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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Difficult relatives
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Why do I still put myself in the position where I can be shat on by my obnoxious siblings? WHY?
Latest thing: older sib with health problems is putting house on the market, moaning about lack of money to carry out necessary work to house, needs to maximise what they get for it, etc, etc, etc.
So I, in fit of guilt and generosity (I thought) or lunacy /masochism (sons thought) persuaded (OK, bribed) sons to go to spend time, do the stuff, etc.
They arrived home after 4 days of very long days having achieved 80% of a list of jobs that would have taken a team of 2 tradesmen a week and my sibling, who they didn't expect to pay them, gave them £120 each. Now I've just had a call to say they didn't complete the list of tasks, took time out to watch TV, hadn't done jobs as the sibling would have, etc, etc, etc.
I'm gibbering: my sons have given one of the most selfish creatures on the planet a total of 80+ hours of hard work between them for a cost of £240. They've rubbed down paintwork, made good plaster, re-glazed 2 windows, changed light fittings, painted 2 rooms, cleaned gutters, taken up a carpet and disposed of it, chopped up a 60 foot tree into manageable logs AND MY DEAR SIBLING FEELS HARD DONE BY.
The local tradespeople would have charged at least £1,000, even if they could be persuaded to do the work.
I've told the children not to worry, I won't ask them to help again. Meanwhile, why don't I learn? When will I learn that the reason this person no longer has a partner and is without friends is because they drive away everyone with their selfishness, nitpicking and ingratitude.
[ 24. August 2015, 13:25: Message edited by: L'organist ]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Meanwhile, why don't I learn?
Because you're a nice person who would be grateful and a smart person who would realize how lucky you were to get such good cheap labor -- so it's nearly impossible for you to imagine that any normal person could be such an idiotic ingrate.
Twilight -- sitting here with walls that need painting and cracks that need grouting and no one willing to do it for any amount of money.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Also sitting here with loads of jobs to be done and no one to do them. Would you sons like a visit to Canada?
Seriously though, your brother is like most and totally caught up in his own troubles. Hopefully, at some level, he knows it was a gift to have them do the work even if he did pay them something for it.
Dust yourself off and forget about it - well, don't totally forget about it - you may need ammunition in the years to come. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
You need to do more than tell your sons you won't ask them to that again. You need to listen the next time they tell you one of your ideas on offering to help a relative is a bad idea. It seems like they're clear on the concept even if you're apt to get caught.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
You're right Palimpset: trouble is I know they've few friends because they're so joy-sapping, but I suppose I feel guilty because I don't love them more (maybe at all, wait, better not go there)?
I just worry that if I don't take the time and effort no one else will.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Probably not, but if you do take the time and effort after repeated abuse, you're teaching them that there are people they can abuse and not suffer consequences.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Why do I still put myself in the position where I can be shat on by my obnoxious siblings? WHY?
Latest thing: older sib with health problems is putting house on the market, moaning about lack of money to carry out necessary work to house, needs to maximise what they get for it, etc, etc, etc.
So I, in fit of guilt and generosity (I thought) or lunacy /masochism (sons thought) persuaded (OK, bribed) sons to go to spend time, do the stuff, etc.
They arrived home after 4 days of very long days having achieved 80% of a list of jobs that would have taken a team of 2 tradesmen a week and my sibling, who they didn't expect to pay them, gave them £120 each. Now I've just had a call to say they didn't complete the list of tasks, took time out to watch TV, hadn't done jobs as the sibling would have, etc, etc, etc.
I'm gibbering: my sons have given one of the most selfish creatures on the planet a total of 80+ hours of hard work between them for a cost of £240. They've rubbed down paintwork, made good plaster, re-glazed 2 windows, changed light fittings, painted 2 rooms, cleaned gutters, taken up a carpet and disposed of it, chopped up a 60 foot tree into manageable logs AND MY DEAR SIBLING FEELS HARD DONE BY.
The local tradespeople would have charged at least £1,000, even if they could be persuaded to do the work.
I've told the children not to worry, I won't ask them to help again. Meanwhile, why don't I learn? When will I learn that the reason this person no longer has a partner and is without friends is because they drive away everyone with their selfishness, nitpicking and ingratitude.
Maybe just change your expectations?! Given what you've posted about this person, would you have expected anything other than complete ingraditude? Change seems unlikely at this point.
Sometimes you just do the right thing because you know it's the right thing. And if the other person can't see that, then screw them.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Sometimes you just do the right thing because you know it's the right thing. And if the other person can't see that, then screw them.
