so much. Close Tangent).

Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
John Bell is mentioned above, but I don't think he's terribly popular in British churches these days. Maybe the URC sings a lot of his stuff?

John Bell, a Church of Scotland minister and former convener of the General Assembly's Panel on Worship, was convener and music editor of the Kirk's current hymnal (2005). I'll leave it to others more knowledgeable than I to speak to the popularity of his hymns in Britain generally and in Scotland specifically. Many of his hymns are typically included in American mainline Protestant and Catholic hymnals and hymnal supplements, and some—“The Summons” and “We Cannot Measure How You Heal" come to mind—are heard fairly often.

But I, at least, mentioned John Bell not as “popular," but in response this that you posted:
quote:
IME neither the updating of old hymns nor the practice of writing completely new words to old tunes is about incorporating doubt - when it comes to mainstream churches. The focus is normally on gender inclusivity, social justice, toning down references to divine anger, or removing warrish Christian language.
In other words, he was offered as an example of a contemporary hymn writer who has incorporated doubt into his writings. There are others who have as well. I’d submit that the focus of many new hymns is much broader than you seem to think.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It's difficult sometimes to say what makes a hymn work or not work. I'm afraid that whatever his personal strengths and qualities, everything I personally have encountered written by the late Fred Kaan, I've found cringeworthy.

I like "Out of Deep, Unordered Water." But yes, I know exactly what you mean. I feel the same way about some of his other hymns, as well as the hymns of some other popular contemporary hymn writers who shall remain unnamed. There are some lines in particular that really make me cringe.

quote:
But I think one thing that does make a difference is whether the hymn was written to express a strong spiritual emotion that the writer really felt in his or her guts, or whether it was written because he or she thought, 'wouldn't it be nice if we could have something people could sing about xxxxx ' whether xxxxx is living on an estate, collecting money for Shelter, total depravity, or uncertainties about the Virgin Birth.
I agree. As an occasional hymn writer myself, I find that starting from a “wouldn't it be nice to have a hymn about . . ." rarely turns out well. The hymn needs to come from somewhere within; for me, it often starts with a verse of Scripture that gets stuck in my head and won’t let go.

The current hymnal of the Presbyterian Church (USA) has a lovely hymn in it dealing with Alzheimer’s and dementia. The writer wrote it out of response to a friend's experiences with her mother.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
[John Bell] was offered as an example of a contemporary hymn writer who has incorporated doubt into his writings. There are others who have as well. I’d submit that the focus of many new hymns is much broader than you seem to think.

I've already said I appreciate the mention of John Bell. I was simply suggesting that his hymns on doubt aren't necessarily well-known in all MOTR churches. Perhaps that reflects my ignorance - but also the ignorance of the very ordinary MOTR city churches (CofE and Methodist) that I attend!

It's possible that in regions or districts with more prosperous and better attended MOTR churches than the ones I know there might be more adventurousness in the choice of new hymns. At any rate, this has been true with regard to middle class evangelical churches and their insatiable desire for new worship songs.

Interestingly, British Methodism has built a self-image around 'singing the faith'. This does suggest that doubt may be a problematic topic for Methodist hymnody - even though Methodists are as doubtful a group as any other MOTR Christians in the country.

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Prosperous or otherwise, and at the risk of a tangent, I suspect most churches - MoTR, evangelical, whatever-else - tend to stick with what they feel comfortable with in terms of hymnody.

What may look from the outside to be an insatiable desire for new material within the charismatic evangelical arena is often far from the case.

Appearances can be deceptive.

My experience of charismatic evangelicalism is that they stick with the same handful of hymns/worship songs until they've sung the stuffing out of them and then they gradually adopt a few more latest, greatest hits which they thing sing the stuffing out of ...

Back in the day, the new songs tended to spill out of or be popularised by the big summer rallies and Bible Weeks and you could always tell who had been where ...

I suspect there're still just a handful of places and conventions that develop and disseminate this material which then gets onto the circuit as it were and is adopted by people/churches in concentric circles around those hot-spots.

