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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Fucking Guns (Page 21)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If anyone waves a gun around, anytime and anywhere I would kick their ass so hard they would need a wheelchair for a week. So would my b-I-l and he's a gamekeeper. He's a peaceable chap, but prats with guns really get his goat.

And you're confident in your ability to kick a gun-wielder's ass without getting shot?

Interesting.

Anybody else seen American Sniper?

Yeah. That was about a guy who took weapons seriously, and it still screwed him up.
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Mere Nick
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# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The NRA has a no-gun policy at their annual convention.

That's a false statement according to Snopes.

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Kelly Alves

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OK, fair enough.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The NRA has a no-gun policy at their annual convention.

That's a false statement according to Snopes.
No loaded guns at guns shows isn't. Wonder why they have that rule...

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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The title at the top of that Snopes page is currently:

quote:
National Trifle Association
.

[Killing me] Hacktivists?

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la vie en rouge
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I feel the need to find out where the NRA convention is so I can stand outside waving a placard.

I think I’ll go with “Parisians hate guns”*. Is anyone willing to start a whip-round to pay the air fare?

*On which topic, no the Bataclan would not have been less horrific if the audience had been armed. When the police and army (very quickly) turned up, they succeeded in shooting a grand total of one of the terrorists. That was the best that highly trained police and soldiers could do. To think that Joe Public would have done any better is fantasy.

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Alan Cresswell

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I suppose a couple of dozen armed Joe Public's might have taken out one or more terrorists. But, with all those bullets flying around they might have resulted in taking more lives than the terrorists managed - with shots off target, and the high probability in (I assume, since the lights would have been on stage) a situation with reduced lighting of mistaking another concert goer for one of the bad guys.

Basically a gun in the hands of anyone without the training given to specialist armed police* are a liability that will result in more deaths than not having a gun.

 

* and, from what I've read that includes the majority of police officers in the US.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

I'd rather nobody had been carrying. Including the attackers.

Not an answer. They were carrying. So had you been there in that situation would you have preferred an opportunity to defend yourself or not?
Of course it's a fucking answer. If guns were illegal they wouldn't have been able to just pop home and grab theirs before going back and killing people.

As for this dumbshit idea that having a gun makes you safer - in order to shoot someone you need a clear line of sight to them. Which means they also have a clear line of sight to you. You've also got to take your gun out of its holster/pocket, whereas they've already got theirs in their hands. Note that as soon as they see that you have a gun they're going to make you their number one target, so you'll get maybe one shot. To take down two shooters. Given those odds, nobody outside an action movie is going to do anything but die.

Oh, and they're wearing body armour. So your one shot will have to be a double headshot. On moving targets. While under fire. Good luck with that.

Using a concealed gun to confront the shooters in such a situation is somewhere between "pretend to be a statue" and "drop your trousers and piss on their shoes" in terms of survivability. But hey, please do keep fantasising about being an unstoppable superhuman cross between John McClane and Rambo if it makes you feel happy.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No loaded guns at guns shows isn't. Wonder why they have that rule...

I have given you my opinion that it is to eliminate the risk of mistaking a live weapon for an inert demo one (ie. a specific risk that is not present in non-gun-show environments.) So I think there's a case for that one being consistent with the NRA's general "guns make you safer" position.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:

*On which topic, no the Bataclan would not have been less horrific if the audience had been armed. When the police and army (very quickly) turned up, they succeeded in shooting a grand total of one of the terrorists. That was the best that highly trained police and soldiers could do. To think that Joe Public would have done any better is fantasy.

It would have been much worse. The fantasy is that the armed spectator will coolly draw their weapon and shoot the perpetrator(s) and only the perpetrator(s). The reality is that innocent people will be shot instead of/as well as.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Brenda Clough
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And a deeper truth is that it takes considerable training to be able to shoot accurately in a stressful situation. Police and military people do regular drills and training. Civilians hold their guns and have Rambo fantasies.
What you would actually get is a couple dozen panicked people spraying the room with fire. The carnage would be immense, and the odds of killing anybody who ought to be die are at best fair. (You can buy bulletproof armor on Amazon.) But it is clear that the NRA does not believe this, and it will take some nasty blood-boltered incidents to change minds. I only hope there will be video -- that's what it'll really take, a believe-your-eyes kind of event.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
But it is clear that the NRA does not believe this, and it will take some nasty blood-boltered incidents to change minds. I only hope there will be video -- that's what it'll really take, a believe-your-eyes kind of event.

