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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fucking Guns
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Still fewer shootings and killings than there were in Baltimore last weekend.
Sigh.
Are we comparing a few too many with a lot too many?
Yes, it sounds like one tribe suggesting that the next tribe along is lacking fervour because they only sacrificed twenty children to Moloch.
No, I'm just tired of the media's "white woman panic" (their tendency to only report on issues and see them as a problem when they start affecting white women).
And the sudden chorus of voices calling for the politicians to "Do something! Do something now!"
IME, most hastily written laws are bad laws with horrendous unintended consequences.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Why was it necessary for you to veil that quite valid point in secrecy?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Oh FFS. Our news (that's the news in the UK) has been, for months, been about black men, shot dead by your mainly white police force.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
It not just that, (ffs). It's that black and Latino people often wind up in the kind of glorified ghettos I have been describing, that they already have "da gunz" as Martin so charmingly put it, but since they are using them on each other, the media somehow neglects to report these in relation to the nation's gun control problem. When my nephew shot himself and his girlfriend, there was a one paragraph report you could only find buried in the appendix material of the local newspaper's online site, and by the time I found it the comments were already swamped with people exhaulting in the news that those " beaner bangers" were killing each other off.
Saysay is right about the disparity, but it doesn't really bolster her case that gun control is a useless venture.
That's another reason shootingtracker is a great idea-- it allows underreported stories to be reported.
[ 10. October 2015, 18:24: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Specifically, according to local news there was a big spike in gun sales nationally-- in response to Obama's call for gun control. Repeat: Obama simply mentioned the need for better gun registration laws, and people nationwide retaliated by stocking up.
That is what keeps happening-- that is what to open carry in shopping malls was about. "If you even discuss the matter, we will load up."
I realize that the Left is not a monolith. But there really are people on the far left who talk about confiscating guns or Australia and how something similar should be possible in the US. And then people in the moderate left insist that no one is talking about confiscating guns, we're just talking about reasonable gun control legislation, registration, etc. in a 'don't believe your lying ears' move. Which makes people nervous.
As I said earlier, the right does with gun control what the left does with abortion: they act like any restriction, no matter how sensible, is a step onto the slippery slope leading to an inevitable ban.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, to stock up on guns and ammunition because you think they're going to be taken away? Are they planning armed rebellion against their own democratically elected government?
Possibly. The president has admitted that he has given a lot of consideration to passing gun control through an executive order rather than through the legislative process. IME the kind of people who do this already feel like they are not represented in the democratic process. As far as I can tell, they want to make it clear that the people will not stand for much more expansion of executive power.
quote:
Do they think the few hours they manage to put in at the rifle range will give them the skills to take on the Marine Corps? Do they think their neighbours will thank them for turning their suburban neighbourhood into a war zone?
Again, IME, most of these people are rural, not suburban. And an awful lot of them are former military themselves, and they believe that many in the military would go AWOL rather than enforce an unlawful order to confiscate guns.
Granted, I also know one former army guy who is stockpiling weapons in preparation for the inevitable zombie apocalypse, which makes me feel real safe...
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Oh FFS. Our news (that's the news in the UK) has been, for months, been about black men, shot dead by your mainly white police force.
Those are two completely different issues. How many shootings not involving middle class white people (particularly women) have made the national or international news?
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Why was it necessary for you to veil that quite valid point in secrecy?
Sorry. Didn't realize I was veiling anything in secrecy.
Intellectually I know that people on the Ship aren't necessarily participating in the same conversations off the ship as I am, but I don't necessarily know which conversations they are participating in. Or what I need to say versus what will get me smacked for being condescending or mansplaining.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Saysay is right about the disparity, but it doesn't really bolster her case that gun control is a useless venture.
I'm fairly certain I haven't said that it's a useless venture. In fact, I'm fairly certain I said that putting certain sensible gun control restrictions in place now might have a positive long term effect but won't necessarily lead to any kind of immediate drop in these kinds of shootings because of the number of guns already on the ground. Which is why changing the culture not just the law is necessary.