Tubbs
And the fact that l'organist has taught that to her sons is a powerful thing. You've given them a gift.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
I was going to have WORDS. I was. Firm ones. But I've wussed out, and now I'm cross with myself.
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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luvanddaisies
the'fun'in'fundie'™
# 5761
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Sometimes you just do the right thing because you know it's the right thing. And if the other person can't see that, then screw them.
Tubbs
And the fact that l'organist has taught that to her sons is a powerful thing. You've given them a gift.
I was thinking that - on the flipside of the "difficult rellies", it sounds like you've got sons you can be proper proud of, including them being willing to go and do all that stuff for someone that presumably they know as well as you do wouldn't appreciate it. You must be very chuffed with them, which maybe goes some way towards slightly balancing how unchuffed you must be with the ungrateful and unreasonable relative.
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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)
Posts: 3711 | From: all at sea. | Registered: Apr 2004
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Sometimes you just do the right thing because you know it's the right thing. And if the other person can't see that, then screw them.
Tubbs
And the fact that l'organist has taught that to her sons is a powerful thing. You've given them a gift.
Yes, that's what I tell myself too. This "gift" is making me a better person. Or setting me up for an appearence on Crimewatch. I'm still undecided! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Love that, Tubbs.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
What the hell, it's been a while.
Today I came home from work after working one hour, with a ghastly stomach flu. Imagine the worst, then double it.
Last time I was this violently ill, my mom ordered a big old pizza. Actually I take that back-- she asked me to order it, then sighed, " oh never mind, you can't have any. i guess I will do it myself."
I was wondering what she'd to today-- she has always hated when I get sick, I am just not supposed to draw any attention from her-- and sure enough, when I came downstairs there was a three layer Boston Cream Pie on the counter. When I mentioned the cake I couldn't eat, and said it reminded me of the pizza incident, she just smirked like it was the cutest thing she had ever done.
Same look she gets when she brags about eating m&ms in front of my sister while she was doing an 18hour fast in preparation of delivery.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
What happens if you ask her something direct like, "why are you being cruel ?"
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{{{{{Kelly}}}}}
If your mom ever diets, you and your sister should eat goodies in front of her.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
What happens if you ask her something direct like, "why are you being cruel ?"
That"s pretty much what I did say. And I say it every time she tells that damn M&M story.( although, come to think of it, she's stopped telling it.) Her response: " why should I deprive myself just because she can't eat?"
"You couldn't have stepped in the hall?"
( shrug, smirk)
"See, i can't believe you think that's funny. It's pretty mean."
(Giggle.)
Words cannot express the lack of fucks she gives about the opinions of her daughters.
I am sure if you were there you would have come up with the perfect thing to say, though. Even if you were sporting a 102 temp and puking up everything you ate, the perfect comeback would arise to your lips like mist to the top of a lake.
And GK, she is type 2 diabetic. Last time she came home with a Boston Cream Pie was the day after she saw her doctor and reported to me the diet he prescribed for her. I reminded her of the doctor's lecture. (Smirk.)
[ 19. September 2015, 14:08: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
What is she so furious about? Anger is the only force I have ever known drive people to be so destructive of themselves and those around them.
<returning the thread to its customary hell-ish tone>
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
She seems perpetually angry, and acts like she believes this is a position of power.
I have a guess about her family dynamic that might explain this, but it's just a guess, and she won't get near talking about it.
I have vague memories of her being more laid back when I was little, but when she got remarried, my dad just did this big restructure of family life where adults did whatever they wanted, focused their attention and affection on each other, and kids did what they were told and quietly endured whatever the adults dished out. So- mom no longer came up to kiss us goodnight, it was the kids job to parade into the frontroom and deposit a very formal kiss on the cheek of a parent who very often would not respond in any way ( in my dad's case). No more Mom taking care of us when we were sick, now we had to stagger down to the kitchen and make our own chicken soup, and eat it sitting upright at the kitchen table.
I remember her protesting the first couple years, but at some point she began to conflate treatment of us as inferiors with the pedestal he put her on, and not only did she defend his tactics, she began to participate in them. So, my (very one sided) interpretation of things is that in order to maintain this perception of herself as the Queen of my father's life ( as she puts it) she has to mentally keep us in that place of being intrinsically inferior.
