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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Do you ever drive a car? Must you always add that people die in car wrecks?

No, primarily because (in this part of the world at least) it's possible to successfully use a car for its stated purpose a remarkable number of times before anything bad happens.

Same with all sorts of things that are part of everyday life, generally work fine, occasionally go badly wrong. Heaters successfully heat homes far more often than they burn them down.

With a gun for protection, you're talking about something that is kept around for an unlikely scenario and, despite your attempt now to suggest that it's actually used when it's displayed but not fired, has been shown to more likely harm the residents of the house than to be used successfully.

(If you want to scare people by brandishing a gun, buy a fucking replica.)

This is all just variation of cost/benefit analysis and risk management. I take on the risk of driving a car because of the huge demonstrable benefits it brings to my daily life. I have no problem with gun ownership when it's for a concrete, practical purpose (as is perfectly possible in rural areas).

What I find bizarre is how successfully the NRA/the gun industry has sold an inchoate notion that people need "protection" for an event that is quite unlikely, and with little guarantee the protection will actually work. Soror Magna has already perfectly encapsulated how delusional this is.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I'd rather have a magazine that is too big than too small if I was defending the family from intruders. The shotgun holds a dozen.

Not in this state it don't. 3 cartridges max.
Really? What state is that? I've done a little digging and can't find anything about it anywhere in the country.
I think what MT is thinking of is Federal law regarding hunting of migratory waterfowl - there is indeed a 3 round capacity limit when hunting ducks, geese, etc.

I'm not aware of any state that prescribes a 3 round magazine limit for general possession or use , however.

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Paul.
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
...
The view of the company was that it was the people who rated themselves highly that were a concern, because as a matter of logic a substantial number of them were overestimating their driving skills.

There's actually been some social science research on this phenomenon, and it's not just the math, it's human nature. People who think they're good at something are often overestimating their abilities; and those who think they aren't very good at something are often underestimating. It's ego vs. reality. "Trust me, I know what I'm doing" usually leads to horrible "accidents".
The Dunning-Kruger Effect
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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:

I'd rather have a magazine that is too big than too small if I was defending the family from intruders. The shotgun holds a dozen.
Shotguns are for hunting here. Waterfowl (ducks, geese) and upland game (grouse, pheasants, partridge). Invariably they are 12 gauge (18.5mm), 26" barrels (66cm) and almost always pump action, which will hold 5 shells, but it is required to have a plug in the magazine to restrict it to 3 shells. Guns with shorter barrels and more shell capacity are restricted.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

If cops can't hit a barn door when the perp isn't even shooting back, the vast majority of civilians are going to be worse than that.

Yes indeed - unless they put in the training and practice. There's nothing innate about cops that makes them skilled shots - you'd expect them to be no better and no worse than a bunch of random civilians who have had the same level of training and practice, and have reasonable physical fitness.

They're just people. More or less anyone who wants to shoot significantly better than the average cop can learn to do so. It's not magic, just training and practice, which costs time and money. Spend a lot more time on training and practice than Officer Friendly, and you shouldn't be surprised when you out-shoot him. It's not something that most people do do, but it's something that they are capable of doing.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

The view of the company was that it was the people who rated themselves highly that were a concern, because as a matter of logic a substantial number of them were overestimating their driving skills.

Sure. Someone who is a poor driver and knows that he is a poor driver will give himself extra space/time, because he knows his limitations. Someone who is bad but thinks he's good will take risks and cause accidents.

(It's easy to score someone's shooting - shoot a target from a standard distance, and add up the points. Driving skill is harder to measure objectively, so probably easier to mis-estimate.)

I do wonder exactly what's going on with this stat, though. I would guess (without much of any data to back it up) that most of what's going on is that people are thinking that the average driver is worse than they really are, because examples of bad driving that you encounter stick in your mind more than examples of good driving. So if you rank drivers on a 0-10 scale, with 5 being average, I'd be expecting a whole load of 5s to be ranking themselves as "above average" because they think that an average driver is about a 3.5.

