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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
What exactly do you all suggest would have stopped this or any other mass shooting? And if you say bans and confiscation then you are an idiot.

Australia begs to differ.

quote:
Australia established strict gun control in response to a massacre in Tasmania that left 35 people dead in 1996. Since then, Australia hasn't witnessed any mass shootings.


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Improbable Botany

Posts: 8362 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by passer:
Quoting a FB acquaintance
quote:
If it's common sense to provide armed guards for elected officials, because a small handful have been shot, how can it not be common sense that we would benefit from the same thing after so many have been killed like sheep in places they are forbidden to protect themselves.

Because the secret service guys and gals have been extensively trained to handle a gun. If you want everyone to have the right to carry a gun for defence of themselves and others, fine. Just make sure they receive the level of training and psychological assessment that the secret service receive.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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The thing is, romanlion, we all tend to think that the way things are done wherever we happen to live is the 'norm'.

If they were suddenly to relax gun laws here in the UK everyone would think the government had gone stark staring mad.

I wasn't aware of how easy it was to get hold of assault rifles and so on back in the 1980s until the Hungerford Massacre. That led to stiffer legislation. As did the Dunblane tragedy. The last gun massacre to take place here in the UK was carried out with legally owned shotguns.

No one is calling for a ban on those.

Of course no-one's saying that bans or confiscations would prevent all such incidents - but you have to admit they seem all too common on your side of the Pond and far less common in most Western European countries as well as Australia and other Anglophone countries.

You have to ask yourself why that is.

And whether the rest of us are 'idiots'.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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Bans and confiscation are not going to happen in the US. We are in Kansas, not Oz.

Next?

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1351 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Bans and confiscation are not going to happen in the US. We are in Kansas, not Oz.

Why not? Because you all love shooting each other and burying your kids so much?

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Bans and confiscation are not going to happen in the US. We are in Kansas, not Oz.

Why not? Because you all love shooting each other and burying your kids so much?
Yes, yes of course!

My wife an I are pregnant right now because we are fresh out of kids to shoot and bury.

[Roll Eyes]

Because the Constitution.

If we had wanted to remain a colony we could have. We didn't.

If the UK had wanted to remain the driver of the world's economy and culture they should have fought a little harder I guess.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Bans and confiscation are not going to happen in the US. We are in Kansas, not Oz.

Next?

I believe it would involve less loss of liberty than the Homeland Security Act (including the USA Patriot Act and more besides). It might even save more lives too.

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If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Bans and confiscation are not going to happen in the US. We are in Kansas, not Oz.

Next?

I believe it would involve less loss of liberty than the Homeland Security Act (including the USA Patriot Act and more besides). It might even save more lives too.
Yeah, this boggles my mind. The Land of the Free accepts a massive limit on freedom so readily.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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BroJames
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# 9636

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
What does "common sense" gun regulation actually mean?

I think there are some obvious minimal possibilities here;
  • No gun ownership without a licence
  • No licence without a criminal record check and a health (including mental health) check
  • Only guns which have a reasonable personal use within a broadly peaceful society (Not automatics or assault weapons)
  • Guns only to be sold to people who can produce a valid licence to own, and photo and address ID
  • Any gun or ammunition not in use to be kept securely locked away against theft or access by children (you could except a gun kept in a location for immediate self-defence - although, without some kind of security, I actually think that's statistically a stupid idea)
  • Any breach of the regulations should lead to an automatic review of whether a person may continue to hold a licence

Posts: 3171 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Bans and confiscation are not going to happen in the US. We are in Kansas, not Oz.

Why not? Because you all love shooting each other and burying your kids so much?
Yes, yes of course!

My wife an I are pregnant right now because we are fresh out of kids to shoot and bury.

[Roll Eyes]

Because the Constitution.

If we had wanted to remain a colony we could have. We didn't.

If the UK had wanted to remain the driver of the world's economy and culture they should have fought a little harder I guess.

That's just so fucking moronic.

Look, no one's planning on re-colonising the USofA. Least of all the UK.

