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Source: (consider it) Thread: Dealing with bigots
Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The people of that region for four centuries prior to the Crusades saw huge groups of Muslims swoop in and establish states and shed rivers of blood.

From a Christian point of view the Crusades were indefensible, but they didn't happen ex nihilo.

I'm not sure actual history bears that out. Compare the initial Muslim capture of Jerusalem (the city surrendered after a bloodless siege and residents were treated fairly well) or Jerusalem's recapture by Muslims during the Second Crusade (after the Crusaders refused fairly generous terms they lost a brief siege and were still given fairly lenient terms, though not as generous as the initial offer) with the Christian capture of Jerusalem in the First Crusade (a brutal massacre of Muslims, Jews, and eastern Christians that was considered an atrocity even by those who considered the normal standards of Mediæval warfare to be acceptable).
You can cherry-pick instances in which Muslims behaved better than Christians, but it doesn't change the fact that during the four centuries prior to the Crusades, Muslims swept across the ME, north Africa and into Europe in wars of conquest which caused countless thousands of deaths.
Hey, I'm not the one doing the cherry-picking here. You were the one who suggested that initial Muslim invasion of Palestine / Israel / Outremer and the subsequent Muslim re-conquest after the collapse of the Second Crusade were exceptionally bloody when compared with actions taken by the various Crusader factions (and in some sense justified the Crusades, but from a non-Christian point of view [Confused] ). It's not my fault that your own preferred (cherry-picked?) historical example isn't what you claimed it to be.

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Rossweisse

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
...If you believe in and practise religious violence, then you are in no position to complain if it is then used against you.

Let me make sure I've got this straight: Are you saying that the Crusaders and Muslims practiced religious violence centuries ago, and that justifies Israeli religious violence against Christian and Muslim Palestinians today?

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion while disgusting is not Islamic (being if anything Russian Orthodox), and not specifically fascist (having no positive program of its own).

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is an infalllibe indicator of anti-Semitism, and its use and propagation in the post-WWII context (especially in the ME where there was explicit Islamist support for the Holocaust) must be counted as some sort of fascist or even neo-Nazi act.
I'd say especially in the West.
You haven't provided any evidence for your assertion that the PLO uses the Protocols.

Is there any reason we should pay attention to anything you say on the subject? What do you know about it apart from the standard talking points of pro-Israeli hawk opinion pieces?
A while back you told someone else that you wished you were as sure of anything as they were sure of everything. That made me laugh in disbelief, because if there's anyone on this board who expresses complete certainly on every subject on which they vouchsafe their opinion it is you.

[ 11. January 2018, 13:05: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
You were the one who suggested that initial Muslim invasion of Palestine / Israel / Outremer and the subsequent Muslim re-conquest after the collapse of the Second Crusade were exceptionally bloody when compared with actions taken by the various Crusader factions

It is not a matter of "suggesting" anything, but of recognising the historical fact that both the Muslim wars of conquest following Mahommed's death, and the reaction to them in the form of the Crusades were both examples of "exceptionally bloody" religious violence.
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Are you saying that the Crusaders and Muslims practiced religious violence centuries ago, and that justifies Israeli religious violence against Christian and Muslim Palestinians today?

I find it very difficult to accept that you could really think that, but I choose to believe that your enquiry is sincere.

All I am pointing out is the very obvious and unexceptionable point that Muslims are in no position to complain about the Crusades given the centuries of Muslim religious violence which preceded them.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I'd say especially in the West.

Really?

I'd say anywhere.

At what particular meridian of longitude would you say that usage of the Protocols becomes "especially" anti-Semitic, fascist, and potentially neo-Nazi?

quote:
You haven't provided any evidence for your assertion that the PLO uses the Protocols.
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/PLO-ambassador-endorses-Protocols-of-the-Elders-of-Zion-408250

And please don't try to pretend that this was only one person, because no-one in a political organisation, particularly someone with an official position in it, would even dream of publicly endorsing such vile trash unless they thought that they had some sort of implicit approval behind them to do so.

quote:
Is there any reason we should pay attention to anything you say on the subject?
What you should be paying "attention to" are the facts that Israel is a small nation, with a multiple millennia claim to its territory,
whose people were threatened with genocide within living memory, and whose existence (and the existence of its people) is under constant threat from surrounding countries containing significant fascistic elements.