Mostly I'm just objecting to people in other countries telling us to just do what they did, as if the US shared their exact same culture.
[ 10. October 2015, 18:41: Message edited by: saysay ]
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oh, I see. You wanted to phrase it in such a way to imply the main problem was "white women", and not "16 year old Chicano boys getting their hands on a firearm."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
.It won't be easy. The USA came into being through an armed insurrection which overthrew the then government. Less than a century later it went through a colossal internal war that all-but split the country. A good deal of its territory had to be taken and maintained at gunpoint. It has, for most of its history, been at war. ...
Don't forget slavery and the genocide of indigenous peoples. Guns made those possible too.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Mostly I'm just objecting to people in other countries telling us to just do what they did, as if the US shared their exact same culture. [/QB]
I don't think any non-US person is saying that the US should do exactly the same thing. But they are pointing out that the process is possible, and that these are some of the ways that worked for us (to a greater or lesser extent of working).
Far be it for me to make a suggestion, but in my view your objections would be better focused on the gun problem rather than how other people, offering constructive thoughts as well as sympathy, phrase things.
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Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave
Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Mostly I'm just objecting to people in other countries telling us to just do what they did, as if the US shared their exact same culture.
Well, pretty certain if my culture contained things like sacrificing children to Moloch, you'd be pointing the finger and telling me to stop sacrificing children to Moloch.
Of course, I might be all "but sacrificing children to Moloch is part of my culture. You don't understand how important passing our first born into the flames is. If we didn't do it, we wouldn't be who we are."
But then I'd still be part of a reprehensible death cult and rightly shunned by anyone with an ounce of moral rectitude.
I don't care if you object to me saying "what the fuck is wrong with you people?" Because your gun culture is stupid and dangerous.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, I see. You wanted to phrase it in such a way to imply the main problem was "white women", and not "16 year old Chicano boys getting their hands on a firearm."
Yes, that's it. Because what I said was:
quote:
Still fewer shootings and killings than there were in Baltimore last weekend.
Sigh.
Which clearly implies that I think the main problem is "white women."
That's obviously more logical than thinking that maybe I said that because on one of the days of one of these campus shootings we had a shooting that involved more people and barely made the local (much less national and international) news and I didn't think to say that because the response of everyone else around me IRL was to throw up their hands and say "again?"
Followed by a sigh of despair.
Every time one of these campus shootings happens, am I the only one who has to listen in disbelief to a bunch of people try to tell me that the problem is misogyny and men's belief that they're entitled to sex and if we addressed that and banned guns (or bullets) the shootings would stop?
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I don't care if you object to me saying "what the fuck is wrong with you people?" Because your gun culture is stupid and dangerous.
And where did I object to your saying that?
It is what it is. Wishing don't change that.
(But good for you for not caring and saying something you think is true even if someone somewhere in the world might object or find it offensive. Someday maybe you'll find something you believe in strongly enough that you're willing to stake something important to you on the belief).
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm not arguing that it's impossible to own a gun without killing anyone. I'm arguing that the proliferation of guns increases the chances of it going wrong.
This is obviously true. Widespread availability of guns means that angry people who just want to lash out and hurt people and don't want to live any more might have (or can get) guns. It means that suicidal people are more likely to commit suicide with a gun, because it's (comparatively) easy and certain) and it means that there are going to be more accidental deaths from stupidity.
All these things have a societal component as well as a gun component (before anyone says Switzerland) but for the same society, more guns must correlate with more deaths.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
In prediction of behavioural risks, there are "static" risks and "dynamic" risk factors. In this case the static or situational risk factors are number of guns and things like how they are stored. Dynamic risk factors are the behaviour of people in situations, like perception of risk, thoughts about motives of others, anger, fear etc.