Your government has the worlds most powerful military at it's disposal, including a nuclear arsenal capable of burning the planet to a cinder several times over. Compared to that a few rednecks with their semi-automatics "just for killin' a few deer" are going to make no bloody different.

Life isn't a movie. A bunch of high school kids aren't going to turn the tide against a Commie invasion. You're not going to need to blast away an endless tide of zombies. And, your best defence against an alien invasion is the common cold.

I'm sure there are some arguments in favour of ordinary people having guns that are worth discussing. Yours sure aren't among them.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Bans and confiscation are not going to happen in the US. We are in Kansas, not Oz.

Why not? Because you all love shooting each other and burying your kids so much?

Yes, yes of course!

My wife an I are pregnant right now because we are fresh out of kids to shoot and bury.

[Roll Eyes]

Because the Constitution.

If we had wanted to remain a colony we could have. We didn't.

If the UK had wanted to remain the driver of the world's economy and culture they should have fought a little harder I guess.

That's just so fucking moronic.


You started it, bud.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1351 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
passer

Indigo
# 13329

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Enter stage Right: repr'sentin' the status quo and wingnuts everywhere,
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Bans and confiscation are not going to happen in the US. We are in Kansas, not Oz.

Next?

Nuthin's gonna change round here boy, nuthin'. We fought for the right to arm ourselves needlessly, and we'll fight to keep our guns, even if we have to kill everyone who has a different point of view. My ancestors didn't come to this country so that they could be terrorised by immigrants. (wait, what?) Fuckin' Democrats, with their fancy ideas about letting people have opinions that go against Republican ideology. It's the arms companies and the NRA who pay to run this country, not the bleeding-heart liberals. (ambles off humming Duelling Banjos.)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:


Because the Constitution.

Yeah, because nobody changed the US Constitution once it had been written, right?

Cast in stone, impossible to change. Other than the 27 times that it was.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Bans and confiscation are not going to happen in the US. We are in Kansas, not Oz.

Next?

No, you're not Australia. However,

quote:
What exactly do you all suggest would have stopped this or any other mass shooting? And if you say bans and confiscation then you are an idiot.
is empirically wrong. Bans and confiscations clearly, evidentially, do decrease drastically or totally eliminate mass shootings. You don't accept that - but we have a word for people who don't accept provable facts. That word is 'wrong'.

The 2nd amendment to your constitution allows you to have a small arsenal at home: it also allows members of your citizenry to use legally-held guns to kill large numbers of their fellows on a remarkably regular basis. Good for you. Most of the rest of the world thinks you're fucking nuts for allowing this situation to exist, let alone let it continue.

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Improbable Botany

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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The Onion is way ahead of you, romanlion

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:


Because the Constitution.

Yeah, because nobody changed the US Constitution once it had been written, right?

Cast in stone, impossible to change. Other than the 27 times that it was.

Hillary should make repeal of the second amendment a platform plank then. That should just about seal the election for her.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by passer:
I'm really not sure how one would address this kind of logic from an administrative or legislative perspective.

By telling him that his chance of successfully using a gun to deal with a criminal is approximately 1 in 23, and asking him whether he'd buy any other appliance that only worked correctly once in every 23 attempts? The other 22 times the gun is fired, it will have gone off accidentally, or be used for suicide, or will be used against you by the criminal.

That's the biggest piece of bullshit about guns for protection - that everyone manages to believe that good people hit the target while bad people miss. Because that's what happens in Hollywood movies, right? The star lead shoots truly and wins the day, while the baddies have really bad aim.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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That headline in the Onion has been used before, and it's a killer: "'no way to prevent this', says only nation where this regularly happens." I'm not sure if it's the only nation with regular massacres.

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one City, United, Love MCR!

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I don't think when romanlion says, you're an idiot if you favour bans and confiscations, that means that bans don't work, does it? I assume it means that bans are simply politically unacceptable in the US.

Trouble is, this becomes circular and self-fulfilling. It's not acceptable because I don't accept it.

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one City, United, Love MCR!

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think when romanlion says, you're an idiot if you favour bans and confiscations, that means that bans don't work, does it? I assume it means that bans are simply politically unacceptable in the US.

