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Source: (consider it) Thread: Dealing with bigots
mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I had a Lebanese neighbour who hated being called an Arab, although her first language was Arabic. She used to say that she was a Christian! She was a nice lady.

I have known some lovely Christian Palestinians (or Palestinian Christians). Although one in particular was a holy terror if you put something away in the wrong place in *HER* parish kitchen. But that's old babas/yia-yias/etc. in any Orthodox jurisdiction!

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Kwesi
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I had a Lebanese neighbour who hated being called an Arab, although her first language was Arabic. She used to say that she was a Christian! She was a nice lady.

Lebanon is an interesting case because its governing system is structured to guarantee representation to differing religious (ethnic) groups. Christians 64 (divided between Maronites (34), Eastern Orthodox (14), Melkite Catholics (8), Armenian Orthodox (5), Armenian Catholic (1), Protestant (1), Other Christian minorities (1)), and Muslims 64 (divided between Sunni (27), Shi’ite (27), Alawite (2), and Druze (8)) share equally the seats in the parliament. There is, however, a common electoral roll, so that in a constituency where the candidates are Christian Maronites other Christians and Muslims have a right to vote based on universal suffrage. The president is elected by the parliament and by convention is a Maronite Christian whilst the prime minister is Muslim. The interests of the various religious groups are recognised in the distribution of jobs in the public sector. Thus, your charming neighbour had an interest in asserting her ethnic identity.
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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
When would you like to go back to, MT, in terms of righting wrongs about land seizures? 1940, to give a round figure? Think about the Greeks expelled from Turkey at the time of the Cyprus Crisis. A friend's husband's family come from there on his mother's side. Another friend, a Gulanist as it happens, emigrated from Turkish Cyprus.

If Palestinians and Israelis continue to fight about questions of who is historically entitled to own Palestine, it will delay peace, as it does right now to the fault of both sides and the agony of their peoples. Peace requires a focus on what the parties have in common, of how they are going to live together in the future and yes the difficult question of who gets what. Once peace is achieved, it will then I hope be time to look at the competing truths, and to seek justice and reconciliation. Without peace I fear that the Palestinians will be ground into nothing.

Even truth is yet to happen in my country. Hell, I was taught a different truth about my country's beginnings as a child than the one beginning to emerge now. Stolen land is the land beneath my feet. What can I do? I choose to try and discover what happened as a first step. The scholarship is available I think (I'm dipping my toe at the moment), and I'm starting, at fifty fucking one, to pay attention to my past and my responsibility to contribute to justice within my capacity.

This is a worthy post. It reminds of Canadian comedian Mike McDonald's line that they will step on children and the homeless so as to punch it up.

Israel is justifiably concerned with its existence, with the avowed aim of Palestinian organizations including Hamas of eliminating it. Starters for common ground would be that both groups agree the other has a right to exist. We also need Saudi Arabia and Iran at least to agree to the existence of Israel and for both to stop funding extremism, terror and violence.

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Kwesi
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quote:
No Prophet: Israel is justifiably concerned with its existence, with the avowed aim of Palestinian organizations including Hamas of eliminating it.

I find this statement just about right in the sense that states are justified in resisting existential threats, and that the actions taken by Israel are rational given its nature, national objectives and geo-political situation. I could say the same about North Korea, Assad’s Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey’s treatment of the Kurds, Aung San Suu Kyi’s ethnic cleansing of the Rohingya, and China’s policy towards Tibet. I don’t, however, given my values, act as cheerleader and apologist for them.
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quetzalcoatl
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But then the Palestinians have faced an existential threat - and have lost. They are now atomized and humiliated. I don't know what I would do, if I was a Palestinian living there. You can give in, and accept the status quo; you can go and live somewhere else; and you can fight back. I suppose it's the end of a dream.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But then the Palestinians have faced an existential threat - and have lost. They are now atomized and humiliated. I don't know what I would do, if I was a Palestinian living there. You can give in, and accept the status quo; you can go and live somewhere else; and you can fight back. I suppose it's the end of a dream.

You do what people do everywhere. My grandmother's family had a house in what became the Polish corridor before WW1. So they moved. My grandfather's family had a farm in what was traded back and forth between France and Germany between 1870 and 1918, So they moved. (All my French relatives died in WW1, almost all the German ones in WW2, with a decimation down to 2 families in 1870). Having your home destroyed, your land taken, losing it all and moving on - it's the story of humanity. Sometimes you conquer new lands, sometimes you just get out to somewhere safe.