Both are important. No guns = no risk from guns, whatever the dynamic factors within the individual. Any gun availability probably always increases the risk for gun use. It is just a fact. But the dynamic factors, the motives and character of people, and culture: what are these that make America risky besides the static factor of guns being available? I hear things like excessive individualism, frontier myths, slave owning history, but are any of these actually really involved?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
You mean the stuff this guy was writing about? quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Meanwhile a friend of Bullfrog's (Gwai's guy) wrote
this:
"Much more than gun control, we must shift our culture of violence to a culture of peace. We need models who will lead us to move beyond resentment and towards an ethic of love, a love that embraces even our enemies."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, to stock up on guns and ammunition because you think they're going to be taken away? Are they planning armed rebellion against their own democratically elected government?
Possibly. The president has admitted that he has given a lot of consideration to passing gun control through an executive order rather than through the legislative process. IME the kind of people who do this already feel like they are not represented in the democratic process. As far as I can tell, they want to make it clear that the people will not stand for much more expansion of executive power.
I think the majority of people would consider that the President using executive power to over ride the considerations of Congress, Senate and States would be a less than ideal situation.
But, from what's effectively a straw poll of Americans I know (here, on FB, a few in RL) well over half of them have expressed views strongly in favour of increased gun control legislation. If that's reflected in US society as a whole then the failure of Congress to even discuss the issue means that on this issue over half the nation are excluded from the political process. When Congress fails to act on something that is the expressed interest of over half the US population (assuming my small sample of people is reasonably representative) then the President issuing an executive order to redress that democratic deficit is not, IMO, unreasonable.
I don't know if any of the polling organisations have asked for views on gun control legislation. I've not seen anything reported if they have.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
The president has admitted that he has given a lot of consideration to passing gun control through an executive order rather than through the legislative process. IME the kind of people who do this already feel like they are not represented in the democratic process. As far as I can tell, they want to make it clear that the people will not stand for much more expansion of executive power.
These are the same people who elected a do-nothing Congress. Serves them fucking right. If they want legislation that reflects the will of the people, they should stop voting for people who have said flat-out and have demonstrated by their deeds that they don't give a flying fuck about the will of the people, and if elected will do exactly what their rich taskmasters tell them to do.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
From what I can see reported in the media, there is currently a definite pattern in Congressional discussion )OK, maybe squabbling over who should be Speaker breaks the pattern).
The pattern is "what can we do to kill the most people this week?" Cut funding to support medical provision to the poor, that will kill people. That gets debated. Cut welfare funding, that will kill people. Find a foreign nation they don't like and send in "our boys" to put them right, that will cost a fortune (paid to their chums in the arms industry) and kill lots of people. Gun control will save lots of lives, therefore they don't discuss it.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Sweet God. Alan is right. I think I will go back to bed. Forever.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If that's reflected in US society as a whole then the failure of Congress to even discuss the issue means that on this issue over half the nation are excluded from the political process. When Congress fails to act on something that is the expressed interest of over half the US population (assuming my small sample of people is reasonably representative) then the President issuing an executive order to redress that democratic deficit is not, IMO, unreasonable.
Congress discussed gun control legislation after Sandy Hook. They just didn't pass any. Given that there hasn't been a huge change in congresscritters and few if any have indicated that they would change their vote if bills were brought again, there's little point in bringing them to the table again. The votes just aren't there.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
These are the same people who elected a do-nothing Congress. Serves them fucking right. If they want legislation that reflects the will of the people, they should stop voting for people who have said flat-out and have demonstrated by their deeds that they don't give a flying fuck about the will of the people, and if elected will do exactly what their rich taskmasters tell them to do.
Given the amount of money it currently takes to get elected to Congress, who exactly is running for the office who is not going to do exactly what their rich taskmasters tell them to do?
Furthermore, given that Federal Law has gotten so convoluted that I'm told the average American commits three felonies a day (with disturbing implications for the future of free speech), please make a case for why these gun control measures favored by the American people should be done at a federal level rather than a state level. Because you can't trust the stupid hicks in West Virginia to enact sensible gun control legislation and it's too easy to cross state lines with a gun purchased elsewhere? Or...