[Overused]

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
... The 2nd amendment to your constitution allows you to have a small arsenal at home: it also allows members of your citizenry to use legally-held guns to kill large numbers of their fellows on a remarkably regular basis. Good for you. Most of the rest of the world thinks you're fucking nuts for allowing this situation to exist, let alone let it continue.

Strictly speaking, the current interpretations of the 2nd Amendment allow small arsenals at home. The 2nd Amendment was written to allow Southern states to have armed slave patrols a.k.a. "militia". All the arguments about brave Colonists hunting and defending their homes from tyrannical gummints are post hoc mythological bullshit. How that came about is a long story. What isn't a long story is that the 2nd Amendment has NEVER, EVER been interpreted as allowing anybody to have any weapon. It is perfectly legal and constitutional to place reasonable limits on weapons and their owners. It's just politically challenging.

And I'm sick and fucking tired of everybody instantly turning to mental illness as an explanation for these horrors. Lots of healthy people shoot each other on a regular basis over the stupidest things. And it's not like a healthy person can't buy 27 guns and THEN get sick ... but doctors aren't allowed to ask their patients about guns in the home because of the fucking gun nuts. They're the real crazies - the ones who think the likelihood of an accidental or deliberate shooting is totally worth it for their Walter Mitty fantasy of being Rambo one day.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think when romanlion says, you're an idiot if you favour bans and confiscations, that means that bans don't work, does it? I assume it means that bans are simply politically unacceptable in the US.

[Overused]
This we know already. It's just ironic that the one thing that has been proven to work is the one thing that won't happen.

Ironic? Sorry: I meant fucking nuts.

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Improbable Botany

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think when romanlion says, you're an idiot if you favour bans and confiscations, that means that bans don't work, does it? I assume it means that bans are simply politically unacceptable in the US.

[Overused]
Nice quote-mining.

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one City, United, Love MCR!

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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I thought the National Guard was the "Well-regulated Militia". Then again, it's organisaed by the Feds and they aren't to be trusted. Heck, aren't they the ones who put airbags in your car? Dammit, I want the freedom to turn my brain to mush on the dashboard.

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If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I'm going to suggest a compromise: those in favour of gun regulation will just tut and roll our eyes when someone with a gun and a grudge commits a mass shooting. In return, those not in favour will have to say: "We know how to stop this from happening but refuse to act because we are spoilt, petulant, selfish moral pygmies."

How does that sound?

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Improbable Botany

Posts: 8362 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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What could Barry be waiting for?

Has he misplaced his pen?

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1351 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Bans are not forbidden in the US. Here's the problem-- suppose you ban certain users from having guns.Then you send the feds to go take them from those people. How do you think a gun owner is going to prevent you from taking his gun?
Especially if they have people like the NRA giving them a route for organization?

What happened ' the last time we had this discussion"? Assholes responded to the pleas of their fellow Americans by wandering shopping malls with rifles strapped on their backs. Do you not see how this behavior might demonstrate a threat? And might effect how people have the discussion in the first place? As bold as Obama's statement was, he had to throw in that " we aren't coming for your guns" mantra, didn't he?

Upthread someone said, " the situation is going to snowball." No, it already has snowballed. And avalanched. Decades ago. A very huge fucking genie is out of the bottle and is roaming around with an M-16. No, make that a million genies. And the reponse to " put that down" is always gonna be " Him first."

My nephew was a very troubled kid, who at age 17 got his hands on a weapon, and shot himself and another person. Do you not think I wish there was something in place that would have prevented hm from getting his hands on a gun in the first place? Some screening procedure that would have told a retailer, holy shit, this kid is underage and has a background of gang association. Do not sell.

His brother is a gun nut. So, just to add to whatever redneck bohunk Murrican images you got going there- 19 year old Latino American boy, hanging out with a dodgy group-- their opinion of the gun control debate is that whatever laws are passed will only serve to make sure people of color are unarmed and white folk control the guns. Ok, talk him out of that. Go ahead, it's easy, right?