And make some effort to particularly remember those facts when attention is drawn (utterly disproportionately, when compared to the global treatment of its enemies) to its genuine faults, instead of mindlessly jumping on trendy bandwagons.

quote:
A while back you told someone else that you wished you were as sure of anything as they were sure of everything.
I don't remember that, but you might well be right.

Perhaps I should be flattered that you take the trouble to keep a dossier on everything I write, but my response instead is to wonder where you find the time - you can't have much to do.

Get a life.

[ 11. January 2018, 19:49: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
You were the one who suggested that initial Muslim invasion of Palestine / Israel / Outremer and the subsequent Muslim re-conquest after the collapse of the Second Crusade were exceptionally bloody when compared with actions taken by the various Crusader factions

It is not a matter of "suggesting" anything, but of recognising the historical fact that both the Muslim wars of conquest following Mahommed's death, and the reaction to them in the form of the Crusades were both examples of "exceptionally bloody" religious violence.
I'm pretty sure that consistency would dictate that you are in no position to complain about the [Muslim wars of conquest] given the centuries of [Christian] religious violence which preceded them. [Big Grin]

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
All I am pointing out is the very obvious and unexceptionable point that Muslims are in no position to complain about the Crusades given the centuries of Muslim religious violence which preceded them.

That's the history of a diverse and multicultural group of people, dead for centuries. So I don't think it makes your point or any point at all. I think the point it makes that it doesn't make a damned bit of difference to the people caught in a current conflict (which their leaders and the surrounding nations seem to have limited interest in actually settling**). Who killed whom and what their religion and culture was a thousand years ago makes no difference at all when all you want is a safe present and hope for a future.


**as the Ferengi said "war is good for business" (#34). And it must be true in this world as well.

[ 11. January 2018, 22:04: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Golden Key
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Kaplan--

Re "Protocols":

Maybe the Palestinians have simply fallen into the trap of believing them? Rather than, as you seem to think, knowing they're a fraud and using them anyway.

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Rossweisse

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
...What you should be paying "attention to" are the facts that Israel is a small nation, with a multiple millennia claim to its territory,
whose people were threatened with genocide within living memory, and whose existence (and the existence of its people) is under constant threat from surrounding countries containing significant fascistic elements. ...

Other people have also lived in Palestine/Israel for multiple millennia. Their lands have been stolen, their homes and olive groves bulldozed; they all too frequently cannot get through arbitrary and unjust blockades to receive medical care. The charities that assist St. John of Jerusalem's Eye Hospital cannot import medical supplies. There is much more. Why this utter lack of decency toward people who were there long before the State of Israel existed?

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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I long for the day I can create an independent English state in Denmark and push the Danes out; my ancestors came from there so I have a two thousand year claim to it and any Danes who try to stop me are Anglophobe terrorists. Americans of English descent will of course also have the right to come and even create settlements well into what remains of Denmark. Soldiers will protect them from the terrorist Danes.

No, not really.

[ 12. January 2018, 06:23: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Kaplan--

Re "Protocols":

Maybe the Palestinians have simply fallen into the trap of believing them? Rather than, as you seem to think, knowing they're a fraud and using them anyway.

The Palestinians are a beligered population, and rumours fly around faster than news. Anti-semitism and holocaust-denial is certainly not rare.

I think there are two things to say about this:

First, it is hardly surprising that a population thinks bad things - and is inclined to believe utter crap about - Jews when the only time they see them is at the sharp end of a gun. That's not an excuse, but it is a reality. I don't know what really can be done about this in the short-term, as I suspect keeping people under a harsh military occupation, keeping a large number of people on food hand-outs and keeping a lot of people living in inadequate housing with few life-chances is always going to be fertile ground for the growth of rumours.

Second, there are loudmouths who sometimes say things in public. Thankfully, on the whole, the Palestinian voices on the international stage have been able to shut this nonsense up. The vast majority of Palestinian voices at the UN and elsewhere are now highly educated diplomats who know that they should be fighting real issues rather than firefighting bullshit.

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I'd say especially in the West.

Really?

I'd say anywhere.

No you wouldn't. You didn't. You said:
quote:
(especially in the ME where there was explicit Islamist support for the Holocaust)
Perhaps you should keep a dossier on what you write.
quote:
At what particular meridian of longitude would you say that usage of the Protocols becomes "especially" anti-Semitic, fascist, and potentially neo-Nazi?
Perhaps the point at which you think it ceases to "especially" fascist?
And perhaps you could explain why the purported 'explicit Islamist support for the Holocaust' is supposedly more of an incriminating circumstance than the actual conduct of the Holocaust?
(I say, 'purported' because I have no reason to believe any claims you make are anything other than slanted half-truths.)