[ 19. September 2015, 14:59: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
(((Kelly))) Not for the first time, I think I would be happy to contribute to a fund for you to join a witness protection program...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Promise her that she'll end up at the most hilarious old folks home ever, and get absolutely hysterical hospice care when the time comes.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
She actually quotes that old jibe about " being nice to your kids, because they pick your old folk's home" without seeming to realize she is giving me ideas.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
Promise her that she'll end up at the most hilarious old folks home ever, and get absolutely hysterical hospice care when the time comes.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I am sure if you were there you would have come up with the perfect thing to say, though. Even if you were sporting a 102 temp and puking up everything you ate, the perfect comeback would arise to your lips like mist to the top of a lake.
I doubt it.
I just wondered if had you asked her something like that at some point during one of the myriad occassions she was being a bitch and, if so, what she'd said.
Apparently you had.
It would appear she doesn't see your anger as real - she thinks she's teasing and that you are either oversensitive or engaging in the verbal equivalent of an eyeroll but get it really. (Hence quoting the old folks home thing too.)
[ 19. September 2015, 16:48: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Words cannot express the lack of fucks she gives about the opinions of her daughters.
You basically give the impression that she thinks life is a competition. With her own family. Instead of trying to support you, she's trying to win one over you.
Clearly something in her background has fucked up her thinking in this way. I doubt you can fix it. Most likely the best you can do is work out how to minimise the extent to which you are caught up.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Yeah that's how it feels- like the competition is much more important than the relationship. And I think I have gotten to the point where I realize the only solution is the San Francisco tradition of " picking your own family." I am starting to do that, but in the meantime, it's lonely to have the people who feel like family so far away, and to have my closest opportunity for human interaction be someone who is only in it for the competition.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Indeed. Seems the type to believe that winning is everything, but who was never taught that there's a certain dignity in how you play the game.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It would appear she doesn't see your anger as real - she thinks she's teasing and that you are either oversensitive or engaging in the verbal equivalent of an eyeroll but get it really. (Hence quoting the old folks home thing too.)
I would have to go through decades of examples to provide back up for what I am about to say, but after that long dealing with it, my belief is that she actually does see the anger, and that on some level she thinks provoking it makes her the champion. If I show anger, hurt, annoyance, etc-- she's won. Every time she told that delivery story in front of my sister, she would speak up about how much it hurt her, and she would just laugh. I think my defense of her-- and the fact that none if the other listeners was laughing- finally made her stop trotting it out in public.
( and she has eldercare insurance, so all joking aside, I think she is planning to pick her own home.)
And like orfeo says, maybe I have a blind spot based on how fucked up and alien that feels to me. Who in their right mind would sacrifice rapport, comfort, affection, etc, for some freaking top dog gambit? Therefore, if I just keep trying to model friendliness and generosity- nope. Doesn't work.
[ 19. September 2015, 18:23: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I have a close family member who's rather similar. In their case, I'm pretty sure the 'winning' thing is driven by an inner sense of utter worthlessness, and that they believe esteem is a zero sum game. This guess doesn't help me forgive them as often as it should; perhaps it helps a little.
What do we do - pour esteem down their gaping maw and reward their broken behaviour, or withdraw it and drive their craving even harder? Such people are so hard to reach. Lord have mercy.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I agree that it is very unlikely indeed that the old dog can be taught a new trick at this stage of the game.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I would have to go through decades of examples to provide back up for what I am about to say, but after that long dealing with it, my belief is that she actually does see the anger, and that on some level she thinks provoking it makes her the champion. If I show anger, hurt, annoyance, etc-- she's won.
(((Kelly)))
My father and stepmother are like this.
I tried, for a long time, to give them the benefit of the doubt. I (and most of my friends) sometimes have dark senses of humor that arise out of empathy (sometimes when life gives you a choice between laughing and crying, you have to choose laughter).
And yet - in much the same way as most parents can hear the difference between their child crying because someone told them they couldn't have candy and their child crying because they're in physical pain - there's something completely off about their laughter. They seem to be laughing at the fact that they got any kind of pained reaction from me.
I don't get it. I have no idea what makes people like that. But the only solution I've come up with is to minimize contact.
And yet for some reason they still seem to think that I want contact with them (because who doesn't like to spend time with people they know are likely to deliberately hurt them?)
There are times when I think they act that way at home because their work lives aren't particularly competitive and they'd be better people if they channeled their competitive instinct into business or sports or consensual competitive games or something. But of course they're deeply spiritual people who deny they have any competitive instincts.
So who knows.
Mean people suck. Fuck 'em.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
SO true. Lot more fun speculating about the sex bot business in Purg
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
Perhaps you could reply to the obvious disconnect with, "watch it, Mum, your dementia's showing"...
