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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
Golden Key
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# 1468

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Fair enough. [Smile] I wasn't sure which way you meant it.

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Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
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# 17338

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The land of the free and home of the brave: if freedom to "bear arms" is going to be supported then you must accept that mass-shootings are more likely.

The attack in San Bernardino brings to 352 the number of mass shootings in 2015, and means there are likely to be another 30 before 2016.

If the majority of the voting population in the US refuse to see the link between gun availability (and access to explosives, etc) and mass shootings then they must accept that this sort of event is going to keep on happening.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re legally-available guns:

Limiting them might prevent household shootings and accidents. But lots of people, criminals and not, would find other ways to get guns--second-hand, gun shows, probably online, and whatever ways criminals currently get illegal weapons.

And then there's DIY, like 3D printers.

Yes, let's just ignore the fact that other countries with lesser legal availability of weapons also have lesser rates of this kind of thing. Couldn't be any connection. Best leave the laws as they are.

While we're at it, let's not use any legal measures to discourage smoking. People will continue to smoke at exactly the same rate whether we restrict where they can do it or not. And people won't wear seatbelts more often if we make wearing one a legal requirement.

I know that's not literally what you're saying, but any time I see a variation of people pointing out that any rule change won't achieve a 100% reduction in events I want to [brick wall] . Demanding the perfect is the enemy of the good, and more often than not it's a fallacious argument generated by people who want to reject all change. But whether a new approach is perfect is not a sensible question. The real world question is always whether it would be better.

[ 03. December 2015, 11:15: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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passer

Indigo
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In my perception, any nation which is prepared to accept this sort of thing as some sort of collateral damage for their ability to willy-wave doesn't deserve much sympathy. If you can't legislate to address it in a democracy, you have to accept that the voters are prepared to tolerate the status quo. Whenever I see the latest aberration on the news I tend to just shake my head, shrug my shoulders, and move on. I hardly even think of the victims any more, so desensitized have I become in the face of these relentlessly predictable occurrences.
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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
lots of people, criminals and not, would find other ways to get guns--second-hand, gun shows, probably online, and whatever ways criminals currently get illegal weapons.

Well, for a start logic says that if you have some form of requirements for background checks and licenses that those requirements cover any means of buying guns. Make the law regarding license requirements the same for a gun-store, online retailer, gun-show merchant or pawn shop. It's fucking stupid if someone tries to buy a gun in a shop and fails because they can't satisfy the background check requirements, but they can then get the same gun online or at a gun show.

I saw some research a few months ago (and I can't be bothered to find it) that tracked where criminals got their guns. The main sources were a very small number of retailers who failed to check IDs properly and sold a large number of guns that ended up in the hands of criminals - the articles I saw said that at one time law enforcement agencies were able to "name and shame" these retailers, often forcing them out of business, but the NRA had blocked that tactic allowing these rouge retailers to continue to supply guns to criminals. Another major source was guns legally purchased in one jurisdiction that were then transported into areas with stricter gun laws. The other major route by which criminals get guns is by simply stealing them from the homes and vehicles of people who legally hold guns (which means if you buy guns to protect yourself or your property then you make yourself a target for thieves, and thieves who enter your home expecting you to be armed and so also likely to be armed).

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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Passer, L'Organist, and others, can we stop talking about "any nation" and other terms that lump all Americans in one boat? I bloody well don't have to accept this situation when I'm opposed to the set-up that makes it easier.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
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I am sure that the law enforcement officers dealing with the latest mass shooting are very pleased that the weapons used were purchased legally, and so were the [mostly dead] victims. Glad to see that idiots sometimes follow the law.

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Even more so than I was before

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passer

Indigo
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Passer, L'Organist, and others, can we stop talking about "any nation" and other terms that lump all Americans in one boat? I bloody well don't have to accept this situation when I'm opposed to the set-up that makes it easier.

