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Source: (consider it) Thread: Difficult relatives
The Phantom Flan Flinger
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# 8891

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Mum, at numerous points during my childhood – numerous variants on “wait till your father gets home” “I’m telling that to your dad” “We’ll see what your dad says about that” etc.

Mum, years later “I was scared of him”.

I see, so, knowing full well what he was capable of, and knowing what fear that instilled in you, instead of attempting to protect me, you chose to use him as a weapon against me.

“Dad” – a few years back – “A bit of fear of your parents isn’t a bad thing”.
Errr – yes it is you no good, brainless, unfeeling moron. I’m not of the opinion that parents and children should be “bezzie mates” (as I believe the current funicular has it), but the gap between respect and fear is a huge chasming canyon that could not be spanned by all the engineers in the world. It’s a shame that you, not being blessed with the brains that God gave a rabbit, will never be able to realise the damage your attitude did.

Of course, that didn’t apply to my beloved sister did it? Oh no.

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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/

Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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It's worth remembering, though, that the standards of a generation ago were rather different. Now, young people expect their parents to be their best mates. A generation ago, there was still the (Victorian?) attitude of your parents being very forbidding. While I would have liked it to be different, it wasn't - so you have to accept the context of the times. Back then, the attitude of 'What I say goes', corporal punishment, etc. was still normal. Now it would probably be considered abusive. But you can't go back in time, even if many times we might like to.

I wonder what the world will be like (gets into time machine and travels into the future) when all the young people, who used to be best mates with their parents, grow up? Will it create new monsters? New difficult relationships? I'd like to know how much authority it is necessary for parents to wield, without the world being overrun by overgrown spoiled brats who were always used to getting what they wanted as children.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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They will all be pounding cushions in the therapy room, shouting, 'you bastards, you never gave me any structure or discipline, just a load of soft squidgy hippy nonsense. Now I'm having to create my own structures, you bastards. I didn't want a friend, I wanted a parent'.

Just a guess.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

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Hang on - no, what we got wasn't normal for the culture and the time. The dog got treated with more humanity.

One story: middle sister aged about 6, having her hair cut into a pretty hideous pudding bowl by mother, standing on a chair hopping from foot to foot because she was desperate to go to the toilet. She was belted for not staying still and told to bloody well hang on while mother finished cutting her hair. Sister then wet herself. She was belted for that and had her nose rubbed in it. Can't remember if she also had to clean the floor and wash her own knickers. I think she probably did, because I have a vague memory of helping wash the chair and floor, and getting a slap for telling my mother she should have let my sister go to the toilet when she asked.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Also, although parents as mates is a definite trend, there is still a lot of cruelty to kids. Last time I looked, NSPCC stats show 16% of kids receive some kind of abuse or neglect. So in a big school bus, with 70 kids, about 12 are going home to abuse.

It's a staggering epidemic, and I suppose nobody has a clue how to reduce it really, or if they do, the money isn't there.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Actually, their latest stats are even worse - 25% of young adults were 'severely maltreated' during childhood. Mind-boggling.

http://tinyurl.com/opox6p4

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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I don't think young people today do expect their parents to be 'mates' - I think there are a lot of middle-aged people out there desperate to hang onto their yoof who like to think they are their child's 'best friend'.

Having older parents, my children are deeply cynical about this type of parent and have profound sympathy for their friends who have kidults for parents.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I don't think young people today do expect their parents to be 'mates' - I think there are a lot of middle-aged people out there desperate to hang onto their yoof who like to think they are their child's 'best friend'.

Having older parents, my children are deeply cynical about this type of parent and have profound sympathy for their friends who have kidults for parents.

Yes, now you mention it, that does ring more true. Weren't those young in the '70s the ones who seriously believed they'd never grow old?!

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Taliesin
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# 14017

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Yes. (to the child abuse statistics.) I meet a lot of young people. Most are having a fairly 'normal' time, which is to say, culture and 2014 appropriate. Some have had appalling experiences, some are being neglected in over-affluent ways - no boundaries, too much money for no effort, no responsibility.

