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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
Piglet
Islander
# 11803

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
... The woman in the front car got out and marched, unarmed, toward the one still in her car. The one in the car took out her gun and killed the woman coming toward her. She got off because she, "felt threatened." That's been about 15 years ago and I'm still mad about it.

I don't blame you: no matter how threatened she felt, if she was still in her car, surely all she had to do was drive away?

Now I think about it, someone who carries a gun in their car (and is as ready to use it as she obviously was) has bugger-all to feel threatened about.

Rather the reverse. [Mad]

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
Now I think about it, someone who carries a gun in their car (and is as ready to use it as she obviously was) has bugger-all to feel threatened about.

Except someone else with a gun in their car, and being ready to use it. But, that just leads to an arms race - be better armed than the other person, and shoot first just in case. Might as well just sign up to drive in a Death Race and be done with it.

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rolyn
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# 16840

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Michigan and now Kansas. What utterance can anyone make other than to reaffirm the OP title.

Like a grim roll-call.

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Michigan and now Kansas. What utterance can anyone make other than to reaffirm the OP title.

Like a grim roll-call.

What, no love for Colorado?

I guess green party-occupy assholes killing cops don't make the grade...

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Well, it doesn't pass the widely used "four or more dead" mark for mass shootings.

Which doesn't make the killing of a deputy, and wounding two others, any less wrong, of course. Nor does it make easy access to guns any less stupid. Left wing idiots, right wing idiots, normal everyday Americans ... they can all end up shooting someone if they have a gun readily at hand and a bad day.

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Piglet
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# 11803

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
... they can all end up shooting someone if they have a gun readily at hand and a bad day.

And if these idiots get their way, so can their children, no matter how young they are.

There are actual, real people who would stop their kids from playing with matches, but let them play with guns?

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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Maybe one of them will finally shoot this horse...

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:

There are actual, real people who would stop their kids from playing with matches, but let them play with guns?

I'm pretty sure that anyone that would allow their child to shoot a handgun would also allow their child to use a match.

I am certain that I have children to whom I happily hand a box of matches. This is different from letting them play with matches.

I'd let them fire a little .22 rifle under appropriate supervision (shooting prone, on a controlled range ...) if they wanted to. I wouldn't hand them a handgun at all. It's quite possible that when they're older and stronger, they'd reach a point when I'd consider letting them fire handguns on a range, and they might reach that point before they're 14.

None of this is what is commonly understood by the phrase "playing with guns" though.

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JonahMan
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# 12126

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At least kids in the USA are protected from the evil that is Kinder Eggs.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Maybe one of them will finally shoot this horse...

Oh, if only the horses had guns.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Michigan and now Kansas. What utterance can anyone make other than to reaffirm the OP title.

Like a grim roll-call.

What, no love for Colorado?

I guess green party-occupy assholes killing cops don't make the grade...

Perhaps if you fucking morons would stop shooting people for at least a moment, we could catch up on them all.

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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Michigan and now Kansas. What utterance can anyone make other than to reaffirm the OP title.

Like a grim roll-call.

What, no love for Colorado?

I guess green party-occupy assholes killing cops don't make the grade...

Perhaps if you fucking morons would stop shooting people for at least a moment, we could catch up on them all.
Nah. Fuck 'em. They seem to have a quota to kill each year.

Perhaps when it gets into the tens of thousands dead in a single shooting they'll do something.

But not yet so fuck 'em.

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Kelly Alves

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# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
Now I think about it, someone who carries a gun in their car (and is as ready to use it as she obviously was) has bugger-all to feel threatened about.

Except someone else with a gun in their car, and being ready to use it. But, that just leads to an arms race - be better armed than the other person, and shoot first just in case. Might as well just sign up to drive in a Death Race and be done with it.
Arms race is a perfect way to put it.

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alienfromzog

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# 5327

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Right time for another ignorant Brit post.

Sunday is the 20th anniversary of the Dumblane massacre. 16 people died, one teacher and the rest were 5 and 6 year old.

To mark this anniversary the BBC ran a very moving documentary where victims relatives and survivors tell their story.