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\_(ツ)_/

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quetzalcoatl
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It's a nice balance, then. Israel is 'justifiably concerned with its existence', and the Palestinians are fucked. "Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing".

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Mudfrog
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For a number of years the Palestinian people of the west bank were allowed to be Jordanians until the Jordanians withdrew that status and left the Palestinians stateless and high and dry.
Why?
The people of the West Bank were offered their own state in 1948.
why did they reject it?

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G.K. Chesterton

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's a nice balance, then. Israel is 'justifiably concerned with its existence', and the Palestinians are fucked. "Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing".

No. That's not it. The Palestinians have to accept that they will not regain territory from before, probably, 1967. They get a state which contains Gaza and the West Bank, and at least at the start of things, would be supervised because of the existential threat Israel realistically perceives. This is what the prior deals contained in essence.

Once that is in place, there may be further things to discuss, such as how Jordan might participate, given that it occupied the West Bank, is part of what the UK partitioned originally, and its people seem to be Palestinian.

It isn't acceptable to burden Israel with all the costs and responsibility. It exists, was created from a UN mandate. That, as you say the Palestinians are "fucked" is the responsibility of more than one country and one ethnicity.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's a nice balance, then. Israel is 'justifiably concerned with its existence', and the Palestinians are fucked. "Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing".

No. That's not it. The Palestinians have to accept that they will not regain territory from before, probably, 1967. They get a state which contains Gaza and the West Bank, and at least at the start of things, would be supervised because of the existential threat Israel realistically perceives. This is what the prior deals contained in essence.

Once that is in place, there may be further things to discuss, such as how Jordan might participate, given that it occupied the West Bank, is part of what the UK partitioned originally, and its people seem to be Palestinian.

It isn't acceptable to burden Israel with all the costs and responsibility. It exists, was created from a UN mandate. That, as you say the Palestinians are "fucked" is the responsibility of more than one country and one ethnicity.

It seems to me that the Jordanians tried to fuck the Israelis and now they are fucking the West Bank Palestinians.

If they'd accepted the 1948 UN plan we would be in a whole different place now.
However, they all decided to attack Israel on day 2 of the State of Israel being in existence, attacking again in 1967. I want to know why, and I also want to know why some shipmates seem to think that's OK

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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I'd like to know why you think we think that was OK.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Mudfrog
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Because there are a lot of comments about not taking the land 'from the Palestinians' with the implication that it should all be given back

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G.K. Chesterton

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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It was taken. People lived there who now cannot return. However, as I have already said, Israel is now a reality and it is neither prudent nor practical to try to change that. Our attention has been on its treatment of those who also have long standing ties to the land, especially in the light of the Naqba. Would you be OK with us claiming, on the basis that you think there is legitimate Jewish claim to the land, that you think the King David Hotel bombing was OK? Or the Deir Yassin massacre? At least credit us with the humanity you'd expect us to credit you.

[ 08. January 2018, 22:34: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Kwesi
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quote:
quetzalcoatl: But then the Palestinians have faced an existential threat - and have lost. They are now atomized and humiliated. I don't know what I would do, if I was a Palestinian living there.
Clearly the terms of political trade have not worked to the Palestinian’s advantage, though they retain a measure of international recognition through the United Nations. We cannot, however, predict the future with any certainty in a region of great instability. I suppose much depends on the usefulness of the Palestinian issue to the various powers in the area. Furthermore, there are a lot of Palestinians around there to keep the pot simmering, and a final solution to their existence and persistence is not available, though one can never been certain.

quote:
No Prophet: “They get a state which contains Gaza and the West Bank, and at least at the start of things, would be supervised because of the existential threat Israel realistically perceives. This is what the prior deals contained in essence.”

What you have described here doesn’t seem different from what exists now except that Israel will have the legal right to invade Gaza and the West Bank with impunity, legitimising the Bantustan status of non-Israeli Palestine. Or are you envisaging that the area will be supervised by the UN? One doubts that the Israelis would have confidence in such an arrangement, and conduct punitive expeditions whenever they felt it necessary.

In any case, I doubt whether either the Israelis or Palestinians want a settlement. The Israelis want to continue the expansion of their settlements, which they have done ever since 1948, and the Palestinians, whose increasing numbers and resentment will continue unabated, will wait that one chance they need. If it were otherwise both sides would have come to an accommodation a long time ago.

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Golden Key
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Here is Wikipedia's "Palestinians" article. It's very long; and it seems pretty thorough, from my skimming. Covers much of what we've been discussing.

