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Source: (consider it) Thread: Oprah 2020
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
RuthW, I'm not particularly happy with the idea that high office should be seen as a reward for somebody who has dedicated their life to public service. Two of the really essential prerequisites for high office should be governmental competence and personal integrity.

I'm not looking at the presidency as a reward for public service - I'm looking at it as something that should be done by someone who wants to serve the public and has experience in doing so, which would encompass governmental competence.

Personal integrity -- well, yeah. The problem is, I think, that to aspire to such a powerful position one has to have an ego the size of all outdoors, and that tends to work against having personal integrity.

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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
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I think my view here is coloured by living in France.

Emmanuel Macron is possibly the most arrogant man alive*. Nonetheless, no major ethical dirt has turned up on him thus far. The rumour, repeated by Marine Lepen, about offshore bank accounts, was bona fide invented by Russia fake news. He sued her.

Manu also colours my perception because he is forty years old. Do the Democrats really have no one they can turn to under the age of 65?

I don’t think Macron is the perfect President. But I do think France is on healthier and more democratic track than lots of other countries.

*This is not a bad thing in all circumstances. When sitting down with Vlad Putin, for example, there is definite usefulness in what we shall politely describe as his “supreme self-confidence”.

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Personal integrity -- well, yeah. The problem is, I think, that to aspire to such a powerful position one has to have an ego the size of all outdoors, and that tends to work against having personal integrity.

In one of his post-election interviews, Obama said that to be (or run for?) president, you have to have a big ego. And, if you don't know that about yourself, you shouldn't run.

IOW, have a big ego, but be aware of it and own it.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
So sad. But so true. But hey, maybe the US can learn from from the UK, and do the right thing, once it has exhausted all other possibilities. One lives in hope.

In what possible sense of those four words is the UK doing the right thing? We have a useless government led by a woman who can't manage her own Cabinet, an opposition led by a superannuated polytechnic radical who's got this fantasy that he's Lenin, while all those who have anything sensible to offer have been hollowed out of the system and nobody in Parliament who's any good is on either front bench.

[ 12. January 2018, 08:41: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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Brenda Clough
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
So sad. But so true. But hey, maybe the US can learn from from the UK, and do the right thing, once it has exhausted all other possibilities. One lives in hope.

In what possible sense of those four words is the UK doing the right thing? We have a useless government led by a woman who can't manage her own Cabinet, an opposition led by a superannuated polytechnic radical who's got this fantasy that he's Lenin, while all those who have anything sensible to offer have been hollowed out of the system and nobody in Parliament who's any good is on either front bench.
This is unfortunate, I agree. But our plight in the US is so horrific, so abyssal, that every sensible American would rather be in your shoes.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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SecondRateMind
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
So sad. But so true. But hey, maybe the US can learn from from the UK, and do the right thing, once it has exhausted all other possibilities. One lives in hope.

In what possible sense of those four words is the UK doing the right thing? We have a useless government led by a woman who can't manage her own Cabinet, an opposition led by a superannuated polytechnic radical who's got this fantasy that he's Lenin, while all those who have anything sensible to offer have been hollowed out of the system and nobody in Parliament who's any good is on either front bench.
I entirely share your concerns. But we have, in the past, done the right thing, (eg, stopping Hitler) once we have done the wrong things first, (eg, appeasement). It may well be that we are in the 'exhausting all other possibilities' mode right now.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, I would have thought that the UK is at a kind of nadir at the moment. I'm not sure if it's any comfort that things might get better, well, maybe. But we are here now, in the deep doodoo, with people dying in hospital corridors. I suppose I should think of an AA maxim, that you have to hit the bottom.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
I entirely share your concerns. But we have, in the past, done the right thing, (eg, stopping Hitler) once we have done the wrong things first, (eg, appeasement). It may well be that we are in the 'exhausting all other possibilities' mode right now.

That's over 70 years ago. Claiming that the world owes us a favour because our parents and grandparents did something good before we were born has been a preposterous delusion. It has been a key contributor to the ridiculous sense of entitlement, that everything will turn out all right 'because you're worth it'.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
... Personal integrity -- well, yeah. The problem is, I think, that to aspire to such a powerful position one has to have an ego the size of all outdoors, and that tends to work against having personal integrity.

Yes, that is a tension. However, I don't think that should inhibit us from both demanding it and judging politicians, severely if necessary, on whether they have managed it, or cracked under the temptations of office. After all, plenty of politicians, even quite mediocre ones in other respects, have made a reasonable showing on this.

When it comes to the Orange Cookie-Monstrosity, both before he was elected and since, all the evidence has been that he has a huge ego but neither understands nor cares about the other concept.


On Oprah for President, as yet the issues are different. As I said,
quote:
Two of the really essential prerequisites for high office should be governmental competence and personal integrity.

I don't know enough about Oprah Winfrey to know how she stands on the second, but as far as I'm aware, she's not so far done anything that would provide any evidence of the first.