There's the single father who had lost his wife to breast cancer who lost his only daughter. There's the woman, who on that very day was going to a memorial service for her husband who had died leaving her with 2 children. And on and on.

The beauty and pain in all their stories is totally evident. This documentary definitely comes with a health warning.

But here's the thing: This is the only school mass-shooting the UK has ever had.

Britain already had relatively tight controls on gun-ownership but they were tightened further.

How many devastating stories does it take?

AFZ

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Doc Tor
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Many, many more.

Take this woman, for example (apologies for the Mail link).

She posted on FB, "My right to protect my child with my gun trumps your fear of my gun". Her child (4 yo) shot her in the back with her handgun.

Now, where she goes from here is anyone's guess, but at least she'll have some gun-free time in hospital to think about her approach to firearms.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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When the Constitution, divinely dictated and immutable, declares a right to bear arms then it is clearly the God-given duty of each and every American to own an arsenal that would be the envy of many third world dictators. No number of tragic stories will be enough to change that.

Nor, it seems, will any amount of pointing out that bit about a "well ordered militia" and the fact that the vast majority of gun-owning Americans aren't members of even a disordered militia.

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alienfromzog

Ship's Alien
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Yep.

[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
... Take this woman, for example (apologies for the Mail link)....

What I found truly astonishing is the kid was returned to his home: a home where he's allowed to play with a loaded gun and doesn't have to wear his seatbelt. WTF??? Don't they have child protection laws in Florida? Aren't police - and everyone else, for that matter - required to report incidents of child abuse and neglect? How does such a reckless and negligent parent still have legal custody of any of her children?

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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According to this account the child "was returned to his family" - which is non-specific, and could mean grandparents, although while the gun-nut is in hospital she can't do any more harm (one hopes dad has an extra functional neuron and is busy going through the house removing each and every gun, or at the least unloading them and putting them in a locked chest in the attic).

Also, "Florida Department of Children and Family Services was also notified".

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Kid might be much worse off in foster care. There were news stories, some years back, that the Florida foster care system is so messed up that sometimes a kid isn't checked on for years--and then is found to have disappeared.
[Tear]

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Stercus Tauri
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In Washington State they now have a killer called a Good Samaritan for shooting a robber in a store. Suggestions that it may not have been necessary to kill him, or that he may have been mentally ill, were ridiculed in the paper's comments. The police saw no evidence of anything wrong in the action, and the man is a local hero who has justified the laws allowing the carrying of concealed weapons. [Projectile]

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
In Washington State they now have a killer called a Good Samaritan for shooting a robber in a store. Suggestions that it may not have been necessary to kill him, or that he may have been mentally ill, were ridiculed in the paper's comments. The police saw no evidence of anything wrong in the action, and the man is a local hero who has justified the laws allowing the carrying of concealed weapons. [Projectile]

To be fair, this does seem to be a perfect example of why the pro-gun lobby thinks they are a good thing. From what I've read there's little doubt that, had he not been shot, the hatchet-wielder would have killed the store clerk.

Whether one good-news story is enough to cancel out all the bad-news stories is debatable, but it's disingenuous to deny that it's a good-news story in the first place.

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Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
In Washington State they now have a killer called a Good Samaritan for shooting a robber in a store. Suggestions that it may not have been necessary to kill him, or that he may have been mentally ill, were ridiculed in the paper's comments. The police saw no evidence of anything wrong in the action, and the man is a local hero who has justified the laws allowing the carrying of concealed weapons. [Projectile]

To be fair, this does seem to be a perfect example of why the pro-gun lobby thinks they are a good thing. From what I've read there's little doubt that, had he not been shot, the hatchet-wielder would have killed the store clerk.

Whether one good-news story is enough to cancel out all the bad-news stories is debatable, but it's disingenuous to deny that it's a good-news story in the first place.

That's a good-news story? Couldn't the killer have shot the man in the leg to bring him down if there was no alternative to a violent response? But lives and bullets are cheap in the USA, so what am I worrying my head about? Mentally ill people aren't needed and multiple social and legal problems were avoided by this heroic deed.