And here is Wikipedia's "Palestinian Portal". The category menu is on the right-hand side.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
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simontoad
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I believe that the conditions under which the Palestinians in the West bank and Gaza live are because of the continuing conflict between Israel and the Arab and wider Muslim world. I think that as someone who feels a strong emotional connection to Israel and who wants Israel to survive and be at peace I must not look away from or minimise Palestinian suffering. I've done that in the past, turned my eyes and my heart away from it when I know its been there.

My understanding is that the 'security measures' imposed on the Palestinians are ostensibly to counter the second intifada and to blunt the effectiveness of current Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians. I think these security measures are also used to break the spirit of the Palestinians, and to improve Israel's position on the ground in future negotiations.

It might be possible to ease those security measures by public pressure on Israel, but as MT pointed out, Netenyahu has been in power for a long time now. I think many Israelis are voting out of fear, and that never helps liberals.

Peace is the beginning of the true solution, and will bring with it the opportunity for justice.

On antisemitism, I'm sorry I used the word. Its inflammatory. I should have let it pass. Its just that when I see the phrase stolen land, I think of myself and where I live first. I'm sure that you see the way my mind went from there.

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Human

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
For a number of years the Palestinian people of the west bank were allowed to be Jordanians until the Jordanians withdrew that status and left the Palestinians stateless and high and dry. Why? The people of the West Bank were offered their own state in 1948. why did they reject it?

Zionism was the last Crusade. The people of that region down the long centuries saw huge groups of Europeans swoop in and establish states and shed rivers of blood. The Zionists were just another huge group of Europeans. The Palestinians can hardly be blamed if they were skeptical that the "peace" they were being offered was genuine, and they are hardly to be blamed if they felt a little miffed that the British basically gave their homeland to the Zionists. And people like Ben Gurion were hardly doves.

Why did they reject it? Somebody comes in, takes your country, and then has the audacity to offer you a piece of it, as a goodwill gesture perhaps. Yeah. Why did they reject it.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The Palestinians have to accept that they will not regain territory from before, probably, 1967.

[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]

You really think Israel is willing to go back to the 1967 borders? Pour yourself another one.

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
However, they all decided to attack Israel on day 2 of the State of Israel being in existence, attacking again in 1967. I want to know why, and I also want to know why some shipmates seem to think that's OK

Why: Their land was given to somebody else. They tried to fight back and re-take their land. Why indeed. Why did France fight back in WW1? Why not just let the Germans invade, and accept a nice little partition somewhere out of the way? With the right to invade at any time, and continually meddle in their internal affairs, of course.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You really think Israel is willing to go back to the 1967 borders? Pour yourself another one.

No party that suggested going back to the 1967 borders would ever form a coalition again.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The people of that region down the long centuries saw huge groups of Europeans swoop in and establish states and shed rivers of blood.

The people of that region for four centuries prior to the Crusades saw huge groups of Muslims swoop in and establish states and shed rivers of blood.

From a Christian point of view the Crusades were indefensible, but they didn't happen ex nihilo.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The purpose of campaigning is to effect meaningful change; not to give oneself a hard-on at the thought of one's own self-righteousness.

The purpose of campaigning is, at the very least, to speak truth to power, whether nor not there is any chance of success.

There was no reason why such demonstrations could not have taken place in the case of sporting and athletic competitions involving nations like China which were as bad or worse than South Africa.

It must be said in favour of your very original and reductionist Erectile Theory of International Ethics, however, that it would certainly make cop outs a lot quicker and easier.

quote:
quote:
I'll note that two of the groups you mentioned are secular rather than Islamist.
Ostensibly
And your evidence for saying that is? [/QB][/QUOTE]

"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck..."

[ 09. January 2018, 02:06: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The people of that region down the long centuries saw huge groups of Europeans swoop in and establish states and shed rivers of blood.

The people of that region for four centuries prior to the Crusades saw huge groups of Muslims swoop in and establish states and shed rivers of blood.
I don't know about the rivers of blood thing. Their point was more to conquer than to kill. Which is why the "natives" around the eastern and southern Mediterranean rim are Muslim today.

It was the Christians who made it their religious duty to kill as many Muslims as possible. This of course has nothing to do with taking back the holy places. It was entirely about revenge and xenophobia.

quote:
From a Christian point of view the Crusades were indefensible, but they didn't happen ex nihilo.
Nobody would say so. Not sure how this is relevant, unless in a "they did it first" kind of justification. But you say the crusades are not defensible. So why bring up the Muslim wars of conquest at all, if not to defend the Crusades?

