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Source: (consider it) Thread: Earning Prayer
Gee D
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On the All Saints prayers thread, Lothlorien said:

quote:
Pete has faithfully prayed for Miss M since her leukaemia and has continued since she went into remission.

I will return his faithfulness with prayers for him

(Her typo corrected)

This seems to me to be bad theology - she will pray for Uncle Pete because he prayed for her grand daughter, that he had thereby earned a right to her prayer for him which she would repay. Surely Uncle Pete has our prayers with him because he's in need, not because of what he's done in the past. If carried through a bit, Pete could lose our prayers because once he swore on a Good Friday, he'd lost any right he may have had to them.

What do you think?

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Martin60
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Why do you ask Gee D?

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rolyn
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Can theology not support mutual prayer like mutual back scratching?
Not that there was any detectable implication that UP wouldn’t have received prayers had he not offered them.

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Gee D
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I read that as the meaning the starting words of the second paragraph.

Mutual prayer is one thing, being prayed for because you've earned it is another and I read this as falling into the second category. And Martin, I've asked it because it seemed to me to be a suitable topic for discussion and so far it's drawn the response which Rolyn has made. I'm looking for more like that, discussing the issue.

[ 09. February 2018, 21:47: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Ohher
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Mutual prayer is one thing, being prayed for because you've earned it is another

Have I missed something? I searched the OP for the word "earned" on Lothlorien's part without success. I'm not telepathic and cannot claim to know anyone's intentions here, but it looks to me as though Uncle Pete prayed for Miss M because he wished to, and Lothlorien prayed for Uncle Pete because she wished to.

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Gwai
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We do not need to analyze why a shipmate thought what she did, particularly since she wasn't posting in Purgatory. That aspect needs to be dropped.
However, the topic of whether prayer can be earned or how just desserts relate to answered prayer is an excellent topic.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

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Martin60
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It's just folk religion mate. Impenetrable irrational ignorance. Some guy was staring in to a room of the poor tonight and wondering why God had a heart for them. At least he was stirring. By my response, which was that there's nothing to worry about, that this life is mere conception, that all will be well, he suddenly realised that I'm 'one of those that says Hell is empty'. In the God Slot everybody was raving over how much God loves us but we HAVE to CHOOSE to love Him back. I said I'm a dangerous radical; it's His job to make us love Him, that I didn't know what choice meant. That's the first time I've been so ... challenging of folk religion for many years. The leader took me to mean predestination. It's head shakingly amusingly hopeless.

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Lothlorien
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You have missed my point entirely, GeeD. if anything, I am showing thanks for Pete’s prayers. Certainly not my intention that anything like what you said would be taken from my post.

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Unum Solum
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I can spend to much time thinking about the ‘Why’, better to just ‘Do’ and leave the rest to God. Hence I try not to 2nd guess others motivation.

I have read many a book on prayer, and while I think most of the authors are sincere I have come to believe it’s all just guesswork with a view to allaying doubts. It’s all just a mystery in the heart of God

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Unum Solum
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's just folk religion mate. Impenetrable irrational ignorance. Some guy was staring in to a room of the poor tonight and wondering why God had a heart for them. At least he was stirring. By my response, which was that there's nothing to worry about, that this life is mere conception, that all will be well, he suddenly realised that I'm 'one of those that says Hell is empty'. In the God Slot everybody was raving over how much God loves us but we HAVE to CHOOSE to love Him back. I said I'm a dangerous radical; it's His job to make us love Him, that I didn't know what choice meant. That's the first time I've been so ... challenging of folk religion for many years. The leader took me to mean predestination. It's head shakingly amusingly hopeless.

I don’t think love is ever a matter of choice. There is no action on Gods part that can generate love (not to be confused with gratitude) on our part towards Him. Love, like God, is ‘other’ and defies definition. We can choose not to act on our love but we cannot wash it off.

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Gee D
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Thank you Gwai, that's the point I was wanting to raise.

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Lothlorien:
You have missed my point entirely, GeeD. if anything, I am showing thanks for Pete’s prayers. Certainly not my intention that anything like what you said would be taken from my post.

Yeah, sounded to me like it was about thanks.

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Schroedinger's cat

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Can you "earn" being prayed for - no. The more you need prayer, the less you have earned it, in truth.

Everyone deserves to be prayed for. Some people have more pray-ers who know what to pray for. Maybe, htose who pray more know more people who will pray for them, maybe not.

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Curiosity killed ...

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That's a challenging question, because it takes us back to Komensky's question on the Power of Prayer? thread. If there is no evidence that prayer for others works, does anyone deserve prayer? If, as the evidence suggests, prayer is effective as a meditative or contemplative discipline for the person praying, those who are more marginalised need us to pray about them because we need to find solutions to help them?

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rolyn
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Living in a purely evidence based society, as many believe they are in today, is not the whole story.

There may indeed be no statistical evidence that being prayed for makes any difference to a person’s predicament. However I occasionally feel and believe there a deep and quiet place within us which is able to contemplate that someone, somewhere might just be praying for us. Whether the result is languishing or a fight back isn’t the point, though therein lies the seed of doubt.

A prayer may be distant, puny, or semi conditional. Provided it contains just one grain of genuine humility it is effective on a non-evidence based level.

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Enoch
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I haven't been following the thread which seems to have inspired this one and don't know the background. But aren't Lothlorien and Golden Key right? isn't the motive for mutual prayer, thanksgiving, gratefulness not deserts? And what's wrong with that?