On another tangent, re Kaplan's tangent ...

I'm not sure what's worse, smug self-satisfied smarty-pants liberals or smug, self-righteous, self-satisfied think-they're-smarty-pants evangelicals ...

[Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure what's worse, smug self-satisfied smarty-pants liberals or smug, self-righteous, self-satisfied think-they're-smarty-pants evangelicals ...

Shed your indecisiveness.

It's indubitably the former.

The latter don't exist.

Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Don't be so tribal.

I've met plenty of the latter as well as plenty of the former.

Evangelicalism may have 'come of age' but plenty of evangelicals still act as if they have something to prove ...

[Biased] [Razz]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
May I ask a serious question. What is doubt? The thing is I here in this thread seem to associate it strongly with the negative experience of faith. The tradition within the URC (and wider Reformed) which is cited here is slightly different to that. In many ways it is a giving voice to fact that our understanding of God is partial. Now we see in a mirror dimly, then we shall see face to face. It can lead as much to wonder as to a voicing of uncertainty.

Thanks

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That sounds very Anglican to me, Jengie ...

The URC and wider Reformed traditions doni have a monopoly on that.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if RCs and Orthodox would say the same.

But I can see what you're getting at from the comments on this thread.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am not making a case for the tradition being Reformed only for those of the tradition cited here having a different emphasis to what may be turned doubt than what appears to be assumed here.

It is also worth saying that I am not really talking of the unknowableness of God*, but an acknowledgement of the encultured nature of our knowledge and subsequent partiality. You therefore get Brian Wrens'

quote:
half-free, half-bound by inner chains,
by social forces swept along,
by powers and systems close confined,
yet seeking hope for humankind

the positive slant give by the paraphrase of John Robinson to the Pilgrim Fathers

quote:
We limit not the truth of God
To our poor reach of mind,
By notions of our day and sect,
Crude, partial and confined.
Now let a new and better hope
Within our hearts be stirred:
The Lord hath yet more light and truth
To break forth from His Word.

Very similar and yet slightly different in emphasis.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
plenty of evangelicals still act as if they have something to prove ...

No, no, you're thinking of ex-evangelicals.

You know, gung-ho penty types who get involved with online sites, start flirting with other theological and ecclesiological traditions, and become obsessive about flaunting their ex-evangelical credentials.

I can't begin to conceive how you managed to confuse the two!

Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

 - Posted      Profile for Dafyd   Email Dafyd   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
John Bell is mentioned above, but I don't think he's terribly popular in British churches these days. Maybe the URC sings a lot of his stuff?

Try the Church of Scotland. I personally think most of his hymns feel like theology spoiled by being squeezed into metre and rhyme and set to music. There are the words and there's the music, but they don't interact: they sit side by side like two strangers on the Clockwork Orange. (That's the Glasgow Tube.)

(*) The Glasgow tube.

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

 - Posted      Profile for Dafyd   Email Dafyd   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
They're chanted. I think that's different. You need to do less with your voice.

A) Chanting is a form of singing.
B) As many Reformed and Presbyterian worshippers can attest, metrical psalms are not chanted.

I know technically speaking chanting is singing. That said, I think there's a difference between a form of music that is there to add a backing to the words so that they can be recited communally (as in Anglican chant) and a form of music that has its own emotional effect that is there to blend with the words' emotional effect. And I don't think that you do the second communally for doubting. (Nor for rational argument or similar mental pastimes.)
Just because metrical psalms have been set to music doesn't mean that all of them should have been. The Old 100th, yes. O Worship the King, Hail to the Lord's Anointed, yes (not technically metrical psalms, I know). But I think most metrical psalms have not made it into the hymnody of congregations for which metrical psalms are not obligatory.

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ha ha ha ... @Kaplan.

We all have to grow up sometime.

'When I was a child ...'

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dafyd, I can see where you are coming from, but I don't agree.

