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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The biggest frustration about guns in the US seems to be that there isn't a culture that follows every incident with an inquiry that seeks to learn from the incident to reduce the chances of it, or something similar, happening again. To err is human. To willfully refuse to learn from our mistakes is idiocy, and when those lessons could help save others verging on evil.

Ah, but they already know the answer, Alan. Keep the guns away from the bad and crazy people, and keep them in the hands of the good people!

See? No inquiry needed!

Now, if we can just stop the baddies from removing their black hats all the time and blending in with the crowd...

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...

We had bounties on various animals until the 1960s for gophers and 70s for coyotes. We learned some things about ecology, natural cycles and continue to learn from the original peoples. The natural world is something we are part of not something we exterminate.

Canada has coyote bounties as well as coyote killing contests.

Seems like extermination to me, but I'm sure it's all about ecology, natural cycles, and learning from original peoples. [Roll Eyes]

There's often aberrations like you post about in NS and AB in a large country like Canada, particularly with 10 provinces and 3 territories which regulate resources themselves constitutionally. There's a controversy about BC wanting to kill bears from helicopters too, which is more recent than your links.

The point is that the culture does not sway in that direction, even with the aberrations.

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ah. So kids have to learn about guns because even if they don't have one, other people will have one?

WTF? Scouts CAN choose to learn about guns, but no one is required to. Most choose not to. Is this so hard to understand?

[ 09. October 2015, 03:14: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Yes, Scouts can shoot safely single-shot 22s. So can anyone. Which has nothing whatsoever to do with wandering around a town or school with a semi-auto and a pistol.

Not the reason it was brought up. It was brought up to counter the "OH MY GOD YOU MEAN YOU LET CHILDREN FIRE GUNS HOW COULD YOU BE SUCH AN IDIOT YOU MORON BEAST ANTISOCIAL IDIOT?!!?!?!" phenomenon that infested this thread on the previous page.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
My Scout troop was 100% safe from guns. By not having any.

I'm also 100% safe from being injured by being chased by bulls in Pamplona. So far I have a 100% success rate of not getting a woman pregnant and I'm fairly confident of maintaining that record. My record is also remarkably good at not getting hurt or killed from jumping off clifftops, sticking knives in toasters, and tossing hairdryers in baths.

You are the poster boy for irrelevant.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
My record is also remarkably good at not getting hurt or killed from jumping off clifftops, sticking knives in toasters, and tossing hairdryers in baths.

Which, now that you mention it, all seem like behaviors that should be strictly regulated by government. Along with riding in/driving automobiles and swimming in water more than three inches deep.

Deadly business those cars and swimming pools...

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
My record is also remarkably good at not getting hurt or killed from jumping off clifftops, sticking knives in toasters, and tossing hairdryers in baths.

Which, now that you mention it, all seem like behaviors that should be strictly regulated by government. Along with riding in/driving automobiles and swimming in water more than three inches deep.

Deadly business those cars and swimming pools...

Ahahaha.

I do so love when people start trying to tell me things like this about the proper scope of laws. Seeing as how I work with laws every day.

I continue to be amazed and amused at how people keep trying to compare guns with other devices that don't actually have the explicit purpose of causing harm, as if there's an equivalence.

There really isn't. Although cars and swimming pools ARE regulated, so there's that hole in whatever argument you think you're trying to make.

If you want to discuss whether your posting on the internet ought to be more regulated in an attempt to save you from doing profound self-harm to your reputation, I'm all ears.

[ 09. October 2015, 04:17: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Deadly business those cars and swimming pools...

You say that like cars and swimming pools aren't already massively better-regulated than devices specifically designed to kill humans. I applaud your idea to introduce training-linked licenses and strict enforcement of operation, along with insurance and continuous safety improvements. Or even you're idea to have lifeguards on duty at all times seems better than what we have now. Good on you, and your progressive brainstorming.

Idiot.

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
My record is also remarkably good at not getting hurt or killed from jumping off clifftops, sticking knives in toasters, and tossing hairdryers in baths.

Which, now that you mention it, all seem like behaviors that should be strictly regulated by government. Along with riding in/driving automobiles and swimming in water more than three inches deep.

Deadly business those cars and swimming pools...

Beds too. Tens of thousands die in them every day I'll bet.

