Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dealing with bigots
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: the miracle is that they maintain such a liberal and civilised nation in the face of the looniness, savagery and barbarism they are up against.
That's no miracle. Their liberal and civilised lives are constructed on the back of an industrio-military structure which literally deprives a population of basic rights so another can have beautiful views and outdoor swimming pool.
Of course, one could argue that this is the basic description of any/all Western democracies - but there is something terribly blaze and blatant about the societal foundations in Israel.
-------------------- arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Explain to me again why the presence of a Palestinian Jewish community gives unrelated Jews from the USA and Russia the right to settle and push out Arab Muslims and Christians who've also lived in Palestine for generations? I mean, there are still plenty of people of Anglo-Saxon stock in Denmark, so I refer back to my earlier comparison.
It seems also to me that the real miracle must be the survival of this Palestinian Jewish community for generations without a Jewish state, given how according to some commentators on this thread everyone else there is a murderous anti-Semite.
No-one's demanding national suicide of Israel. However, it's one thing to militarily occupy territory to give yourself security; once you start settling civilians there as if it's part of your country to the exclusion of the locals you're ripping the piss. [ 16. January 2018, 21:22: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: the miracle is that they maintain such a liberal and civilised nation in the face of the looniness, savagery and barbarism they are up against.
That's no miracle. Their liberal and civilised lives are constructed on the back of an industrio-military structure which literally deprives a population of basic rights so another can have beautiful views and outdoor swimming pool.
Of course, one could argue that this is the basic description of any/all Western democracies - but there is something terribly blaze and blatant about the societal foundations in Israel.
Your second paragraph, first sentence isn't a "one could argue". It's fact. Your second sentence is a problem because it singles out Israel as special and different.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Rossweisse: Well, thank you for responding to one of my posts, Kaplan Corday.
Yes, it would be nice if the Israelis would allow the people who were there before their country was established to retain their property and their freedom.
Yeah.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:Your second paragraph, first sentence isn't a "one could argue". It's fact.
Well I think there are levels of truth. On one hand, there aren't many Western liberal democracies where one has superimposed a wealthy society upon a population living in poverty. On the other hand, this is often because the direct impacts of our Western societies are historically and geographically divorced from our reality.
We've discussed this reality on this thread with reference to the establishment of Canada, the USA, Australia and elsewhere. I think one can make a decent argument that a whole bunch of people are held in grinding poverty - and their rights abused - in order for middle class westerners to continue enjoying their standard of living.
It seems undeniable that those societies have subcontracted military exploitation offshore - to hold potential migrants in terrible conditions, to achieve global war objectives in far-flung corners of the world.
quote: Your second sentence is a problem because it singles out Israel as special and different.
Yes, but also no.
Yes. Because there are few liberal Western societies one could name where the exploitation and abuse is quite so blatant, where the differences between the rights on one side of the street and another are so stark, where a liberal Western society has a military that is holding another population under occupation and where the wealth of the former is directly linked temporally and locally to the exploitation and abuse of the latter.
But no, in another sense Israel can't be "singled out" because Israel is us.
Israel is the archetypical Western Imperial settler state.
Israel is created and supported by Western liberal democracies.
Israel demands - with pretty good reason - to be counted amongst European nations.
The Jewish woes were almost entirely created in the 20 century by Western liberal democracies that grew out from the shadows of fascism.
It is this similar-but-not-similar, special-but-not-special, extreme-but-not-extreme, status with Western liberal democracies that makes what Israel is doing so infuriating.
The contrast between that and non-Western non-democracies is quite stark. For example we have very few connections between the West and Western Sahara, consequently we absolutely never hear about it in the news and there is absolutely no emotional (or other) connection to it.
Are the abuses in Western Sahara, Libya, Syria and elsewhere worse than in Israel? Yes. Are we dropping the ball on those other places because they're not claiming to be Western democracies? Yes.