At its simplest, chant is a way of singing prose which isn't in metre and doesn't fit a time signature. Most people find that difficult. It's particularly difficult to do congregationally because each person has to guess how to fit the words to the chant, and to make the same guess. The strength is that the translation can be more accurate, but the price is that they are difficult to sing communally.

Setting psalms to metre is a way of making them easier to sing. The metres are usually fairly straightforward and designed so people can guess what the tune is going to do next and how long the syllables are likely to be. That is the strength. The weakness is that the thoughts have to be in blocks of approximately the same length irrespective of how long they are in the originally and how easy they are to translate.

Both chant and metrical tunes are capable of having, or not having, their own emotional effect independently of the words, but in both cases, the more pronounced this is, often the more difficult it is to sing - as say with anthems.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Dafyd, I can see where you are coming from, but I don't agree.

At its simplest, chant is a way of singing prose which isn't in metre and doesn't fit a time signature. Most people find that difficult. It's particularly difficult to do congregationally because each person has to guess how to fit the words to the chant, and to make the same guess.

Kof Russian Orthodox worship music kof kof kof

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Serious question, Mousethief ... How easy is it for a congregational to chant Russian Orthodox music?

I like Orthodox chant but it sounds like you have to be taught it properly -like all choral music.

It's not the sort of thing you can pick up on a single hearing like a modern worship song, say...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Mousethief, I thought that in the Russian Church, a choir sings, rather than that the congregation sings together.

But, I accept that I'm really speaking from the conventions of singing in English, to the sort of music conventional English speakers are likely to be able to sing to. I can't speak for the metre of Hebrew or the music to which it was sung - and nor for that matter for the equivalent in koine Greek.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Just because metrical psalms have been set to music doesn't mean that all of them should have been. The Old 100th, yes. O Worship the King, Hail to the Lord's Anointed, yes (not technically metrical psalms, I know). But I think most metrical psalms have not made it into the hymnody of congregations for which metrical psalms are not obligatory.

Accurate or not, this is irrelevant to the point I was making. You made a blanket statement that psalms are chanted, not sung:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I don't know. Psalms are sung.

They're chanted. I think that's different.
I provided an example of psalms that are sung, not chanted, to counter your blanket statement.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Mousethief, I thought that in the Russian Church, a choir sings, rather than that the congregation sings together.

That is often the case, but not universally. It is not the case in my home parish, which is English-speaking but of Russian heritage. Virtually all the music is communally sung. The recurring hymns and hymn types have a set of melodies (8 "tones" they are called, although there are different sets of 8 -- "Kievan" and "Serbian" and so forth, and different melodies in each tone for the various hymns, thus a kievan 8th tone for praises, a Serbian 4th tone for kontakion -- it's not as confusing as it sounds once you're used to it, after a year or two) that over time the people come to know. You can slot different words, with different line lengths, into the melodies (none of them are metrical) and the congo can sing them with little difficulty.

Here is an example of Kievan tone 7. Of course, the congo, if singing along, is generally going to only sing the soprano line, not all the parts.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The video isn't available for some reason Mousethief.

The only Orthodox services I've attended where there's been any semblance of congregational singing have been Antiochian ones, although here in the UK they tend to use Russian melodies.

Mind you, other than the Poles, Catholics here arent noted for the quality of their congregational singing either.

You do hear people joining in with the Cherubic Hymn and the refrain 'Receive the body of Christ ...' or the 'As many as have been baptised into Christ,by put on Christ, alleluia!' when that is sung.

But not much else.

Our nearest Orthodox parish had a trained Anglican cathedral chorister as a Reader but he's moved away, so goodness knows how they are managing without him ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The video isn't available for some reason Mousethief.

Hmmmm. It loaded fine for me.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I think most metrical psalms have not made it into the hymnody of congregations for which metrical psalms are not obligatory.