Personally, I doubt the NRA would change their stance even if there was video of someone shooting up a room in which everyone was armed.

Mostly that's because I don't believe the NRA believes the shit they're saying, or cares about people's safety, at all. They care about arms manufacturers being able to make shitloads of money. That's why their solution to every single problem ever is "buy more guns".

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Gamaliel
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To be fair to the NRA, they have been offering some solutions/concessions on the automatic weapon issue - and stressing the need for proper training and responsibility etc.

Yes, some of them probably are bat-shit crazy but there'll be plenty of moderate hunting lobbyists and what-have-you. They won't all be nutters.

But, in the final analysis, they are a lobby group. The clue is in the title. So they're not exactly going to take too kindly to legislation they feel might queer their pitch. That might be unpalatable to the rest of us who don't take glossy gun catalogues and brochures to bed with us at night, but there we are.

On another part of cyber-space I had this self-same discussion with a group of Americans - two very much in favour of the current status quo on gun control and one very much against.

One of the pro status quo interlocutors saw the right to self-defence as a 'natural' rather than a 'legal' right and believed that citizens should be able to arm themselves to whatever extent they liked - after all, some of the Founding Fathers personally owned cannon ( [Ultra confused] ) ...

In response, I posed the question about what the 'right' to bear arms would look like in a situation where there was inter-communal violence or tensions ... say Northern Ireland during the Troubles for the sake of an example.

Some 3,000 people died and many, many more were injured during 30 years of sectarian and political violence - shootings, bombings, engagements between paramilitaries and the security forces etc etc etc.

Had the general populace been armed when violence broke out in 1969 would we have seen 3,000 deaths in three months, three years ... ?

The answer was that limited gun control would have been understandable in a situation like that, but as soon as the situation returned to 'normal' (whatever 'normal' is ...) then the controls should be lifted and people be free to exercise their 'natural rights' ...

He also opined that had the general population been armed this would have acted as a deterrent to sectarian, ethnic or ideological violence as each side would know that the other was armed ...

Yeah, right.

I haven't noticed that an armed citizenry has deterred break-ins, burglaries and street crime in the US. All it seems to have done is to ensure that criminals set out with weaponry in order to overcome any resistance they receive.

In effect, it's led to an internal arms race.

I've put these points to him but he's yet to respond.

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Brenda Clough
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The other, orthogonal argument to be made is that, whatever Congress and their masters the NRA says, you cannot be a Christian and shill for mass gun ownership. In a couple weeks we're going to hail Jesus as the heav'n born Prince of Peace. That does not reconcile with assault rifles under the tree.

I have made this argument, with zero effect upon fundie gun nuts. It is clearly possible to believe two impossible things at the same time.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The other, orthogonal argument to be made is that, whatever Congress and their masters the NRA says, you cannot be a Christian and shill for mass gun ownership. In a couple weeks we're going to hail Jesus as the heav'n born Prince of Peace. That does not reconcile with assault rifles under the tree.

It would seem to me as though the arguments in favour of "Just War Theory" can also be used in favour of personal defence weapons, with the same kinds of caveats attached to their use.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

Mostly that's because I don't believe the NRA believes the shit they're saying, or cares about people's safety, at all. They care about arms manufacturers being able to make shitloads of money. That's why their solution to every single problem ever is "buy more guns".

I am perfectly willing to believe the NRA leadership are both irrational and greedy.
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It would seem to me as though the arguments in favour of "Just War Theory" can also be used in favour of personal defence weapons, with the same kinds of caveats attached to their use.

"Just" war. As likely found in reality as Scotland's national animal.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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RooK

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# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It would seem to me as though the arguments in favour of "Just War Theory" can also be used in favour of personal defence weapons, with the same kinds of caveats attached to their use.