You know what this conversation is like? It is like living up to your neck in raw sewage, so thick you can't move your arms.. There are a row of people standing in an observation deck, with their hands on the output valve, arguing about whether it is actually sewage or not, many idiots standing in there with you crapping their pants and proudly announcing it, and the rest if the world is folding their arms and saying, you must love the smell or you wouldn't stay there. And responding to your cries of despair by shrugging and pointing at the pants crappers.

A second amendment harpy obviously doesn't give a shit that ( for instance) hundreds of children in the SF Bay Area are growing up in places like Hunter's Point and East Palo Alto, crammed into Section 8 housing smack dab in the middle of gang holdouts, surrounded by people who are ready to shoot at the drop of the hat and people who think the only way to be prepared for life there is to get another damn gun. He doesn't care that hundreds of kids are living under such consistant fear that they have to be taught to play some other games besides gun play-- that it's not that they occasionally make a block into a gun, but that they never put the pretend guns down.

But which of the rest of you do, either? It's more fun to rub people's face in the sewage, it appears. Five or six Americans come on this thread expressing their frustration and outrage about gun laws, about how lack of such effects them and their communities, and you pick fucking romanlion as our poster boy? Fuck that.

And if you do care, why not lend your support and encouragement to American folk who are actually engaged n the colossal task of figuring out how to get those genies back in the bottle? Or at least acknowledge they exist?

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
What could Barry be waiting for?

Has he misplaced his pen?

Do you actually understand the constitutional arrangements of your own country?

It's bizarrely amusing that there are folks in your country who not only justify guns as a means of resisting tyranny, but also believe that you still have a tyrant anyway.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 17916 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
and you pick fucking romanlion as our poster boy?

We really didn't.

That makes about as much sense as suggesting that on the thread about homosexuality, I took the straight people expressing homophobia as the "poster boys" for all straight people because those are the ones I spent my time arguing with.

[ 02. October 2015, 15:49: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
What could Barry be waiting for?

Has he misplaced his pen?

I'm sorry? I think you meant to say: "I know how to stop this from happening but refuse to act because I am a spoilt, petulant, selfish moral pygmy."

--------------------
Improbable Botany

Posts: 8362 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
... The 2nd amendment to your constitution allows you to have a small arsenal at home: it also allows members of your citizenry to use legally-held guns to kill large numbers of their fellows on a remarkably regular basis. Good for you. Most of the rest of the world thinks you're fucking nuts for allowing this situation to exist, let alone let it continue.

Strictly speaking, the current interpretations of the 2nd Amendment allow small arsenals at home. The 2nd Amendment was written to allow Southern states to have armed slave patrols a.k.a. "militia". All the arguments about brave Colonists hunting and defending their homes from tyrannical gummints are post hoc mythological bullshit. How that came about is a long story. What isn't a long story is that the 2nd Amendment has NEVER, EVER been interpreted as allowing anybody to have any weapon. It is perfectly legal and constitutional to place reasonable limits on weapons and their owners. It's just politically challenging.

And I'm sick and fucking tired of everybody instantly turning to mental illness as an explanation for these horrors. Lots of healthy people shoot each other on a regular basis over the stupidest things. And it's not like a healthy person can't buy 27 guns and THEN get sick ... but doctors aren't allowed to ask their patients about guns in the home because of the fucking gun nuts. They're the real crazies - the ones who think the likelihood of an accidental or deliberate shooting is totally worth it for their Walter Mitty fantasy of being Rambo one day.

Excellellent post.


" Mental illness" is all well and good as a distraction, but nobody is addressing the collective PTSD of people who are born, live, and die in areas of high gun violence. At least, not in a functional way. The mental illness is group chronic fear.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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Imagine for a moment that tomorrow the US passes Oz style gun restrictions.

How do you see the enforcement proceeding?

Australia's "buy-back" program netted between 500,000 and a million guns, depending on your source. Between a quarter and a third of guns, again depending.

US citizens own orders of magnitude more firearms than this. Call it plus or minus one firearm for every man, woman, and child in the country.