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The pattern is "what can we do to kill the most people this week?" Cut funding to support medical provision to the poor, that will kill people. That gets debated. Cut welfare funding, that will kill people. Find a foreign nation they don't like and send in "our boys" to put them right, that will cost a fortune (paid to their chums in the arms industry) and kill lots of people. Gun control will save lots of lives, therefore they don't discuss it.
And yet you wonder why people might be stockpiling weapons for possible use against the government?
The people in Washington are rich. The rich in this country frequently really, really hate the poor. Although it is more often the case that they will do anything to maintain their wealth and power and simply view the rest of us as collateral damage. IME, the more they talk about understanding how "privileged" they are, the more true it is. They know they never would have succeeded if the playing field were level. But they want to keep the stuff they have. And they want their children - who likely also won't succeed on a level playing field - to succeed.
To quote Leonard Cohen:
"everybody knows the dice are loaded
everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
everybody knows the war is over
everybody knows the good guys lost
everybody knows the fight is fixed
the poor stay poor and the rich get rich
that's how it goes
and everybody knows"
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
The people in Washington are rich. The rich in this country frequently really, really hate the poor. Although it is more often the case that they will do anything to maintain their wealth and power and simply view the rest of us as collateral damage.
Just about to post something that I will hope unify most of us in shared disgust.
Ben Carson throws a fast food drudge under the bus.
"Carson said twice this week that the victims in last week’s Oregon community college shooting should have tried to tackle the gunman and would not “just stand there and let him shoot me.”
(snip)
So what happened when Carson allegedly faced just such a threat? He directed the gunman’s attention to an employee of the fast food restaurant.
“I just said, ‘I believe that you want the guy behind the counter,’” Carson said.
The retired brain surgeon did not explain what happened next."
[ 11. October 2015, 00:19: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Guess old Ben hasn't read many details about the school shootings of the past ten to twenty years, I'm starting to think he doesn't get the paper.
Very few people stand there and let the guy shoot them, unless they're one of the first victims who hasn't had time to realize what's happening. They hide behind desks, climb out windows, play dead, hide under dead bodies, pile furniture in front of doors and run and run. Sometimes a very brave person, usually a teacher, will try to tackle the gunman and, in every case I've read about, that poor person dies quickly.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
The reality is that this ship has *long* sailed off into the sunset.
The reality is that other countries and other cultures have shown it is perfectly possible.
IN THOSE CULTURES. Such studies cannot possibly prove that they can be generalized to the US.
Yeah, you're right. Because here, we had what was the largest mass shooting at the time, and the populace generally got behind the Prime Minister and supported the gun laws we've had for the last 20 years. Not everyone, but most people. Both sides of politics in every State and Territory, for one thing, because it required legislation at that level.
We bought the guns back (bought, not confiscated), and got on with lives that were a little less mass-murdery.
Your culture? People start suggesting that everything would've been fine if only so-and-so had been armed. I imagine they look at Port Arthur and ask why the cafe manager wasn't packing heat. There really is no comparison.
[ 11. October 2015, 00:31: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Reading about Port Arthur for the first time in a while...
He killed 12 people in the first 15-30 seconds. Many of them didn't even register what was happening before they died. This stuff about a good guy with a gun being able to stop a massacre is such bullshit.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Very few people stand there and let the guy shoot them, unless they're one of the first victims who hasn't had time to realize what's happening. They hide behind desks, climb out windows, play dead, hide under dead bodies, pile furniture in front of doors and run and run. Sometimes a very brave person, usually a teacher, will try to tackle the gunman and, in every case I've read about, that poor person dies quickly.
Not exactly what a
survivor describes in Oregon. The shooter had time to retrieve an envelope from a pack, and ask individual students about their religion before shooting them.