But that doesn't make what Israel is doing excusable. And given the various connections we have (individually, nationally, economically, socially etc) it isn't a great surprise that we feel more connection to it, responsibility for it and believe that the situation is capable of being changed.
-------------------- arse
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
quote: see mr cheesy's last post
mr cheesy, your last post raises a number of very pertinent questions regarding the nature of Western states and their similarities with Israel.
Amongst other matters, we need to remind ourselves that Western states have only been democracies for a short period of time, though they have been liberal for considerably longer. If a universal adult franchise is considered to be an important criterion, then one notes that French women did not have the vote until after WW II, the general election of 1950 for the first in the UK conducted under the rule of one adult one vote, though it had been more or less achieved by 1929, and the United States racially discriminated against most black voters until the 1960s. It follows that Western Imperialism and the planting of overseas settlements were not the creation of Western Democracy, but of a pre-democratic age when citizenship rights were not equal in the host nations, let alone amongst the colonised.
The realisation of Western democracy as a consequence of WW II and its desire to distinguish itself from Fascism and Communism to its citizens meant that pressures towards equality, especially in terms of equal citizenship rights and to a lesser extent through the development of greater economic equality in the West through the establishment of welfare states, created a climate in which the retention of colonies lost any moral credibility and ceased to have any moral or political justification. As we know the process of decolonisation was not without its problems, but the dismantling of the old empires was remarkably swift. An important consequence internationally was that the UN grew in size and its many new members reinforced the development of an international climate in which colonies were unacceptable.
The creation of Israel came at the point at which colonisation was ceasing to be acceptable following India’s independence in 1947. Essentially, Israel was the last settler colony to be created. Ten years later it would have been impossible, because the forces of decolonisation and their association with democracy and non-ethnic self-determination, would have led to the establishment of a multi-ethnic Palestine. (Virtually all newly-independent states were multi-ethnic, so there was no truck with ethnic nationalism that has seemed obvious to Balfour and the racial values of his age). The consequence was that while the creation of Israel fitted in with the imperialist values of the previous century, those assumptions had come to an end at the cusp of its creation. It was an anomaly from the very start.
The upshot is, that while for many the establishment of Israel was linked culturally to the West at the time, it was a political culture that was quick passing, if not already past, so that in the course of time Israel has become less and less like a Western democracy. Indeed, the large-scale immigration from Russia and Eastern Europe, hot-beds of racism and a very weak or non-existent liberal history, have only served to accelerate the process. The exception, of course, is the increasing link with the United States, with its influential Jewish lobby, AIPAC, buttressed by red-neck Christianity, against the advice of the State Department concerned to protect US interests in the region.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: Their liberal and civilised lives are constructed on the back of an industrio-military structure which literally deprives a population of basic rights so another can have beautiful views and outdoor swimming pool.
Literally?
You are exaggerating in order to trivialise.
No doubt if you searched long enough could find the occasional rich Jew in Israel with a "beautiful view and and outdoor swimming pool", but my memory of Israelis is of them living in accommodation such as apartments and very modest houses, not all that different to that of the non-Jews, and all inferior even to my very ordinary (by Western standards) suburban home.
Like it or not, Israel for all its faults is, by Middle Eastern standards, extremely liberal and civilised, and it is extraordinary that it remains so, given the provocations it faces.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
No, no, no, that will not do. Planting settlements outside your borders and cutting the inhabitants off from their own farmlands is not liberal or civilised.
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: Literally?
You are exaggerating in order to trivialise.
No I am nor exaggerating. Go to Hebron and then tell me that the settlers' freedom is not due to a large number of other people living under extreme occupation.
I am not exaggerating. I've been there and seen it with my own eyes.
quote: No doubt if you searched long enough could find the occasional rich Jew in Israel with a "beautiful view and and outdoor swimming pool", but my memory of Israelis is of them living in accommodation such as apartments and very modest houses, not all that different to that of the non-Jews, and all inferior even to my very ordinary (by Western standards) suburban home.