If you're Shaolin, perhaps. But you have to twist or ignore the central tenets of Christianity's turn-the-other-cheek-ness and forgiveness if want to claim to belong to that religion.

Not even going to bother discussing how it's more often about protecting material goods. More of you should have been fed to lions, back when we had the chance of getting rid of you all.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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After the Colorado theater shooting, a few years ago, gun sales in CO went up. I found that disturbing, for the same reasons have put forth on this page of the thread. In a dark theater, you're not going to know who's who. And, when the cops arrive, they'll only know that *someone* has a gun...

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
If you're Shaolin, perhaps. But you have to twist or ignore the central tenets of Christianity's turn-the-other-cheek-ness and forgiveness if want to claim to belong to that religion.

Go on, then. Explain to me how it's possible for someone to believe "just war theory" and not be able to make the parallel arguments in favour of personal defense in similar circumstances?

(Forgiveness and turn-the-other-cheek-ness apply just as much to ensembles of people as they do to individual people.)

(Saying "just war theory is a load of crap" is fine and consistent, but there's a significant school of Christian thought that supports it. Unless they're not true Christians, of course...)

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Martin60
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Of course they are. Misled ones. Unled ones.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
(Forgiveness and turn-the-other-cheek-ness apply just as much to ensembles of people as they do to individual people.)

Do they? How do you know? What is this based on?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
More of you should have been fed to lions, back when we had the chance of getting rid of you all.

You can still design plain red paper cups. I believe that's killing millions of Christians, to judge by the hullabaloo it's causing.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
]Go on, then. Explain to me how it's possible for someone to believe "just war theory" and not be able to make the parallel arguments in favour of personal defense in similar circumstances?

Is it possible for someone who believes they are fucking for chastity to also believe they could fuck for celibacy?

I don't know whether to kill myself or go bowling with Marilyn.

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saysay

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I haven't noticed that an armed citizenry has deterred break-ins, burglaries and street crime in the US. All it seems to have done is to ensure that criminals set out with weaponry in order to overcome any resistance they receive.

Well, in spite of what most Americans think, crime is way down. Whether that's because there's a deterrent effect in thinking someone might have a gun or because of other factors is a question.

Just tonight, near me, two people attempted to rob a liquor store with a gun. Person behind the counter killed one of them; the other escaped.

This is a good piece on why Americans have trouble talking to each other about guns, much less enacting reasonable legislation.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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Apparently a lot of people are up in arms over the idea that people on the no-fly list might be prevented from buying guns. They're using the word "rights" a lot.

I have a problem with the no-fly list. It has a complete lack of anything resembling due process - we're supposed to rely on the government getting it perfectly right, in secret.

Yeah, right.

But here's the thing. I agree that owning guns is a right - it's explicitly listed right there in the second amendment - but riding on a plane is a right, too. No, that one's not explicitly listed, but most rights aren't. If the colonial authorities had instituted a no-stagecoach list, you can bet your behind that the right to travel would have made the explicit list.

I don't have a problem with the idea that people who aren't allowed to fly shouldn't be allowed guns - that seems sensible enough. I have a big problem with the current implementation of the no-fly list.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I agree that owning guns is a right - it's explicitly listed right there in the second amendment

That's a matter of some dispute. There is a militia clause, Virginia.

[ 08. December 2015, 02:43: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That's a matter of some dispute. There is a militia clause, Virginia.

Yes, indeed. The current state of the law (DC vs Heller, MacDonald vs Chicago) is that the second amendment is to be read as an individual right, and that while the militia clause announces a purpose for the right to bear arms, it does not limit its scope. This can be altered by a future supreme court or by constitutional amendment, but for now, it's the law.

I am continually bemused, however, by the fact that many of the people who shout loudest about the second amendment appear completely unable to locate any other rights, and are happy to trample all over them in an orgy of authoritarianism.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I haven't noticed that an armed citizenry has deterred break-ins, burglaries and street crime in the US. All it seems to have done is to ensure that criminals set out with weaponry in order to overcome any resistance they receive.

Well, in spite of what most Americans think, crime is way down. Whether that's because there's a deterrent effect in thinking someone might have a gun or because of other factors is a question.

Just tonight, near me, two people attempted to rob a liquor store with a gun.