Does your ignorance and glibness really know no bounds? I'd put a safety catch on your keyboard for now as it's making you look an ass.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Paul.
Shipmate
# 37

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Comparing guns to cars
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ah. So kids have to learn about guns because even if they don't have one, other people will have one?

Well, yes. Unless, of course, we're talking confiscation here, as I stipulated above. The number of firearms owned by individuals in the US means the chances are pretty darned good that little Joey has at least one friend whose parents have one.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I don't think you realise this just illustrates a nutty culture rather than nutty individuals, which is what a couple of us have been saying.

This from a man from the land of Dame Edna, the Wiggles, and Foster's "lager". [Razz] (I'll grant you Dame Edna is fairly benign, but the other two are deadly menaces.)

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The very fact that guns are normalized is why these issues even arise.

You do realize you could substitute virtually any controversial thing (or group of persons) into that sentence, and the argument would hold just about as much water, no?

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You're rather reminding me of a friend who wanted a four-wheel-drive, because being higher up and in a sturdier car made her feel safer on the road with all the 4WDs. So you end up with more and more people in the city driving 4WDs for no reason other than a bunch of people in the city initially bought 4WDs.

Which is a silly reason, I suppose. I drive mine because winters here suck, and the snow can get deep. (And the road plowing leaves quite a bit to be desired, when it gets done.)

To some degree, I see her point, though - if you are driving on a street full of large vehicles, and are concerned you might end up in a collision with one of them, suddenly a Smart Car doesn't seem so, um, smart.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Twilight's observation still stands: the safest way to handle a gun is not have one. The safest way for a society to deal with guns is not have many of them around. The best way to deal with the effects of pollution is not to pollute in the first place.

And the bestest way to ensure everyone has tea and cakes is to give them some at teatime. I admire your idealism, Orfeo, I do. The reality is that this ship has *long* sailed off into the sunset. What we need now are concrete, practical ways forward, not pie-in-the-sky ideals of how the world ought to be.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You can argue for all the effective band-aids you like, but they're all fundamentally going to be based on the premise that cutting yourself is a desirable first step.

Analogy fail.

You may see civilian ownership of firearms as "cutting yourself". Everyone's entitled to an opinion. I may disagree.

Responsible firearm ownership is possible. I've owned a few. No one's been injured by them. My friends and relatives have owned a crap-ton. No one injured there either.[1] So it's obviously possible. The question is how to make it more universal - maybe that's laws on storage, maybe it's mandatory safety classes and background checks, maybe it's something else we haven't though of yet. I'm all ears. But simply repeating "guns bad" ad nauseam isn't a solution. It isn't even useful. It just lowers the signal-to-noise ratio for those trying to find real solutions.

I've got no solutions, either - don't take this as me preaching at anyone. I'm not. I'm just looking for an answer like the rest of us.


[1] Obviously, anecdata. But it makes the point that one can indeed own firearms without them killing anyone.

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Yes, Scouts can shoot safely single-shot 22s. So can anyone. Which has nothing whatsoever to do with wandering around a town or school with a semi-auto and a pistol.

Not the reason it was brought up. It was brought up to counter the "OH MY GOD YOU MEAN YOU LET CHILDREN FIRE GUNS HOW COULD YOU BE SUCH AN IDIOT YOU MORON BEAST ANTISOCIAL IDIOT?!!?!?!" phenomenon that infested this thread on the previous page.[qb]
So you make the point. People who do let or teach children to fire guns, drive cars, do mixed martial arts cage fighting, mix drinks, view porn, etc., are introducing children to things with pitfalls and potential dangers. It is certainly possible for children to learn to mix drinks and not drink themselves. It's not about being a moron or antisocial, it's about the consequences and contingencies of certain behaviour and learning. But because the culture is so gun and of violence perhaps it is best to have children know how to shoot. I believe the gun lobby NRA suggested that children should carry guns to school which they thought would prevent things like the Sandy Hook massacre. Bullet proof clothing might also be a good idea at schools. We've understood some American teachers keep peace in the classroom with guns.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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Here in gun happy Arizona, there's been another campus shooting.
[Votive]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Bullet proof clothing might also be a good idea at schools. We've understood some American teachers keep peace in the classroom with guns.

Then those teachers should be sacked. If you can't control a classroom except by the threat of extreme - deadly - violence then you have no business being in charge of one.

Every teacher and every parent ought to know that if you make a threat (or specify a consequence) then you have to be prepared to go through with it, or it soon becomes hollow and worthless. So do these teachers blow away little Lisa for not stopping chatting to her friends, or double tap little Jimmy for chewing gum?