At any rate, the Muslims of Palestine circa 1848 through today were not the perpetrators of the Muslim conquests, but the victims. Well, the great-great-great-great-[insert more greats here]-grand descendants of the victims.

[ 09. January 2018, 02:26: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

You really think Israel is willing to go back to the 1967 borders? Pour yourself another one.


You're probably right. Shoddy Palestinian leadership had them walk away in the 1990s. Criminal really.

The only other option to Palestinian agreement to whatever terms they can currently get is perpetuation of what exists now. They really did blow it. Worse now than before.

Perhaps best is to wait until Iran and Saudi Arabia dump their dictatorships and are ready to force it. And they also make peace with each other. Which means they make peace with Israel. Which will take generations. Currently having a proxy war in Yemen.

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Rossweisse

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Why: Their land was given to somebody else. They tried to fight back and re-take their land. Why indeed. Why did France fight back in WW1? Why not just let the Germans invade, and accept a nice little partition somewhere out of the way? With the right to invade at any time, and continually meddle in their internal affairs, of course.

Essentially, the Israeli government just wants the Palestinians to Go Away, and they don't care how it happens. They have, as a matter of policy, undermined all the peace talks that we and others have brokered, because they only want a peace that doesn't involve Palestinians.

Meanwhile, life only gets harder for the Palestinians, between the theft of their land and the elimination of their rights. And the United States is subsidizing the whole thing.

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I'm not dead yet.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
You're probably right. Shoddy Palestinian leadership had them walk away in the 1990s. Criminal really.

I hope that helps you sleep. There's really no other reason to believe such lies.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
You're probably right. Shoddy Palestinian leadership had them walk away in the 1990s. Criminal really.

The only other option to Palestinian agreement to whatever terms they can currently get is perpetuation of what exists now. They really did blow it. Worse now than before.

Utter crap. The failings of Palestinian leadership pale into insignificance compared to the strength of the occupier.

The Oslo accords were agreed because the Palestinian leadership were led to believe it was a step towards a viable state. But the Israelis never saw it as being anything other than a bit of paper. It never stopped building settlements, it never stopped regular incursions into Palestinian controlled areas, it was never going to discuss a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders. The Palestinian leadership never rejected a deal in the 1990s because they were not offered anything.

quote:
Perhaps best is to wait until Iran and Saudi Arabia dump their dictatorships and are ready to force it. And they also make peace with each other. Which means they make peace with Israel. Which will take generations. Currently having a proxy war in Yemen.
Saudi has little to do with Palestine and Iran nothing. So this is never really going to make much difference.

The reality is that the creation of a Palestinian state is entirely in the power of the Israelis and nobody else. The last decades have shown that they're wanting to expand into land in the West Bank and that they believe that they will eventually win a war of attrition against the Palestinian population. They don't want a viable Palestinian state and so there will never be one.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It seems to me that the Jordanians tried to fuck the Israelis and now they are fucking the West Bank Palestinians.

Jordan has millions of Palestinians. The queen, wife of the current king, is Palestinian. If the late King Hussein of Jordan were still alive, and if Jimmy Carter were younger and healthier, something might be done. Both of them were deeply involved in Middle East negotiations, back in the day.

Interestingly, King Hussein changed the line of succession before he died, appointing his military son. From what I've seen on TV, he's very, very much a military man.

I've sometimes wondered what King Hussein knew, or suspected.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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np--

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: Perhaps best is to wait until Iran and Saudi Arabia dump their dictatorships and are ready to force it. And they also make peace with each other. Which means they make peace with Israel. Which will take generations. Currently having a proxy war in Yemen.
Errr...why in the world would peace between Saudi Arabia and Iran mean then making peace with Israel???

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
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Kwesi
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quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It seems to me that the Jordanians tried to fuck the Israelis and now they are fucking the West Bank Palestinians.

Wow! I didn't realise the SA had adopted the language of squaddies! I'd like to hear you preach on Judges!

Come to think of it, the promotion of miscegenation between the Palestinians and Jews might be the answer. As the book of Ruth indicates, it worked pretty well in biblical times.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Jordan has millions of Palestinians. The queen, wife of the current king, is Palestinian. If the late King Hussein of Jordan were still alive, and if Jimmy Carter were younger and healthier, something might be done. Both of them were deeply involved in Middle East negotiations, back in the day.