My own childhood experience was hard because it was out of step with my culture and time; my mother had trained as a nanny-for-the-middle-classes two decades previously, and raised me with them in mind, plus her own impatience, frustration and anger at a life more ordinary was breaking through. It doesn't compare to Curiosity's experience - my mother would have instructed me to use the toilet before the haircut. But it would never have crossed my mind to utter any criticism, no matter what had happened.

When you say belted, CK, do you mean with an actual belt [shudder] ? or hitting with a hand? Smacking was on its way out for my generation, and I was never hit with an implement, though my older siblings were. The biggest walloping of my life was 8 hits to the bottom for continuously playing a bar of music with the wrong rhythm. Clearly, it was infuriating. More often it was a single sudden, no warning slap for, say, wearing trousers when I should have been wearing shorts, not that anyone had told me to. Or asking a question that was inappropriate, like, 'what's that?' and pointing at a dog's erect penis.

But it was a pretty hostile environment. And no one understood, for example, why I had to be home hours before anyone else, or not let friends eat anything in my house unless they were sitting down to a meal they had been invited to, or why I never had any money. Or new clothes, ever, apart from school uniform. well, hardly ever. Occasional random things like a pair of red polyester pedal pushers, remember those? But I didn't have a new pair of jeans no one else had ever worn until after I left home. Endlessly being laughed at because I was a decade out of step with fashion. Being the only girl at school without pierced ears, and later, without a perm. And not really knowing what was wrong.

And the worst bit was not knowing what was ok for my own children. I read endless books and kept trying to learn, but I still struggled to let them spend money, or know how often to buy clothes, and what kind, and how much choice.

When my D2 was going thru a particularly selfish, bitchy phase, I would say to my friend (a survivor of far worse abuse than I) '...we don't know what a normal, healthy teenager looks like. Maybe this is it. Maybe she's going to come out the other side, and be fine.'

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anoesis
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# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
My own childhood experience was hard because it was out of step with my culture and time...

...it was a pretty hostile environment. And no one understood, for example, why I had to be home hours before anyone else, or not let friends eat anything in my house unless they were sitting down to a meal they had been invited to, or why I never had any money. Or new clothes, ever, apart from school uniform. well, hardly ever. Occasional random things like a pair of red polyester pedal pushers, remember those? But I didn't have a new pair of jeans no one else had ever worn until after I left home. Endlessly being laughed at because I was a decade out of step with fashion. Being the only girl at school without pierced ears, and later, without a perm. And not really knowing what was wrong.

And the worst bit was not knowing what was ok for my own children. I read endless books and kept trying to learn, but I still struggled to let them spend money, or know how often to buy clothes, and what kind, and how much choice.

I identify very strongly with this. And I am struggling to know what to do with my own children. I know that I feel we were brought up in an unnecessarily austere way, but I don't know where the middle ground between that, and reacting against that, is. As a result I suspect I overthink stuff a bit too much. My sister spends a lot* of money on buying her kids toys and equipment, and meals at Burger King, etc., and it has become clear to me over the last couple of years that my mother disapproves of this. She demonstrates it by buying my sister's children birthday and Christmas presents that are more in the nature of a gesture than anything else - I suspect on the basis that they have more than they 'need' already. I have also had my sister on the phone saying to me, 'I can't understand why she doesn't buy the kids an icecream or something when she takes them down to the beach - I mean, not every time, but sometimes, surely? Don't grandparents like to treat their grandkids?' And I cringed inwardly and mumbled something incoherent, because she does buy my kids icecreams. I can only assume because they are judged to be not in danger of being 'spoilt'.

I don't spend all my money when I get it because I'm not a risk-taker - I have no taste for living on the edge. But I do. not. understand. austerity for its own sake.