--------------------
Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave

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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Bullet proof clothing might also be a good idea at schools. We've understood some American teachers keep peace in the classroom with guns.

Citation, please? This sounds like someone's scare-mongering, or a headline from the Onion (satirical newspaper).

--------------------
We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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I know some NRA tool suggested high school teachers should be permitted to have a firearm in class, and I know the Onion savaged this idea by declaring that the NRA suggested teachers should spend the entire day pointing a gun at the class. I want to say, who would be crazy enough to follow the NRA suggestions, but the phrase " Texas open carry activsts" springs to mind.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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An especially blatant and delicious hypocrisy is the NRA's annual convention, which this year is to be held in Nashville TN -- a notably gun-friendly state. They have announced that no one is allowed to carry guns into the convention. "Safety considerations"!

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Heh. I bet the venue managers said," We'll be watching you assholes..."

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ah, but they already know the answer, Alan. Keep the guns away from the bad and crazy people, and keep them in the hands of the good people!

See? No inquiry needed!

Now, if we can just stop the baddies from removing their black hats all the time and blending in with the crowd...

Oh, but they don't need hats to tell the good guys from the bad guys, they've already figured it out! The bad guys are the mentally ill!

Now all they need is all the hospitals and doctors to violate patient client privilege and report your medical history to your gossipy neighbor who sells guns at the flea market, then they won't sell guns to people with mental illness and there won't be anymore gun violence! Easy!

Never mind that taking away the right to privacy regarding your own medical issues is a far bigger loss than the right to bear arms.

Never mind that most people who kill with guns are not mentally ill at all.

Never mind that a large portion of people who are involuntarily committed to mental hospitals are anorexic girls too weak to pick up an automatic weapon.

Never mind that many of those who do have serious mental illnesses that might result in impaired thinking haven't been diagnosed so wouldn't be in the data base, while those who are seeing a doctor are probably taking medications that actually make them less likely to be violent than the non-mentally ill.

Never mind that one of the biggest problems with getting help for people with schizophrenia is that they fear, by going to the hospital, they will somehow come under the control of the government. These "gun control," laws would make that previously paranoid fear -- true.

These laws would actually result in fewer ill people seeking treatment and possibly more shootings by mentally ill people.

The political right and the NRA loves to deflect attention from their great big problem by suggesting this bad guy database as a solution.

The left jumps on this idea as a starting point to gun control. It's not gun control at all it's people control. It's a way to further marginalize and stigmatize the mentally ill while doing nothing about the real problem.

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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Here is a map showing open carry by each state as of August 2014. All states now have concealed carry, it appears.

Our secretary just recently obtained her concealed carry permit. Her certificate states

"In delivering this course, I attest that I have complied with the requirements of 12 NCAC 09F .0105 for Concealed Carry Handgun Training and that the student named above has received at least eight hours of classroom instruction, with at least two hours on North Carolina law on concealed handguns, handgun safety and use of deadly force, and that the student has passed a written examination. I also attest that the student named has taken a proficiency examination in which the student has fired at least 30 rounds of ammunition at a target with at least 10 rounds fired from the 3 yard line, 10 rounds from the 5 yard line, and 10 rounds from the 7 yard line, and at least 21 of the 30 rounds fired hit the target. I further attest that the student named is competent with a handgun and knowledgeable in the laws governing the carrying of a concealed handgun and use of deadly force."

As I understand it, if you are going to carry in this state it has to be out in the open unless you have a permit to conceal it.

I doubt I will ever decide to spend 8 hours in a classroom and jump through assorted other hoops just to be able to lug around a concealed pistol. I'll probably just stick to a bullpup shotgun for home and for going up to the family mountain.

[ 09. October 2015, 13:53: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Bullet proof clothing might also be a good idea at schools. We've understood some American teachers keep peace in the classroom with guns.

Rhetoric like this is why those of us who acknowledge there's a problem and are trying to do something about it have so much trouble getting shit done.

Yes, we need to take steps to change gun culture in the US.

We also need to completely reverse certain educational trends, as gun culture is only one part of our increasingly toxic culture. But no one has suggested bullet-proof clothing, and schools are generally gun free zones.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
3 yard line, 5 yard line, 7 yard line

How small is the target? That seems ridiculously close.