One young man tried to block the shooter from the class. He was shot multiple times but did survive.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
This stuff about a good guy with a gun being able to stop a massacre is such bullshit.
Tell that to a woman from Oklahoma who still has her
head attached.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
This stuff about a good guy with a gun being able to stop a massacre is such bullshit.
No, it's not bullshit. The problem is that it happens.
If you would like to attempt to persuade me that, statistically speaking, the risks posed by open carry are much greater than the rewards offered, be my guest.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Because you can't trust the stupid hicks in West Virginia to enact sensible gun control legislation and it's too easy to cross state lines with a gun purchased elsewhere? Or...
No "or." It's too easy to cross state lines with a gun purchased elsewhere. That's why all the bullshit about Chicago is bullshit. The Indiana Connection keeps Chicago gangs well supplied with guns despite Chicago's restrictions.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Your culture? People start suggesting that everything would've been fine if only so-and-so had been armed. I imagine they look at Port Arthur and ask why the cafe manager wasn't packing heat. There really is no comparison.
Really? I HAD NO FUCKING IDEA THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPENED. You tool. You fucking tool. You think we don't know this? You think a sizeable chunk of America doesn't know this? You think everybody is like this? Burn yourself out in your orgasm of Anti-American hatred. But maybe you could do it offline? Because we already FUCKING KNOW IT.
Tool.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
No "or." It's too easy to cross state lines with a gun purchased elsewhere. That's why all the bullshit about Chicago is bullshit. The Indiana Connection keeps Chicago gangs well supplied with guns despite Chicago's restrictions.
So why not a federal law saying that if you sell a gun to someone who is not a resident of your state, the gun cannot be given directly to the person but must be shipped to a licensed gun dealer in that person's city/ county and state to be licensed and registered etc. according to the gun laws in that location? Why does the entire damn country need all of the exact same gun laws even though we have a wide variety of gun needs?
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
No "or." It's too easy to cross state lines with a gun purchased elsewhere. That's why all the bullshit about Chicago is bullshit. The Indiana Connection keeps Chicago gangs well supplied with guns despite Chicago's restrictions.
So why not a federal law saying that if you sell a gun to someone who is not a resident of your state, the gun cannot be given directly to the person but must be shipped to a licensed gun dealer in that person's city/ county and state to be licensed and registered etc. according to the gun laws in that location?
Excellent plan! You go ahead and get that passed. Will that keep people from Indiana driving across the state line into Chicago and handing over guns to people there? That would be awesome.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Excellent plan! You go ahead and get that passed. Will that keep people from Indiana driving across the state line into Chicago and handing over guns to people there? That would be awesome.
Well, no. But IME a lot of people in Baltimore don't really know that many people who don't live in Baltimore, so it would probably take a while for that particular illegal industry to pop up.
Much better is your plan to (scrolls back through thread). Oh, I see you don't have a plan, in spite of repeated requests by jbohn and me for specific proposals rather than simplistic bitching.
Tell me, are you in the Timothy the Obscure we'll-confiscate-all-the-guns camp or the Democratic Party's Official Camp (we'll pass a bunch of legislation that will make things a huge pain in the ass for legitimate gun owners but wouldn't have actually stopped any of the people who went on shooting sprees from getting guns)?
But your plan of forging the bipartisan consensus necessary to get this federal gun control you seem to so desperately want for the sake of all the poor peasants who can't be expected to know what's in their best interest by insulting and misrepresenting your ideological opponents is sure to work out great!
Oh! I forgot! We'll just elect Hillary, who has already made it clear she'll ram through a bunch of useless legislation by executive order!
That'll work out great for the country.
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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
You really are a turd, aren't you?
Oh and by the way, you don't pass legislation through executive order. You might want to watch your "SchoolHouse Rock" videos again and learn what the branches of the government are, and what each does.
[ 11. October 2015, 05:18: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
Wow. Just... Do you have any idea what your government has been up to or what, in the case of Hillary, it has promised to do? (if you don't like those sources there are plenty of others that say the same thing - google it).