Case in point. Very few robberies in the UK involve firearms. Very, very few. Mostly organised blags of banks and so on. And of course, in that case it could have gone the other way had the robber shot accurately first.

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Twilight

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# 2832

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"Blags of banks," Karl?

I'm getting sort of fed up with the constitution. I know our sainted forefathers wrote it, or copied it from the British, or whatever, in good faith, but we live in a world they could never have imagined.

When they were talking about the right to bear arms, the arms were single shot muskets not automatic weapons. Why is it so hard to ratify the constitution? Why do people in this "Christian," country place more reverence on it than they do the words of Jesus?

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
"Blags of banks," Karl?

In places where criminals habitually say "it's a fair cop, guv. You've got me bang to rights," a blagging is a violent robbery. Think coshes, guns, and men with tights on thier heads.
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Doc Tor
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Very naughty. Now shut it, you slags. I've got my mincers peeled.

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Gamaliel
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Sure, Saysay, overall, violent crime is decreasing on both sides of the Atlantic.

On the Constututional issues ... I'm beginning to think that there's something almost 'sola scriptura' about the US Constitution given that everyone's poring over the text of the 2nd Amendment to interpret what it might mean.

Conversely, I suspect the UK's slippery and arcane Constitution is rather more like RC or Orthodox Tradition insofar as it relies less on the interpretation of proof-texts as the aggregate total of an ethos which has other elements alongside textual ones ...

Not saying one's better than t'other, simply that there seem to be parallels.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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RooK

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# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Explain to me how it's possible for someone to believe "just war theory" and not be able to make the parallel arguments in favour of personal defense in similar circumstances?

While claiming to be Christian? A super-sized serving of stupidity with denial sauce. Obviously.

Eat up.

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RooK

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Fun factoid:
Thing most correlated with dropping crime rate? Reducing exposure to lead.

I'd make a pun about bullets in there, but really you are probably struggling enough with thoughts of having to thank the EPA.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Re US Constitution and sola scriptura:

Absolutely, to various degrees. For some people, it's just about on the same level as Christian scripture, because of all the manifest destiny and American exceptionalism crap. God wanted us pasty-faced N. Europeans* here, guided the founders, etc.

I'm way towards the other end of the Constitution as scripture spectrum. But I've got a lot of automatic respect for the Constitution, too. And I do think that the guys did a pretty good job, except for universal equality: slaves, women, and people who didn't own property weren't equal. (John Adams should've listened to Abigail's advice to "remember the ladies".)

America keeps tripping over its mythology, and we've never found a good, healthy way to address that. If we could at least start a new chapter of it ("that was then, this is now, we value it, but we need to adapt it" or "we have a new mission, now"), we might make some progress.

*I've never heard it put quite that way, but that's pretty much what the Pilgrims were.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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saysay

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm getting sort of fed up with the constitution. I know our sainted forefathers wrote it, or copied it from the British, or whatever, in good faith, but we live in a world they could never have imagined.

And yet the fear that the elites have no respect for either the Constitution (or any rule of law) or the majority of the people in the country is part of what's driving the massive gun sales.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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IIRC, the number of hoseholds with guns is down, whilst the number of guns being sold is up.
All that says is the paranoid are ever more so.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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saysay

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Yeah, because it's just paranoia to believe that people with absolute power would ever abuse that because they know they can get away with it.

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Why do I have the feeling that most of the gun buying isn't by those most likely to be actually abused by authority for no reason?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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saysay

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I don't know. Why do you have that feeling? Maybe because you've bought a bunch of media lies about people you feel justified in looking down on but know nothing about? Or...?

Are we talking legal or illegal purchases?

I don't even know who isn't actually likely to be abused by authority for no reason.

(There are certainly systemic issues that lead to certain populations having more interactions with the police, which is likely to lead to a higher percentage of those populations encountering psychopathic bullies, but AFAIK there's no magical trait that allows anyone to escape any possibility of such an interaction). I mean, seriously, they've been flat-out executing (white, male) veterans and Christian ministers not accused of crimes for a good long while now.

But, tell me: Trump gets elected and starts implementing some of his more batshit-crazy ideas, performing massive deportations and bringing back internment camps.