Also isn't it rather badly worded, giving the capability for more than 30 shots (which kind of makes sense, practice is good), but then drifting into exactly 30 shots by the pass mark (which again makes sense, else you could keep going till you get the hits, and even with percentages you could get someone borderline over the edge). It needs something to split the two bits up.

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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
originally posted by Mere Nick:
3 yard line, 5 yard line, 7 yard line

How small is the target? That seems ridiculously close.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, it does, on one hand. On the other hand, it might be tough to explain why you just had to shoot someone 20 feet away. 3 yards, though? That's almost close enough to just pistol whip someone. I have no idea about the target size.


quote:
Also isn't it rather badly worded, giving the capability for more than 30 shots (which kind of makes sense, practice is good), but then drifting into exactly 30 shots by the pass mark (which again makes sense, else you could keep going till you get the hits, and even with percentages you could get someone borderline over the edge). It needs something to split the two bits up.
Yes, it seems if it should say you fired ten shots at each of the three test distances and that you hit the target at least seven of those ten shots at each distance.

I get the impression from looking at websites for CCW instruction that class size is only about one to four folks. It would make sense that an instructor would want it limited given what is being taught. Someone couldn't sit in the back and nod off. Maybe it's a rule, I don't know.

[ 09. October 2015, 19:01: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
no one has suggested bullet-proof clothing, and schools are generally gun free zones.

Someone, several someones have suggested. I won't comment about schools being gun free zones.

The Need for Bulletproof vests in Schools

Bullet proof backpacks for kids

Huff Post: With School Shootings Routine, Parents Turn To Bulletproof Backpacks, Child Clothing

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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I stand corrected.

I missed out on that particular flavor of crazy fear-mongering (which, again, makes it more difficult to get anything productive done).

How many shooting on campuses are we up to today?

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Josiah Crawley
Apprentice
# 18481

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Another shooting at a US University [Frown]


ABC reports here

Posts: 17 | From: Hogglestock, England | Registered: Oct 2015  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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Still fewer shootings and killings than there were in Baltimore last weekend.

Sigh.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Our secretary just recently obtained her concealed carry permit. Her certificate states

"In delivering this course, I attest that I have complied with the requirements of 12 NCAC 09F .0105 for Concealed Carry Handgun Training and that the student named above has received at least eight hours of classroom instruction, with at least two hours on North Carolina law on concealed handguns, handgun safety and use of deadly force, and that the student has passed a written examination. I also attest that the student named has taken a proficiency examination in which the student has fired at least 30 rounds of ammunition at a target with at least 10 rounds fired from the 3 yard line, 10 rounds from the 5 yard line, and 10 rounds from the 7 yard line, and at least 21 of the 30 rounds fired hit the target. I further attest that the student named is competent with a handgun and knowledgeable in the laws governing the carrying of a concealed handgun and use of deadly force."

So, according to that "competent with a handgun" is a demonstrated ability, at relatively close range in a controlled situation, to hit an unspecified target 70% of the time. If that target was the size of a dime it would be impressive. If it's the human torso targets you see on all the TV cop shows that doesn't seem all that great.

If the aim of concealed carry is to give you a gun for self-defence, then with the added adrenaline and emotions of being in a situation where drawing a gun may be appropriate reducing that accuracy rate that would mean at least 30% of any bullets you fire (probably a good deal more) would hit something (or someone) other than your assailant. And, that assumes you keep up the training to let off a few rounds at the range regularly so that your accuracy on getting the certificate doesn't fall off.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, according to that "competent with a handgun" is a demonstrated ability, at relatively close range in a controlled situation, to hit an unspecified target 70% of the time. If that target was the size of a dime it would be impressive. If it's the human torso targets you see on all the TV cop shows that doesn't seem all that great.

I don't know what the target was. I suspect it would probably be an outline of a torso and head. I'll ask my secretary. I'd expect she'd have no problem, knowing that her dad taught her when she was young and she and her husband like to go to ranges.

quote:
If the aim of concealed carry is to give you a gun for self-defence
It isn't, as far as I can tell. Keep in mind that this is a concealed weapon permit. You don't need a permit to openly carry. It's a permit to hide a pistol you are carrying.

quote:
then with the added adrenaline and emotions of being in a situation where drawing a gun may be appropriate reducing that accuracy rate that would mean at least 30% of any bullets you fire (probably a good deal more) would hit something (or someone) other than your assailant. And, that assumes you keep up the training to let off a few rounds at the range regularly so that your accuracy on getting the certificate doesn't fall off.
Yeah, pretty much. Keep in mind the short distances you are tested on. I believe you'd have a very hard time justifying shooting someone beyond those distances unless there was additional information available, such as the assailant having a gun or some other reason that you would be at risk of serious harm even at such a distance.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
The reality is that this ship has *long* sailed off into the sunset.