And would someone please start drawing up the articles of secession? The powers that be have made it clear just how much they hate us, maybe they'll let us go quietly this time.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
If that's reflected in US society as a whole then the failure of Congress to even discuss the issue means that on this issue over half the nation are excluded from the political process. When Congress fails to act on something that is the expressed interest of over half the US population (assuming my small sample of people is reasonably representative) then the President issuing an executive order to redress that democratic deficit is not, IMO, unreasonable.
Congress discussed gun control legislation after Sandy Hook. They just didn't pass any. Given that there hasn't been a huge change in congresscritters and few if any have indicated that they would change their vote if bills were brought again, there's little point in bringing them to the table again.
Sandy Hook was almost three years ago. And, there have been too many mass shootings since then. Surely the people are demanding something be done? It shouldn't matter what the congresscritters think. I thought the aim was government of the people, by the people, for the people. Not, government of a small elite, by a small elite, for the small elite. If the people demand that their representatives get off their backsides and enact meaningful gun control legislation surely the task of Congress is then to determine the details. I understand there's an election coming up, that should make the politicians take notice of what the people who will vote them back in (or not) are saying.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The pattern is "what can we do to kill the most people this week?" Cut funding to support medical provision to the poor, that will kill people. That gets debated. Cut welfare funding, that will kill people. Find a foreign nation they don't like and send in "our boys" to put them right, that will cost a fortune (paid to their chums in the arms industry) and kill lots of people. Gun control will save lots of lives, therefore they don't discuss it.
And yet you wonder why people might be stockpiling weapons for possible use against the government?
To be honest, yes. You live in a democracy. There should be a large range of options to get government to act for the people that don't involve guns. Has democracy failed then? Are you really heading towards a new civil war, with on one side an assortment of dis-organised militia and on the other a load of well trained people who have sworn on oath "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States". Or do you consider that an armed uprising wouldn't be interpreted as domestic enemies of the US Constitution? Although a reasonable President would presumably hesitate against giving orders to send in the army against his or her own citizens.
[ 11. October 2015, 05:53: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Wow. Just... Do you have any idea what your government has been up to
Yes.
quote:
or what, in the case of Hillary, it has promised to do?
Yes.
quote:
And would someone please start drawing up the articles of secession? The powers that be have made it clear just how much they hate us, maybe they'll let us go quietly this time.
How I wish you'd go. Then maybe we could get back a legislature that works, and obviate the executive orders.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Sandy Hook was almost three years ago. And, there have been too many mass shootings since then. Surely the people are demanding something be done? It shouldn't matter what the congresscritters think. I thought the aim was government of the people, by the people, for the people. Not, government of a small elite, by a small elite, for the small elite.
I fear that ship has sailed, at least until the next revolution. The one where blood runs knee-deep in the streets, all the wrong people get killed, and the super-rich escape in their private jets to Bimini. The drooling Fox-news-watching idiots will shoot up the few remaining tenured university professors, who are of course the "elite" oppressing the good, honest, hardworking Christian NASCAR fans. The Mother Jones readers will wring their hands and tell each other, "See, I told you?" as they are gunned down by the NRA-backed, gun-sucking goon squads.
The diseducated masses will then invite the super-rich to come back, tell them all is forgiven, and forbid them to give them health insurance, since that would be socialism. The super-rich will then hire whoever's left out to the highest Chinese bidder, then all go back to Bimini because their drinks are melting.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Knowing how gradual the law changes were in the UK, can't you start with small changes that might have traction? So following this Oregon shooting a requirement that everyone who has a gun has a licence and to get a licence they have to pass a medical check? Federally applied.
Sandy Hook was your opportunity to get automatic and semi-automatic guns out of circulation.