No personal offence intended. However, this is a peculiarly American problem, no getting away from it. As a non-American there is precisely nothing I can do to solve it.
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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Passer, L'Organist, and others, can we stop talking about "any nation" and other terms that lump all Americans in one boat? I bloody well don't have to accept this situation when I'm opposed to the set-up that makes it easier.

How loud are those who are in favour of gun control shouting? I don't hear them.

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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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There are plenty of Americans saying they want tighter gun control.

They get drowned out by the NRA because money talks. And the NRA has lots of it.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Passer, L'Organist, and others, can we stop talking about "any nation" and other terms that lump all Americans in one boat? I bloody well don't have to accept this situation when I'm opposed to the set-up that makes it easier.

How loud are those who are in favour of gun control shouting? I don't hear them.
Like those in Britain arguing against Osborne's fake austerity policies. Plenty of noise on social media, bugger all on mass media (TV, radio and the press) because, over here too, money talks.

Remember the Golden Rule: Them 'as got the gold, makes the rules.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Gun makers love it.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Piglet
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There seems to be an understandable amount of speculation as to the reason (if you can call it such) behind the shooting (terrorism/disgruntled employee/drunken argument/whatever).

While I can appreciate that the law-enforcement authorities probably had little choice but to shoot the perpetrators to avoid any more innocent bloodshed, that has rather removed any chance of anyone finding out.

[ 03. December 2015, 16:56: Message edited by: Piglet ]

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Passer, L'Organist, and others, can we stop talking about "any nation" and other terms that lump all Americans in one boat? I bloody well don't have to accept this situation when I'm opposed to the set-up that makes it easier.

No, not all Americans masturbate in front of their gun collection wearing tinfoil hats so the government can't hear their thoughts. But enough people elect lawmakers who serve those who make money from guns being available.
Enough people who would like better gun control opt towards less because they are afraid of too much.
Not all Americans, but enough.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Fine. So does that mean that those of us in the (effective) minority have to put up with being scolded, derided, and told to "just deal with it"?

If I'm responsible for the choices of others until I can make them choose differently, it's going to be a long, long life.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by passer:
No personal offence intended. However, this is a peculiarly American problem, no getting away from it. As a non-American there is precisely nothing I can do to solve it.

No one is fucking asking you to solve it. But avoiding blanket generalizations would make life easier for those of us who do have to solve it.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Fine. So does that mean that those of us in the (effective) minority have to put up with being scolded, derided, and told to "just deal with it"?

Not what I am saying. In response to the Damn American comments, the typical response is "Not all of us". and this is true. However, it is just not as simple as Sane v. Insane, Anti v. Pro.
It is the middle that supports the outcomes.
I think the detractors of America should be more nuanced. But I also think that Americans* need to recognise the nuance of their own reality as well.
Not that you do not, but clearly most people don't.

*Goes to everywhere, but Americans are who we are addressing with this issue.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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There's a interweb meme just now, conflating guns and abortion. I think it's worthy. It goes approximately: How about we (by this we = Americans) treat every man who wants a gun like a woman who wants an abortion. 48 hr wait, video to watch about gun violence, someone to counsel him against it, close all the gun stores nearby, make him travel 4 or 10 hours away, make him walk through a crowd showing bloody pictures of people who've shot, get called a murderer. And an intrusive ultra sound just to keep it all even.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There's a interweb meme just now, conflating guns and abortion. I think it's worthy. It goes approximately: How about we (by this we = Americans) treat every man who wants a gun like a woman who wants an abortion. 48 hr wait, video to watch about gun violence, someone to counsel him against it, close all the gun stores nearby, make him travel 4 or 10 hours away, make him walk through a crowd showing bloody pictures of people who've shot, get called a murderer. And an intrusive ultra sound just to keep it all even.

I hope you plan to include women who want guns as well.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There's a interweb meme just now, conflating guns and abortion. I think it's worthy. It goes approximately: How about we (by this we = Americans) treat every man who wants a gun like a woman who wants an abortion. 48 hr wait, video to watch about gun violence, someone to counsel him against it, close all the gun stores nearby, make him travel 4 or 10 hours away, make him walk through a crowd showing bloody pictures of people who've shot, get called a murderer. And an intrusive ultra sound just to keep it all even.