Jordan is in quite a difficult position in this. First they've signed a peace deal with Israel and have a normally functioning and open border crossing. But at the same time they've become a backdoor through which West Bank Palestinians can access the world via the irregular Allenby crossing.

Second it is true that quite a proportion of the Jordanian population have Palestinian connections or links to Palestine. Some Palestinians have full citizenship. But a large number are still classed as refugees and are living in refugee camps in Jordan - more than 2 million of them.

What with the influx of other refugees from Iraq and elsewhere, Jordan has rather a lot of issues to deal with. It is also the main door into Iraq and is dealing with its own terrorism attacks.

I don't think there is much truth to the idea that Jordan is screwing the Palestinians. Arguably they could have been more proactive in getting the 2 million refugees to have full citizenship and assimilate into the country to a greater extent. But it is still a better place (of course it is relative!) than being a refugee in Syria or Lebanon (or Iraq, where there are bizarrely still Palestinian refugee camps).

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arse

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It was taken. People lived there who now cannot return. However, as I have already said, Israel is now a reality and it is neither prudent nor practical to try to change that. Our attention has been on its treatment of those who also have long standing ties to the land, especially in the light of the Naqba. Would you be OK with us claiming, on the basis that you think there is legitimate Jewish claim to the land, that you think the King David Hotel bombing was OK? Or the Deir Yassin massacre? At least credit us with the humanity you'd expect us to credit you.

Who by?

It was 'taken' from the Ottoman Empire because they were on the losing side n WWI.
It was 'given' to the Brits.
The Brits then 'gave' it to the UN who decided there should be two states.
Israel agreed and the Arabs did not.
Israel went ahead with the UN plan declared the nation of Israel as decided upon, and the Arabs attacked.

Who took what?
The State of Israel is a UN recognised sovereign nation state.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It seems to me that the Jordanians tried to fuck the Israelis and now they are fucking the West Bank Palestinians.

Wow! I didn't realise the SA had adopted the language of squaddies! I'd like to hear you preach on Judges!

Come to think of it, the promotion of miscegenation between the Palestinians and Jews might be the answer. As the book of Ruth indicates, it worked pretty well in biblical times.

I was merely quoting the language used by the author of the post I was replying to.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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mr cheesy
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An oversimplification which seeks to diminish and dehumanise the unfavoured population that is living in Israel/Palestine.

They're not just Arab, they are a distinct population of self-described Palestinian-Arabs who have a connection to the land and a distinct culture.

In the same way that Europeans are distinct populations and nationalities, there are distinctions between Arabs. When abroad, although obviously there are language links between populations of Iraqis and Lebonese and Syrians and Palestinians, it is still a reality that the Palestinians see themselves as a distinct cultural group albeit within the wider Arab community.

It's like being in a group of English-speakers from predominently English-speaking countries. Americans and Australians and English and Scots and Welsh and New Zealanders can obviously communicate with each other and generally get along when they meet. But New Zealanders generally find more in common with other New Zealanders, Welsh with other Welsh.

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arse

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The purpose of campaigning is to effect meaningful change; not to give oneself a hard-on at the thought of one's own self-righteousness.

The purpose of campaigning is, at the very least, to speak truth to power, whether nor not there is any chance of success.

There was no reason why such demonstrations could not have taken place in the case of sporting and athletic competitions involving nations like China which were as bad or worse than South Africa.

The governments of Western Europe and North American were under little illusion about China. They did however routinely maintain that the South African government were basically decent people and the main opposition were terrorists with no legitimacy.

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I'll note that two of the groups you mentioned are secular rather than Islamist.
Ostensibly
And your evidence for saying that is?
"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck..."
And your evidence that it walks and talks like a duck is? That it looks like a duck?
I have not heard that Christian pilgrims to Bethlehem are routinely kidnapped and beheaded on the internet, which is what would happen if IS controlled the territory.

I don't think the PLO are any more morally innocent than Sinn Fein; but much as one dislikes Sinn Fein one couldn't accuse them of planning to set up a Catholic fascist theocracy.

It seems to me that out of misinformation or malice you are seeking to delegitimise any organisation that seeks to represent the interests of the Palestinians and that differs from the Israeli government on what those are, regardless of evidence. Maybe you'll provide evidence justifying lumping everything together, but I'm not holding my breath.

[ 09. January 2018, 10:08: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The people of that region down the long centuries saw huge groups of Europeans swoop in and establish states and shed rivers of blood.