This error is much less dangerous than having a smaller number of boy racer 2s and 3s who think they're 8s and 9s.

quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
The Dunning-Kruger Effect

Well, according to that study, my guess would be wrong. That study suggests that it's the very bad who are going around thinking that they are average or a bit above, and conversely the very good don't really understand how bad some other people are.

quote:
A follow-up study, reported in the same paper, suggests that grossly incompetent students improved their ability to estimate their rank after minimal tutoring in the skills they had previously lacked, regardless of the negligible improvement gained in skills.
In other words, people who are useless at X tend to have had no exposure to the range of skill at X, and so don't realize how good other people are. Once they see that other people can easily do what they can't, they realize their ineptitude.

One assumes that the able person would also get better at estimating his superiority by spending time observing the crap.

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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:

I'd rather have a magazine that is too big than too small if I was defending the family from intruders. The shotgun holds a dozen.
Shotguns are for hunting here. Waterfowl (ducks, geese) and upland game (grouse, pheasants, partridge). Invariably they are 12 gauge (18.5mm), 26" barrels (66cm) and almost always pump action, which will hold 5 shells, but it is required to have a plug in the magazine to restrict it to 3 shells. Guns with shorter barrels and more shell capacity are restricted.
I believe the length requirements here are 18 inch barrels and 26 inch for the whole gun. I've no interest in hunting so will probably just take it up to the mountain and shoot targets.

I found this and if you scroll down to The "Shotgun Myth" it says the 3 shell limit is for for when you are shooting at migratory birds. Otherwise, there's no limit.

Way back in 1996 we took a couple of private planes through Canada to Alaska. We stopped off in Edmonton and an officer came to the plane and made sure we didn't have any handguns but did have a rifle. It's the only place I've ever been to where folks wanted to make sure we had a gun. I don't recall if there were magazine minumums or maximums for the rifle.

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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[qb] Do you ever drive a car? Must you always add that people die in car wrecks?

No, primarily because (in this part of the world at least) it's possible to successfully use a car for its stated purpose a remarkable number of times before anything bad happens.
Same here, but more people die in car wrecks than gun homicide.

quote:
With a gun for protection, you're talking about something that is kept around for an unlikely scenario and, despite your attempt now to suggest that it's actually used when it's displayed but not fired, has been shown to more likely harm the residents of the house than to be used successfully.
Of course it's unlikely. It is a possibility, though, and so we will have one. While you believe it is just a suggestion that showing one counts as a use, I believe that that the idea that folks have them is an actual use. The secret service at the White House is constantly using them, even though they are rarely fired at anyone.

quote:
This is all just variation of cost/benefit analysis and risk management. I take on the risk of driving a car because of the huge demonstrable benefits it brings to my daily life. I have no problem with gun ownership when it's for a concrete, practical purpose (as is perfectly possible in rural areas).
Exactly. That's why I leave it up to you to decide whether or not you will be armed with a gun.

quote:
What I find bizarre is how successfully the NRA/the gun industry has sold an inchoate notion that people need "protection" for an event that is quite unlikely, and with little guarantee the protection will actually work.
Even Joe Biden recommends a shotgun. I don't see a need for me to own a pistol or rifle. If you want one or either, go for it.

quote:
Soror Magna has already perfectly encapsulated how delusional this is.
I find the idea of someone other than you deciding whether or to have a gun to protect your home delusional and assholish. Especially when the person who proposes to do the deciding is armed or has armed guards.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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lilBuddha
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Originally posted by LC:
quote:
Yes indeed - unless they put in the training and practice
it isn't merely shooting at a target.
Ask anyone who has experienced war. Training helps, but training is much more than target practice. And nothing but being in the situation predicts how well one will react.

Originally posted by MN
quote:
Same here, but more people die in car wrecks than gun homicide.

Please tell me you are really not this stupid? Cars are not guns. Most of the comparisons used are just plain stupid.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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RooK

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A thought experiment.
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Mere Nick
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Originally posted by MN
quote:
Same here, but more people die in car wrecks than gun homicide.

Please tell me you are really not this stupid? Cars are not guns. Most of the comparisons used are just plain stupid. [/QB]
Of course cars are not guns. However, more people are killed in car wrecks then by gun homicide. If you want to read more in to it, that's your problem, not mine.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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Mere Nick
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Here is a summary of stun gun/ taser laws for each state, if anyone is interested. I guess it us up to date.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Originally posted by MN
quote:
Same here, but more people die in car wrecks than gun homicide.

Please tell me you are really not this stupid? Cars are not guns. Most of the comparisons used are just plain stupid.