Seriously, I wish there was actually some way to help you. It would be horribly wearing to live with.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And like orfeo says, maybe I have a blind spot based on how fucked up and alien that feels to me. Who in their right mind would sacrifice rapport, comfort, affection, etc, for some freaking top dog gambit? Therefore, if I just keep trying to model friendliness and generosity- nope. Doesn't work. [/QB]
Kelly, she isn't in her right mind, and (bar a miracle) never will be. She probably doesn't HAVE a right mind. Like my other grandparents, whom I used to write letters to as a child in a desperate attempt to forge some kind of connection. On a rare occasion where I saw them face to face I asked, "Did you get the letters?" "Yep." "Why don't you ever write me back?" "Oh no, we wouldn't ever do THAT," sweetly, and the other chimes in, "but do keep them coming."
Of course I said "Fuck that" (internally) and quit.
Some people seem to have had part of their humanity amputated. It's just not there.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I think that Kelly got all the decent-humanity genes in her family.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
There is that. And it is grace, isn't it, that sometimes the apple really does fall quite far from the tree.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
they believe esteem is a zero sum game.
Bingo.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I have a close family member who's rather similar. In their case, I'm pretty sure the 'winning' thing is driven by an inner sense of utter worthlessness, and that they believe esteem is a zero sum game. This guess doesn't help me forgive them as often as it should; perhaps it helps a little.
What do we do - pour esteem down their gaping maw and reward their broken behaviour, or withdraw it and drive their craving even harder? Such people are so hard to reach. Lord have mercy.
My mother's death smartened my father up - a bit. It's his failing health that has forced him to behave nicer or we don't go and pick him for Sunday supper. It is better that than feeling I want to yell. (I have no idea her dying smartened my mother up; I preferred ny inlaws.)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What the hell, it's been a while.
Today I came home from work after working one hour, with a ghastly stomach flu. Imagine the worst, then double it.
Last time I was this violently ill, my mom ordered a big old pizza. Actually I take that back-- she asked me to order it, then sighed, " oh never mind, you can't have any. i guess I will do it myself."
I was wondering what she'd to today-- she has always hated when I get sick, I am just not supposed to draw any attention from her-- and sure enough, when I came downstairs there was a three layer Boston Cream Pie on the counter. When I mentioned the cake I couldn't eat, and said it reminded me of the pizza incident, she just smirked like it was the cutest thing she had ever done.
Same look she gets when she brags about eating m&ms in front of my sister while she was doing an 18hour fast in preparation of delivery.
Kelly Didn't you have an irrisistible need to vomit just where the cake was?
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
YES.
But as Lyda said, I am decent person.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
YES.
But as Lyda said, I am decent person.
But you are ill, you can't help it, particuallry when faced with food.
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
You could practice some sayings for the next time.
"Oh thanks, that's so sweet of you to get that for me even though we know you can't have any because of your diabetes. As much as I'd like some I'm going to not eat any to support you."
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
You could practice some sayings for the next time.
"Oh thanks, that's so sweet of you to get that for me even though we know you can't have any because of your diabetes. As much as I'd like some I'm going to not eat any to support you."
gilding the lily:
"Oh thanks, that's so sweet of you to get that for me even though we know you can't have any because of your diabetes. As much as I'd like some I'm going to not eat any to support you. But I know they'd love a good dessert over at the homeless shelter/ next door neighbor's/ youth group..." (*whisking the yummy delight out the door before a word can be said*)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
my belief is that she actually does see the anger, and that on some level she thinks provoking it makes her the champion.
I am not a shrink.
I had a "friend" - the thing about smiling when succeeding in upsetting someone (or at the memory of upsetting someone) clicked my memory.
I hired a psychologist to help me understand what's going on and how to deal with it. (One session.) He said he hates labels but if I want one it's "paranoid." I said "that's thinking everyone is against you, this is the opposite, driving everyone away."
He said paranoid is believing everyone is against you, that's your world view. When someone shows friendship, they are violating that world view, threatening the reliability of the paranoid person's reality. The paranoid person defends their world view by engaging in behavior that causes the would-be friend to dislike them, that dislike proves the world view correct.
The psychologist said any time you do or say something nice for a paranoid person, that triggers a driving need prove you actually dislike them. The smile at your negative reaction to what they did is said is because they have proved they were right - you dislike them.
The psychologist said the solution is to express no interest in the paranoid person. He emphasized "no emotion." They crave the emotion. Emotionally disengage, give little or no information, if they call for you don't hear, offer no help, show no concern for their wellbeing, don't give any approval or appreciation for something they do or don't do, no social politeness, minimal possible response to anything they do or say, or to their presence or absence.