Requirements for safe storage is another change - so guns must be kept in locked gun cabinets separately from ammunition. But that one is going to take some serious changing of minds, possibly backed by publicity about the number of accidental killings of children (I vaguely remember we had a few of those to trigger one or other changes in the law). (Looking at Alan's dates for previous law changes in the UK, I was very young when the law changed to storage in locked cabinets here. I must have had very strong prohibitions put on touching guns to even remember seeing them propped in cloakrooms.)
How about regular reviews on the law on firearms? The UK has had a recent consultation as the nature of firearms continues to change.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I agree with Curiosity. Given the scale of gun ownership in America, presumably one single piece of legislation to e.g.ban automatic weapons would involve a massive amount of effort to enforce. It would at least be a start, and in a couple of years the next piece of legislation could ban semi automatics and so on.
Our next legislation will deal with air guns, since they are now the main cause of death and injury.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
There's a meme going around suggesting that gun owners be required to buy liability insurance, just like car owners. That (or the buyback) would be as good a start as any, in my mind.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
saysay: Wow. Just... Do you have any idea what your government has been up to or what, in the case of Hillary, it has promised to do? (if you don't like those sources there are plenty of others that say the same thing - google it).
And would someone please start drawing up the articles of secession? The powers that be have made it clear just how much they hate us, maybe they'll let us go quietly this time.
I find this fascinating. People really think this way.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Your culture? People start suggesting that everything would've been fine if only so-and-so had been armed. I imagine they look at Port Arthur and ask why the cafe manager wasn't packing heat. There really is no comparison.
Really? I HAD NO FUCKING IDEA THINGS LIKE THIS HAPPENED. You tool. You fucking tool. You think we don't know this? You think a sizeable chunk of America doesn't know this? You think everybody is like this? Burn yourself out in your orgasm of Anti-American hatred. But maybe you could do it offline? Because we already FUCKING KNOW IT.
Tool.
I find it bizarre that you're yelling at me for knowing the same thing that you know. Where the bloody hell did you get the notion that I was attempting to teach you something?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
This stuff about a good guy with a gun being able to stop a massacre is such bullshit.
Tell that to a woman from Oklahoma who still has her
head attached.
1 time in 23. It doesn't get presented as 1 time in 23, it gets presented as 23 times in 23. That's the bullshit part.
[ 11. October 2015, 11:18: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I confess I have my Google News set to catch anything about road rage, home gun incidents and Pit Bulls, just to fuel my issues. Clearly some here use different key words like, "gun saved lives," "home invader thwarted."
Scroll down for video. SNL skit.
[ 11. October 2015, 12:13: Message edited by: Twilight ]
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
1 time in 23. It doesn't get presented as 1 time in 23, it gets presented as 23 times in 23. That's the bullshit part.
Are you sure it isn't this that happens more often?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I think for every "brave citizen armed with a gun who stops potential homicide" story there is at least one (probably significantly more than one) "citizen who doesn't know what they're doing accidentally shoots innocent person" story - either like that one with the victim of the crime hit (and, I've seen several of those stories), or there are several stories of someone thinking someone has broken into their home shooting a spouse or child who got up for the bathroom or someone innocently ringing the door bell, or several other scenarios that are possible either involving bullets not hitting their target (yep, 30% at close range on a target range not hitting the target is good enough for a permit to pack heat) or mistakenly thinking someone innocent is a bad guy.
So, I suppose the question is do the number of lives potentially saved by the very occasional "brave citizen" greater than those lost because someone carrying a gun for self or other protection gets it wrong?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
This stuff about a good guy with a gun being able to stop a massacre is such bullshit.
Tell that to a woman from Oklahoma who still has her
head attached.
1 time in 23. It doesn't get presented as 1 time in 23, it gets presented as 23 times in 23. That's the bullshit part.
Oh, the part that you left completely out of your post? Got it.
And even if you accept the dubious "23" claim, do suppose that matters at all to the woman with a head?