The notion that she's suitable to be President because she makes the right noises and represents the right causes is not enough. The world has seen all too many 'symbolic' political leaders, who succeed in gaining office because they convince the public that it wants what they claim to represent irrespective of whether they either have the competence to deliver, or even can be bothered to. That's the appeal of the Orange Cookie-Monstrosity with his 'drain the swamp'. It's also the appeal of the late Hugo Chavez, both Juan and in due course Evita Perón, and our own Jeremy Corbyn. There's no reason at the moment to believe Oprah would be anything more than another of them.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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SecondRateMind
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
I entirely share your concerns. But we have, in the past, done the right thing, (eg, stopping Hitler) once we have done the wrong things first, (eg, appeasement). It may well be that we are in the 'exhausting all other possibilities' mode right now.

That's over 70 years ago. Claiming that the world owes us a favour because our parents and grandparents did something good before we were born has been a preposterous delusion. It has been a key contributor to the ridiculous sense of entitlement, that everything will turn out all right 'because you're worth it'.
Nowhere have I made such a claim, and I defy you to quote me where I did. Whilst I entirely uphold your right to protest, there is a point at which criticism becomes psychotic. If you think the UK such a bad place to be, you are entirely free to go elsewhere. If you choose your destination wisely, you might even benefit from better weather. But when you have lived elsewhere for a while, I think you might find that the UK, for all it's problems, isn't such a bad place, after all.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Enoch
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SRM, by citing as your example, the one you've chosen, I think you are making that claim. Hardly anyone now living can claim any personal pride in or credit for, having been any part of that. Even a person called up in the last months of the war is now, if still alive, 90.

And I wasn't saying the UK was a terrible place to be - though the xenophobic morons who are on the up at the moment are pushing it in that direction. I was challenging your statement,
quote:
But hey, maybe the US can learn from from the UK, and do the right thing, once it has exhausted all other possibilities.
I can't see any basis for it. To put it as politely as I can, it's delusional and dangerously so.

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SecondRateMind
Apprentice
# 18898

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Hmmm. I think it is a lack of compatible sense of humour that separates us, rather than any substantial issue.

But to put my contention as to British government policy in pseudocode:
code:
10.  Let X be the number of wrong things to do.
20. For (i = 1 to X)
30. Do the wrong thing
40. If (public acquiescent)
50. Stop
60. Else
70. Load next i/wrong thing
80. End if
90. End for
100. Do the right thing
110. Stop

I am simply suggesting that not all nations have yet cottoned onto the fact that it is line 100 that justifies the iteration of lines 20 - 90. And that the UK, broadly speaking, given it's popular allegiance to ethical determinations, has.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Ohher
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# 18607

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I think line 40 is problematic. First, the "public" is not a monolith; it generally separates into competing and even mutually-exclusive factions.

Second, even if it were, the "public" does not always "want" the Right Thing. To return to your historical example, look at the difficulty Britain had in persuading the US to get involved in WWII. Look at the US's turning away of Jewish refugees.

Third, working one's way through all the "wrong" options first does not ameliorate the damage those wrong things wreak. That the US eventually joined in bringing Hitler down did nothing to save the lives of those refugees.

Ends do not justify means.

[ 13. January 2018, 13:47: Message edited by: Ohher ]

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
And that the UK, broadly speaking, given it's popular allegiance to ethical determinations, has.

I'm not sure what this even means, and even if it exists, it exists alongside a load of willful blindness.

quote:


If you think the UK such a bad place to be, you are entirely free to go elsewhere. If you choose your destination wisely

And frankly this bit of nonsense makes my blood boil - there are all sorts of reasons why people are 'stuck' in the country that they are in - simply asserting that they should move if they don't like it is wrong at every scale.

[ 13. January 2018, 14:18: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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Enoch
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# 14322

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2RM, I can't see what this has to do with whether our senses of humour are mutually compatibility. There's nothing in this exchange that enables you to guess anything about what I find funny, nor me to guess anything about what you do.

I agree with Ohher's criticism of your Basic and with what Chris Stiles has said.

Besides, what about the maxim 'get it right first time'?

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Was Ronald Reagan the start of celebrity as your leader? Yet people seem to think he was great. But history had not judged increases in military spending, various between rich and poor. Destructive social and economic policies. I this sense the current president Sh**hole is merely Reagan with honesty on steriods.

The fact that people even begin to think that such as Oprah could lead signifies the emotional, nonlogical degeneration of a political system. Do we get leadsrs we deserve?

[ 13. January 2018, 15:36: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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SecondRateMind
Apprentice
# 18898

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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
I think line 40 is problematic...

Indeed, one could refine the algorithm in many ways, to make it more accurate. Doubtless this forum hosts many politically aware programmers who could do so. But there is virtue in simplicity, and I was really only seeking a congenial manner to bring an end to a disagreeable public spat.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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SecondRateMind
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# 18898

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


Besides, what about the maxim 'get it right first time'?

I entirely applaud this sentiment. Only problem is, we tend to have to make mistakes in order to learn by them.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Huia
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# 3473

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quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


Besides, what about the maxim 'get it right first time'?