Then, frankly, you don't know shit about the settlements. I've literally seen the swimming pools in the settlements built on stolen occupied land.
It is true that many Israelis don't live like this - but I never said that they all did. The fact is that the standard of living is much higher in Israel proper than in the West Bank, and much higher again in the settlements.
You can deny it as much as you like, it is still a fact.
quote:
Like it or not, Israel for all its faults is, by Middle Eastern standards, extremely liberal and civilised, and it is extraordinary that it remains so, given the provocations it faces.
Like it or not, that's irrelevant. As I was at pains to explain earlier.
-------------------- arse
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Rossweisse
 High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: No, no, no, that will not do. Planting settlements outside your borders and cutting the inhabitants off from their own farmlands is not liberal or civilised.
...to say nothing of cutting them off from medical care, or jobs, or throwing turds at them from above in their occupied cities...
-------------------- I'm not dead yet.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
My point in part is that it is illegitimate to single Israel out as specially bad among the community of nations. But perhaps it helps us to not look at ourselves as recently as the 1980s here.
It's also helpful to really be clear that Jews are not going to ever agree again to be ruled by anyone nor share power among ethnicities. It is a Jewish state, though not a very religious one.
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Rossweisse: quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: No, no, no, that will not do. Planting settlements outside your borders and cutting the inhabitants off from their own farmlands is not liberal or civilised.
...to say nothing of cutting them off from medical care, or jobs, or throwing turds at them from above in their occupied cities...
...or bulldozing homes...
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Rossweisse
 High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: ...or bulldozing homes...
That too.
-------------------- I'm not dead yet.
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: My point in part is that it is illegitimate to single Israel out as specially bad among the community of nations. But perhaps it helps us to not look at ourselves as recently as the 1980s here.
It's also helpful to really be clear that Jews are not going to ever agree again to be ruled by anyone nor share power among ethnicities. It is a Jewish state, though not a very religious one.
Giving lie to the idea that it's a secular democracy.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
There's no balance when discussing Israel is there? And no sense of history. It leads to no solutions. But it isn't over yet. With probable wish to keep the conflict going as proxy for global and regional powers.
But the singling out of Israel will not wash. He's they do bad things and so do Palestinians. But don't just discuss this year's or decade's conduct. Get the history of at least a lifetime if you want to discuss seriously.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
But the singling out of Israel will not wash. He's they do bad things and so do Palestinians. But don't just discuss this year's or decade's conduct. Get the history of at least a lifetime if you want to discuss seriously.
There is no comparison between the oppressed and the oppressor. This is like saying - yes, apartheid was bad in South Africa, but black people murder too.
-------------------- arse
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
You make the point Mr Cheesy. That's not even wrong.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
There is no similarity between the Palestinians who throw rocks to defend their homes and the Israeli military state. That's tummyrot.
-------------------- arse
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
Like I said, history. Let's begin 100 years ago when in 1917 the British promised the Jews a national homeland in Palestine, while simultaneously assuring the Palestinian Arabs that the pledge would not be carried out at their expense. Then let's try to understand why no-one has ever liked the Palestinians and the Jews.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: <snip> Like it or not, Israel for all its faults is, by Middle Eastern standards, extremely liberal and civilised
...if you are Jewish
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sioni Sais: quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: <snip> Like it or not, Israel for all its faults is, by Middle Eastern standards, extremely liberal and civilised
...if you are Jewish
You are safer as a non-Jew in Israel than as a Jew living under one of their Islamist enemies.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: quote: Originally posted by Sioni Sais: quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: <snip> Like it or not, Israel for all its faults is, by Middle Eastern standards, extremely liberal and civilised
...if you are Jewish
You are safer as a non-Jew in Israel than as a Jew living under one of their Islamist enemies.
And that justifies everything of course. It's just more whataboutery.
Settlements, Kaplan. Address the settlements. Explain why they, and all they entail, are justified.