Again [Projectile]

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
... Couldn't the killer have shot the man in the leg to bring him down if there was no alternative to a violent response? ...

NO. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. Once more with feeling, NO. Even police officers, who are trained to shoot to the centre of mass, miss their targets about 2/3 of the time and often hit innocent bystanders. Shooting to "miss" or "wound" is a moronic idea that only works in fiction. In real life, it practically guarantees shooting the wrong person.

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Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
... Couldn't the killer have shot the man in the leg to bring him down if there was no alternative to a violent response? ...

NO. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. Once more with feeling, NO. Even police officers, who are trained to shoot to the centre of mass, miss their targets about 2/3 of the time and often hit innocent bystanders. Shooting to "miss" or "wound" is a moronic idea that only works in fiction. In real life, it practically guarantees shooting the wrong person.
Then I'm afraid I shall have to go on record as an idealistic moron who wants to avoid any more "Good Samaritan" killings.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Golden Key
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Stercus Tauri--

I'm not in favor of people carrying guns around with them. This was a horrible situation, for everyone involved, and it's horrible that anyone died. From what the article said, the "Good Samaritan" was quite shaken, afterwards. So it's not something he's taking lightly. [Votive]

This was a convenience store. I don't know about wherever you happen to be, but American convenience stores are habitually very dangerous places for the employees.

So...a thought experiment: You stop off at a convenience store to pick up some snacks. You run into a masked man, who takes a few swings at you with a hatchet, then starts actually cutting the clerk at the register. The clerk is in imminent danger of grave injury or death--and you may be next.

Scenario 1: You are unarmed. What do you do?

Scenario 2: You have a gun. What do you do?


Second thought experiment: *You're* the clerk, being attacked with a hatchet, and there's a customer standing there who might be able to help, in some way, armed or not. What do you want the customer to do?


As Marvin the Martian said, this is a perfect example of why the pro-carry folks think everyone should carry guns.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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Stercus Tauri
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A thought experiment is not real life, so I don't know the answer. When I was once threatened by an armed Homeland Security thug at the US border, I simply froze, but then laughed at him. I hope, if I was in the store scenario, I would try to stop the assailant, and I hope that others would pile in to help, but I don't know. I don't think any of us can say honestly what we would do - only what we hope we would do.

This kept me awake last night, hovering between tears and vomiting. The reality of this barbarism that faces ordinary people every day is overwhelming.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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There have been examples I've seen posted (maybe even on this thread, certainly via my FB feed) over the last year of "Good Samaritans" successfully restraining an armed assailant, unarmed Good Samaritans. They don't get reported by the gun-loving controlled media because they don't fit the "good guy with a gun" paradigm, nor the "if you don't have a gun you're the victim" paradigm.

And, of course, in the time between "Good Samaritan" stories how many innocent people get shot accidentally by "good guys with a gun"? An awful lot more than avoid getting injured by the occasional "bad guy" shot by a "good guy".

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Soror Magna
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A gun is deadly force, and the decision to use deadly force comes at the moment one decides, "Yep, I'm going to take my gun with me." That decision, if one encounters bad luck, bad traffic, a robbery, whatever, will lead to other decisions. One is how to be sure that no one can take the gun away and use it against us. That's the fundamental reason for shooting to kill. I'm sorry, but it's really ucky game theory.

Now, you all know I'm a total pinko when it comes to guns and a lot of other stuff, but like any other tool, there are rules on how to use a gun. There seems to be a never-ending supply of idiots who make the news because they failed to follow those rules. Like letting a 4-year-old play with a .45 behind one's back ... [Eek!] [brick wall]

Stercus Tauri, I'm totally with you: I don't think I could kill someone robbing a convenience store, but that's primarily because I would never be carrying a gun in a convenience store. On a hike in the bush, maybe. In town, fucking never. But as I said above, the decision to use deadly force is made when one decides to carry a gun, and once someone draws their gun, they are committed to a certain set of actions. The easiest way to avoid that -- plus the overwhelming probability of a stupid tragedy -- and I wish more Americans would do the math -- is to not have a gun at all.