Perhaps the point at which you think it becomes especially damning evidence is the point where millennia-old family holdings of land are stolen by self-proclaimed representatives of the Jewish people, where representatives of the Israeli state arbitrarily destroy homes, and enforce onerous and arbitrary restrictions on quotidian travel and trade?
Because if that were done to you you would obviously immediately appreciate the justice of the action.

quote:
quote:
You haven't provided any evidence for your assertion that the PLO uses the Protocols.
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/PLO-ambassador-endorses-Protocols-of-the-Elders-of-Zion-408250

And please don't try to pretend that this was only one person, because no-one in a political organisation, particularly someone with an official position in it, would even dream of publicly endorsing such vile trash unless they thought that they had some sort of implicit approval behind them to do so.

Firstly, Abbas recalled the ambassador and disavowed his remarks, as I discovered on the first page of a google search. Times of Israel.
Secondly, I don't believe your general principle is true, living as I do in a country whose Foreign Minister is Boris Johnson.

quote:
quote:
Is there any reason we should pay attention to anything you say on the subject?
What you should be paying "attention to" are the facts that
I really see no reason to think you have any idea what I should be paying attention to. The more you use words like 'should' the less idea you have.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
If you believe in and practise religious violence, then you are in no position to complain if it is then used against you.

If only that's what you were doing. You were, rather, saying that people can't complain for being treated like shit if their great-great-great-great-great-great-[repeat as necessary]-grandparents were murderous jerks. That's not them being inconsistent. That's you justifying visiting the sins of long-dead ancestors on the living.

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mousethief

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Even if you're going to say "I don't mean today's Palestinians, I mean the victims of the Crusades have no room to complain based on the Muslim conquests."

The Muslim conquest of North Africa was 400 years cold by the time of the first Crusade. The conquest of the Levant was another 60 years older. So it still comes down to your making people responsible for the sins of their long-dead forebears. By contrast I am far more guilty of the Trail of Tears, and I bristle at being held responsible for that, as it happened a mere 150 years before I was born.

It seems that your "serves them right" serves as a cover for anti-Muslim bigotry.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Funny, innit, the accusation goes out that criticism of Israel is a disguise for anti-Semitism, yet scratch the surface of some of its supporters and what do you find? I wonder if we'll get a Full House with "but Islam isn't a race"?

[ 12. January 2018, 10:33: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It is not a matter of "suggesting" anything, but of recognising the historical fact that both the Muslim wars of conquest following Mahommed's death, and the reaction to them in the form of the Crusades were both examples of "exceptionally bloody" religious violence.

Well, no. The Muslim conquest was not by the standards of warfare at the time exceptionally bloody. The city you cited as being massacred had previously surrendered and then revolted, according to wikipedia: destroying a city that had done so was standard practice in the area at the time. The most notable example is I suppose the Romans at Palmyra.
It's even arguable that the Muslim conquests were not religious violence (at least no more than the Byzantine wars against Persia were). There was no attempt by the conquerors to convert their new subjects. Mass conversions to Islam didn't follow for about three centuries.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Well, no. The Muslim conquest was not by the standards of warfare at the time exceptionally bloody.

It was over four centuries of unprovoked conquest, covering huge swathes of territory, and producing countless deaths.

Your casual dismissiveness of it over a millenium later, had they foreseen it, would not have been much comfort to the (at least) hundreds of thousands who died.

quote:
The city you cited as being massacred had previously surrendered and then revolted, according to wikipedia: destroying a city that had done so was standard practice in the area at the time.

Well, that's all right then.

Suddenly the slaughter of 40,000 people isn't an example of bloody warfare any more.

quote:
It's even arguable that the Muslim conquests were not religious violence (at least no more than the Byzantine wars against Persia were). There was no attempt by the conquerors to convert their new subjects.
It was motivated by religion, and resulted in the dhimmitude of those who survived.

Why is it so straightforward to recognise and condemn historic Christian religious violence, while feeling the need to perform polemical contortions to explain away historic Muslim religious violence?

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So it still comes down to your making people responsible for the sins of their long-dead forebears.