Of course cars are not guns. However, more people are killed in car wrecks then by gun homicide. If you want to read more in to it, that's your problem, not mine. [/QB]
If you are implying nothing, why bring it into the discussion?

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Hallellou, hallellou

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
[qb] Do you ever drive a car? Must you always add that people die in car wrecks?

No, primarily because (in this part of the world at least) it's possible to successfully use a car for its stated purpose a remarkable number of times before anything bad happens.
Same here, but more people die in car wrecks than gun homicide.
So the fuck what? Seriously, do you understand statistics so badly that you think an absolute number actually means something on its own?

Do you honestly believe that if device A kills it user once every 5 times, and device B kills its user once every 2,000,000 times, and millions of people are using device B daily whereas only one family is continuing to use device A occasionally, that device A would be better because it kills fewer people?

[ 15. October 2015, 22:28: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Alan Cresswell

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According to Wikipedia the number of deaths caused by cars is very similar to the number of gun deaths, around 33,000 per year for both.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
it isn't merely shooting at a target.
Ask anyone who has experienced war. Training helps, but training is much more than target practice. And nothing but being in the situation predicts how well one will react.

...all of which applies to cops as well as to other people.
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lilBuddha
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So, given rate of use, cars are safer than guns to an incredible degree.
Still, not a legitimate comparison. Vehicles are a demonstrable necessity in urban, and many rural, environments.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
it isn't merely shooting at a target.
Ask anyone who has experienced war. Training helps, but training is much more than target practice. And nothing but being in the situation predicts how well one will react.

...all of which applies to cops as well as to other people.
Yes, but likely not in the way you mean.
Granted that American police are generally poorly trained and inconsistent between localities. But, generally speaking, their training deals with conflict and contact that almost none of the general public recieve.

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lilBuddha
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Oh, and even if police are equal to the general public, it would be an argument for their not having weapons either, not you having them as well.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, given rate of use, cars are safer than guns to an incredible degree.
Still, not a legitimate comparison. Vehicles are a demonstrable necessity in urban, and many rural, environments.

Slight nit to pick. Urban environments are where cars are least necessary, if the city has decent public transportation. It's the burbs and rural areas that are impossible without a car.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
more people are killed in car wrecks then by gun homicide.

So fucking what? This is irrelevant. Totally, completely irrelevant.

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romanlion
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, given rate of use, cars are safer than guns to an incredible degree.
Still, not a legitimate comparison. Vehicles are a demonstrable necessity in urban, and many rural, environments.

Slight nit to pick. Urban environments are where cars are least necessary, if the city has decent public transportation. It's the burbs and rural areas that are impossible without a car.
Also, cars are major contributors of CO2, are they not?

So they are actually killing everyone just a little each day, on top of the many people that they completely kill each day.

And they are not a necessity, as evidenced by the fact that for statistically all of human history we have survived without them, in both urban and rural environments.

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Alan Cresswell

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The only relevant thing is that the number of people killed by cars has declined, especially as a proportion of the number of cars on the road/total miles driven. And, that reduction in deaths is a direct consequence of regulations - improvements in car design, requirements for drivers to undertake extensive training and pass a test to demonstrate they can control the car adequately and react sensibly to common situations that may occur while driving, legislation to ban driving while under the influence of drink or drugs and enforcement of those laws, mandatory insurance, etc etc.

If you're going to make the comparison, take it to the logical conclusion. Additional regulation of guns will reduce gun deaths.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Also, cars are major contributors of CO2, are they not?

Which is justification for further motor vehicle regulations, starting with emissions - which ultimately comes down to less car use, and therefore provision of alternative means of getting around eg: by public transport, safe cycle and walking routes, increased car share schemes, etc. But, banning SUVs would be a start.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Granted that American police are generally poorly trained and inconsistent between localities. But, generally speaking, their training deals with conflict and contact that almost none of the general public recieve.

I'm going to quote my previous comment.

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Spend a lot more time on training and practice than Officer Friendly, and you shouldn't be surprised when you out-shoot him. It's not something that most people do do, but it's something that they are capable of doing.

I agree - most random people do not have as much training as a random cop. So what? Anyone who wants to spend the time and money can obtain such training.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Oh, and even if police are equal to the general public, it would be an argument for their not having weapons either, not you having them as well.