A "buy-back" wouldn't even scratch the surface, but let's pretend that through some miracle red-neck epiphany they manage to buy back half of those. We are still in the >hundred million guns range.

Are we going to do door to door searches? Do you think that would increase or decrease the odds of violence? How many police and/or military personnel would refuse the order? How much money would be reasonable to spend on such an effort? Would otherwise law-abiding gun owners who refused to comply become felonious criminals? Would we have more success against the instantaneous black market that would spring up than we have against "illegal" drugs? If not, what would be the point?

Connecticut, bluer than blue, can't even enforce it's own reactionary sandy hook gun laws.

I imagine Sisyphus picking up a gun a blowing his brains out...

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Posts: 1351 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
and you pick fucking romanlion as our poster boy?

We really didn't.

That makes about as much sense as suggesting that on the thread about homosexuality, I took the straight people expressing homophobia as the "poster boys" for all straight people because those are the ones I spent my time arguing with.

I am hearing a lot of frustation about how " we" won't get the laws changed without much.acknowledgement of what an epic task even getting people to discuss the issue is. And I'm sorry, your very first comment on this thread was a " what do you expect from Those People?" shrug. If you actually give a fuck about us, it's not coming across.

Do me a favor, read my comment about my nephew the gun nut and come up with an argument against his iron clad assumption that gun control laws are an excuse to put Latinos and black people at a disadvantage. I tried for an hour one Christmas. Nothing I said landed. Maybe people who have fixed the problem might supply us their magic rhetoric.

[ 02. October 2015, 16:07: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Imagine for a moment that tomorrow the US passes Oz style gun restrictions.

How do you see the enforcement proceeding?

Australia's "buy-back" program netted between 500,000 and a million guns, depending on your source. Between a quarter and a third of guns, again depending.

US citizens own orders of magnitude more firearms than this. Call it plus or minus one firearm for every man, woman, and child in the country.

A "buy-back" wouldn't even scratch the surface, but let's pretend that through some miracle red-neck epiphany they manage to buy back half of those. We are still in the >hundred million guns range.

Are we going to do door to door searches? Do you think that would increase or decrease the odds of violence? How many police and/or military personnel would refuse the order? How much money would be reasonable to spend on such an effort? Would otherwise law-abiding gun owners who refused to comply become felonious criminals? Would we have more success against the instantaneous black market that would spring up than we have against "illegal" drugs? If not, what would be the point?

Connecticut, bluer than blue, can't even enforce it's own reactionary sandy hook gun laws.

I imagine Sisyphus picking up a gun a blowing his brains out...

"Waah, waah, waah," said the moral pygmy. "It's too hard."

Fucking grow a pair and sort it. One gun at a time if you have to. People - people you know and perhaps even love - are dying. Set an example and have yours melted down. Maybe then Kelly's nephew will start to take notice.

--------------------
Improbable Botany

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Imagine for a moment that tomorrow the US passes Oz style gun restrictions.

How do you see the enforcement proceeding?

Australia's "buy-back" program netted between 500,000 and a million guns, depending on your source. Between a quarter and a third of guns, again depending.

US citizens own orders of magnitude more firearms than this. Call it plus or minus one firearm for every man, woman, and child in the country.

A "buy-back" wouldn't even scratch the surface, but let's pretend that through some miracle red-neck epiphany they manage to buy back half of those. We are still in the >hundred million guns range.

Are we going to do door to door searches? Do you think that would increase or decrease the odds of violence? How many police and/or military personnel would refuse the order? How much money would be reasonable to spend on such an effort? Would otherwise law-abiding gun owners who refused to comply become felonious criminals? Would we have more success against the instantaneous black market that would spring up than we have against "illegal" drugs? If not, what would be the point?

Connecticut, bluer than blue, can't even enforce it's own reactionary sandy hook gun laws.

I imagine Sisyphus picking up a gun a blowing his brains out...

"Waah, waah, waah," said the moral pygmy. "It's too hard."

Fucking grow a pair and sort it. One gun at a time if you have to.

Excellent suggestion! Thank you very much!