What is anyone on the left going to do about it?

--------------------
"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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Egeria
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Oh really? What media lies, exactly? What group or groups of people are we supposed to be looking down on?

And what "elites" are comin' to git ordinary Americans (if it's "ordinary" to be a paranoid whacko gun nut who hates the very idea of "gummint")? Bankers? Tennis champs? the Junior League? The American Historical Association?

Saysay rambles on and on with these nonsensical fantasies about how the police and middle class white women are out to oppress her. Just more sewage in the pipeline. The problem with specifying these elites is that once she does, her silliness will exposed again.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
While claiming to be Christian? A super-sized serving of stupidity with denial sauce. Obviously.

That's not as cute as no prophet's celibacy line, but just as pointless.
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Golden Key
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Well, I think there's truth to what saysay says. Not the only truth, but a good chunk of it--both about experiences and mindsets. Catch the news, any given day, to see some of what she means.

Other parcels of truth, ISTM:

--Many of the elite (E) feel as scared of the non-elite (NE) as the NE feel of them.

--Lots of the E, even the well-meaning, have no clue about the NE. When Barbara Ehrenreich wrote "Nickel and Dimed", about low-wage workers (AKA the working poor), she was shocked to find out how bad things are for them--and her politics are progressive! Most of what she talked about was pretty basic to my understanding of the working poor, but she was really clueless. (FYI: I know *I'm* clueless about many, many things.)

--Gated communities.

--What saysay describes, what the news describes, are the sorts of things that happen in the leadup to a revolution--a class war, even if it doesn't lead to full-on civil war.

As to what the Left would do: they'd probably make as many mistakes as the Right would, but possibly different ones. And they'd try to stop the camps. As would a good many of the Right, I think.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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RooK

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
That's not as cute as no prophet's celibacy line, but just as pointless.

How about this then:
The only way you can argue that Christianity¹ has any merit of any kind is if it promotes being brave enough to be a pacifist. "Just war" is a mealy-mouthed term for "jihad". Extrapolate that to any scale you like, it doesn't change how fucking stupid it is to pretend that violence should be a part of a religion of peace.

I personally do believe that there are worse things than dying. Being an embodiment for a philosophy that drives ongoing human suffering² is probably one of those things.

¹ Or Islam, or any organized religion that isn't utterly reprehensible².

² Helllooooo Scientology!

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RooK

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quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
But, tell me: Trump gets elected and starts implementing some of his more batshit-crazy ideas, performing massive deportations and bringing back internment camps.

What is anyone on the left going to do about it?

How about using public discourse, legal means, and representative government to try to forestall such idiocy?

Civilized society. It's so kooky like that.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
"Just war" is a mealy-mouthed term for "jihad". Extrapolate that to any scale you like, it doesn't change how fucking stupid it is to pretend that violence should be a part of a religion of peace.

Which is fine, and rather missing my point, which is that, as I see it, the arguments for "just war" can also me made to apply to individual people. Not liking either is consistent. Thinking it's reasonable to believe one but not the other? I don't see the argument.
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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
But, tell me: Trump gets elected and starts implementing some of his more batshit-crazy ideas, performing massive deportations and bringing back internment camps.

What is anyone on the left going to do about it?

How about using public discourse, legal means, and representative government to try to forestall such idiocy?

Civilized society. It's so kooky like that.

RooK you sound actually hopeful in this response. Pistol whip me awake! Live by the gun, die by the gun seems more apt. Maybe we can have a nice marching song about Poor Dead Rump.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
But, tell me: Trump gets elected and starts implementing some of his more batshit-crazy ideas, performing massive deportations and bringing back internment camps.

What is anyone on the left going to do about it?

How about using public discourse, legal means, and representative government to try to forestall such idiocy?

Civilized society. It's so kooky like that.

Presumably he could be impeached if he breached the constitution on a large scale ?

[ 09. December 2015, 12:35: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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He could be impeached if he broke it on a small scale. Seriously, he's not going to be able to get away with deporting all Muslims or some such crap.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Brenda Clough
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It would be far more efficient to not elect Trump in the first place. The man is clearly unfit to hold office.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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