*It occurs to me that I am making a judgement here, almost certainly based on my background conditioning. What I suppose I mean is that she spends a considerably greater proportion of the weekly income on this than I do.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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Taliesin - slapped with hand or a rolled up newspaper by my mother, could have used flip-flops. One of the times she lost her temper with me I was kicked. She was wearing wooden clogs with metal studs around the front. That was brought upon me by my little sister blaming me for something she (little sister) had done.

Weapon of choice for my father was a riding crop (usually known as a whip), but if that wasn't to hand, yes, a belt, or slippers or shoes.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
The Phantom Flan Flinger
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# 8891

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Curiosity - a very un hellish [Votive] That's abuse, whatever the generational or other attitude.

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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/

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Taliesin
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# 14017

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yes. I hope you've found good support and therapy over the years, Curiosity. There are some very good survivors groups out there. And sometimes, it can help so much to have it all acknowledged. That it wasn't normal, not ok, not a reasonable response to you or your behaviour. Not your fault.

I know you probably know, and did all this work years ago. You still deserve to hear it though. [Votive]

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Leaf
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# 14169

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It's worth remembering, though, that the standards of a generation ago were rather different. <blah blah condescending bullshit snipped> While I would have liked it to be different, it wasn't - so you have to accept the context of the times. Back then, the attitude of 'What I say goes', corporal punishment, etc. was still normal. Now it would probably be considered abusive. But you can't go back in time, even if many times we might like to.

There was a time when I would have believed this gently exculpatory pile of manure. Now I don't.

My mother and her siblings were raised in an abusive household, but her own mother was not! My grandmother was raised in a nurturing, happy household, with supportive parents... but unfortunately she married an abusive asshole. My grandmother was not able to provide her children with the emotional security she herself had enjoyed.

So no, the previous generations "weren't always like that" and there is no reason to believe they didn't know better at the time. Sure times were hard for everyone, and pressures about survival were more intense, but even then people knew the difference between good and bad reactions and their consequences.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I don't think young people today do expect their parents to be 'mates' - I think there are a lot of middle-aged people out there desperate to hang onto their yoof who like to think they are their child's 'best friend'.

Having older parents, my children are deeply cynical about this type of parent and have profound sympathy for their friends who have kidults for parents.

Yes, now you mention it, that does ring more true. Weren't those young in the '70s the ones who seriously believed they'd never grow old?!
I was in my teens in the seventies and while the numbers keep rising I only feel different physically, so I'm right in that cohort.

There's a world of difference being your children's best mates and their best friends. "Mates" are peers, who do much as you do while friends can be and often are much older. I hope my children regard me at least as a good and respected friend, as they do of some others of my age.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Yes. People who want a good friendship with their kids remember their kids need to be the adults in the situation.

In fact, I think the "matey" thing is often a precursor to [certain kinds of] abusive behavior-- it's the perpetual children who try to be buddies with their kids who wind up getting in the kind of arguments with them you'd expect to see with siblings.

[ 12. February 2014, 23:08: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
yes. I hope you've found good support and therapy over the years, Curiosity. There are some very good survivors groups out there. And sometimes, it can help so much to have it all acknowledged. That it wasn't normal, not ok, not a reasonable response to you or your behaviour. Not your fault.

I know you probably know, and did all this work years ago. You still deserve to hear it though. [Votive]

This. Well said, Taliesin.

[Votive]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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Of course there is a world of difference between highlighting stricter parenting styles and accepting outright abuse. (Just in case anyone should misunderstand what I said upthread....)

And as for the person who said they never had new clothes, pierced ears or a perm, neither did many people. I was expected to earn my own money to provide for non-essentials (and even quite a few of the essentials, too). But again, wasn't that more normal then? Particularly in more rural areas, where people didn't think it necessary to furnish their offspring with every latest fashion item.