The people of that region for four centuries prior to the Crusades saw huge groups of Muslims swoop in and establish states and shed rivers of blood.

From a Christian point of view the Crusades were indefensible, but they didn't happen ex nihilo.

I'm not sure actual history bears that out. Compare the initial Muslim capture of Jerusalem (the city surrendered after a bloodless siege and residents were treated fairly well) or Jerusalem's recapture by Muslims during the Second Crusade (after the Crusaders refused fairly generous terms they lost a brief siege and were still given fairly lenient terms, though not as generous as the initial offer) with the Christian capture of Jerusalem in the First Crusade (a brutal massacre of Muslims, Jews, and eastern Christians that was considered an atrocity even by those who considered the normal standards of Mediæval warfare to be acceptable).

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The people of that region down the long centuries saw huge groups of Europeans swoop in and establish states and shed rivers of blood.

The people of that region for four centuries prior to the Crusades saw huge groups of Muslims swoop in and establish states and shed rivers of blood.

From a Christian point of view the Crusades were indefensible, but they didn't happen ex nihilo.

I'm not sure actual history bears that out. Compare the initial Muslim capture of Jerusalem (the city surrendered after a bloodless siege and residents were treated fairly well) or Jerusalem's recapture by Muslims during the Second Crusade (after the Crusaders refused fairly generous terms they lost a brief siege and were still given fairly lenient terms, though not as generous as the initial offer) with the Christian capture of Jerusalem in the First Crusade (a brutal massacre of Muslims, Jews, and eastern Christians that was considered an atrocity even by those who considered the normal standards of Mediæval warfare to be acceptable).
You can cherry-pick instances in which Muslims behaved better than Christians, but it doesn't change the fact that during the four centuries prior to the Crusades, Muslims swept across the ME, north Africa and into Europe in wars of conquest which caused countless thousands of deaths.

In just the sack of Estakhr in Persia during the mid-seventh century, just to quote one example, they massacred 40,000 people.

I repeat that there is no Christian justification for the Crusades, but neither is there any justification for Muslims to complain about their ancestors receiving a taste of what they had been dishing out for over 450 years prior to 1295.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The purpose of campaigning is to effect meaningful change; not to give oneself a hard-on at the thought of one's own self-righteousness.

The purpose of campaigning is, at the very least, to speak truth to power, whether nor not there is any chance of success.

There was no reason why such demonstrations could not have taken place in the case of sporting and athletic competitions involving nations like China which were as bad or worse than South Africa.

The governments of Western Europe and North American were under little illusion about China. They did however routinely maintain that the South African government were basically decent people and the main opposition were terrorists with no legitimacy.
On the contrary, there was widespread, nauseatingly starry-eyed idealism about China after Nixon's visit in 1972 and Australian PM Whitlam's visit in 1973.

Earlier than that, I can remember at university during the late 60s seeing students who would have called themselves antifascist flaunting Mao badges and posters (I remember hearing a university Maoist group behind me in an anti-Vietnam demo chanting "Smash Soviet revisionism") - and this was just a few years after Mao had killed up to 45 million Chinese in his 1958-62 famine.

There was every reason for mass protests against the democidal Chinese regime, regardless of attitudes toward South Africa, but they didn't happen, because they weren't fashionable.

quote:
I don't think the PLO are any more morally innocent than Sinn Fein; but much as one dislikes Sinn Fein one couldn't accuse them of planning to set up a Catholic fascist theocracy.
One could, however, point out the PLO's fascist and anti-Semitic use of Holocaust denial and quotes from The Protocols of Zion.
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no prophet's flag is set so...

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It is of further note that Hamas continues to hold to their position that Israel should be destroyed while at the same time agreeing to unite with the Palestinian Authority (PLO). The problem being that Hamas continues to call for the destruction of Israel. Hamas apparently agreed to this unity thing, and the hand over of administration of Gaza to the PA because Qatar cut off its funding in the midst of its own problems with Saudi Arabia. Hamas has worked to organize its sponsorship with Saudi as recently as 2015, as it's relationship with Iran cooled.

These outsider influences: the supporters of Palestinian armed struggle devoted to the destruction of Israel is why the other countries in the region have to be involved in the settlement. -- Other countries must agree not to sponsor violence aimed at the destruction of Israel.

We could also discuss Hezbollah, the Lebanese political party which fights against Israel as a proxy for Iran. This organization is a designated terror organization in most of our countries. Again showing that Iran must play a role in Israel-Palestinian peace by ceasing to fund an organization which seeks to destroy Israel.