The sad truth is that statistically, we know that for every Mr."I foiled a robbery", there were a couple of murders, several suicides and a whole bunch of accidents that resulted in approximately 20 times as many deaths.

But once armed dude drew, he had to do what he had to do, and the clerk is probably glad he did. Sucks, and it sucks that it'll be in next month's NRA magazine, and the gun freaks will all be, like, "See?". The USA is well and truly fucked up. Thanks, SCOTUS and Heller vs. DC. [Mad]

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
A gun is deadly force, and the decision to use deadly force comes at the moment one decides, "Yep, I'm going to take my gun with me."

Not quite, I think. For sure, once you decide to carry a gun, you have (should have) made the decision that you are in principle prepared to use deadly force in order to protect yourself or others.

But you don't make the decision that this situation warrants the use of deadly force until you take the gun in your hand. In many situations, you retain the ability to walk away instead.

I also agree that the decision to carry a gun closes down some of your other options. If you're getting robbed in the street, you have the option to act passive and compliant, and hope to not get hurt. By carrying a gun, you have pretty much made the decision not to do that.

Basically, I think I'm agreeing with you, whilst niggling over some of your wording.

I'm a little curious if the people who are so stupid about gun safety (letting small children have control of them etc.) are equally stupid about power saws, exposed electrical wires, and other things that children shouldn't have control of, or whether it's just guns.

There certainly seems to be a similar species of idiot who owns large dogs.

[ 16. March 2016, 04:04: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
A thought experiment is not real life, so I don't know the answer.

It was real life for the people in that store.

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Doc Tor
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# 9748

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It was real life for the toddler who shot his mum in the back, too.

On balance, then: do the advantages of an easily-armed citizenry outweigh the disadvantages? I don't think I have to expend too much brainpower calculating that.

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Forward the New Republic

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Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
A thought experiment is not real life, so I don't know the answer.

It was real life for the people in that store.
That is the point I hoped I was making. A thought experiment where you have the safety and time to weigh options has no bearing on this whatsoever. I can't tell you what I would have done; only what I hope I would have been able to do. In many cultures including my own, shooting to kill is neither a legal nor a moral option - a concept almost impossible to explain to many Americans.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It was real life for the toddler who shot his mum in the back, too.

On balance, then: do the advantages of an easily-armed citizenry outweigh the disadvantages? I don't think I have to expend too much brainpower calculating that.

As I said, it's a debatable point. I happen to fall on the side that says the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, but that doesn't mean I deny that the advantages exist at all.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
In many cultures including my own, shooting to kill is neither a legal nor a moral option - a concept almost impossible to explain to many Americans.

It's not a legal option where I am (UK) either. But I can easily imagine reasonably analogous situations - say I'm stopping off at the shop on my way to a cricket match and have my bat in my hand - am I justified in hitting the hatchet-wielding maniac with the bat to stop him killing someone else, even if my doing so kills him?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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ST--

The purpose of my thought experiments was to get you to think about that real life situation. Whatever you think of the choices the customer made, he was right there, in a random situation, with the clerk's life and his own hanging in the balance.

He could've reacted in a variety of very understandable ways: frozen, like a deer in headlights; run around the inside of the store, jibbering; run out, gotten in his car, and escaped; called 911 for help, either in or outside of the store; tried to divert the attacker's attention, hoping the clerk could escape; throw things at the clerk; grabbed a bottle of wine, and hit the attacker over the head; spray the attacker with a fire extinguisher; set off a fire alarm; or used a weapon, which he happened to have.

He used his gun to stop a murder, possibly two. You implied he shot to kill. Do we know that? As I said earlier, I'm not pro carry, and it's horrible that *any* of it happened; but I can't condemn him.

You mentioned American laws and morals. Shooting someone usually isn't legal here, except for some defense situations--which this was. Morally, shooting someone usually isn't ok here, either. But this was defense of self and other.

I suspect a majority of Americans would at least sympathize with the customer's situation, and possibly judge him as not having other options. Some people would go out and buy a gun. And some would work on gun control.

(See the gun control petition link in my current sig. There've been several petitions there. Currently, IIRC, there are just a couple.)