Sure. I'm in general pretty uncomfortable with many cops having guns, given the lack of skill they demonstrate. My uncomfortableness is somewhat tempered by the fact that most cops never fire their weapons, so the fact that they wouldn't hit the side of the barn is somewhat moot.

If I ever wanted to own a gun for self-defense, I would want significantly more training and practice than the average cop gets before I felt comfortable with the responsibility.

I'm not at all arguing that Joe Sixpack is going to do better than a random cop - I'm arguing that if he wants, he can develop better skills than the average cop has, and I seem to be faced with a wall of opinion that believes a blue uniform is somehow magic.

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
requirements for drivers to undertake extensive training and pass a test to demonstrate they can control the car adequately and react sensibly to common situations that may occur while driving,

You've never taken a US test, have you? [Devil]
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, given rate of use, cars are safer than guns to an incredible degree.
Still, not a legitimate comparison. Vehicles are a demonstrable necessity in urban, and many rural, environments.

Slight nit to pick. Urban environments are where cars are least necessary, if the city has decent public transportation. It's the burbs and rural areas that are impossible without a car.
Put that nit back!
For I said vehicles. But also, even the cities with the absolute most crowded public transportation, the streets are full of private vehicles.

Originally posted by romanlion:

quote:
And they are not a necessity, as evidenced by the fact that for statistically all of human history we have survived without them, in both urban and rural environments.
Stupid argument. No, really stupid. Unless you are proposing guns to thin the population to the point where antique transportation is sufficient.

--------------------
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Hallellou, hallellou

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romanlion
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
According to Wikipedia the number of deaths caused by cars is very similar to the number of gun deaths, around 33,000 per year for both.

My fellow Carolinian specified homicide in his post. Your number includes suicides, which are nearly 2/3 of the total.

I think there is a significant distinction between cars and guns that goes to the crux of the politics of the issue in the US. Driving is a privilege.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
I think there is a significant distinction between cars and guns that goes to the crux of the politics of the issue in the US. Driving is a privilege.

To appropriate the words of my colleague down here: what the fuck is wrong with you people?
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:

I think there is a significant distinction between cars and guns that goes to the crux of the politics of the issue in the US. Driving is a privilege.

Oh, not this again.

This claim is pure nonsense. Driving is a right, as is liberty, being able to engage in commerce, raise children, and all the other normal things that people do all the time.

It's not explicitly enumerated in the Constitution, but that's OK. The ninth amendment quite clearly says that there are other rights.

And if you screw up, your rights get taken away. Commit a crime, and you'll lose your right to liberty. Don't take proper care of your kids and you'll lose the right to raise them.

There's no constitutional bar at all for a gun-owner's license requiring some kind of reasonable proficiency test. It can't be made capricious (cf. voting tests for black folks), but it's legal. There's no political will or support for it, though.

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
According to Wikipedia the number of deaths caused by cars is very similar to the number of gun deaths, around 33,000 per year for both.

My fellow Carolinian specified homicide in his post. Your number includes suicides, which are nearly 2/3 of the total.
Yes, well if someone is stupid enough to make an unfair comparison between gun homicide and all car deaths then it's only fair the field is levelled. I did that by comparing total gun deaths with total car deaths. Dead is dead, does it make much difference if by homicide or by accident?

Of course, many car deaths are suicides - either people deliberately stepping into traffic, or gassing themselves on exhaust fumes. I suppose some of those car deaths are homicides - we can't take our cars within sight of most airports these days after someone used their vehicle in an act of homicide.

quote:
I think there is a significant distinction between cars and guns that goes to the crux of the politics of the issue in the US. Driving is a privilege.
Yes, driving is a privilege. But, being able to wander into a school with a collection of guns and shoot down kids in their classes is a right? I feel like joining in the chorus of "what the fuck is wrong with you people?"

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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See, I want to say," shut the hell up, you cookie- eating motherfucker, Carol's a BADASS," but by saying that, I am saying, "A woman only earns the term badass when she becomes a female version of a gun toting, blood splashing male action figure fantasy," and that kind of has its fucked up side, don't you see?

I'm still a fan, but the thought does arise.

[ 16. October 2015, 03:01: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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MASSIVE page vertigo. Responding to this:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
No biggie, just a point of pride for me.

Although, returning to "Walking Dead" this season with this thread in mind has left a bad taste-- what is that show but an apologia for " frontier justice," when you come down to it? Some humans are not human anymore, and those who are human humans are justified in eridicating them.