It comes down to saying that Muslims are in no position to feel aggrieved against Westerners in general, or Christians in particular, because of what our ancestors did to their ancestors, because their ancestors did the same to our ancestors.

If you can't see the difference, ask someone to explain it for you.

Both Christians and Muslims should admit, and be ashamed of(not assume responsibility for) the religious violence perpetrated by their forebears.

[ 12. January 2018, 20:06: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Abbas recalled the ambassador and disavowed his remarks

To quote the immortal Mandy Rice Davies, "He would, wouldn't he?".

One of the jobs of someone in charge of an organisation like PLO is to move quickly to put out brushfires when someone lets the cat out of the bag (to mangle a metaphor).

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Gamaliel
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Thing is, though Kaplan, you are hardly being even-handed. It's certainly true that Muslims, Byzantine and Latin Christians all committed acts of violence back in the day. ISIS and Islamo-fascists do the same today.

Does that mean that contemporary Israel has every right to treat Palestinians shittily any more than Iran has (or had) the right to treat Jewish people shittily.

I'm sorry, but you seem prepared to let anyone off the hook unless they're Muslim.

I'm sure that's not what you are saying but that's not how it sounds.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
It comes down to saying that Muslims are in no position to feel aggrieved against Westerners in general, or Christians in particular, because of what our ancestors did to their ancestors, because their ancestors did the same to our ancestors.

If you can't see the difference, ask someone to explain it for you.

If you can't even explain your own beliefs, why should I expect anybody else can? It "comes down to" saying that Muslims TODAY are in no position to feel aggrieved because of something Muslims did 1000 years ago.

But what actually matters is what is happening to the Muslims TODAY in Palestine. And what happened however-many years ago doesn't excuse it. You however are trying to excuse it with talk like this. You don't think you are, but that is how you come across. And people have been trying to tell you this, and you stick your fingers in your ears.

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mr cheesy
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I'm not following. Who is saying that their actions are justified because of the Crusades?

I don't think I've ever heard anyone in the ME say that. Possibly IS.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Abbas recalled the ambassador and disavowed his remarks

To quote the immortal Mandy Rice Davies, "He would, wouldn't he?".

One of the jobs of someone in charge of an organisation like PLO is to move quickly to put out brushfires when someone lets the cat out of the bag (to mangle a metaphor).

So your grounds for claiming that the PLO are an Islamofascist organisation is basically no more than, 'he would, wouldn't he?' Only the true Islamofascist denies that he's an Islamofascist?

Given that you have next to no evidence that it's true, why do you want to believe it?

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You however are trying to excuse it with talk like this.

Wrong.

Try to read for comprehension.

You are reading what you you want me to say, rather than what I am actually saying.

All I have said is that while Christians should feel ashamed of the Crusades, there is no room for Muslims to take any moral high ground over them, or cite them as a grievance against Westerners in general or Christians in particular.

That's all.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Does that mean that contemporary Israel has every right to treat Palestinians shittily

Israel should be ( and overwhelmingly and incessantly and gleefully is, from the UN down to the most insignificant, attention-seeking, virtue-signalling, Western trendy-lefty) criticised for its faults.

But its faults don't mean that Jews are not entitled to secure possession of their millennia-old homeland, to which many of them fled as a result of a historically recent attempt to annihilate them, and which is surrounded by Islamofascist elements pledged to the destruction of them and their nation.

For me or anyone else to lecture a relatively decent and liberal country de haut en bas at a safe distance about its failings, while merely cursorily acknowledging (if that) the horrific abuses perpetrated by the regimes it is up against, is pompous, hypocritical and nauseating.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
All I have said is that while Christians should feel ashamed of the Crusades, there is no room for Muslims to take any moral high ground over them, or cite them as a grievance against Westerners in general or Christians in particular.

I see. I thought you were responding to somebody or something on this thread, and you were just shooting words into the air. My bad.

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mousethief

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Oh, and FUCK the "millenia old homeland" argument. The 100th-generation descendants of a handful of people who left one place do not automatically have a right to go back to it and shove others out of the way. Especially if, according to their own stories, they committed genocide to take possession of that land in the first place. No, it just doesn't work that way in the real world.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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I refer the hon gent to my earlier comments on my right to take Denmark from the Danes.

As regards ancient massacres, the evangelical rule seems to be:

If done by Biblical characters citing God's command - any objection is just our modern sensibilities.

If done by Christian Europeans in the past - we need to judge them by the standards of their age.