I doubt that it does.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I think for every "brave citizen armed with a gun who stops potential homicide" story there is at least one (probably significantly more than one) "citizen who doesn't know what they're doing accidentally shoots innocent person" story - either like that one with the victim of the crime hit....
The article doesn't make it clear that this is what happened.
More likely I would suggest that the shooter was targeting the carjackers in the first place, thus their hurry to jack a car and get away, and didn't give a shit who he hit.
"Good guys" with guns by definition don't collect their casings and flee the scene.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
So, your conclusion is that this particular story doesn't support the premise that people should be armed to protect themselves and others.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I find it bizarre that you're yelling at me for knowing the same thing that you know. Where the bloody hell did you get the notion that I was attempting to teach you something?
I guess from the fact that you keep saying it over and over, in the most in-your-face and jingoistic way you can, even though nearly every American here keeps agreeing with you.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Agreed. Like I said, if your primary motivator is compassion and solidarity, it's really not coming across. Your disgust with "YOUR nation" is really coming across, and what I guess you are saying is your " agreement" is being delivered with a huge measure of "Can't You People get it to through Your thick skulls?"
Alan, on the other hand ,is saying pretty much exactly the same things you are saying, but when he responds to me it feels like he is responding to " Kelly, who I have known for 13 years" rather than " American Cultural Stand -in #24"
A few days ago I wrote something along the lines of, dude, why don't you donate to the NRA, and help them on their quest to eliminate 10, 000 American Idiots a year? Less stupidity in the world for you to suffer. I deleted it. You know why? I coudn't reconcile the statement I was making with the orfeo I know, of whom I am very fond. I don't think you are returning the favor-- I think you are laying presumed collective cultural traits on people you should know better by now.
There are perhaps 15-20 American shipmates out of the 100 or so Shipmates of other nations that participate on the boards every day, and therefore it would bevery easy for the rest of you to overwhelm us and make us the locus of your cultural frustration.
Well justified cultural frustration, I might add-- what the government, the media, the military, McDonald's, Hollywood, fucking Disney, etc has done to the world disgusts me.
But that's just the point. What does it serve to treat people you know as generic national representatives? And to repeatedly step over the fact that they are AGREEING with you, instead of devoting a sentence or two to acknowledge the agreement exists? It certainly does not facilitate mutual listening.
More than that, though, if there is one thing that has well and truly poisoned America, and can be directly related to just about every moment of cultural shame we bear, it is the historic tendancy to Otherize. Our current war in the Middle East, slavery, the Cold War, internment camps, reservations, you name it-- the very thing that greased the wheels of all of these things was our collective decision that some people were righter, purer, more entitled, more human than others. The whole reason the Black Lists happened in the 50's is that we decided we were so much better than those disgusting Commies that we could jettison the very liberty we preached in favor of punishing the Other.
I don't think Otherization is an American tendancy, though, I think it is a human one. It is the one addiction we can't seem to shake. And it is pure poison. If you (generic you)love your country, if you prize your cultural values, resist the urge to Otherize, because that shit has the historical record of destroying everything good in a people.
[ 11. October 2015, 16:07: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, your conclusion is that this particular story doesn't support the premise that people should be armed to protect themselves and others.
I don't draw any conclusions from the story, and I don't seek to support any premise.
That people should be armed to protect themselves and others is not a premise anyway, it is a point of fact. Just like that many criminals are armed to commit crimes and protect their jurisdictions thereof.
All the licensing requirements, background checks, and insurance mandates will not change this dynamic in the US. Just like all the similar requirements with regard to automobiles don't stop accidents, criminal operation, and mass death and injury.
[ 11. October 2015, 16:01: Message edited by: romanlion ]
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
All the licensing requirements, background checks, and insurance mandates will not change this dynamic in the US. Just like all the similar requirements with regard to automobiles don't stop accidents, criminal operation, and mass death and injury.
Except that it does, so that your analogy works entirely against your point of view.
(Not stop entirely, but massively mitigate. Knock yourself out, google the statistics. They're quite boggling.)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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