The middle line between 'having a whinge' and 'suffering abuse' might be blurred, but the extremes are pretty obvious.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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But Chorister - much of what was happening to us was just seen as stricter parenting styles. We didn't speak out as children because enough people heard what was happening and didn't speak out for us. And you learn silence. When you say something about home life, innocently, in passing, and see disbelief cross adult faces, you shut up.

And we were also dealing with much of the other stuff too - the home-made clothes, haircuts ...

I have a good spidey sense for abused kids now, because I recognise the signs. And this thread has reminded me that I need to be a bit more proactive for a child I have concerns about.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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OK, so I choose to call my experiences 'stricter parenting styles' and you don't. We all have to come to terms with our past in the way that makes most sense.

I'm trying to get at whether there is a definite dividing line between people who were genuinely abused (within their cultural context) and those who were just being petulant at not having a privileged life at a certain age. And, if so, where that divide lies.

I wonder if the difference is whether or not parents thought they were doing it for the best? Misguided behaviour, but arising out of good intent / ignorance / inadequacy, being much more healthy than that arising out of bad/evil intent.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

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# 11770

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Sorry, I obviously haven't made myself clear.

I would not describe my childhood as stricter parenting. My youngest sister still has the scars of the whippings she took as a child. That's not stricter parenting, that is abuse. Beatings like that happening regularly means you grow up in an atmosphere of fear and reminder that it's always on offer for you.

But you grow up in what is normality to you. And it takes a long time to work out that what is normal to you is not necessarily normal to everyone else.

So someone saying things like
quote:
Of course there is a world of difference between highlighting stricter parenting styles and accepting outright abuse. (Just in case anyone should misunderstand what I said upthread....)

<snip>

The middle line between 'having a whinge' and 'suffering abuse' might be blurred, but the extremes are pretty obvious.

is actually incredible unhelpful, because it brings back all that childhood confusion and doubt and fear. It puts me back wondering what we did to deserve the beatings ...

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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You and your sister were abused, Curiosity, and no child deserves to be beaten so just don't waste any more time wondering about that. My childhood was similar to yours in many ways but it's clear to me that your parents crossed the line.

I understand some of what Chorister is trying to get at though, because for many of us it is a blurry line. My parents were far too critical of us, if you didn't know better you would think they were deliberately trying to destroy our self-esteem, but I'm absolutely sure they thought they were just doing their duty as good parents to point out our many faults. There was no mean intent, they just wanted to be proud of us.

My mother whipped us with tree branches, yard sticks, wooden coat hangers, and shoes, but she would get really furious if we put our hands behind our rears to try to ward off the blows -- because she didn't want to hurt our little hands. She honestly thought it was all part of raising kids, teaching us right from wrong and not to be sassy (the greatest sin of all.) But it really was a common thing with my peer group and it didn't make us think our parents didn't love us.

I think it probably veers into abuse when the child thinks the punishment is coming from a place of hatred or, at least, anger and an intention to hurt rather than teach.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Things have changed. Those of born in the middle of the 20th century, say those over 50, the experience of parenting was rather different, at least in my Canadian experience.

Spanked, usually by father with a belt once or twice a week. Strapped on the hands at school for minor infraction, using a leather strap about 18" long. For major infractions, a wooden board on the buttocks while holding your knees. We used to count the number of strokes. I was usually on the low end with about 110 per year.

If you got it at school most of us got it again at home.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Taliesin
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# 14017

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I feel really, really angry about your post, chorister.

It feels like you are taking Francophile's old position, of feeling qualified to make judgements about 'how real is your pain'

I've no idea what stake you have in being able to say, this person was abused, that person was neglected (which is actually abuse) that person's self esteem was damaged, (also abuse) this person is whingeing.

I suspect you have a younger sister who had an easier life than you, yet still moaned.

But those of us with damage react very badly to having our hard won reality questioned.

I don't consider myself to have been abused, really. But bad things went on, and my older sister genuinely thought mum had a right to lock her out the house all night in February. Is that really ok?