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I wonder how dangerous it is to be a Jew in Iran. Clearly pretty dangerous in Syria and Iraq (I think there are less than a dozen left), impossible in Saudi etc and so on.
Compare that to the chance of death in Gaza, the risks of death and injury in the West Bank even the risks of being Arab in 1967 Israel.
Hard to do that comparison, of course. For one thing, Jews have somewhere else to go: Israel. For another, Israel has supported Jewish migration, so it isn't simple to see whether Jews have been forced out by the danger or have left for a better life in Israel.
But this is a morally dubious argument anyway: Israel can legitimately destroy the lives of Gazans because Jews are being discriminated against in Iraq and Syria..
-------------------- arse
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
Is this question flippable? are the settlements the only reason that Israel is considered to be anathema? what are all the others if there are others? It'd be good to see a list. [ 18. January 2018, 19:28: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Illegal settlements - with all the abuses that go along with them - aren't enough?
-------------------- arse
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: Illegal settlements - with all the abuses that go along with them - aren't enough?
Nonsense! Kaplan Corday is absolutely correct. Any Jewish abuses, some real but others imagined, totally pale in comparison to the evils and abuses done to them over AD history and if you look at the screwed UN and the sick Arab nurseries of extremism, none of whom give ANY freedoms taken for granted in the west, all of whom dominate their women, kill gays and on and on! I wonder how anyone dares cavil at a few settlements on DISPUTED not occupied land that was originally annexed by Jordan and only occupied after a war of aggression.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: Illegal settlements - with all the abuses that go along with them - aren't enough?
No, they aren't. We have the history of war from its neighbours, invasion, missile attacks, and the 100 years of escalated anti-Semitism culminating with genocide.
My heart bleeds for anyone who is under persecution. My father's family was twice refugee. I get it. Almost all of his family was killed. I get it.
There has to be real will to settle the thing. Which is about giving up things held dearly to heart. And it is will be painful. But both sides will have to experience the giving up. Along with all of the other countries agreeing to Israel's security. It is land for peace, and it nearly happened. Take another run at it.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: No, they aren't. We have the history of war from its neighbours, invasion, missile attacks, and the 100 years of escalated anti-Semitism culminating with genocide.
My heart bleeds for anyone who is under persecution. My father's family was twice refugee. I get it. Almost all of his family was killed. I get it.
OK. How is that relevant to a Palestinian family that has members imprisoned by a military they don't accept under laws they've had no opportunity to vote for, in protection of housing and land that is arbitrarily taken from them? If they have the unfortunate luck to be born Gazan, they don't even have the luxury of prison, they're simply killed.
I appreciate your family has a shitty history, but what has that got to do with the Palestinian family and why should this mean that it is acceptable to totally ignore their basic rights?
quote:
There has to be real will to settle the thing. Which is about giving up things held dearly to heart. And it is will be painful. But both sides will have to experience the giving up. Along with all of the other countries agreeing to Israel's security. It is land for peace, and it nearly happened. Take another run at it.
Once again, what actually are you suggesting the Palestinians give up? Why aren't you asking the oppressor to give up the occupation, to stop settlement expansion etc?
You are literally asking a population which has progressively had almost everything taken from them for the last 80 years to give up even more.
Why the fuck should they? What is so marvellous that you are offering that they should give up even more?
-------------------- arse
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
First off, the language has to change. You cannot call one side an oppressor and the other side a victim. You have to acknowledge that Israel was in the past targetted for destruction, and also sees itself as oppressed in the past. And it doesn't matter if the Palestinians see themselves as victims divorced from world history, because it haunts them anyway. The Palestinians have also been manipulated by other countries in the region.
The settlements in occupied areas should not be there, nor should there be destruction of homes, nor random and targetted shootings, and there should be rule of law. But it isn't going to happen unless the Palestinians accept a transitional situation of land for peace, give up most right of return etc. I suspect a Palestinian state might have been possible under international supervision in the past, but things are presently such that it'd be Israel. Terrible that past opportunity was wasted.