I entirely applaud this sentiment. Only problem is, we tend to have to make mistakes in order to learn by them.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Just because a county, or a person makes mistakes doesn't mean they learn by them. As for the argument, that you can leave if you don't like it, that would suggest that people who criticise their country are always wrong, and don't like it, neither of which are necessarily true.

I love my country (NZ), and am not the least interested in leaving it. Any criticisms I make are aimed at challenging structures that I see as unjust or dysfunctional such as poverty, one of the developed word's highest youth suicide rates, and an appalling level of domestic violence.

I am not going to pretend any of those things are acceptable.

Huia

--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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SecondRateMind
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# 18898

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
And frankly this bit of nonsense makes my blood boil - there are all sorts of reasons why people are 'stuck' in the country that they are in - simply asserting that they should move if they don't like it is wrong at every scale.

Of course it is. But a nation, like an individual's decision regarding domicile, is a compromise. If you can't compromise, don't expect my sympathy. It's the way life is. Get used to it.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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SecondRateMind
Apprentice
# 18898

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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Any criticisms I make are aimed at challenging structures that I see as unjust or dysfunctional such as poverty, one of the developed word's highest youth suicide rates, and an appalling level of domestic violence.

I am not going to pretend any of those things are acceptable.

Huia

I am all for picking out specific issues to tackle in the interests of progress. What I am against is a self-indulgent, lazy, general attitude of dissatisfaction. If you really want change, be the change you want to see (as someone famous once said). Or go away. Just don't carp at people who are doing their utmost to make their country a better place for their children than they grew up in.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
And frankly this bit of nonsense makes my blood boil - there are all sorts of reasons why people are 'stuck' in the country that they are in - simply asserting that they should move if they don't like it is wrong at every scale.

Of course it is. But a nation, like an individual's decision regarding domicile, is a compromise. If you can't compromise, don't expect my sympathy. It's the way life is. Get used to it.

I reject this attitude entirely. Yes, of course nations are a compromise, but just telling people to suck it up is ridiculous. People have every right, and I would probably go so far as to say the duty, to point out features of their country that they consider subpar, and to campaign for them to change.

Anything else frankly stinks of I'm-alright-Jackery.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
If you really want change, be the change you want to see (as someone famous once said). Or go away. Just don't carp at people who are doing their utmost to make their country a better place for their children than they grew up in.

If you are doing your utmost to improve the country, but what you are doing is stupid, I will applaud your motivation whilst criticizing your methods. Being engaged is great, but it's not a get-out-of-jail-free card. Doing something isn't always better than doing nothing, if the something is counterproductive.
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SecondRateMind
Apprentice
# 18898

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I reject this attitude entirely. Yes, of course nations are a compromise, but just telling people to suck it up is ridiculous. People have every right, and I would probably go so far as to say the duty, to point out features of their country that they consider subpar, and to campaign for them to change.

As I said, and you ignored:

quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
I am all for picking out specific issues to tackle in the interests of progress. What I am against is a self-indulgent, lazy, general attitude of dissatisfaction.

Maybe we are not disagreeing, after all.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Gramps49
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Nope Trump will not win. He has the lowest approval rate among all classes except lower class white males. He is also losing ground with lower class working women primarily because he is trying to take their insurance away and reducing food stamps which they rely on to keep their children fed and protected. The latest foot in the mouth episode is really causing a rile around here.
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Gramps49
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Just watched an interview with Kamala Harris. Interesting. She has been called a female Obama but seems smarter. Quite a family history. Yes, she will be on my watch list. Did I say she is Gen X?

[URL=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamala_Harris ]Wiki article[/URL]

[ 13. January 2018, 23:37: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:

quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
I am all for picking out specific issues to tackle in the interests of progress. What I am against is a self-indulgent, lazy, general attitude of dissatisfaction.


I didn't see the post you were responding to as being self-indulgent and lazy, or indeed characteristic of a 'criticism that becomes psychotic'.

Perhaps you could point to examples of any of the above, at the moment it comes across as empty rhetoric.

[ 13. January 2018, 23:52: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Just watched an interview with Kamala Harris. Interesting. She has been called a female Obama but seems smarter. Quite a family history. Yes, she will be on my watch list. Did I say she is Gen X?

[URL=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamala_Harris ]Wiki article[/URL]

Yes. That is interesting. You'll know she's a serious threat when somebody starts to claim she wasn't really born in California.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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SecondRateMind
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# 18898

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:

quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
I am all for picking out specific issues to tackle in the interests of progress. What I am against is a self-indulgent, lazy, general attitude of dissatisfaction.


I didn't see the post you were responding to as being self-indulgent and lazy, or indeed characteristic of a 'criticism that becomes psychotic'.

Perhaps you could point to examples of any of the above, at the moment it comes across as empty rhetoric.

I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone, just stating what I am for, and what I am against. If you take such a critcism personally, I can't help that, and if the cap fits, wear it.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
I wasn't pointing the finger at anyone, just stating what I am for, and what I am against. If you take such a critcism personally, I can't help that, and if the cap fits, wear it.

Right. Which confirms my suspicion; you tried a version of 'suck it up, buttercup' to breeze through an argument and got called on it.
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