With these few paragraphs, hopefully I have drawn attention to the complexity and need for pressure to be exerted on more countries than Israel. That is, unless you do not support its right to exist, the UN resolution which created it etc. Peace will not occur unless the powerful countries in the region want to support it.

/tangent/
I do wonder if countries like Saudi and Iran would prefer to maintain the conflict and promote ideas which blame Israel for everything. It allows them to focus on external threats and not their domestic issues like dictatorship and basic human rights.
/end tangent/

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I repeat that there is no Christian justification for the Crusades, but neither is there any justification for Muslims to complain about their ancestors receiving a taste of what they had been dishing out for over 450 years prior to 1295.

This is just obscene. I can't imagine anyone who calls himself a Christian thinks like this. You must have misspoken.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It is of further note that Hamas continues to hold to their position that Israel should be destroyed while at the same time agreeing to unite with the Palestinian Authority (PLO). The problem being that Hamas continues to call for the destruction of Israel. Hamas apparently agreed to this unity thing, and the hand over of administration of Gaza to the PA because Qatar cut off its funding in the midst of its own problems with Saudi Arabia. Hamas has worked to organize its sponsorship with Saudi as recently as 2015, as it's relationship with Iran cooled.

This is so tedious. Hamas has repeatedly stated that it will recognise Israel within 1967 borders. The suggestion that it is the Palestinians, and in particular Hamas, which is the barrier to peace is bogus.

Gaza is under siege. Hamas is an unpleasant organisation, but one can hardly blame them for trying to break the siege - or even for seeking to fight back against military aircraft with pea-shooters. The idea that this is somehow a symmetrical war with the same level of blame and responsibility on both "sides" is utter nonsense. There is an heavily armed occupier and an occupied population refusing to cooperate with the enemy.

Given that very little goes in or out of Gaza, it is laughable to claim that somehow Iran has a significant impact on the conflict. If they somehow are able to transfer funds to Hamas, to send weapons and so on - then they are wasting their time as it is making zero difference.

The West Bank is a different situation. Given the ties of the Palestinian economy to the Israeli economy, it is ridiculous for anyone there to claim that they don't recognise Israel. It is recognised as a military power, and very often it is recognised as the sole economic partner. Saudis do not buy Palestinian products, Saudis do not feed Palestinian children. By and large the biggest contributors to keeping Palestinians alive are the USA and EU (via the UNRWA) and Israel via trade. Arab states might take posturing positions and offer handshakes, but they've all got other things to worry about rather than getting involved in Palestine.

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arse

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You really think Israel is willing to go back to the 1967 borders? Pour yourself another one.

No party that suggested going back to the 1967 borders would ever form a coalition again.
One of the reasons they can't go back to the 1967 border is because there is one section that is indefensible against attack.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Mudfrog
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THIS is helpful as an explanation.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
One of the reasons they can't go back to the 1967 border is because there is one section that is indefensible against attack.

Or it could be because a fairly large proportion of the population of Israel lives on the wrong side of the border. And it might be because the express intentions of the government of Israel are to expand further.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
THIS is helpful as an explanation.

This is propaganda, conveniently ignoring the realities of the occupation, settlement expansion and any semblance of fairness. One reason that a Palestinian state is now impossible is because the West Bank has been salami sliced to the extent that there isn't a contiguous state there - and the Wall and Settlements are only making this less possible.

So Israelis muntering on about how the Palestinians are refusing to compromise and are refusing to take the opportunities for statehood that are available are just lying.

Israel has shown that it is not interested in having a Palestinian state and have done everything possible to frustrate it.

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arse

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Mudfrog
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And the stuff coming out of the PA (or even the BBC) isn't?

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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mr cheesy
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What, you think that the realities of the occupation - described in all brutality by respected human rights organisation such as Amnesty and HRW - are lies? You think the maps showing the land grab from settlements are lies? You think the media reports of soldiers taking away children from houses in occupied land are propaganda?


You're giving a pass to the occupier because it suits your bullshit incoherent theology of the land.

As even the British government repeated yesterday, imprisoning minors in the occupied Palestinian Territories is a human rights abuse - and continuing with building of settlements is a barrier to peace.

The only people who say it isn't are liars.

[ 10. January 2018, 11:34: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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wild haggis
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This argument is going in circles.

The history of the area is very complex. When it was part of the Ottoman Empire it wasn't just Arabs who lived there! If you read the history of that Empire you will notice that throughout the it, Moslems of whatever nationality, Jews and Christians and even other faiths all lived in Ottoman lands including Turkey. OK the Jews and Christians had to pay an extra taxes. There were Jews and Christians living in Israel under the Ottomans.