-------------------- Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety. \_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: First off, the language has to change. You cannot call one side an oppressor and the other side a victim.
I'm afraid you can. When Palestinians have the upper hand and break regularly into an occupied person's home to take away children to prison, feel free to call them oppressors.
The occupied Palestinian Territories are exactly that under international law. As such, the occupied population have certain rights, which are denied to them. In fact, not only do they not have those rights, their basic human rights are being further eroded by the expansion of settlements.
Says the UN, says international Human Rights organisations and says international jurists. If you day they're not, then you are arguing with all those authorities, not me.
quote:
You have to acknowledge that Israel was in the past targetted for destruction, and also sees itself as oppressed in the past.
Israel had several wars. But it is an extreme claim to suggest that Israel has ever been occupied in the way that the occupied Palestinian Territories are occupied. It hasn't.
quote: And it doesn't matter if the Palestinians see themselves as victims divorced from world history, because it haunts them anyway. The Palestinians have also been manipulated by other countries in the region.
No idea what this is supposed to mean: suspect nothing at all. Palestinians see themselves as many things because there are millions of them in many different circumstances. The fact is that many have refugee status as defined under international law and that the lands in question are occupied.
quote: The settlements in occupied areas should not be there, nor should there be destruction of homes, nor random and targetted shootings, and there should be rule of law. But it isn't going to happen unless the Palestinians accept a transitional situation of land for peace, give up most right of return etc.
And once again you simply fail to see that it is Israel which is preventing a viable Palestinian state and nobody else. Because Israel doesn't want a viable Palestinian state.
quote:
I suspect a Palestinian state might have been possible under international supervision in the past, but things are presently such that it'd be Israel. Terrible that past opportunity was wasted.
Terrible that Israel was allowed to ride roughshod over any hope of any possibility of a fair and just outcome, more like.
Look at a map: a Palestinian state is literally impossible today due to post-Oslo expansion of settlements. The problem is nothing about the rights to return and everything about the wish of Israel to colonise the occupied Palestinian Territories.
-------------------- arse
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no prophet's flag is set so...
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# 15560
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Posted
Well we're not going to agree, if you're not going to position the present-day situation within the history, viz., the Palestinians (and the nation states in the region) have not wanted Israel to exist. While we could debate which side hasn't wanted the other's nation to exist more, we are in agreement I think that Israel has the upper hand presently. Real politik will not get them to give it up unless there is something worthy to give it up for, and they were prepared to do so in terms of land for peace in several attempts per a UN resolution in 1967. It almost happened in 1993 with the Oslo agreement (I think this was the best chance since 1967) which was "land for peace" per the 1967 UN thing. But the Palestinians walked out: this was the West Bank and Gaza in exchange for peace, with a 5 year transition period. Someone suggested on these boards that it was a bad agreement and the Palestinians were justified in reneging. But I do not understand what they thought they might gain in addition to a Palestinian state in West Bank and Gaza, and how they might gain it (right of return is a non-starter for the Israelis and the Palestinians know this).
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is settlements so...: Well we're not going to agree, if you're not going to position the present-day situation within the history, viz., the Palestinians (and the nation states in the region) have not wanted Israel to exist. While we could debate which side hasn't wanted the other's nation to exist more, we are in agreement I think that Israel has the upper hand presently. Real politik will not get them to give it up unless there is something worthy to give it up for, and they were prepared to do so in terms of land for peace in several attempts per a UN resolution in 1967.
They weren't. Israel never agreed any such thing as shown by the constant building of settlements and undermining of Oslo. Palestinians hoped Oslo was a step towards nationhood as expressed by world powers in the "two state solution". Israel made sure this could never happen.
quote: It almost happened in 1993 with the Oslo agreement (I think this was the best chance since 1967) which was land for peace" per the 1967 UN thing.