I attended the CofS quite regularly during the mid-1970s, and a clear distinction was made between Hymns and Metrical Psalms. In those days they often came from two separate books.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

 - Posted      Profile for Dafyd   Email Dafyd   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
You made a blanket statement that psalms are chanted, not sung:

I did indeed due to hasty posting fail to accurately characterise the distinction I was grasping after (assuming I'm right to think it important).

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The video isn't available for some reason Mousethief.

Hmmmm. It loaded fine for me.
No, won't work for me either. May be something to do with which country you're in.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I think most metrical psalms have not made it into the hymnody of congregations for which metrical psalms are not obligatory.

I attended the CofS quite regularly during the mid-1970s, and a clear distinction was made between Hymns and Metrical Psalms. In those days they often came from two separate books.
In the last PC(USA) hymnal they were in a separate section, after the liturgical year section. (The section was mostly metrical psalms, though some other styles were mixed in.) In the current hymnal they don’t have their own section but are interspersed throughout, but always denoted as psalms, such as “I to the Hills Will Lift My Eyes (Psalm 121).”

A surprising number of the metrical psalms are new versions, dating from the last few decades. While their use is not obligatory, it has seemed that there has been a movement to reclaim them as a part of our heritage.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The video isn't available for some reason Mousethief.

Hmmmm. It loaded fine for me.
No, won't work for me either. May be something to do with which country you're in.
Perhaps. Come for a visit, and we'll watch it together.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:

A) Chanting is a form of singing.
B) As many Reformed and Presbyterian worshippers can attest, metrical psalms are not chanted.

I know technically speaking chanting is singing. That said, I think there's a difference between a form of music that is there to add a backing to the words so that they can be recited communally (as in Anglican chant) and a form of music that has its own emotional effect that is there to blend with the words' emotional effect.
This is not true of metrical psalms sorry. The exact point of metrical psalms is that the hymn tunes can be used interchangeably. I have lost count of the number of times I have stated this on the ship.

This was to such an extent that Church Hymnary revised during the psalms section of the music edition the pages were divide in two width wise with the top half containing music and the bottom half the words.

It also resulted in a very localised tradition around which psalm went to which tune which can catch people out to today.

Jengie

[repaired coding fail]

[ 30. December 2017, 06:45: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yuck, coding fail, sorry.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As some Shipmates may have picked up, I'm a bit of a fan of metrical psalms. I think they're a better practical solution for 'how to sing psalms' than the tuneless metre-less groaning of 50 years ago.

The CofE took a bad wrong turn when, about 160 years ago, the Oxford Movement insisted that everybody chant because it's more cultured. I can't even blame Dearmer and the Parson's Handbook, because although I'm sure he lauded the change, it had happened before his time.

It's produced the present state of affairs. Although the service books and lectionaries prescribe the inclusion of at least one psalm, most parishes are ignoring that instruction because they don't realise there's an alternative to chanting.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I suspect most churches - MoTR, evangelical, whatever-else - tend to stick with what they feel comfortable with in terms of hymnody.

What may look from the outside to be an insatiable desire for new material within the charismatic evangelical arena is often far from the case.

Appearances can be deceptive.

I agree that most churches stick closely to their musical traditions, but I made my comments in the light of accusations that I was under-informed about modern hymnody.

With regards to music and middle class MOTR churches, it does seem pretty obvious that in Methodism at least the successful middle class churches are the ones most likely to to become more adventurous in terms of worship choices. The inclusion of more modern music would be a part of that.

Over the next few decades it'll be interesting to see if the ongoing retreat of Christianity in Britain will lead to many more hymns and worship songs that refer openly to the inadequacies and failures of our religious communities. And will those songs be sung be the churches that are most beset by problems? I'm not hugely convinced, the success of John Bell notwithstanding.

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
[John Bell] was offered as an example of a contemporary hymn writer who has incorporated doubt into his writings. There are others who have as well. I’d submit that the focus of many new hymns is much broader than you seem to think.

I've already said I appreciate the mention of John Bell. I was simply suggesting that his hymns on doubt aren't necessarily well-known in all MOTR churches. Perhaps that reflects my ignorance - but also the ignorance of the very ordinary MOTR city churches (CofE and Methodist) that I attend!