If done by Muslims in the past - look at what a vicious load of bastards they are.

Im also intrigued as to why having opinions on Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is nauseating armchair self-righteousness, but passing judgement on the equally distant behaviour of Palestinians is perfectly fine.

[ 14. January 2018, 06:28: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Gamaliel
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Yes, Israel is a liberal country which is a lot more than can be said for its neighbours.

The same thing could have been - and was - said about apartheid South Africa back in the day - including by many evangelicals.

The only decent neighbour South Africa was seen to have was Botswana.

Now, a comparison such as that is not necessarily equivalence. Israel has got some very nasty neighbours and faces some very extreme and vicious terrorists and enemies.

I haven't ever denied that.

I don't have any simple solutions either.

Ok, I've not been to Israel. You have. So has mr cheesy and other posters. All I can do 'from this distance' is weigh up what I hear from people who have been and who have different views.

Whatever the rights and wrongs and ins and outs we can't turn the clock back pre-1948. We have to start where we are now.

A Muslims are all vicious Islamofascists bastards doesn't strike me as the most sensible place to start any more than 'any one concerned about the plight of the Palestinians is a trendy lefty virtue signalling nauseating dick-head' - which is what Kaplan's arguments seem to boil down to.

It'd be like saying, 'Apartheid South Africa had a few things wrong with it yes, but it was surrounded by dodgy regimes so that made it ok ... And anyone who thought it wasn't was a trendy-lefty virtue signaller ...'

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Gamaliel
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To be fair to Kaplan, though, Karl, he does condemn Crusader violence and such and doesn't regard it as 'excusable' in any way from the standards of the times.

He believes that they had the Gospels and so should have known better.

I'd imagine, though, that he would also argue that the Muslims didn't and only had the Quran to go on ...

One might equally argue then, that the Jews only have the Old Testament ...

Anyhow, the point is that partiality cuts both ways.

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Kwesi
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quote:
Gamaliel: Yes, Israel is a liberal country which is a lot more than can be said for its neighbours.
No, it is not! How can a country be liberal that occupies the territory of its neighbours, that steals and settles their land, and creates Bantustans which are utterly exposed to its will. Israel is no more liberal than the government of apartheid South Africa, with whom it had very good relations. If it were liberal it would operate under a law that treated its subjects equally and respected international law. Israel is simply another nasty country amongst others in the region.
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Kwesi
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...........Perhaps an apology is due, Gamaliel. Were you being ironic?
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
If done by Christian Europeans in the past - we need to judge them by the standards of their age.

If done by Muslims in the past - look at what a vicious load of bastards they are.

I have consistently condemned the past religious violence of both Muslims and Christians.

You just made that up.

quote:
Im also intrigued as to why having opinions on Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is nauseating armchair self-righteousness, but passing judgement on the equally distant behaviour of Palestinians is perfectly fine.
You are not "intrigued" at all - you know perfectly well what the problem is.

It is the fashionable, incessant, pervasive (practically global) and almost exclusive criticism of Israel (whose very existence is under threat), which is risibly disproportionate when compared with the grudging, almost non-existent condemnation of the terrorist, anti-Semitic stance of some Palestinians and their Islamofascist allies in the region.

[ 14. January 2018, 20:31: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
If done by Christian Europeans in the past - we need to judge them by the standards of their age.

If done by Muslims in the past - look at what a vicious load of bastards they are.

I have consistently condemned the past religious violence of both Muslims and Christians.

You just made that up.

Nope. All things evangelicals have said to me. It's not all about you you know.

quote:
quote:
Im also intrigued as to why having opinions on Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is nauseating armchair self-righteousness, but passing judgement on the equally distant behaviour of Palestinians is perfectly fine.
You are not "intrigued" at all - you know perfectly well what the problem is.

It is the fashionable, incessant, pervasive (practically global) and almost exclusive criticism of Israel (whose very existence is under threat), which is risibly disproportionate when compared with the grudging, almost non-existent condemnation of the terrorist, anti-Semitic stance of some Palestinians and their Islamofascist allies in the region.

Stop thinking you know what I think. I do think you're operating a double standard. I'm not allowed to say I think Israel's actions stink because I'm over here not facing what they're facing but you're allowed to say you think Palestinian resistance stinks even though you're not there facing what they're facing.

And I still want to know when we get to set up our English state in Denmark and push the Danes out of their homes. After all, our ancestors left there 1500 years ago.