I will forward your profound insight directly to the White House, home of the greatest moral pygmy of us all.

Posts: 1351 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Do me a favor, read my comment about my nephew the gun nut and come up with an argument against his iron clad assumption that gun control laws are an excuse to put Latinos and black people at a disadvantage. I tried for an hour one Christmas. Nothing I said landed. Maybe people who have fixed the problem might supply us their magic rhetoric.

But that's a problem we never had. We don't have the same race relations issues that you do (which is not to say that we haven't had race relations issues), so I can't tell you how to solve them.

As to the whole business of who is "we" and who is "those people" etc etc... well, to be honest a key difficulty in the USA is that your entire culture is very individualistic, meaning that it's very difficult for a majority to impose upon a minority for the good of society as a whole. To put it another way, even if 90% of Americans support significant changes to gun laws, your culture tends to celebrate the ability of a few percent who don't want that to loudly say "FUCK YOU" and carry on crapping in their pants or whatever metaphor you choose.

That contributes. Your problem is not just a gun culture, it's a take on the world culture. The great American dream isn't a cohesive society, it's being the one to beat all the other fuckers to the top of the greasy pole.

If America wants to defeat the scourge of guns, it's not going to be about physically taking the guns (although that would sure help), it's going to be about changing an entire mindset that says a person who confronts the world and solves his problems with a weapon is a hero. That's going to be a truly colossal effort.

But it's going to have to be an American effort. For one thing, there's American exceptionalism, which translates into a mindset that America is there to teach the world things and doesn't have things to learn. When Bernie Sanders suggests doing something more like Europe (I can't even remember what the topic was), people are shocked.

[ 02. October 2015, 16:46: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Excellent suggestion! Thank you very much!

I will forward your profound insight directly to the White House, home of the greatest moral pygmy of us all.

Irony isn't your strong point. Neither is making obviously moral decisions.

You. What are you going to do? Apart from bleat on that it's not your fault, it's not your problem, you can't think of a solution, you don't have to act. Spoilt, petulant, selfish moral pygmy.

[ 02. October 2015, 17:06: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

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Improbable Botany

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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@ romanlion

Of course it is not possible to "do an Oz" in the US context. That's not really the issue.

See here from recent history

The NRA is a most powerful lobbyist and represents some very powerful interests. It is able to mobilise a blocking majority even against modest reforms. And what was the nub of their counter-argument. Why it was this!

quote:
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," Wayne LaPierre of the NRA
The only thing? The attempted legislation which was voted down was modest, but it would have been a start. Even something as modest as this was lost.

quote:
The Manchin-Toomey Amendment was a bi-partisan piece of legislation sponsored by Joe Manchin, a Democrat, and Republican Sen. Pat Toomey that would require background checks on most private party firearm sales. The bill known as Manchin Amendment No. 715 was voted on and defeated on April 17, 2013 by a vote of 54 - 46 because in order to pass it needed 60.
The NRA would appear to have the votes in their capacious pockets.

[ 02. October 2015, 17:23: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20554 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Do me a favor, read my comment about my nephew the gun nut and come up with an argument against his iron clad assumption that gun control laws are an excuse to put Latinos and black people at a disadvantage. I tried for an hour one Christmas. Nothing I said landed. Maybe people who have fixed the problem might supply us their magic rhetoric.

But that's a problem we never had. We don't have the same race relations issues that you do (which is not to say that we haven't had race relations issues), so I can't tell you how to solve them.

As to the whole business of who is "we" and who is "those people" etc etc... well, to be honest a key difficulty in the USA is that your entire culture is very individualistic, meaning that it's very difficult for a majority to impose upon a minority for the good of society as a whole. To put it another way, even if 90% of Americans support significant changes to gun laws, your culture tends to celebrate the ability of a few percent who don't want that to loudly say "FUCK YOU" and carry on crapping in their pants or whatever metaphor you choose.

That contributes. Your problem is not just a gun culture, it's a take on the world culture. The great American dream isn't a cohesive society, it's being the one to beat all the other fuckers to the top of the greasy pole.