The "Brady Law" had a cooling-off period for gun purchases (five days, if I remember). The data is, I think, consistent with this having reduced the number of gun suicides a little bit. It didn't have much other effect. In particular, perpetrators of mass killings seem to spend a long time nursing their grievances before they take action, so it's unlikely a cooling-off period for gun purchases would make a difference.

People are, of course, free to stand outside gun stores with pictures of people who have been shot, and call gun store customers whatever they like, in exactly the same manner that people stand outside clinics that perform abortions.

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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I suppose the tipping point will be when the 'freedom' to carry guns conflicts with the 'freedom' to go about an ordinary civil life without being shot. The impression, outside the US, is that that point has long since been reached. Even though I've been to the US many time without being murdered even once, I would be very reluctant to go again.

But presumably most American's don't yet feel they're living in a war zone?

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Fine. So does that mean that those of us in the (effective) minority have to put up with being scolded, derided, and told to "just deal with it"?

Not what I am saying. In response to the Damn American comments, the typical response is "Not all of us". and this is true. However, it is just not as simple as Sane v. Insane, Anti v. Pro.
It is the middle that supports the outcomes.
I think the detractors of America should be more nuanced. But I also think that Americans* need to recognise the nuance of their own reality as well.
Not that you do not, but clearly most people don't.

*Goes to everywhere, but Americans are who we are addressing with this issue.

So is it too much to ask that people identify correctly the ones they want to whale on?

Examples follow for the hard-of-thinking:

idiot gun owners, NRA, fools-who-don't-agree-with-me, Americans who are happy with the status quo

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

But presumably most American's don't yet feel they're living in a war zone?

No - because it isn't true. About 30,000 people are killed per year with guns in the US. Obviously that's far too many, but it's the same number as people who are killed in car accidents, and most Americans don't feel they're living in a car crash zone either.

Two thirds of those gun deaths are suicides, which don't contribute to any kind of "war zone" feeling.

If you're a young black man, you may well feel as though you're in a war zone - not so much because of the number of young black men that are killed by police officers, but because those form a small fraction of a very much larger pattern of casual intimidation and violence against young black men.

You don't get that with these kinds of spree killings. You get the killing, but there's no matching collection of violence without killing happening 100 times more often.

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ldjjd
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# 17390

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Well, I have come to treat driving as a war zone. I try not to do anything (no matter how much I may be in the right) that might irritate another driver for fear the respone may be a road rage shooting. Fucking omnipresent guns again.
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Dee.
Ship's Theological Acrobat
# 5681

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After all of this Americans must be crazy or fucking stupid to allow gun tv, a home shopping channel!

[ 04. December 2015, 00:26: Message edited by: Dee. ]

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There's a interweb meme just now, conflating guns and abortion. I think it's worthy.

I think it's one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard.

Every single abortion ends in death. About a million of 'em a year.

We buy tens of millions of guns each year in the US. An incredibly tiny percentage of those are involved in a death of any kind, and a majority of those are suicides.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There's a interweb meme just now, conflating guns and abortion. I think it's worthy.

I think it's one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard.

Every single abortion ends in death. About a million of 'em a year.

We buy tens of millions of guns each year in the US. An incredibly tiny percentage of those are involved in a death of any kind, and a majority of those are suicides.

Then if all the billions of dollars wasted on guns was available for childcare, a lot of those abortions might never have been necessary.

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(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
Well, I have come to treat driving as a war zone. I try not to do anything (no matter how much I may be in the right) that might irritate another driver for fear the respone may be a road rage shooting. Fucking omnipresent guns again.

Huh. And I try not to do anything that might get me pulled over and beaten, sexually assaulted, or killed by a cop. Fucking omnipresent government again.