[ 14. January 2018, 20:42: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Rossweisse

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...And I still want to know when we get to set up our English state in Denmark and push the Danes out of their homes. After all, our ancestors left there 1500 years ago.

I want my family chateau near La Rochelle back. It was taken from the remains of my (mostly murdered) Huguenot ancestors and given to their distant Roman Catholic cousins. That's only from 1686, and the people involved are even documented. If modern Israelis can kick out Palestinian property owners on the basis of millennia-old Biblical claims, it seems only fair to bring the French to account.

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Gamaliel
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It's all relative, Kwesi, Israel is certainly far more liberal than many of its neighbours on certain issues.

That doesn't let it off the hook on the way it has created Bantustans and so on.

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Kwesi
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quote:
It's all relative, Kwesi, Israel is certainly far more liberal than many of its neighbours on certain issues.

I'll bear that in mind when contemplating the continuing illegal dispossession of Palestinians and unlawful settlement expansion in the West Bank, and during the next punitive expedition into Gaza.

I may well agree with you that if forced to choose a spot to live in the Middle East I might well prefer Israel to any of the rest, following its despoliation of the Lebanon. I would not, however, describe it as a liberal state, though it presents itself as such to the West. Meantime, I'm thankful that there are many place elsewhere more congenial to liberally-minded democrats.

As I have argued before, I can understand why Israel behaves as it does given its history, ethos, and geo-political situation, which severely limits its political choices. That is one reason why I don't want to get into a lather of moralising. On the other hand, that does not mean I have to endorse its purposes or actions. As Donald Trump recognises, there are some pretty crappy countries around the world and the Middle East has far more than its fair share, including Israel, which is no more to be trusted with atomic weapons than Iran.

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Rossweisse

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
...But its faults don't mean that Jews are not entitled to secure possession of their millennia-old homeland, to which many of them fled as a result of a historically recent attempt to annihilate them, and which is surrounded by Islamofascist elements pledged to the destruction of them and their nation....

Kaplan Corday, Israel's faults have nothing to do with attempts "to secure possession of their millennia-old homeland." Lots of us have ancient homelands from which our ancestors were evicted. I think that various people have amply demonstrated that in the course of this thread.

I'm curious about something. You readily confront your critics (occasionally in language that skirts the Hellish), but you haven't engaged with any of my critiques of your arguments. Is there a reason for that?

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Gamaliel
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Where did I endorse any of Israel's purposes or actions, Kwesi?

I'd deplore Israel's actions in Lebanon and its incursions into Gaza and the illegal West Bank settlements as much as you do.

I'd rather hope Kaplan would do the same but I somehow doubt he would, but he may surprise us.

That said, as you'd accept, Israel has a better record on some liberal issues than most, if not all of its neighbours.

If Kaplan is calling for an equal spread of ire and moral outrage with some of that directed at Israel's neighbours as well, then to that extent I think he has a point.

Justifying the illegal settlements, bloody incursions into Palestinian territory - and yes, there were rockets fired at Israel, I'm not denying that, but look at the disparity in the weaponry with which Israel retaliated - then not so much.

Yes, it can be all trendy lefty and so on to single Israel out for censure - and double-standards can be found all ways round.

Back in the day, though it always struck me as hypocritical how some of the more Dispensationalist evangelicals I knew would be quick to condemn IRA or other terrorists in their own day but seemingly had no qualms about the actions of The Stern Gang and other Zionist terrorists a generation or two earlier.

That had helped fulfil 'biblical prophecy' so that was alright then ...

Ok, so they never actually said that in explicit terms but there did seem to be a tacit sense that Jewish violence was justifiable but Palestinian or other violence wasn't.

If Kaplan is calling on the Ship to be more even handed, then I suggest he also makes the same approach to some of the often strongly pro-Israel voices within his own evangelical constituency.

If he doesn't then he's just as much an armchair commentator as anyone he is accusing of that here.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
If Kaplan is calling for an equal spread of ire and moral outrage with some of that directed at Israel's neighbours as well, then to that extent I think he has a point.

One tires of the incessant whataboutery on the issue.

Person 1: "I see that the IDF has bulldozed yet another hundred homes in Betjala. I have cousins in Betjala. This really pisses me off."

Person 2: "Are you condemning what Jordan did in 1967? Are you condemning the rockets fired into Israel from Gaza? Are you condemning the Islamofascists in Egypt and Syria and Iran and East Tamil? Hmm? Are you? You sir are an antisemite."