The reality is that other countries and other cultures have shown it is perfectly possible. The reality is that all of the statistics of the USA in regards to gun ownership and gun deaths are off the chart compared to the rest of the "First World".

The reality is that your country is completely fucked up on this particular issue and yet continues to insist, in the American exceptionalist way, that it's in a perfectly normal situation.

Seriously, when I see people confronting Obama with signs about how gun control is wrong and how gun free zones are kill zones, I wonder just how insular these people must be to not be aware that their wonderful arm-bearing society is the most colossally murderous country in the developed world.

Seriously? Gun free zones are kill zones? These people are trying to tell me that because the odds of me ever seeing a gun in this city are miniscule, I walk the streets in fear? Do they believe that Canberra's crime rates are worse than a comparably-sized US city?

In short, are they batshit insane?

If you're telling me that, after a couple of generations of NRA power, the USA is simply incapable of righting the ship and becoming a society that treats guns in a rational manner, then I feel incredibly sorry for you all.

[ 10. October 2015, 04:00: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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By the way, I did a quick bit of googling just to see what data I could find.

St Louis is about the same size as Canberra. Because of the way cities are defined in the US, this is only the city proper and not the metropolitan area.

Homicide rate in St Louis in 2014: 49.93 per 100,000. That appears to equate to just over 150 murders for the year.

I don't have the data for the last couple of years here, but before that our worst ever year was 7.

Yeah, the lack of guns puts me in serous danger. [Roll Eyes]


National figures are 4.7 per 100,000 in the United States in 2012, versus 1.1 per 100,000 in Australia in the same year.

But yeah, there are actually a few more guns in some other bits of Australia. A rational, sane person might notice that this seems to increase the rate a bit, not decrease it.

It seems to me that if you want to find the mentally ill people in America and keep the guns away from them, one need look no further than those gun-owners who believe gun control is bad and makes people less safe.

[ 10. October 2015, 04:14: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
Responsible firearm ownership is possible. I've owned a few. No one's been injured by them. My friends and relatives have owned a crap-ton. No one injured there either.[1]
[1] Obviously, anecdata. But it makes the point that one can indeed own firearms without them killing anyone.

I thought hard about whether to come back to this. But I'm going to.

Your friends and relatives. Well, that's handy, because you can decide who to label as "friends".

How about people you know? How about your community?

How about this community.

Because while it's a bit painful to bring it up, I think it's important to bring it up. A Shipmate got hold of a gun and 4 people ended up dead.

Did anyone think she'd do that? Did everyone come out afterwards and say "well, yeah, she was one of those people we want to keep guns away from"?

I'm not arguing that it's impossible to own a gun without killing anyone. I'm arguing that the proliferation of guns increases the chances of it going wrong. I'm arguing that you completely fucking fail at risk analysis.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Just popping in briefly to say that jlg injured 3 people, but only killed herself.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Huia
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# 3473

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We also had Geneieve (sp) who was shot and killed [Tear]

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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Thanks, Huia. Link to Geneviève's thread here.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Yes, thanks, Huia. I remembered that, but not her name. IIRC, was shot by a mentally-ill homeless person, off meds or something?

[Votive] for everyone, everywhere, on either end of a gun, and their loved ones.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Just popping in briefly to say that jlg injured 3 people, but only killed herself.

Apologies for the mistake.

That thread is apt, in that at the bottom of the page Comet says "WE ARE ALL CAPABLE". And that's pretty much the point I'm making.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:


If you're telling me that, after a couple of generations of NRA power, the USA is simply incapable of righting the ship and becoming a society that treats guns in a rational manner, then I feel incredibly sorry for you all.

Do you mean that?

Because we-- we being the American members of that community you mentioned upthread-- are in pretty deep shit.

Specifically, according to local news there was a big spike in gun sales nationally-- in response to Obama's call for gun control. Repeat: Obama simply mentioned the need for better gun registration laws, and people nationwide retaliated by stocking up.