The first Jews who settled Palestine in 19th cent, & early 20th cent. had good intentions of farming and particularly irrigating areas of land not used. There weren't huge numbers. Yes, there were some who wanted to push out the Palestinians but not all, by any manner or means.

However later there was an influx of Jews who had been hounded out of Europe and Russia who came to Israel. Many settled in towns.

Then during and after 2nd WW the Jewish people of both religious and secular beliefs were lead to believe that the country was basically empty and theirs for the taking. They were determined to claim the land as their own and set about attacking the British or anyone else there. The Balfour Declaration was mis-worded and thus there has been a policy by successive Israeli Governments of settling anyone who claimed to be Jewish in Israel to boost their numbers as they saw Israel as "their" and only "their" homeland.

There are rights and wrongs on both sides.

My friend worked for the British Council in Israel some 20 years ago. She was lodged with a Christian family in a village where Christians and Moslems got on together and had for centuries. The Israeli Government decided to flatten houses in the village with 12 hours notice because a 2nd cousin of one of the Moslem families had been involved in setting a bomb in Jerusalem. They just bulldozed houses arbitarilly - including Christian houses, and that of my friend's landlord. The British Council had to locate her elsewhere. She doesn't know where these families went.I cannot understand why wealthy American Jews who have work and houses in the States should be allowed to take land and build on the ancestral orchards of the residents of Israel, just because they are Jewish. Just imagine if I went up to some of the English living in Scotland and told them to get out just because it was the home of my ancestors. You would, quite rightly, lambast me.

Yes, there are faults on all sides but you can't just claim a land as yours, where others have been living for centuries due to a Biblical promise given to a nomadic tribe.

Bigotry creates wars and suffering.

What about Trump and his wall? What about UKIP? What about........

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wild haggis

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
On the contrary, there was widespread, nauseatingly starry-eyed idealism about China after Nixon's visit in 1972 and Australian PM Whitlam's visit in 1973.

What, among governments? Speaking truth to left-wing students is not treating truth to power.

quote:
[QUOTE][qb] I don't think the PLO are any more morally innocent than Sinn Fein; but much as one dislikes Sinn Fein one couldn't accuse them of planning to set up a Catholic fascist theocracy.
One could, however, point out the PLO's fascist and anti-Semitic use of Holocaust denial and quotes from The Protocols of Zion.

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion while disgusting is not Islamic (being if anything Russian Orthodox), and not specifically fascist (having no positive program of its own). Henry Ford was anti-semitic and had fascist sympathies, but was he actually a fascist?
Wikipedia says that Hamas officially cite The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I know The Protocols has a much wider currency in the Arab world that it ought to, and I would believe you can find PLO members citing it, but does that make it official policy? You can find members of the UK Conservative Party or the US Republican Party citing some odd things.

Wikipedia says that the Palestinian Authority at a time when it was dominated by the PLO adopted Islam as the state religion and based its jurisprudence on sharia rather than common or civil law traditions. If you'd bothered to look for that, you could have used that. Again though, Islam and sharia jurisprudence is no more essentially fascist than Catholicism and civil law is.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You really think Israel is willing to go back to the 1967 borders? Pour yourself another one.

No party that suggested going back to the 1967 borders would ever form a coalition again.
One of the reasons they can't go back to the 1967 border is because there is one section that is indefensible against attack.
Totally irrelevant. The reason they can't go back to the 1967 borders is that they have annexed or de-facto annexed large swathes of the West Bank, and the "settlers" there are the right-wing, "Judea-and-Samaria or bust" types.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I repeat that there is no Christian justification for the Crusades, but neither is there any justification for Muslims to complain about their ancestors receiving a taste of what they had been dishing out for over 450 years prior to 1295.

This is just obscene. I can't imagine anyone who calls himself a Christian thinks like this. You must have misspoken.
There is nothing obscene or unChristian about pointing out inconsistencies in someone else's position.

If you believe in and practise religious violence, then you are in no position to complain if it is then used against you.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion while disgusting is not Islamic (being if anything Russian Orthodox), and not specifically fascist (having no positive program of its own).

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is an infalllibe indicator of anti-Semitism, and its use and propagation in the post-WWII context (especially in the ME where there was explicit Islamist support for the Holocaust) must be counted as some sort of fascist or even neo-Nazi act.
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