It's possible that in regions or districts with more prosperous and better attended MOTR churches than the ones I know there might be more adventurousness in the choice of new hymns. At any rate, this has been true with regard to middle class evangelical churches and their insatiable desire for new worship songs.

We sing a lot of his stuff but I am always wondering what he meant by 'Amused in someone's kitchen'.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I do think there is a link with social class and with the material prosperity of individual congregations and the kind of hymnody they adopt ...

Might be some material there for a PhD thesis somewhere or other ...

I'm not convinced that we'll see more hymnody about declension and the sea of faith being on the ebb etc

I've known places that are shadows of their former selves in terms of numbers and they still sing the up-beat stuff ... even using backing tracks that give the impression of greater numbers. Yes, I've seen that done ...

[Ultra confused]

As far as MoTR churches go, I can see those that are in terminal decline simply going quietly.

There may be some that 'rage, rage against the dying of the light' but not many and certainly not enough to create a hymnody movement ...

But I might be wrong. We could see the hymnal / choral equivalents of Lamentations.

I suspect that most places would simply plunder the back-catalogue - whether that be traditional hymnody and liturgy or contemporary worship songs.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555

 - Posted      Profile for wild haggis         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
John Bell is popular in churches - perhaps not among Anglicans, but you can find his and Graham Maule's hymns in the URC hymnbook, Baptist Praise and Worship, Church of Scotland (4) hymn book, Methodist etc. and if you listen to "Songs of Praise" on telly you will often catch Iona hymns.

You may have sung some of them without knowing from whence they came. Iona hymns are usually based on simple tunes, often folk (causes a problem for those of us who know and sing the original folk songs - we need to keep alert or we branch into the lyrics of the original folk song!) with up to date words that stem from the reality of living today, not slushy Victorian words or unintelligible language.

I know there are a number of hymns I refuse to sing or miss the words out. Some modern songs are awful - you don't want to read my music copies. I'm inclined to write comments - some very rude!

"Away in a Manger" is one carol I won't sing - what a load of rubbish.Jesus the baby didn't "no crying he made"! Have you ever seen a baby that doesn't cry- and how would we know anyway. He doesn't live up in the sky looking down on us. As to 3 kings. There weren't 3! There were three gifts but we don't know how many wise men there were (a gift for infant teachers - we can have a whole class of wise people!). Nowhere does the Bible say they were kings - they were wise men. So that's another one I won't sing. The shepherds didn't see a star, they saw the angels and angels don't have lumping great wings; cherubim and seraphim do in the Bible but not angels. No wonder people don't believe the Christmas story. We have made it into a domesticated fairy tale with nice little sheep and inn keepers.

I won't go on. Folk carols have their place in a folk club or pub but in church we should be aiming at telling the Bible story as far as we know it from the Bible.

I think probably the most liberal of the churches in Britain is the URC. But then that depends what you mean by liberal. If a church doesn't believe at all in God then I can't see how it can be a church - it is a gathering (which may be very valid and good, like the Atheistic Assemblies around the country). Many Quaker gatherings are now non-theist. Some Unitarians are and some aren't.

Faith by definition implies and element of doubt. If we new everything then surely there would be no need for faith?

--------------------
wild haggis

Posts: 166 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
So those carols aren't 'accurate'? So what?

Nobody thinks about the words anyway ...

Anyhow (cough, cough) on John Bell hymns ... There are a few Anglicans I know who'd like to sing more of them and they're probably a lot better for you than a diet of happy-clappy worship songs ...

I can't say I've ever been that impressed by the ones I've heard sung on Songs of Praise or in URC churches but there're a lot worse hymns and choruses around.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The URC would not use John Bell to sing our doubts, not when we have our home grown Brian Wren with songs like I have no bucket. It's first line sounds like a horrible hymn joke title but actually comes from Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan Women at the well.