But Oslo offered no land. Israel offered nothing and before long it became clear that they only see the PA as a vassal and temporary power - to be supported only as far as it offers no real threat or organisation against the occupation. Meanwhile settlements expand.
quote:
But the Palestinians walked out: this was the West Bank and Gaza in exchange for peace, with a 5 year transition period. Someone suggested on these boards that it ways a bad agreement and the Palestinians were justified in reneging. But I do not understand what they thought they might gain in addition to a Palestinian state in West Bank and Gaza, and how they might gain it (right of return is a non-starter for the Israelis and the Palestinians know this).
Palestinians walked out. Yeah of course they did, that's why the Oslo Accord never happened. Oh wait. [ 19. January 2018, 06:46: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
-------------------- arse
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
The Palestinians have compromised by giving up more than 50% of their pre-1948 land for Israel.
In return the refugees should be financially compensated and allowed to run a fully operational state within the 1967 borders.
If that's not on the table, there is nothing to comprise for or about.
-------------------- arse
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: For that matter, you are safer as a Muslim and an Arab in Israel than you would be in many Arab and/or Muslim countries.
https://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/arabsinisrael/index.htm
Really, Kaplan Corday, is that an objective source?
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
How about this for a totally ridiculous situation.
Man in UK with no papers claims to be Palestinian and seeks asylum. Authorities claim that he can't prove he is stateless (Palestine is not a state) and dispute he is from Gaza.
So they send him papers telling him to go home immediately - to Gaza. The place they said he wasn't from.
The best part is that he tried to go back twice - but he can't as he has.. no papers. A Palestinian passport could be issued in Jordan, however he can't get there to apply, and even if he could that document would be useless for getting to Gaza. For which he'd need an ID, validated by the Israeli military, showing that he had been consistently living at an address, which he obviously hasn't.
Also - who the hell claims to be from Gaza when they're not? Why would anyone do that and risk (by magic, presumably) actually having to live in that prison?
Madness. And not a unique case.
-------------------- arse
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
And before anyone says - being stateless, rejected for asylum but impossible to be sent back anywhere is a position nobody would volunteer to do.
You get no help, because you don't have refugee status. You can't work. You're not entitled to healthcare, you exist on the generosity of others, waiting as your mental health disintegrates whilst the authorities continue to threaten to remove you whilst they simultaneously know that they can't.
I understand that some are overdue for appointments with Immigration in Croydon, so they risk being arrested. But at the same time nobody wants to take them to a Removal centre, because there would clearly be nowhere for them to go to.
-------------------- arse
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: The Palestinians have compromised by giving up more than 50% of their pre-1948 land for Israel.
In return the refugees should be financially compensated and allowed to run a fully operational state within the 1967 borders.
If that's not on the table, there is nothing to comprise for or about.
Just keep saying this mr c.
-------------------- Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Martin60: quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: The Palestinians have compromised by giving up more than 50% of their pre-1948 land for Israel.
In return the refugees should be financially compensated and allowed to run a fully operational state within the 1967 borders.
If that's not on the table, there is nothing to comprise for or about.
Just keep saying this mr c.
And Kaplan Corday, & co along with he Likudniks will continue to ignore it.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
 Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: The Palestinians have compromised by giving up more than 50% of their pre-1948 land for Israel.
In return the refugees should be financially compensated and allowed to run a fully operational state within the 1967 borders.
If that's not on the table, there is nothing to comprise for or about.
The British arbitrarily shrove off Jordan didn't they? From the Palestine mandate. We can't simplify like you would wish.
As for specify stories of suffering, settlement of the political problems are not based on individual stories ever, regardless of well meaning Christian desires to bring the story of an individual Jesus as the Way.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Martin60: Just keep saying this mr c.
That's right, keep up the pressure on those bloody uppity Jews.
Who do they think they are, demanding what's their own land anyway, and wanting to live safely in it?
And paranoid, too.
After all, it's not as if they've got any reason to think anyone's ever had anything against them.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Bloody uppity Australian aborigines ...
Bloody uppity Native Americans ...
You can see where I'm going, can't you, Kaplan?