[ 14. February 2014, 06:56: Message edited by: Taliesin ]

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anoesis
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# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
OK, so I choose to call my experiences 'stricter parenting styles' and you don't. We all have to come to terms with our past in the way that makes most sense.

I'm assuming there's an inferred 'for each of us' at the end of your sentence above, in which case it makes a lot of sense. But it also means that the below about petulance at not having been provided with a privileged lifestyle is not a judgement you can make for anyone else.

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I'm trying to get at whether there is a definite dividing line between people who were genuinely abused (within their cultural context) and those who were just being petulant at not having a privileged life at a certain age. And, if so, where that divide lies.

Well, I agree that cultural context has a lot to do with it. For instance, I have chosen not to use corporal punishment, at all, with my children. This is not specifically because I think it is always and necessarily wrong, however, so much as to do with the fact that it is kind of getting to be a thing of the past - and, oh look! - the apocalypse has not happened in response. I was subjected to corporal punishment as a child, but I don't have a great deal of angst about it, largely because as far as I can tell, what I got was pretty much in proportion to what others my age were getting at the time. Which certainly did NOT involve riding crops or belts or large pieces of wood.

As far as petulance at not having a sufficiently privileged life at a certain age goes, I identified strongly with Taliesin's post about the things she missed out on, which made her stand out as an object of derision and mockery amongst her peers, because I had this experience too, and it is this which I am hung up about, rather than being hit with a wooden spoon, because it is this which hurt me. I think I would have a lot more understanding of the austerity of my childhood if my parents had been genuinely poor, and unable to provide above the basic necessities - then we would have been all in it together against the world. But my parents were not actually poor - they were not wealthy either, but they lived in an austere way by choice, and it was a choice that owed a lot to an austere variant of the Christian religion. I was prevented from wearing jeans or sneakers, or ornamenting myself, dressed like a grandma in mostly secondhand clothes (often cut down from my Mum's clothes), and of course this made me an object of derision. I did once or twice try to talk to my mother about it, but I suspect the experience was meant to be character building, and anyway, there was a principle at stake: we may be in the world, but we are not of the world. This sort of thing has nothing to do with privilege - the experience of being a social outcast for much of my childhood and adolescence continues to colour my life to this day. I submit that for me to be resentful about this is not petulance.

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I wonder if the difference is whether or not parents thought they were doing it for the best? Misguided behaviour, but arising out of good intent / ignorance / inadequacy, being much more healthy than that arising out of bad/evil intent.

I have no doubt at all that my parents were doing what they thought was best - largely blindly, as all parents do. I do find it a bit hard to understand how they could have placed ideological concerns on such a high pedestal that it allowed them to overlook or write off evident unhappiness in their children as 'bad attitude' or 'worldliness'. But maybe that's a personality thing. My approach to life isn't 'What's the answer to life, the universe, and everything?', so much as 'What is going to work, in this situation?' Which, so far, involves two different approaches for my two different children.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I was prevented from wearing jeans or sneakers, or ornamenting myself, dressed like a grandma in mostly secondhand clothes (often cut down from my Mum's clothes), and of course this made me an object of derision. I did once or twice try to talk to my mother about it, but I suspect the experience was meant to be character building, and anyway, there was a principle at stake: we may be in the world, but we are not of the world. This sort of thing has nothing to do with privilege - the experience of being a social outcast for much of my childhood and adolescence continues to colour my life to this day. I submit that for me to be resentful about this is not petulance.


anoesis - I agree - this is not petulance, in fact I would argue that it is a different form of abuse. To be made a social outcast is one of the worst things that can happen
during adolescence, and of parents to actively contribute to this is at best misguided.

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Chorister

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And I understand why you feel angry, Taliesin. I chose to put myself in the firing line by pointing out that some people have suffered real, genuine, horrifying abuse, while others have suffered from thoughtless, neglectful parenting, perhaps not to such a great degree.