Jengie

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There is a hymn in "Rejoice & Sing" which begins: "BEYOND THE MIST AND DOUBT OF THIS UNCERTAIN DAY / I TRUST IN THINE ETERNAL NAME". I can't say more as it's copyright, it was written by a Methodist though and I've used it in worship several times.


There is also "Twixt gleams of joy and clouds of doubt our feelings come and go; Our daily state is tossed about in ceaseless ebb and flow" which is older - I don't know it at all.

Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

 - Posted      Profile for Chorister   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
'Through the Night of Doubt and Sorrow' is a bolstering-up sort of hymn, where we stand together in solidarity with our fellow pilgrims ('brother clasps the hand of brother'), helping each other through. Although the outcome of this support is optimistic hope and expectation, it does not duck the fact that the road ahead is far from easy. I like that kind of gritty realism.

--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
"When, O God, our faith is tested" is a very honest hymn by Fred Kaan (yes, I've used it).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

 - Posted      Profile for Dafyd   Email Dafyd   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Iona hymns are usually based on simple tunes with up to date words that stem from the reality of living today, not slushy Victorian words or unintelligible language.

Iona hymns are John Bell's sermon notes stretched out upon the rack of metre and rhyme and then fitted to an old tune in a way that serves neither the tune nor John Bell's sermon notes.
If you are familiar with the themes of John Bell's preaching, and he is a great preacher, then you will find the words intelligible. Otherwise, they're a stream of Iona-jargon and allusions.

Some Victorian hymns are slushy. Nine tenths of everything is bad. Some Victorian hymns are not.

quote:
"Away in a Manger" is one carol I won't sing - what a load of rubbish.Jesus the baby didn't "no crying he made"! Have you ever seen a baby that doesn't cry-
The Daflings did not immediately start crying every time they woke up. A baby is perfectly capable of waking up and just being at least for a little while.

I don't much like Away in the Manger but complaining about the factual accuracy is beside the point.

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Maybe AiaM is meant not to be historical but aspirational. As so many other hymns. It's funny seeing people who have no problem at all interpreting the scriptures allegorically all of a sudden becoming wooden literalists when discussing Christmas carols.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the 19th c. hymns 'Just as I am', which talks about being 'tossed about, with many a conflict, many a doubt', and 'Out of my bondage, sorrow, and night', which focuses on the writer's general psychological distress.

Such hymns are too emotional for the modern mainstream church environment. IMO their very personal emphasis on spiritual and psychological wretchedness is too theologically problematic for churches that have cultivated a reasonable and rational self-image. And practically speaking, these churches don't expect to have much contact with people who have such a fraught spiritual life.

Then there's the question of good taste. The soppiest of 19th c. hymns simply aren't going to pass the test, and for some churches this matters.

[ 31. December 2017, 11:41: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Maybe AiaM is meant not to be historical but aspirational. As so many other hymns. It's funny seeing people who have no problem at all interpreting the scriptures allegorically all of a sudden becoming wooden literalists when discussing Christmas carols.

This.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Iona hymns are usually based on simple tunes with up to date words that stem from the reality of living today, not slushy Victorian words or unintelligible language.

Iona hymns are John Bell's sermon notes stretched out upon the rack of metre and rhyme and then fitted to an old tune in a way that serves neither the tune nor John Bell's sermon notes.
If you are familiar with the themes of John Bell's preaching, and he is a great preacher, then you will find the words intelligible. Otherwise, they're a stream of Iona-jargon and allusions.

Some Victorian hymns are slushy. Nine tenths of everything is bad. Some Victorian hymns are not.

quote:
"Away in a Manger" is one carol I won't sing - what a load of rubbish.Jesus the baby didn't "no crying he made"! Have you ever seen a baby that doesn't cry-
The Daflings did not immediately start crying every time they woke up. A baby is perfectly capable of waking up and just being at least for a little while.

I don't much like Away in the Manger but complaining about the factual accuracy is beside the point.

And that.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools