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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The opiate of the people.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
I deeply regret responding to you second rate and assure you that I shall not make the same mistake in future.
Fair enough. Your responses thus far have not been very helpful, anyway. But nevertheless, I hope you have a nice life.
Best wishes, 2RM.
You do.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
No, that would mean that the giving is the important bit, rather than some poor bugger actually being helped. That's not love and care, that's getting a warm fuzzy and conscience salving. I'd be really disappointed if Jesus were like that.
Hmmm. I'd be disappointed if giving wasn't important. Seems to me that while there are people in need, succour is good, not only for the people that receive, but also for the spiritual statue of those with the courage and humanity to donate. I take your point though, that donating for some perceived personal benefit is not charity, just self-interest.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
...but also for the spiritual statue...
Should read, spiritual stature.
We really need more time to edit typos.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
We really need more time to edit typos.
We have infinite time to edit typos. It's called "Preview Post."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
The point being, that I can justifiably say, if everyone lived as I do, there would be no poor among us. ie, I generally comply with both Jesus' Golden Rule, to do unto others as I might wish to be done by, and Kant's categorical imperative, to act according to the maxim as I might wish to be the general rule.
Not many people in the rich, allegedly Christian, West, can claim that. Your opprobrium might better be aimed at millionaires who hog the wealth others need for a decent standard of living.
Best wishes, 2RM
well no, because the money isn't there for everyone to live as you do - because even on your own sums a lot of that would need to be siphoned off for infrastructure and services*. Which means the true sum available for each person is probably some way below what you're living on. You're an exploiter, just of a lesser category than the billionaires.
... So you're still (relatively) profiteering.
Well, yes and no. The Credit Suisse estimate of the world's wealth at $241 trillion is a financial one, covering discretionary wealth. It's liquid assets, that can be spent, saved, or traded. In that sense you are quite right. And, infrastructure is a sunk cost, a public good, from which I will readily admit I benefit considerably, but which I have no personal control over.
Nevertheless, the clue is in the word 'discretionary'. This is the wealth that could, relatively easily, be distributed more equitably. All that is required is for people with a greater net worth than $X/Z, or a greater income than $Y/Z, to give the excess to people with lesser resources. That might not solve all the world's inequities, but it would be a pretty good first attempt, to be refined and perfected in due course.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That's nice dear.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You do.
Indeed so. And I can, without any inconsistency, commend it to anyone and everyone.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Major problems are who has the money, how it is redistributed from those who have lots of it to those who don't, why we should or shouldn't force the issue. Myself, I think we have to force the issue by tax laws, regulations and enforcement.
I'd start off by addressing homelessness by taxing and regulating non-resident real estate ownership. I'd follow it up with getting the large corporations out of government, stop sponsoring and getting naming rights etc to anything, and pay this in taxes instead so we can pay for public service. We must ensure we do not privatise profit and socialize debt. As for military, obviously the oil companies need to pay for it, and also for cleaning up carbon pollution.
Hmmm. I'm not generally in favour of 'compulsory virtue'. Nevertheless, I think there is a case to be made for it here, given the dire consequences of global inequality. But, as a first step, I would prefer to see the simple public attitude towards excesses of wealth change. When we cease to admire such excesses, and instead disparage and denigrate them, then I think we would be making progress towards both the voluntary and compulsory redistribution of the world's resources.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Society is compulsory virtue. It cannot exist without it. For all our moral codes, we are good only because we have to be. When societal rules fail, chaos is inevitable.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
...while we're waiting for the world to get its act together, we can donate for *free* at click-to-donate sites. A couple of examples:
Free Rice.
There are quizzes on all sorts of things.
quote:
For each answer you get right, we donate 10 grains of rice to the United Nations World Food Program.
You can brush up on things you once knew, and learn new things. It can be addictive.
Greater Good.
This is an umbrella site for several click-to-donate pages, including The Hunger Site. You can also buy things that will benefit the different causes.
Care2.
There are all sorts of ways to do good here. Click-to-donate is on the "Causes" pull-down menu. You can get reward points for things like sending Care2 e-cards. (On the "Healthy Living" menu.) Once you earn enough points, you can use them to buy something for a charity. And there's also a link to their petition site.
I've used each of these, at various times. They're especially nice if you want to give to charity, but can't afford it. (And, as in the OP, if you're a sports "couch potato", you can use these sites during commercials! ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
There are vast amounts of money spent on weapons which would be better spent on basics for people, by our own governments. Sport is surely better than conflict.
Agreed. The only thing is, it's not either/or. Judging by the ridiculous pay-scales of soccer players in my small country, and ongoing conflicts around the world, we seem to have too much of both. If there is a relationship such that more sport correlates to less conflict, I have yet to see it statistically proven. What might more plausibly reduce conflict is the eradication of economic inequalities, between nations, and between individuals.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
There are many virtues. It's virtuous to stand up for justice and to work toward a better world for all people. This is possible while also watching TV at times.
Also agreed.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You do.
Indeed so. And I can, without any inconsistency, commend it to anyone and everyone.
Best wishes, 2RM.
That's nice dear.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Society is compulsory virtue. It cannot exist without it. For all our moral codes, we are good only because we have to be. When societal rules fail, chaos is inevitable.
lilBuddha, I like your posts. Nevertheless, I prefer to think society is more about the prohibition of destructive vice, rather than the enforcement of virtue. Provided no-one else is harmed by their eccentricities, (which cannot be said of hoarding wealth), I will parade in the streets with a suitable banner protesting the right of anyone to go to Hell in their own damned way.
Let virtue be it's own reward, and the preserve of those who know its cost, and value.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...while we're waiting for the world to get its act together, we can donate for *free* at click-to-donate sites.
Lend With Care funds loans made by microfinance companies in the developing world. I'm not trying to persuade you to try it (well, a bit) but it's made me think more about motivating giving. There are pictures on the site of people wanting loans, a couple of paragraphs about what they do and why they want the money.
This has several effects: you are supporting specific individuals, you can choose who you support maybe because you identify at some level with them and their problems. You get some feedback and the money can be invested over and over again (only a handful my loans have defaulted).
Giving a few quid to DEC or Oxfam now and then is almost a conditioned response for a lot of us. But there is something about feeling some, however slight, connection with specific people which to me seems different.
Is it a good way to encourage people? Or just a misguided paternalism? I can't decide - but at a selfish level it's become more important to me that what I give to other causes.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Society is compulsory virtue. It cannot exist without it. For all our moral codes, we are good only because we have to be. When societal rules fail, chaos is inevitable.
lilBuddha, I like your posts. Nevertheless, I prefer to think society is more about the prohibition of destructive vice, rather than the enforcement of virtue. Provided no-one else is harmed by their eccentricities, (which cannot be said of hoarding wealth), I will parade in the streets with a suitable banner protesting the right of anyone to go to Hell in their own damned way.
Let virtue be it's own reward, and the preserve of those who know its cost, and value.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Now we how your priorities are skewed.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Now we how your priorities are skewed.
That's nice, dear.
Best wishes, 2RM.
[ 17. January 2018, 10:34: Message edited by: SecondRateMind ]
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Marvellous. So why did you raise the OP? You know what you think but you just wanted to know what others think?
About our collective problem, an important issue that we all know that in a fundamental way that you are hitting on, and one that's uncomfortable for us?
Whatever that is?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
Is it a good way to encourage people? Or just a misguided paternalism? I can't decide - but at a selfish level it's become more important to me that what I give to other causes.
There's been extensive discussion on the effectiveness of microfinance in its various forms on a number of effective altruism forums. For some more on this consider the comment on this blog post together with the post itself http://insights.careinternational.org.uk/development-blog/private-sector-engagement/is-peer-to-peer-lending-an-efficient-way- to-support-microfinance-and-to-achieve-development-objectives
Leaving these aside, the problem with the LWC model is that there is a definite bias towards western ideas of a 'deserving poor' and a bias towards comfortable/easy to understand narratives [see the issues with donating animals such as goats/donkeys etc. which used to be all the rage a few years back]
[ 17. January 2018, 10:49: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Marvellous. So why did you raise the OP? You know what you think but you just wanted to know what others think?
About our collective problem, an important issue that we all know that in a fundamental way that you are hitting on, and one that's uncomfortable for us?
Whatever that is?
Ah! It speaks! In (semi)grammatical sentences! Maybe, if we poke it some more, it will think, as well.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
SecondRateMind:
Careful now, you're nearly a Shipmate ...
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
Thanks for the link, chris, it seems to be saying 'more could be done' rather than 'this is bad'. With which I agree. The posted comment also seems quite reasonable. I don't know what any of the organisations have done in the 4 years since the post was made.
there is a definite bias towards western ideas of a 'deserving poor' and a bias towards comfortable/easy to understand narratives [see the issues with donating animals such as goats/donkeys etc. which used to be all the rage a few years back]
True but I was thinking more of how people might be motivated to give rather suggesting a model for all donors. I agree that I might choose borrowers who want something I also think has value (though sometimes not). What is the alternative? Don't microloan organisations themselves have a view: do they lend to those they consider as undeserving poor?
Donating goats/donkeys is a bit different surely. In LWC, individuals say they want a goat and will pay for it - it isn't a donation.
I agree it isn't clear cut, and I'm not suggesting it as a one size fits all solution. But if people are to give up some buying in favour of giving they must be motivated in some way. This does it for me.
What would you suggest?
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Some churches (Our Place is one) have 'link missionaries', working in a specific field e.g. building/maintaining an orphanage.
This sort of thing focusses the mind, as it were, and gives people something concrete (often literally!) towards which to contribute.
Alternatively, there may be a special effort made (during Lent, perhaps) to encourage people to give to a designated charity or missionary effort.
(BTW - @Sioni Sais, should I buy the popcorn soon?).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Eliab
Host
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
Ah! It speaks! In (semi)grammatical sentences! Maybe, if we poke it some more, it will think, as well.
We have a Hell board on which personal attacks are allowed. You can go there, start a thread called "Calling N to Hell", and accuse them of obscurity, idiocy, or incivility at your discretion.
It's good form, though not required, to send them a PM alerting them to the Hell thread.
Personal attacks are not allowed on any other board. This is a rule you agreed to when you signed up. Please comply with it.
Eliab
Purgatory host
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
there is a definite bias towards western ideas of a 'deserving poor' and a bias towards comfortable/easy to understand narratives [see the issues with donating animals such as goats/donkeys etc. which used to be all the rage a few years back]
True but I was thinking more of how people might be motivated to give rather suggesting a model for all donors. I agree that I might choose borrowers who want something I also think has value (though sometimes not). What is the alternative? Don't microloan organisations themselves have a view: do they lend to those they consider as undeserving poor?
Donating goats/donkeys is a bit different surely. In LWC, individuals say they want a goat and will pay for it - it isn't a donation.
The donkey/goat example was meant to illustrate how the attractiveness of a particular narrative can skew what people will give towards. In the same way there are probably certain types of lending appeals that are more attractive purely because their narrative is compelling.
This kind of direct P2P lending is going to suffer from similar biases to hiring people.
It may be worth looking into the effective altruism movement - even if you don't accept their conclusions, the issues and debate raised can be useful to pondering over these ideas.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
Ah! It speaks! In (semi)grammatical sentences! Maybe, if we poke it some more, it will think, as well.
We have a Hell board on which personal attacks are allowed. You can go there, start a thread called "Calling N to Hell", and accuse them of obscurity, idiocy, or incivility at your discretion.
It's good form, though not required, to send them a PM alerting them to the Hell thread.
Personal attacks are not allowed on any other board. This is a rule you agreed to when you signed up. Please comply with it.
Eliab
Purgatory host
I apologise. I will try to do better, in future.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Marvellous. So why did you raise the OP? You know what you think but you just wanted to know what others think?
About our collective problem, an important issue that we all know that in a fundamental way that you are hitting on, and one that's uncomfortable for us?
Whatever that is?
Ah! It speaks! In (semi)grammatical sentences! Maybe, if we poke it some more, it will think, as well.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Touché mon brave. Sorry to have provoked an apparent ad hominem. Please think for me.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Touché mon brave. Sorry to have provoked an apparent ad hominem. Please think for me.
A most gracious reply, that I am not at all sure I deserve. Truces and olive branches and pure white doves from me to you. But I would still prefer for you to think for yourself, with all your knowledge and experience brought to bear, than that you delegated the task to me.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Nice one, Martin.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Nice one, Martin...
Maybe, but then, my intention is not to score petty points, merely to raise a topic for debate that might, just, save lives and save the world. If you're not supportive of that, then you are part of the problem, not the solution.
But I would prefer not to think that of you. So, I tend to err on the presumption of righteousness.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif) ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
[ 17. January 2018, 14:11: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I have to ask, Martin60, are you capable of expressing yourself in cogent English?
And Bishops Finger, do you have a point to make, pertinent to the theme of the thread, or is the best you can do, to mock?
Best wishes, 2RM.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes.
But I have better things to do with my time.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Society is compulsory virtue. It cannot exist without it. For all our moral codes, we are good only because we have to be. When societal rules fail, chaos is inevitable.
lilBuddha, I like your posts. Nevertheless, I prefer to think society is more about the prohibition of destructive vice, rather than the enforcement of virtue.
So you are saying that you are cool with compulsory morality, but only to a certain point? That is only a matter of degree.
Don’t kill each other and take care of each other are not different things. They are what is necessary for a stable society.
And most religions, including Christianity, are compulsory morality. You are a decent human being* because your parents, and society, used compulsory morality.
*Making an assumption here, of course.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Addendum to my last post.
We evolved to be in small, hunter-gatherer groups. The natural sympathy/empathy we have is related to that. Small groups. In order to function in societies of hundreds, then thousands, then millions and now billions; we had to learn behaviours that allow us to function together. Caring for people you have no contact with, or connection to, is not part of our character naturally. That is the point of the Good Samaritan: to extend the connection.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I have to ask, Martin60, are you capable of expressing yourself in cogent English?
And Bishops Finger, do you have a point to make, pertinent to the theme of the thread, or is the best you can do, to mock?
Best wishes, 2RM.
I wouldn't dream of it. Oh all right then, the risible but forgivable ineluctable un-self-aware presumptuous sanctimony of your post makes me ultimately puke. Cogent enough?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Yes.
But I have better things to do with my time.
IJ
Fair enough. I can relate to that.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I have to ask, Martin60, are you capable of expressing yourself in cogent English?
...
Best wishes, 2RM.
I wouldn't dream of it. Oh all right then, the risible but forgivable ineluctable un-self-aware presumptuous sanctimony of your post makes me ultimately puke. Cogent enough?
It's a good start. Now try justifying all those adjectives.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You can carry on doing your homework here.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I have to ask, Martin60, are you capable of expressing yourself in cogent English?
...
Best wishes, 2RM.
I wouldn't dream of it. Oh all right then, the risible but forgivable ineluctable un-self-aware presumptuous sanctimony of your post makes me ultimately puke. Cogent enough?
It's a good start. Now try justifying all those adjectives.
Best wishes, 2RM.
I will when you answer my question cogently.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Now we [know] how your priorities are skewed.
That's nice, dear.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Bugger. There's incogency and uncogency.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SecondRateMind
Shipmate
# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind: quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha: Society is compulsory virtue. It cannot exist without it. For all our moral codes, we are good only because we have to be. When societal rules fail, chaos is inevitable.
lilBuddha, I like your posts. Nevertheless, I prefer to think society is more about the prohibition of destructive vice, rather than the enforcement of virtue.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So you are saying that you are cool with compulsory morality, but only to a certain point?
Yup.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
That is only a matter of degree.
Indeed. Though even matters of degree can eventually become matters of principle.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Don’t kill each other and take care of each other are not different things.
Are you sure about that? One is a matter of moral prohibition, the other a matter of moral injunction. They are the difference between the Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) and the Silver Rule (Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you). Seems to me, these positive and negative formulations are significantly different.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
They are what is necessary for a stable society.
I wouldn't disagree.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And most religions, including Christianity, are compulsory morality.
Not my Christianity. Let others speak for themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You are a decent human being*
*Making an assumption here, of course.