It gets old.

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, mousethief, the amount of whataboutery in relation to Israel is staggering. What about the statement by Hamas that blah blah blah?

It's a deflection, isn't it? Possibly also, the tu quoque fallacy, but I can never quite remember the details of that.

Incidentally, the Soviets used to use tu quoque on a truly lavish scale, e.g. 'you are lynching negros'. I think Putin still does it, and no doubt, Trump.

[ 15. January 2018, 13:52: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:


Person 1: "I see that the IDF has bulldozed yet another hundred homes in Betjala. I have cousins in Betjala. This really pisses me off."

Beit Jala, presumably. I've never seen that alternative spelling.

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arse

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:


Person 1: "I see that the IDF has bulldozed yet another hundred homes in Betjala. I have cousins in Betjala. This really pisses me off."

Beit Jala, presumably. I've never seen that alternative spelling.
I plead lack of sleep.

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Kwesi
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quote:
Gamaliel: Where did I endorse any of Israel's purposes or actions, Kwesi?

Fair enough Gamaliel, but your bald statement regarding the liberal nature of Israel requires, in my opinion, a great deal of clarification.

What I was trying to point out is that there is an inherent contradiction between Israel’s liberal-democratic claims and its privileging of persons of a particular ethnicity, a euphemism for racism. The trajectory of its history, based on its rape of land held by those of another ethnicity, has only served increasingly to expose the fallacy of any liberal credentials it might have had at its creation i.e. it is becoming increasingly authoritarian, illiberal, as time passes by, because, unable to eliminate those it has dispossessed and incapable of addressing the injustice at the heart of its foundation, questions of security have come to dominate all other considerations. Many of the comments both pro and anti-Israel assume the present balance of power will continue indefinitely, but it also contains the elements of a tragedy that could yet not only engulf Israelis but also their neighbours. God may have given the patriarchs the land, but his Son forecast a horrific future for the daughters of Jerusalem.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd rather hope Kaplan would do the same but I somehow doubt he would, but he may surprise us.

I was the one who raised Deir Yassin, arguably the worst stain on Israel's record, on this thread.

The claim that I ignore Israel's faults is a lie to avoid the uncomfortable facts to which I
draw attention.

quote:
If Kaplan is calling on the Ship to be more even handed, then I suggest he also makes the same approach to some of the often strongly pro-Israel voices within his own evangelical constituency.
How would you know what I say, and don't say, off the Ship?

As it happens, I have criticised the ultra-Zionist attitude of dispensationalists ("everything that Israel does is divinely sanctioned and therefore beyond discussion, let alone reproof") both on and off the Ship.

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Rossweisse

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
...As it happens, I have criticised the ultra-Zionist attitude of dispensationalists ("everything that Israel does is divinely sanctioned and therefore beyond discussion, let alone reproof") both on and off the Ship.

Could you tell us where you have done so on the Ship? I've only seen the "Israel is entitled to the Palestinians' land because God set it up that way millennia ago" stuff.

Thanks.

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Gamaliel
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Ok, I joined this thread late and haven't read all the posts so I missed the Deir Yassin reference and no, I don't know what you say ashore and away from the Ship.

So, point taken and accepted.

But where have I:

a) lied

b) ignored the 'uncomfortable facts' to which you draw attention?

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Rossweisse:
I've only seen the "Israel is entitled to the Palestinians' land because God set it up that way millennia ago" stuff.

Oh no you haven't.

I have repeatedly stated that my support for Israel is not based on any theory of Divine sanction, dispensational or otherwise.

The Jews have as much, or more, right to the land as anyone else on the basis of Jews having lived there for thousands of years.

Like most people, I would like to see a just and workable system whereby they could co-exist there with others who have some sort of claim to it.

But neither I nor anyone else has the right to tell Israel's Jews that they must risk suicide as a nation and a people by concessions to an opposition containing anti-Semitic and genocidal elements who approve of the catastrophe which drove so many Jews to Israel post-WWII.

I don't like some of Israel's actions and policies, and agree that that they make mistakes, but the miracle is that they maintain such a liberal and civilised nation in the face of the looniness, savagery and barbarism they are up against.

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Rossweisse

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Well, thank you for responding to one of my posts, Kaplan Corday.

Yes, it would be nice if the Israelis would allow the people who were there before their country was established to retain their property and their freedom.

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