I'm pretty sure my fear is more realistic. (Seriously, how often do you hear about road rage incidents? Because the current murder rate in my city is 1 in 2,000 and I never hear about them.)

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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390

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I live in metro Los Angeles, almost certainly the road rage capital of the world. The term was first used in a news cast here, after a spate of local highway shootings.
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There's a interweb meme just now, conflating guns and abortion. I think it's worthy.

I think it's one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard.

Every single abortion ends in death. About a million of 'em a year.

That makes sense to only someone who believes people can die before they are born.
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There's a interweb meme just now, conflating guns and abortion. I think it's worthy.

I think it's one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard.

Every single abortion ends in death. About a million of 'em a year.

That makes sense to only someone who believes people can die before they are born.
So it only makes sense to a shitload of people then...like 38 states and the federal government...

Okay, wow...good point Einstein.

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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390

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If, by some chance, you mean stillbirth, the rate is 26,00 a year in the US, the vast bulk of them due to natural causes, Mr. Science Guy.

[ 04. December 2015, 01:50: Message edited by: ldjjd ]

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
So is it too much to ask that people identify correctly the ones they want to whale on?

Nope. Perfectly reasonable.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
I live in metro Los Angeles, almost certainly the road rage capital of the world. The term was first used in a news cast here, after a spate of local highway shootings.

Doesn't answer my question. At this point anyone who believes the media about basically anything is an idiot.

I want stats on road rage shooting incidents.

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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
Well, I have come to treat driving as a war zone. I try not to do anything (no matter how much I may be in the right) that might irritate another driver for fear the respone may be a road rage shooting. Fucking omnipresent guns again.

Whereas if nobody had guns, you'd be perfectly happy to self-righteously irritate people?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
Well, I have come to treat driving as a war zone. I try not to do anything (no matter how much I may be in the right) that might irritate another driver for fear the respone may be a road rage shooting. Fucking omnipresent guns again.

Whereas if nobody had guns, you'd be perfectly happy to self-righteously irritate people?
I think it's kind of like when you get hit as a pedestrian in a crosswalk, you get up and hobble-run as best as you can in case the driver wants to finish you off. Apologizing for being in the way as you dodge the shrapnel.

I saw some insane rebroadcast advertisements this evening on our late news. The USA government has crack-powered public service ads as useful as the old "run, duck and cover" nuclear war ads. These ones go with "run, hide and fight". And suggest abandoning the wounded.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I saw some insane rebroadcast advertisements this evening on our late news. The USA government has crack-powered public service ads as useful as the old "run, duck and cover" nuclear war ads. These ones go with "run, hide and fight". And suggest abandoning the wounded.

And a link to evidence of these claims?

--------------------
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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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ldjjd
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# 17390

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L C,

By definition obeying traffic laws is not self-righteous. By "in the right" I meant obeying the law.

For example, I make every effort drive at or below the speed limit*. That irritates some people. When they honk, tailgarte, give me the finger, etc., I do my best to get out of their self-centered, unlawful way.

The idea that they may to start shooting does enter my mind. Maybe that's just me.

Have you driven in Los Angeles?

*My policy of obedience to the law may at least partilly explain why I've had no tickets or accidents in 58 years of driving - 30 of them in LA (Yes, I'm fuckin' ancient, but I don't putt along at 10mph when I drive.).

[ 04. December 2015, 03:16: Message edited by: ldjjd ]

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I saw some insane rebroadcast advertisements this evening on our late news. The USA government has crack-powered public service ads as useful as the old "run, duck and cover" nuclear war ads. These ones go with "run, hide and fight". And suggest abandoning the wounded.

And a link to evidence of these claims?
Shhhh, don't ask for evidence. It's not needed. Don't you understand? There exist people who are not Canadian. Poor dears. However do they manage, the benighted souls?

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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ldjjd
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# 17390

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
I live in metro Los Angeles, almost certainly the road rage capital of the world. The term was first used in a news cast here, after a spate of local highway shootings.