That is what keeps happening-- that is what to open carry in shopping malls was about. "If you even discuss the matter, we will load up."
Jbohn's self soothing about "nobody he knows" getting hurt is pretty dim and complacent, but it's not like all the gun nuts are gonna find each other to kill off, either. We're all stuck in the middle of it.

It feels like civil war is looming in our backyard. It is frightening.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Specifically, according to local news there was a big spike in gun sales nationally-- in response to Obama's call for gun control. Repeat: Obama simply mentioned the need for better gun registration laws, and people nationwide retaliated by stocking up.

Seriously? I know you know this, but that just doesn't make any sense at all.

Now, I can see how if someone has it in their head that they are capable of using a gun in defence of themselves and others (and, the number of things I've seen American friends posted on FB from professionals - soldiers who have seen action - that demolish that conjecture puts that fallacy in it's place) then there is some logic that more of them would seek the licenses to have a gun with them at all times. Simply in response to the media showing how many guns are flooding the country and the frequency with which they are used heightening the sense of danger. But, that wouldn't need many new guns to be bought I'd have thought - presumably people who think like that already have at least one (in their mind) suitable weapon to carry around with them.

But, to stock up on guns and ammunition because you think they're going to be taken away? Are they planning armed rebellion against their own democratically elected government? Do they think the few hours they manage to put in at the rifle range will give them the skills to take on the Marine Corps? Do they think their neighbours will thank them for turning their suburban neighbourhood into a war zone?

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Allow me a moment of liberal paranoia-- I think They ( whoever the fuck they are) are trying to provoke a situation where the public is threatened to the point that the government HAS to step in, and then They are justified in starting an actual rebellion. A nationwide Waco.

Not exactly the kind of thought that gives you sweet dreams.

[ 10. October 2015, 08:23: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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The NIGGAH'S try to take our guns away!

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Still fewer shootings and killings than there were in Baltimore last weekend.

Sigh.

Are we comparing a few too many with a lot too many?

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Still fewer shootings and killings than there were in Baltimore last weekend.

Sigh.

Are we comparing a few too many with a lot too many?
Yes, it sounds like one tribe suggesting that the next tribe along is lacking fervour because they only sacrificed twenty children to Moloch.

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Forward the New Republic

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
Thanks, Huia. Link to Geneviève's thread here.

I seem to recall that the murderer was a homeless man who camped out in the woods near the church and regularly was given food boxes by the church. How the hell someone could obtain a gun when he had no money for food or lodging is beyond me.


[Votive] Geneviève

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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Ben Carson, a candidate for the 2016 Republican presidential nomination, blamed the Holocaust on Nazi gun control.

[Roll Eyes]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Ben Carson, a candidate for the 2016 Republican presidential nomination, blamed the Holocaust on Nazi gun control.

[Roll Eyes]

Oh well, I suppose we can be grateful he's not denying it.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Still fewer shootings and killings than there were in Baltimore last weekend.

Sigh.

Are we comparing a few too many with a lot too many?
Yes, it sounds like one tribe suggesting that the next tribe along is lacking fervour because they only sacrificed twenty children to Moloch.
Yeah, I have no idea what the point of that comment was. Good analogy.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
The reality is that this ship has *long* sailed off into the sunset.

The reality is that other countries and other cultures have shown it is perfectly possible.
IN THOSE CULTURES. Such studies cannot possibly prove that they can be generalized to the US.

quote:
Yeah, the lack of guns puts me in serous danger. [Roll Eyes]
I believe the argument concerns the relative lack of guns in gun-free-zones in a heavily-armed country. Which the US is, and Australia is not. Your comparison is meaningless.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126

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Is the culture of the US so fundamentally different to the UK or Australia that changing attitudes and legislation around firearms is genuinely unthinkable?

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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Put it this way-- the first step is getting people to see it is not unthinkable.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by JonahMan:
Is the culture of the US so fundamentally different to the UK or Australia that changing attitudes and legislation around firearms is genuinely unthinkable?

It won't be easy. The USA came into being through an armed insurrection which overthrew the then government. Less than a century later it went through a colossal internal war that all-but split the country. A good deal of its territory had to be taken and maintained at gunpoint. It has, for most of its history, been at war.

I think it's fair to say that Americans have a different attitude to firearms than do Australians and the British. Whether that should lead to so many owning firearms of just about every class is another matter.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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