But I have been very careful not to assign any of the above posts into a particular category. Just thought it was worth raising the point that there is a difference, that's all. And trying to place my own experiences on the scale at the same time, which is the whole point of raising them, I guess. It's actually quite hard to do without somehow 'stepping outside' and looking objectively.

Anyway, I've said my piece and will stop now, if it's causing obvious distress. Pax.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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I think the problem is by lumping in the horrific stories with the general whining, maybe the tome is being communicated as evenly agonized.Or something. Maybe we need to codify our entries.

So for instance, my whinge about my mom never letting anyone get a word it is exactly that-- a whinge. I reserve my right to call the annoying annoying, but I recognize that isn't abuse.

On the other hand, the story about family car trips is not whining-- Dad's method of keeping us quiet in the car was to reach back and smack whoever was closest when he heard a noise.

It genuinely angers me when my mom sighs, "why do you never tell stories about the fun times?" because it is basically bullshit- family outings were a nightmare of random shamings and bullying,and living through that is bad enough without someone hanging over you and demanding you craft some alternate history to soothe them.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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Kelly - maybe your Mum wishes there were more fun times to recall, and that's her way of expressing it? Doesn't excuse her, but still.....

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Things have changed. Those of born in the middle of the 20th century, say those over 50, the experience of parenting was rather different, at least in my Canadian experience.

Spanked, usually by father with a belt once or twice a week. Strapped on the hands at school for minor infraction, using a leather strap about 18" long. For major infractions, a wooden board on the buttocks while holding your knees. We used to count the number of strokes. I was usually on the low end with about 110 per year.

If you got it at school most of us got it again at home.

Not only did all that happen, but many of us tend to start chuckling and want to share stories the same way my, "We survived Catholic school," friends, do.

I'm just glad to hear you say, "Once or twice a week," because it was that frequency factor that separated me from my brothers and friends who only "got it," a few times a year. I don't get it No Prophet, and you and me so non-annoying?

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Kelly - maybe your Mum wishes there were more fun times to recall, and that's her way of expressing it? Doesn't excuse her, but still.....

Maybe, somewhere in there. But the way she phrases it, it comes out angry and punitive (this is the basis of most problems I have with her-- if she just expressed what she had to say without this veneer of disgust, I could cope a lot better. She uses this tone when I ask her what time it is for God's sake.) So that's what specifically pisses me off, is that instead of being happy I got some kind of childhood in there, she instantly defers to "What about me?"

And that's another thing-- the sense I get from the various comments she's made is that she is less concerned about what might have been and more concerned about her PR. So if regret is what she is trying to communicate, it isn't coming across. All I am getting is resentment.

I need to add, though, I don't go sailing into these rants about abuse in front of her. The comments about "Why can't you talk about the fun times?" come up when I am talking about fun times I had with other relatives. What ever her issues are, I'm just done with feeling guilty about appreciating those who were kind to me because I am afraid it will slight her somehow.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Taliesin
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Yes, there are levels of conversation, casual comments, reminders sparked by others, long held stories, and, disclosure.

I'm not sure about ship rules and hell, but generally, I'd say don't stop contributing, chorister, if you are still interested, the the role you are playing can be a valuable one. It's not objective, though.

I am finding it interesting how family dramas can be played out on the ship, because we push each other's buttons on an unconscious level.

You and I had a moment where I reacted like a younger sister, because I was hearing you say, a) don't imagine that you are one of us, for your life is much easier and you have no idea. b) go home and take whatever they dish out because you have no choice and c) it must be right on some level, because I am too tired to fight anymore.

I know you didn't actually say that, stay with me here.

On the 12 years a slave thread, Kelly strongly disagreed with me, but more importantly said my priorities were wrong. I could hear a powerful female making a definitive judgement about me, and my actual physical reaction was fear. In response I can a) leave the ship. b) become an outcast on the ship c) find a way of convincing her I have really, genuinely, properly changed my faulty attitude. But it won't work, because it's too late, not good enough and I have irrevocably failed in some way.