Besides, even if that were not the case, are we only allowed to pray, does God only listen to us, if our motives for doing so are wholly perfect, the best they could be? I hope not. If so, I might as well stop praying now.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Unum Solum:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's just folk religion mate. Impenetrable irrational ignorance. Some guy was staring in to a room of the poor tonight and wondering why God had a heart for them. At least he was stirring. By my response, which was that there's nothing to worry about, that this life is mere conception, that all will be well, he suddenly realised that I'm 'one of those that says Hell is empty'. In the God Slot everybody was raving over how much God loves us but we HAVE to CHOOSE to love Him back. I said I'm a dangerous radical; it's His job to make us love Him, that I didn't know what choice meant. That's the first time I've been so ... challenging of folk religion for many years. The leader took me to mean predestination. It's head shakingly amusingly hopeless.

I don’t think love is ever a matter of choice. There is no action on Gods part that can generate love (not to be confused with gratitude) on our part towards Him. Love, like God, is ‘other’ and defies definition. We can choose not to act on our love but we cannot wash it off.
As I said, it's God's job, His TOTAL responsibility, to make us ALL love. It can't be done in this life. That's the life of our species. It will be done in the next.

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Love wins

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I haven't been following the thread which seems to have inspired this one and don't know the background. But aren't Lothlorien and Golden Key right? isn't the motive for mutual prayer, thanksgiving, gratefulness not deserts? And what's wrong with that?

Besides, even if that were not the case, are we only allowed to pray, does God only listen to us, if our motives for doing so are wholly perfect, the best they could be? I hope not. If so, I might as well stop praying now.

Thank you all for your comments. I've picked this from Enoch because his summation of gratefulness not deserts would fit with my understanding. But I value them all.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's just folk religion mate.

I would not state it quite as you do. But I do think that prayer as a means of receiving anything is incompatible with a just and loving god.
Earning also strikes me as part of a loop that much Christianity strictly eschews.

[ 12. February 2018, 16:09: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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Rob B
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Is it just me, or is this post simply not nice? If you take issue with what someone says PM them, don't start a whole thread about something they have said. If you wish, start a thread asking the question about earned prayer, you do not need to get personal. - it seems most unchristian.

I have to say as a newbie, I am saddened by the apparently lack of civility that is sometimes apparent on this Christian forum. I was naive to think I had found a pleasant place to discuss things of a Christian/religious/philosophical nature.

Anyhoo, I do hope that Lothlorien is feeling ok. I'm not sure I would be.

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ThunderBunk

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quote:
Originally posted by Rob B:
Is it just me, or is this post simply not nice?

Please put your pearls down and get on with it. In my experience, this community is at least as unrestful as it is Christian.

ITTWACW has struck in record time.

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Rob B
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@ThunderBunk: Again. Not nice. It's not about me or you. Lets think about our fellow member Lothlorien who has been wronged.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob B:
Is it just me,

It is just you. Rather, I think you are interpreting GeeD incorrectly as well as the intention of this site and especially this part of it.
He isn’t attacking her, but using her post as an example to discuss a common enough practice. Indeed, reciprocity is a typical human behaviour. Questioning whether it fits in a Christian theology on a Christian heavy website is not untoward.
And, if you look up at the lintel above the doorway into Purgatory, it does state that you may be challenged.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob B:
@ThunderBunk: Again. Not nice. It's not about me or you. Lets think about our fellow member Lothlorien who has been wronged.

I thought that I made it clear that I was not attacking Lothlorien but rather raising the general point.

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Rob B
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Ok, it's just me then. But I still don't agree with how this was done. I spoken with Lothlorien and I know how she feels about it.
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Rob B
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and, her post was originally for Purgatory, so it did not need to be challenged.
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Rob B
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Anyhoo, I've said my piece. I will bow out now. My best wishes to you all.
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Rob B
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob B:
and, her post was originally for Purgatory, so it did not need to be challenged.

Sorry, I meant 'wasn't'. [Hot and Hormonal] Bye!
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob B:
and, her post was originally for Purgatory, so it did not need to be challenged.

SOF is better than many other places, but it still amazes me how many people obsess over the example in, rather than the point of, an OP.

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SusanDoris

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Rob B

I have not taken part in this topic because I did not have anything to offer, but I have been reading it. I think it would be a great shame to leave this excellent site, especially if it is because you feel it is not sensitive to your particular views. I really recommend staying and firmly putting forward and defending those views.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Golden Key
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Rob--

The Ship has its own culture and ways, just like any other group of humans. It can take a while to settle in, but you might find that it's worth it.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Rob B
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Thank you. Sorry, I didn't mean I was leaving the forum, just this post. I think I've gone into this too fast! I'll slow down.
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Golden Key
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Rob--

Sometimes, it's helpful for newbies to spend some time on the gentler boards: Heaven, All Saints, and The Circus. See what other people are doing there, and read the rules for each board. Post, when you're ready and find a comfortable thread. It's a chance to get your feet wet, before diving into the deep end from a high tower.

[Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Barnabas62
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Gwai's guidelines were perfect.

Please stick to the general topic and avoid personalities.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

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Martin60
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Confucius he say man who comes to arse kicking party needs two legs.

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Love wins

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Confucius he say man who comes to arse kicking party needs two legs.

[Disappointed]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Martin60
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Not my favourite analect, true.

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Love wins

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Galloping Granny
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And Uncle Pete, who figured in the first post, died on Monday, February 12, a week ago. A dear friend and shipmate gone.
Has this been noted in any other place? I don't know if there is a correct board to record this.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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Galloping Granny
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Sorry – I found it.
God rest his dear soul.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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