Doesn't answer my question. At this point anyone who believes the media about basically anything is an idiot.

I want stats on road rage shooting incidents.

So far, I've uncovered this:

In California, it's legally called "aggressive driving", and 37% of the cases involve a firearm.

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ldjjd
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# 17390

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Enough fuckin' research for me!

8% involve weapons other than guns, including tire irons, ice picks, even cross bows.

23% use their car as a weapon.

Shit fire!

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:

For example, I make every effort drive at or below the speed limit*. That irritates some people. When they honk, tailgarte, give me the finger, etc., I do my best to get out of their self-centered, unlawful way.

And do you only do that because you're afraid that they might have a gun and shoot you? Your post implied that, if you knew that they weren't armed, you'd be quite happy to irritate them and impede their desired progress, because you'd be in the right.

I merely suggest that you should endeavour not to irritate people unnecessarily whether or not you're afraid they might shoot you.

(Yes, I've driven in LA, but not terribly often. I can't say that it seemed that much worse than other big cities - maybe I got lucky.)

[ 04. December 2015, 04:11: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
If, by some chance, you mean stillbirth, the rate is 26,00 a year in the US, the vast bulk of them due to natural causes, Mr. Science Guy.

26,00 is not a number in the United States. Do you, by some chance, mean 26,000?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There's a interweb meme just now, conflating guns and abortion. I think it's worthy.

That's absurd. Pro-life people are against abortion but for gun deaths as the price we must pay to have the freedom we need.

Freedom from being gunned down is not a thing.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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bib
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# 13074

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Just get rid of the bloody guns

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390

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L C,
I hold obedience to traffic laws (yep, all of them) in high regard.

If the only consequence of this view were simple irritation on the part of some drivers, compliance with the laws would trump the irritation. Sorry, but that's me.

This may very well be an extreme view. It is, however, one I willingly compromise when the irritation seems to show signs of rage.

The possibility of violence and the use of guns*, in expressing this rage, definitely enters my mind in these situations. Again, that may be because I'm a nutter.

*I now realize that I'd rather face a gun than be beaten to death by a tire iron, fatally stabbed by an ice pick, or perish in a hail of arrows a la St. Sebastian. Guns, however, are the road ragers' weapon of choice and they too are not to be argued with.

[ 04. December 2015, 05:12: Message edited by: ldjjd ]

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ldjjd
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# 17390

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by ldjjd:
If, by some chance, you mean stillbirth, the rate is 26,00 a year in the US, the vast bulk of them due to natural causes, Mr. Science Guy.

26,00 is not a number in the United States. Do you, by some chance, mean 26,000?
Yes, mousethief. It's 26,000 - one of a myriad of examples of my impatient refusal to proofread, let alone preview post.
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Golden Key
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# 1468

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SS--

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Passer, L'Organist, and others, can we stop talking about "any nation" and other terms that lump all Americans in one boat? I bloody well don't have to accept this situation when I'm opposed to the set-up that makes it easier.

How loud are those who are in favour of gun control shouting? I don't hear them.
Like those in Britain arguing against Osborne's fake austerity policies. Plenty of noise on social media, bugger all on mass media (TV, radio and the press) because, over here too, money talks.

Remember the Golden Rule: Them 'as got the gold, makes the rules.

SS, thank you for that. [Smile]

And for readers in general,
back to page 7--this, and other things on that page from various Americans.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Shhhh, don't ask for evidence. It's not needed. Don't you understand? There exist people who are not Canadian. Poor dears. However do they manage, the benighted souls?

{Whispers "by putting maple syrup on our pancakes, but it's often from Vermont; maybe that's where we went 'wrong'?" [Biased] }

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390

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Another fuck up.

According to legend, St. Sebastian recovered from the wounds inflicted by the arrows but was later clubbed to death. I suppose there are people who drive around with a club at the ready.

Has anyone here ever seen a painting of St. Sebastian being bashed by clubs?

[ 04. December 2015, 05:34: Message edited by: ldjjd ]

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