Or perhaps you can't?
It'd be great if Jews and Arabs could live together peacefully Inna land they share equally.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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quote: Gamaliel: It'd be great if Jews and Arabs could live together peacefully Inna land they share equally.
It would, indeed! And I wouldn't accuse you of being naive about its possibility, Gamaliel! The problem is that it's difficult to conceive of the institutional framework needed to realise this without Israel surrendering its Jewish identity. We can share a land equally as individual citizens with common rights but not as segregated ethnic groups.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure. Which is what makes the whole thing so intractable.
It'd be a bit like the Welsh saying, 'Hey, we used to own the rest of "The Island of The Mighty", therefore we ought to boot the English out of Swanage, Peterborough, Birmingham, Brighton and Carlisle ...'
Ok, not a perfect analogy, nobody has been undertaking pogroms against the Welsh or try to wipe them out, but you get my drift.
I wonder what Kaplan's view would be if whatever Aboriginal tribe used to occupy his particular corner of the land of Oz suddenly won legal rights to reoccupy it and to kick him and his missus out of their house?
Would he take that with equanimity?
'Ah well, my modest suburban semi occupied their ancestral lands, so it's only right and fair that I should now fuck off out of it ...'
I don't know what the answer is, I really don't.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kaplan Corday: quote: Originally posted by Martin60: Just keep saying this mr c.
That's right, keep up the pressure on those bloody uppity Jews.
Who do they think they are, demanding what's their own land anyway, and wanting to live safely in it?
And paranoid, too.
After all, it's not as if they've got any reason to think anyone's ever had anything against them.
FFS the "problem" is not the Jews or Judaism. The problem is the Netanyahu government and specifically its policy of stealing land from those who formerly lived there.
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yes, but the Netanyahu government has to be given a free pass on that, Sioni because the Jews have been treated shittily for millenia and because the surrounding Arab nations are barbaric and full of Islamofascists.
Therefore Netanyahu can do what the hell he likes in terms of evicting people from their homes and taking other people's land.
Get with the programme ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
 Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Netanyahu's brother Yonathon was killed at Uganda's Entebbe airport in 1976 when Israeli forces attacked the hijackers of an Air France flight carrying mostly Jews which had been diverted there. The Ugandan gov't like other countries' before had supported the hijackers.
A longer view of history is required.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Sure. I didn't know his brother had died at Entebbe.
But yes, a longer perspective is needed. How long though? 1948? 1848? AD 48, 48 BC, 480 BC, 1480 BC ...
Whatever the case, Netanyahu didn't invent the current policies but is building on what went before.
But he's the guy we are dealing with now.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: Netanyahu's brother Yonathon was killed at Uganda's Entebbe airport in 1976 when Israeli forces attacked the hijackers of an Air France flight carrying mostly Jews which had been diverted there. The Ugandan gov't like other countries' before had supported the hijackers.
A longer view of history is required.
I knew about that. What is needed is a nuanced view, not an entire political program based on cherry-picked historical events.
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
 Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
But that's precisely what the Israel is wrong Palestinians are right theme does. History is made of collections of individual events, and the broad things that leaders affect. The settlements in occupied territories are both a big deal and also another specific cherry.
In terms of what length of time to focus on as current history, I'd suggest since 1921 or 22 when Turkey and Greece expelled millions from each other's territories, when the American president Wilson's ideas of self determination destroyed the concepts of multi-ethnic, multi-language federated states like Austria-Hungry and the Ottoman Empire, Britain and France divided up the Middle East and drew lines on maps.
A second demarcation line is 1948 with the UN creation of Israel. A third is the attack on Israel of 1967 and the steady terror against it thereafter.
We would also need to understand western countries' support of despotic regimes because of oil and self-enrichment, and the related failures of social, economic and politcial progress because that's how we want it.
In my view the Palestinians are useful and used as players in the game that continued following the fin de siècle Great Game which ended with WW1, well mostly (they continued in south east Asia).
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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