Don't assume too much.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2018
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
Are you sure about that? One is a matter of moral prohibition, the other a matter of moral injunction.
Semantics.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SecondRateMind
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# 18898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
Are you sure about that? One is a matter of moral prohibition, the other a matter of moral injunction.
Semantics.
I don't think so.
The other day, I was in my local pub. A group of ladies had inadvertently sat in my usual place, so I took another table. Eventually, however, they left. As I was reclaiming my chair, I noticed that one of them had left her handbag behind.
I had three options:
1) Rifle the handbag for any money and valuables it might contain.
2) Do nothing, on the grounds that I do not own any handbags, and whatever happens to handbags is no concern of mine.
3) Give the handbag up for safe-keeping to a member of staff, so that the lady concerned might be reunited with her property, when she realised she had mislaid it.
The silver rule disposes of option 1)
The golden rule disposes of options 1) and 2), and commends option 3)
I think this is more than just a semantic difference.
Best wishes, 2RM.
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Now we [know] how your priorities are skewed.
That's nice, dear.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Bugger. There's incogency and uncogency.
This one.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
Are you sure about that? One is a matter of moral prohibition, the other a matter of moral injunction.
Semantics.
I don't think so.
The other day, I was in my local pub. A group of ladies had inadvertently sat in my usual place, so I took another table. Eventually, however, they left. As I was reclaiming my chair, I noticed that one of them had left her handbag behind.
I had three options:
1) Rifle the handbag for any money and valuables it might contain.
2) Do nothing, on the grounds that I do not own any handbags, and whatever happens to handbags is no concern of mine.
3) Give the handbag up for safe-keeping to a member of staff, so that the lady concerned might be reunited with her property, when she realised she had mislaid it.
The silver rule disposes of option 1)
The golden rule disposes of options 1) and 2), and commends option 3)
I think this is more than just a semantic difference.
Best wishes, 2RM.
You are confusing legal and moral.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gwai
Host
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SecondRateMind:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I have to ask, Martin60, are you capable of expressing yourself in cogent English?
And Bishops Finger, do you have a point to make, pertinent to the theme of the thread, or is the best you can do, to mock?
Best wishes, 2RM.
SecondRateMind, you were already told once by a host not to make personal attacks. Watch yourself.
And do not ignore the orders of the crew. It is not safe.
Gwai,
Purgatory Host
[ 18. January 2018, 02:21: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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Golden Key
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# 1468
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Posted
que sais-je--
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...while we're waiting for the world to get its act together, we can donate for *free* at click-to-donate sites.
Lend With Care funds loans made by microfinance companies in the developing world. I'm not trying to persuade you to try it (well, a bit) but it's made me think more about motivating giving. There are pictures on the site of people wanting loans, a couple of paragraphs about what they do and why they want the money.
Kiva is similar.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Kiva is similar.
Up to a point. However LWC is trying to be truly peer-to-peer lending (i.e the little picture and story told relates to the actual person you will be financing), in Kiva's case they lend to intermediaries who supply a set of profiles of the sorts of borrowers they have on their books.
(more here https://www.cgdev.org/blog/kiva-not-quite-what-it-seems )
There's still plenty to criticise about the microfinancing model itself - the interest rates are frequently very high and it's based on the dubious premise that poor people can make themselves richer through access to credit (which comports with the just so stories we often tell ourselves in the West about the ability of people to succeed and become entrepreneurs).
The Chang/Bateman paper on microfinancing is available online and explores the issues above (and others) in more depth:
http://wer.worldeconomicsassociation.org/files/WER-Vol1-No1-Article2-Bateman-and-Chang-v2.pdf
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Interesting - I've not come across these microfinancing bodies before.
Earlier upthread, lilBuddha said:
quote:
Caring for people you have no contact with, or connection to, is not part of our character naturally. That is the point of the Good Samaritan: to extend the connection.
ISTM that microfinancing may be one way of extending the connection, but it also be done in churches by having (as many do) 'link missionaries' with whom the congregation is in frequent contact.
These 'link missionaries' may well be involved in specific work e.g. building/running an orphanage or a hospice, and so those who support them will know how their £££ is being spent.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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