Now, Kelly's not a bit like my mother! Has never reminded me of her before or since. It's nothing to do with Kelly, but the unconscious buttons we all have, and play out all the time in work and home and social life.

Thankfully, Kelly didn't ignore me and explained that this is, in fact,a discussion board.

Which I know, really, but on this thread, in particular, it feels important to look at the parallels. Do you have a younger sibling,chorister?

Have a rant. I can take it, and it might help.

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:

On the 12 years a slave thread, Kelly strongly disagreed with me, but more importantly said my priorities were wrong. I could hear a powerful female making a definitive judgement about me, and my actual physical reaction was fear. In response I can a) leave the ship. b) become an outcast on the ship c) find a way of convincing her I have really, genuinely, properly changed my faulty attitude. But it won't work, because it's too late, not good enough and I have irrevocably failed in some way.

Now, Kelly's not a bit like my mother! Has never reminded me of her before or since. It's nothing to do with Kelly, but the unconscious buttons we all have, and play out all the time in work and home and social life.

Thankfully, Kelly didn't ignore me and explained that this is, in fact,a discussion board.

[Hot and Hormonal] [Big Grin]

Can I say that I have been on the other end of that particular reaction enough to recognize what was going on? My reaction was, "Why the hell does she give a shit about my self-important pseudo- cineaste opinio- oh."

Since I am the youngest in my family, I am used to people not giving a hot damn about my opinion, or dismissing it automatically. Therefore I have grown really bold in expressing it, because I figure people will just talk around me anyway. The situation with you taught me a lesson-- I have a responsibility for my words, and my decision to believe "nobody listens to me anyway" can be self-indulgent and self-serving. And I can hurt people that way.I appreciated the "schooling."

[ 15. February 2014, 06:51: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Taliesin
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Yes! I recognise that. And my 'I am very angry' post to chorister is grounded in my learning to state my case or feelings firmly, and not wobble if people say, so fucking what?

I used to try to hint and suggest and vaguely imply, and wonder why I was never heard.

As an adult,I mean. My mother says 'you're very loud, since you became a teacher.' And, 'where has my sweet, quiet baby gone'

Cute vomit smilie. She also says, 'oh, I suppose I've hurt your feelings now, "oh, oh oh, you hurt my feelings, you don't listen to me!" ' in reference to one occasion, nearly 10 years ago, when I tried to explain the impact she had.

And the last time she said that was after she'd stayed for two weeks, being looked after. it obviously comes from a place of vulnerability.

She thinks I have all the power now, and will hurt her very badly, given the chance. I wouldn't though.

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Taliesin
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# 14017

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Cue! Cue vomit smilie. I can't actually use it, but it would have been appropriate.
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North East Quine

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# 13049

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Something which has kept coming back to me since my last post happened when I was 16ish. I was a questioning 16 year old, and my Girl Guide Commonwealth badge had sparked an interest in other religions - a purely academic interest, but I was reading whatever I could find.

Out of the blue, Mum told me that she'd spoken to our church elder, and had agreed a date on which I was to join the church. In the Church of Scotland, that involved standing up and making a profession of faith in front of the whole congregation.

I was aghast, as I felt nowhere near ready to make what was, for me, a hugely significant step. So I said no, I wouldn't. Dad backed me up and said Mum should have spoken to me before arranging it with our elder. Mum wasn't happy, as she said it would be embarrassing for her to go back to the minister and say I'd refused. And she said I was being ridiculous, because, she said "No-one asked me if I believed before I made my profession of faith!"

I think that was true - no-one was interested in her views on the matter when she joined the church. She was expected to, and she did. With the result that it didn't occur to her that I might have an opinion.

I wonder how many opinions and views of her own Mum was allowed when she was growing up? I wonder how baffling and alienating it is for her that she has an opinionated daughter?