If America wants to defeat the scourge of guns, it's not going to be about physically taking the guns (although that would sure help), it's going to be about changing an entire mindset that says a person who confronts the world and solves his problems with a weapon is a hero. That's going to be a truly colossal effort.

But it's going to have to be an American effort. For one thing, there's American exceptionalism, which translates into a mindset that America is there to teach the world things and doesn't have things to learn. When Bernie Sanders suggests doing something more like Europe (I can't even remember what the topic was), people are shocked.

You are pretty much preaching to the choir, saying stuff I am pretty sure I've said myself. If not in this thread, on the last two or three. I am fully aware of the difficulties facing people who want gun control. You really become hyper-- aware of those problems when you are fighting them.

I wanted to put a face on the debate, though. In my work, I am pretty much on the front lines of this stuff-- trying to teach kids that individualism needs to be balanced by community, that cooperation is more rewarding than fighting to be first, that wise people are willing to learn from others rather than being content with "exceptionalism." You say, " I can't help you with your nephew" but that is exactly where the front line is-- Americans trying to reason with other Americans. Individuals bucking heads with individualism. And I am saying ( again) when you don't acknowledge that people are actually attacking the front line, it does nothing to help,them progress.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35015 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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And another thing--- a childcare professional is also on the front lines of dealing with the fallout ofa sick culture-- kids come into schools bringing the attitudes and values of their environment, and very often challnging those attitudes is the first step in helping a kid learn to socialize. Please don't lecture me on how damaged "YOUR culture" is as if I don't know it-- it's kind of like telling an ER nurse about the prevalence of auto accidents. I assure you I am up to my neck in it.

[ 02. October 2015, 17:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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PilgrimVagrant
Shipmate
# 18442

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Hmmm.

Seems to me the reason why the UK, and Australia, and New Zealand, etc, have been able to enact effective gun control laws is because we do actually love our neighbour, and regret his/her passing, and sorrow with his/her family. I am not persuaded the same is true of the US.

Cheers, PV.

--------------------
Omnes Qui Errant Non Pereunt
Not all who wander are lost

Posts: 210 | From: In Contemplation | Registered: Jul 2015  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
@ romanlion

Of course it is not possible to "do an Oz" in the US context. That's not really the issue.

See here from recent history

The NRA is a most powerful lobbyist and represents some very powerful interests. It is able to mobilise a blocking majority even against modest reforms. And what was the nub of their counter-argument. Why it was this!

quote:
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," Wayne LaPierre of the NRA
The only thing? The attempted legislation which was voted down was modest, but it would have been a start. Even something as modest as this was lost.

quote:
The Manchin-Toomey Amendment was a bi-partisan piece of legislation sponsored by Joe Manchin, a Democrat, and Republican Sen. Pat Toomey that would require background checks on most private party firearm sales. The bill known as Manchin Amendment No. 715 was voted on and defeated on April 17, 2013 by a vote of 54 - 46 because in order to pass it needed 60.
The NRA would appear to have the votes in their capacious pockets.

And it seems like the more you point out things like this are happening, the more you get," You must like the smell..."

Sometimes this American's Gordian Knot solution seems tempting.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Please don't lecture me on how damaged "YOUR culture" is as if I don't know it

I'm not lecturing you. You're choosing to read things as being in opposition to you, personally, whether they are intended that way or not. It's your culture because you're in it, not because you have personal responsibility and ownership for the whole of the generalised characteristics of several hundred million people. And in English, the words for second person singular and second person plural are the same.

Do you honestly want me to say "their culture", as if you're not an American in America? To actively exclude you from your own society?

And your whole "you must like the smell" thing is bullshit. Certainly, your response to barnabas' post is bullshit. When people say "there's a smell over there, something ought to be done about it", stop implying "you must like the smell" into those words. WE GET THAT IT'S HARD.

[ 02. October 2015, 18:47: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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passer

Indigo
# 13329

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Not that it should have any particular impact on the proceedings, but this does appear rather ironic.
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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Actually, I'm sorry, Barnabas-- I focused on the content rather than your compassionate tone. You seem to recognise that the situation involves a large number of human beings in very serious trouble, rather than some faceless Evil Empire.