Oh? I thought it was to promote the idea that women who are good at baking cookies, killing people and blowing shit up are great to have around unless they want to show you some flowers.


--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
I'm not really a gun proponent. I'm a proponent of the idea that you, orfeo, are more qualified than anyone else, the only one qualified, to make such a decision about such things in your life. If you want one, fine. If not, fine. It's your choice and your responsibility. It appears you don't have any guns. You do have a credibility that is completely lacking in any of our politicians who have armed guards yet try to lecture the rest of us. The can sod off.

Hear, hear.

I lived in DC during the gun ban. Being a city dweller, I did not want to own a gun, as it seemed to me that the risk/reward ratio was too skewed, so the ban didn't bother me. Right up until a guy repeatedly came to my front door (sliding glass) in order to try to peek through the curtain and masturbate.

Obviously I called the police, but they never came (a friend who was working on the force at the time said they were under orders to reduce crime by simply not taking crime reports). He never tried to get in, but all my police and military friends advised me to risk the legal consequences and buy a gun.

Didn't change my mind about the wisdom of an average urban or suburbanite keeping a gun in their home, but it did change my mind about whether or not the government should forbid it in all circumstances.

quote:
I believe it is impossible to calculate how many times guns have been used for protection. Should it be just how many times a gun was used? Shown? How many times would be burglars never even approached a property in the first place because of the thought folks might be armed?
Yep. It's an odd idea that a gun has to be fired in order to count as having been used for protection.

And unlike tasers, guns have legitimate uses beyond self defense. Doesn't make sense to have a gun for shooting vermin and a taser for self defense.

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, being able to wander into a school with a collection of guns and shoot down kids in their classes is a right?

Oh, yeah, sure. As long as you're defining an act that's not only illegal but generally a death penalty offense as being a right.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, being able to wander into a school with a collection of guns and shoot down kids in their classes is a right?

Oh, yeah, sure. As long as you're defining an act that's not only illegal but generally a death penalty offense as being a right.
If you're going to postulate that being able to drive a car is a privilage but owning guns is a right then logically that is a right that is something everyone can enjoy. Therefore, anyone can have guns, and anyone who feels like doing something illegal with them has the ability to do so. And, they then face the legal consequences of their actions. If you're going to defend the right of everyone to bear arms then you're going to have to face the consequences of that - which include young men walking into schools and shooting kids.

On the other hand, if you're going to say that not everyone would be permitted to own a gun then it's not a right but a privilege. In which case the legislature is free to enact whatever restrictions it wasn't to limit that privilege (subject to not so royally pissing off the electorate that they have no hope of regaining their seats next election).

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I seem to be faced with a wall of opinion that believes a blue uniform is somehow magic.

Far from it. Just that the rest of the civilised world assumes a general level of competence from their police officers, and especially where it comes to firearms training. In the UK, they're trained to fuck, and they still make crashing mistakes - though they do at least tend to shoot the person they were intending to hit, even when they ought not to have.

Perhaps it's time you started taking guns away from cops unless they can demonstrate some degree of accuracy and discernment, as suggested above.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
In the UK, they're trained to fuck,

I always assumed it was innate ability.

--------------------
Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave

Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I lived in DC during the gun ban. Being a city dweller, I did not want to own a gun, as it seemed to me that the risk/reward ratio was too skewed, so the ban didn't bother me. Right up until a guy repeatedly came to my front door (sliding glass) in order to try to peek through the curtain and masturbate.

Obviously I called the police, but they never came (a friend who was working on the force at the time said they were under orders to reduce crime by simply not taking crime reports). He never tried to get in, but all my police and military friends advised me to risk the legal consequences and buy a gun.

What the fuck is wrong... No, in your case we already have a fair idea.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Perhaps it's time you started taking guns away from cops unless they can demonstrate some degree of accuracy and discernment, as suggested above.

I was out this evening at a student party (I'm still wondering since when student parties finish at 9.30pm on a Friday night ... but never mind that) and was talking with the captain of the University archery society. They shoot at 30cm diameter targets at 30m, and consider it a very poor day if less than 50% of their arrows are on target. I couldn't help but compare that with the 70% of shots on target, at less than a quarter of the distance, requirement previously quoted here for a concealed carry permit. And, the suggestion that police officers aren't significantly better than that. When it comes down to a choice between a group of cops with guns trained to US standards and a bunch of kids with bows and arrows I know what would make me feel safer.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Also, cars are major contributors of CO2, are they not?