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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If I were ever in the situation where I had to kill someone in self-defence, I wouldn't call this a good news story.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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This isn't hellish (except for the context), but it fits and I don't think it's worth a new thread.

We've been told repeatedly on these boards that it is not possible to shoot to maim when trying to effect an arrest -that it's the surest way of killing innocent bystanders, that it only happens in the movies. I've accepted this wholesale, I know nothing about guns (except for a couple of times I've been clay pigeon shooting - I was complete rubbish). But that's exactly what the Belgian police did when they arrested those two terrorist suspects recently - they shot them in the leg.

So ??? - any comments from more gun-savvy Shipmates?

M.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Probably context.

I've not seen much over here, just what I've managed to read on the BBC. But one set of videos of a man shot in the leg do show a street that is empty of all but armed police. If there were no civilians present, and the police felt secure that they were not about to be shot at, then the risks of shooting to injure rather than kill must be reduced. And, a suspect alive and able to talk may give the police far more information, and more quickly, than a dead suspect. That would be part of the calculation going through the minds of the officers in charge - more information means shutting down the rest of the network quicker, which means reduced chance of a further attack.

If there were civilians present and the police had reason to suspect he could detonate a bomb or open fire with a gun I expect they'd be much less likely to aim at the legs.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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Interesting, because how I see it in my mind's eye (from the pictures) is that it was in a crowded street. I shall have to go back and re-watch the news reports. It's obvious why they would want to keep a suspect alive, quite apart from the fact that it's generally better not to kill people. I was more interested in the physical possibility of it.

And I vaguely remember hearing that for one suspect at least the police didn't know whether or not he was wearing a suicide vest until after he was arrested. Again, I need to go back and re-watch.

M.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I know UK police shot the guy who beheaded Lee Rigby in the leg, he was brandishing a machete - but a bit calmer because a member of the public had being talking to him and trying to calm him down.

I think the issue has always been relative risk, rather the ability to physically do it, especially when they have laser gun sights.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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That's assuming that the cops who shot someone in the leg were aiming at said leg.

(And just because someone does make an amazing shot under favourable circumstances doesn't mean it should be attempted in the majority of situations.)

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:

I think the issue has always been relative risk, rather the ability to physically do it, especially when they have laser gun sights.

If you are carrying a handgun and someone is charging at you, laser sights won't improve your chances of hitting his leg much. If you're a sniper shooting prone from the top of the next building at standing targets, you could accurately place bullets in people's legs all day.

It's more a question of the weapon and the platform rather than the sights.

I have no idea whether typical suicide vests would be detonated by the vest itself being shot...

[ 27. March 2016, 12:53: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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It depends on the explosive, but if it's a modern commercial or military explosive (including TNT, C4, Semtex) then a bullet won't set it off as these are designed to be stable and not go off by being bounced around in the back of a truck or similar. They need a detonator to go off. Now, if the bullet hit the detonator that would be different. Older explosives, like dynamite, are less stable and can be set off by bullets. Homemade explosives even more so.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645

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Just another day in America.

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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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In the headline feed next to it, a report about a guy getting arrested at McDonald's for putting soda in a water cup. Taken together, it gives a pretty good picture for who is in charge here.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
In the headline feed next to it, a report about a guy getting arrested at McDonald's for putting soda in a water cup. Taken together, it gives a pretty good picture for who is in charge here.

Actually he asked for a cup of water, which is free, and then dumped the water out and filled it with soda, which is not free. When the manager asked him to return the soda, he not only refused but also ran the manager over with his car.

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"It used to be that being crazy meant something. But not anymore – nowadays everybody's crazy!" – Charles Manson

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Oh. Well, the car thing...

Serves me right for just reading the headline. On the other hand, what a fucked up headline.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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Headline writers do so much enjoy sleight of hand in order to manipulate a response.

Eg.' Policeman uses stun-gun on person staring in a threatening manner'.
Read on to find that the stare was accompanied by the brandishing of a knife.

This is a fictitious example of emphasis shifting.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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That reminds me of a headline I read years ago that read "Man assaults 17-year-old boy."

If you read the article, the "man" was 18 years old and they were classmates together.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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