[ 15. February 2014, 09:58: Message edited by: North East Quine ]

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quetzalcoatl
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Brilliant example, NEQ. It reminds me of my mother, who used to try to prove logically that there were certain foods that you couldn't dislike. She did it with me, and with my son also. She also used to lie about what we were being served with.

I know it's trivial compared with a profession of faith, but it's always stuck in my mind as an example of over-weening authority - you don't actually dislike this, because I have decreed it!

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Chorister

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# 473

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Taleisin: now that is real. Genuine. Now I do believe this thread is working.

In answer to your question, I had two younger siblings. One died.

I don't really feel the need to say any more at the moment. But will bear your offer in mind should the thread lead towards a more relevant contribution I could make.

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Taliesin
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Ok chorister, thanks.
Sorry to hear about your sibling.

I do sort of feel that everything I've said so far is real, and genuine, but I guess you might mean it resonates for you now.

I'm glad.

[Big Grin]

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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I guess I mean the thread makes sense to me now.
It feels good to resort to fisticuffs to clear the air on occasion. Pow, pow.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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We were all scared. [Biased]
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Chorister

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# 473

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Grrrrr.....

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Nicolemr
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I had a dream about my mother last night. Not a good dream. I guess I still have unresolved issues. [Frown]

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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[Big Grin] I think this thread is working on us. I had a dream a couple nights ago that Mom was being such a bitch that my long dead drunken abusive father showed up and offered to help me escape.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Nicolemr
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It could be... [Ultra confused]

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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deano
princess
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I wonder how many opinions and views of her own Mum was allowed when she was growing up? I wonder how baffling and alienating it is for her that she has an opinionated daughter?

My son (11) is an acolyte at our Eucharist. It takes up 1 hours of his precious time every few weeks. How much moaning can one small boy do?

He tells me “I don’t believe in God, your are forcing me to do something I don’t believe in. It’s unfair”. But he isn’t going to use the time reading, or doing homework or tidying his room… oh no, he’s going to play Minecraft with his mates!

So I’m sorry son, but you will be an acolyte whether you believe in God or not. Because I expect it of him as part of his “chores” around the house. I accept that it isn’t the same as a profession of faith, but sometimes kids do need to be made to do some things otherwise they will think all things they don’t like can be ignored.

I accept that he may not believe in God. He’s 11 and probably has very little conception or understanding of God, and peer pressure is always there of course, but if he choses to leave his faith behind when he’s an adult then fair enough, but I hope that by then he will have been going enough to have a good understanding of what he is laying down. He may choose then to pick it back up later in his life.

We do have a Sunday School but inevitably this is more a form of crèche facility for children to young for the main service. No education or information for the older children/teenagers is available. I think we’ve a few threads about that. I don’t know, perhaps I ought to step up, but I don’t even know if my own theology is sound. Mind you as a universalist AffCaff in the CofE, I would guess that pretty much anything short of actual virgin sacrifice would fit.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
He tells me “I don’t believe in God, your are forcing me to do something I don’t believe in. It’s unfair”. But he isn’t going to use the time reading, or doing homework or tidying his room… oh no, he’s going to play Minecraft with his mates!

Oh My God! Shock! Horror! He's only 11 and already he's showing a different set of priorities to your own!

I bet he's decided he likes different music as well. [Paranoid]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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jacobsen

seeker
# 14998

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I had Roman Catholicism rammed down my throat as a child. It didn't do a thing for my view of the Church. (Neither have a few other things, but that's another story.) Enforced religion really doesn't work imo. But you and your child are certainly reading from the same hymn sheet in regarding the acolyte activities as a chore. It's nice to see parents and children in agreement over something. [Big Grin]

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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.

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Palimpsest
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Nothing new here. As Socrates said
quote:

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.


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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Nothing new here. As Socrates said
quote:

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.


They CROSS THEIR LEGS? Oh the humanity - where will it end? [Devil]

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