So they are actually killing everyone just a little each day, on top of the many people that they completely kill each day.

And they are not a necessity, as evidenced by the fact that for statistically all of human history we have survived without them, in both urban and rural environments.

As an argument, that doesn't even rise to the level of arm-waving. Flailing, maybe. And the whole car analogy is a fail anyway. How about an abortion analogy? Abortion is a constitutional right too, after all. So maybe gun buyers should have to wait 48 hours before actually getting the gun. They should have to watch a gory video of what happens when people get shot. And there should be crowds in front of every gun shop screaming "WANNA-BE MURDERER!!!" at the customers.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Just that the rest of the civilised world assumes a general level of competence from their police officers, and especially where it comes to firearms training. In the UK, they're trained to fuck, and they still make crashing mistakes - though they do at least tend to shoot the person they were intending to hit, even when they ought not to have.

A UK firearms officer has enormously more firearms training than a typical US cop, and also has much more restrictive rules governing the use of his weapon. Of course, because there aren't very many AFOs, you can have good training without it being prohibitively expensive. I'd guess the secret service could probably shoot straight, too.

(Another news report today - cop stops teenage kid, cop shoots teenage kid with taser, kid is not immobilized, but does get angry, cop shoots kid dead. All because (allegedly) the kid flashed the cop because the cop had his brights on.)

Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
And the whole car analogy is a fail anyway. How about an abortion analogy? Abortion is a constitutional right too, after all. So maybe gun buyers should have to wait 48 hours before actually getting the gun. They should have to watch a gory video of what happens when people get shot. And there should be crowds in front of every gun shop screaming "WANNA-BE MURDERER!!!" at the customers.

Heh. There is a meme going around that says just that, almost word for word. I posted it on my FB wall a week or so ago, along with the wish that someone would have the guts to say something like that on the floor of congress.

As for the emmissions thing-- romanlion is for some reason not telling you all that in most states, you cannot complete your yearly vehicle registration without submitting proof that your car has undergone a " smog test". So he is only pointing out another way that cars are more sensibly monitored than guns.

{Code fix, because fucking Ipad.]

[ 17. October 2015, 04:10: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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That's a "code-whoops", Kelly.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
See, I want to say," shut the hell up, you cookie- eating motherfucker, Carol's a BADASS," but by saying that, I am saying, "A woman only earns the term badass when she becomes a female version of a gun toting, blood splashing male action figure fantasy," and that kind of has its fucked up side, don't you see?

I'm still a fan, but the thought does arise.

In a world where the dead come back and eat folks, just what would "fucked up" mean?

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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It means the show glorifies the fucked-up, Wild West video game fantasy that many gun defending Americans appear to live in.
On a related tangent, it is also Randian porn.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It means the show glorifies the fucked-up, Wild West video game fantasy that many gun defending Americans appear to live in.
On a related tangent, it is also Randian porn.

Yeah, well, that's just your opinion, man.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Abortion is a constitutional right too, after all.

Keep spewing shit like this while wondering why you can't get gun control legislation passed. Go on. (I've decided it's fun to watch the left eat itself.)

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Yeah, well, that's just your opinion, man.

That comment totally brings the thread together. The Dude abides.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It means the show glorifies the fucked-up, Wild West video game fantasy that many gun defending Americans appear to live in.
On a related tangent, it is also Randian porn.

I was about type an elaborate response, but this works as well as anything I can come up with.

Also Barnabas? You are clearly a zombie and I must aim for the head.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Abortion is a constitutional right too, after all.

Keep spewing shit like this while wondering why you can't get gun control legislation passed. Go on. (I've decided it's fun to watch the left eat itself.)
Shooting folks is just post birth abortion. What's the problem. I also heard some genius saying that owning people and guns were both wanted by your founding slave raping and breeding USA constipation writers so what's the problem with either

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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If the genius was an American political satirist advocating a rewrite of the second amendment, then you have been reading my FB page's mind as well.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Shooting folks is just post birth abortion. What's the problem. I also heard some genius saying that owning people and guns were both wanted by your founding slave raping and breeding USA constipation writers so what's the problem with either
Huh?

[ 17. October 2015, 23:43: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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