Any hint of emotion, if negative proves them right (and they like feeling proved right so they come back for more), if positive triggers the need to goad you into anger and prove you detest them.
They crave the angry response; if they consistently don't get it, they'll stop trying (or take their game elsewhere).
I was dealing with a "friend"; as predicted, when I stopped having any expression in my voice or expressing any interest in anything s/he did or didn't do or say, s/he quickly disappeared from my life.
Dealing with a family member, there's a longer habit of irritating you to satisfy the emotional need, might take some time of non-reacting for the goading to stop because it has become pointless.
I would get anything particularly valued out of there - into a box at a friend's house for a year so if you come home to find your possessions used to wrap garbage or torn for use as rags, you can shrug instead of scream - it's the scream she wants, craves, needs.
If at all possible (it costs money) I would talk to a shrink for guidance. I don't know if a long term relationship can turn violent if the goading stops causing the desired screams.
I am not a shrink. I may be entirely off base in thinking I see any parallel between Kelly's situation and mine.
[ 21. September 2015, 00:05: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Bearing in mind you are not a shrink, Belle what you say makes a lot of sense-- and indeed, usually I respond to her provokations as if I were an airline attendant- neutral to soothing calm. Being sick just deprived me of the energy to muster the act.
That, and bear in mind I spend my days helping kids recover from their own emotional explosions, and remaining neutral n the face of sometimes quite aggressive provocation. Sometmes I just get fucking sick of always being the one who has to adjust around people's random emotional surges. And unloading on me when I show the slightest evdence of humanity myself.
I need a Menschbot.
[ 21. September 2015, 06:37: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I need a Menschbot.
Or at least a mensch.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
The psychologist said the solution is to express no interest in the paranoid person. He emphasized "no emotion." They crave the emotion. Emotionally disengage, give little or no information, if they call for you don't hear, offer no help, show no concern for their wellbeing, don't give any approval or appreciation for something they do or don't do, no social politeness, minimal possible response to anything they do or say, or to their presence or absence.
What complicates this tactic is that Mom is in her seventies, and not in the best of help-- so while I can do the neutral, fake stewardess routine in general, I can't in good conscience do the "Don't offer help" and "Don't answer when they call" thing.
The rest of what you said is scarily spot on-though-- especially the part about recrafting events to support a belief of low self worth. I have had that suspicion before--as in, "Gee the more I help, the more things she finds to decide I not helping. It's almost like she really prefers to see herself as someone nobody will help."
Nothing can be further from the truth, BTW--she has friends, family, and neighbors who shower her with attention. It just never enough. And of zero value when it comes from me and sis. Unless she is using one of our attentions to flog the other.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Mom is in her seventies, and not in the best of help-- ... I can't in good conscience do the "Don't offer help" and "Don't answer when they call" thing.
...shower her with attention. It just never enough.
It's never enough because the need is a bottomless hole. The reason it's a bottomless hole is because the need expressed is not the real need. I have a friend who is a multimillionaire but feels she is in danger of poverty. She is in poverty, it's not financial but something else, so giving her a billion dollars won't help her feel less poor. Your Mom's need is bottomless because the expressed need is not the real need. You cannot resolve anything by striving to meet the expressed need.
You are in a FAR more difficult situation than I was, because it's your own family member and because you live with her daily! Professional guidance could be lifechanging if there's any way to get one appointment with a good insightful psychologist. (But I admit lots of shrinks aren't insightful).
As to 70s and not best health, don't over stress this. Caring for herself is her job, finding ways to do that is her job, whether structuring the furniture arrangement for safety or wearing a call button or moving into assisted living.
This sounds like a brutal (unloving, anti-Christian) statement; it's a place I had to come to in self defense because my Mother's demands would destroy me. She wanted me to quit my job and be her full time companion - at my own expense. At her death I would have no job, no savings, no home, no pension. I would starve to death in my old age if I did what she demanded of me for her old age.
She found doctors, she found rides to doctors, she learned to take her medication, she learned easier cooking, she made new connections, she moved to a retirement community -- she grew as a person (reluctantly, as is common for most of us) because I did not caretake her.
Very different situation from yours.
I'm just pointing out that people in their 70s in not the best health are surprisingly capable, tough, and adaptable. They often need a lot less help than they ask for or than you think they need.
But of course you are there, I'm not.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
My experience is different. When people are in their seventies, they can find it tough to change.
The conclusion I reached is to spend a lot of energy in trying to make them change, but figure out ways to change yourself to make it less hard to deal with her.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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