It feels like Congress just wants us all to kill each other-- "to reduce the surplus population."

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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So he went to a specialist EBD school with a focus on autism. Wore the same military style outfit every day. Either didn't socially interact or became extremely angry about noise levels most people would tolerate easily. And had something like 15 legally held fire arms. Social media profile about how fab the IRA were as an undefeated army. Posted threats on 4chan.

Give it a few days and the triggering incident will have been discovered.

So far, sequence as predicted.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

Posts: 19052 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Please don't lecture me on how damaged "YOUR culture" is as if I don't know it

I'm not lecturing you. You're choosing to read things as being in opposition to you, personally, whether they are intended that way or not. It's your culture because you're in it, not because you have personal responsibility and ownership for the whole of the generalised characteristics of several hundred million people. And in English, the words for second person singular and second person plural are the same.

Do you honestly want me to say "their culture", as if you're not an American in America? To actively exclude you from your own society?

And your whole "you must like the smell" thing is bullshit. Certainly, your response to barnabas' post is bullshit. When people say "there's a smell over there, something ought to be done about it", stop implying "you must like the smell" into those words. WE GET THAT IT'S HARD.

I don't think you are talking to me personally, but I,don't think you get how unhelpful this us and them language is. We ( if I can be collective) need to heal from exceptionalism and all that other stuff if we are going to survive. Those of us who want that could use backup!

Look back at Ani's song-- published a year before 9/11. She spelled it right out-- the people most impacted by this shit have the least voice. THAT'S WHAT'S HARD.

I thnk the current push to stop celebrating the shooter and uphold the victims is what is needed-- the America parking its ass in a Congress chairs is not the America that is bleeding. We won't change thing by giving more power to powerful assholes-- in this case, by allowing their mindset to define America-- but by upholding the America that needs more voices. The Tom Joad America. The Joe Hill America.

I think y'all Oz/ Brits can be more of a force for good in that respect than you realize. For one thing, I don't think you realize how incredibly healing it is to heat someone ( like Barnabas, or Alan) say, " how can these fucks treat their own people this way?"
YES! THANK YOU!

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35015 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
@ romanlion

Of course it is not possible to "do an Oz" in the US context. That's not really the issue.

See here from recent history

The NRA is a most powerful lobbyist and represents some very powerful interests. It is able to mobilise a blocking majority even against modest reforms. And what was the nub of their counter-argument. Why it was this!

quote:
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," Wayne LaPierre of the NRA
The only thing? The attempted legislation which was voted down was modest, but it would have been a start. Even something as modest as this was lost.

quote:
The Manchin-Toomey Amendment was a bi-partisan piece of legislation sponsored by Joe Manchin, a Democrat, and Republican Sen. Pat Toomey that would require background checks on most private party firearm sales. The bill known as Manchin Amendment No. 715 was voted on and defeated on April 17, 2013 by a vote of 54 - 46 because in order to pass it needed 60.
The NRA would appear to have the votes in their capacious pockets.

The NRA has never gotten a dime of support from me, or any of my family so far as I know, and I cannot recall ever seeing a single piece of mail addressed to me from them, paper or electronic.

Personally I don't see their particular brand of manipulation as any more insidious than the financial lobby, or the pharmaceutical lobby, or the military/defense lobby.

--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I think that ignoring the shooter is a mistake, because it is not random. Aside from the gun control issues, people who are fine do not do things like this. I know people with mental health issues and developmental disorders are usually not violent more at risk from others than a risk to others.

But.

People who do things like this are almost always seriously disturbed and almost always showing significant signs of deterioration first. Notoriety is a side issue, and suppressing talk about the perpetrator potentially risks suppressing the debate that needs to happen about mental health care.

--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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@ romanlion

That looks like a non-sequitur to me. Why should they lobby you?

[Unless of course you are a congressman or a senator whose vote on gun laws might need a bit of encouragement.]

[ 02. October 2015, 19:21: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20554 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged



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