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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What is it with this US thing about 'losers'?

American gun violence is due to the culture and the time to talk about it is today and every day. But most of the Americans on this board are as appalled as you are. So, for their sake, chill.
Stephan Fry, expounding in the difference between British and American comedy, hits on a key difference in the cultures generally. So this goes to motivation of particular individuals.
However, Brits are every bit as violent as Yanks. Every bit as prone trying to hurt each other. The difference is guns. And part of the myth of America is tied to the gun and to the independence it represents.
The key to the problem is breaking this link. And, as far as I can see, this is more towards a vocal minority and political power-brokering than any other factor.

Pooooooooooooooooooooooost

[Overused]

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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This is worthy of hell. Thoughts and Prayers - online game. Can you pray and send thoughts to save mass shooting lives?

In poor and ridiculous taste. Stupid graphics, bad music effects and I haven't really any clue how to win. I did enjoy the load up messages "slashing budgets", "honoring Reagan", "worshiping #2 amendment" and the message when I tray to ban assault weapons.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Sell more guns, sell bigger guns, and you'll get more dead people.

This, unfortunately for most here on the ship, is directly contradicted by the facts.

Obama was a boon to gun sales in the US, and the murder rate has been in steady decline both before and during his tenure.

Were you a student in my data analysis class, you'd get an F. As you point out, the murder rate has been in a steady decline for quite some time. (Obama's election, by the way, was a complete irrelevance for the murder rate, or the rate of gun deaths.)

This is because when you plot a time series, you have massive confounding variables. There are large-scale social and environmental changes over time that are the dominant effect in the murder and violent crime rate. You can correlate a steep drop with the elimination of tetraethyl lead in gasoline, for example.

To first order, you can correct for these confounding variables by looking at different states at the same time. Here are a couple of plots which, I think you'll agree, show a clear trend.

This and this.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
#1: Having more guns than you can count on your fingers and toes IS A WARNING SIGN!!!

No, I really don't think it is - unless you think that every gun enthusiast is about to go off and kill people.

Having more X than you can count on your fingers and toes is a sign of someone who is enthusiastic about X. Fast cars, motorbikes, model trains, whatever - people who are enthusiastic about something tend to have a lot of them.

You can certainly say that people who own a lot of guns like shooting guns. These aren't people who have a couple of guns for hunting, or for self-defense: these are people who like going to the range at the weekend and shooting guns. It's what they do for fun.

Most of those people aren't going to shoot anyone, ever. But if one of them does get angry at the world, they have a ready supply of weaponry.

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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Ok. Hi know my rant probably crossed the line in some respects but my point about calling someone a 'loser' is that it's so Trump-speak that it both loses any force as an insult and also (to my mind) plays into a particularly GOP-y way of looking at the world.

Call Paddock a coward. Call him a cunt. Call him an evil, twisted fucked up bastard.

Call him a murderer.

Once you call him a 'loser' you begin to add other connotations.

I wouldn't be surprised, should Trump remain in office for the full term, if the epithet 'loser' loses its current US meaning (and it's very much an Americanism) and acquires a reverse connotation.

Anyone referred to as a loser by Trump could automatically require 'winner' status in a reverse psychology kind of way. If Trump calls you a 'loser' then, the logic would run, that's either something to be proud of or you must have some redeeming features the President lacks.

I hasten to add that the terms I used above are indicative only. I would hesitate to use the 'c' word in real life, for instance. I've only cited 'cunt' here as an example of an offensive epithet.

It's probably a Pond difference but whilst 'loser' is a popular US insult, I think it lacks force and doesn't carry the level of opprobrium it should in an instance like this.

Total shit-arse bastard, would be closer.

It also, I'm afraid carries connotations for me of a particular form of somewhat conservative down-home,Mom and apple-pie WASP-ish sentiment that it can be all too easy to satirise.

But hey ...

That's not a big deal in the overall scheme of things.

The issue is what the hell is going to be done about it?

Nothing I suspect.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
No. The Second Amendment exists because the brand-new country was broke following the Revolution and couldn't afford a standing army.

So, why wasn't it enacted in 1776 when the US was a brand new country? Or, included in the Constitution in 1789? Why wait until 1791 before deciding this no-longer-brand-new country needs such an amendment?

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
No, I really don't think it is - unless you think that every gun enthusiast is about to go off and kill people.

Surely the problem is more that if a gun enthusiast does go off on one (whatever that means in individual circumstances), he's almost certainly going to kill people, likely a lot of people.

It isn't that gun enthusiasts are more dangerous as a group than everyone else - it is more that they've got weapons, so as/when they do experience meltdowns, they tend to kill people.

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Sell more guns, sell bigger guns, and you'll get more dead people.

This, unfortunately for most here on the ship, is directly contradicted by the facts.

Nice to see you're still refusing to answer direct, and what should be simple, questions. Though, since all you can manage are great piles of shit like this, it's probably a good think that you don't open up that font of wisdom and inform us. It's quite clear where you speak from.

You might want to do some reading, something with words rather than just cartoons if you can manage that. Try this
quote:
We observed a robust correlation between higher levels of gun ownership and higher firearm homicide rates.


[ 04. October 2017, 07:32: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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Hmmm ... while I agree with you 100%, one has to remember that, in statistics, correlation does not necessarily equate to causation.

So, while a higher level of gun ownership seems to lead inexorably to a higher gun-related death rate, one could say that, for some reason such as the prevalence of a "frontier" rather than a "metropolitan" mentality, more people want to kill each in other in some states than in others and so they buy more guns.

I don't buy that theory for a moment. Nor is it a good (or any) defence against tighter gun control. And, in any case, the more guns that there are around, the more likelihood that they'll be used. But I'm just sayin'.

[ 04. October 2017, 08:00: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Boogie

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# 13538

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Not just killings - accidents too.

In the US guns kill nearly 1,300 children a year.

From 2012 to 2014, on average, 1,297 children died annually from a gun-related injury in the US, according to the study, published in the journal Pediatrics.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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That, to me, ought to be the absolute clincher on gun control. I can never understand why it isn't. See this article.

[ 04. October 2017, 08:07: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Martin60
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# 368

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That's the price of freedom and protection. How many died from America's enemies? See? NONE! It works.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:


I don't buy that theory for a moment. Nor is it a good (or any) defence against tighter gun control. And, in any case, the more guns that there are around, the more likelihood that they'll be used. But I'm just sayin'.

I suppose the counter-argument is that people need guns because people are more likely to kill each other - so because the days are dangerous, people need to be able to defend themselves with deadly force.

But it is obvious to most people outside of the NRA that more guns = more deaths.

I suppose it must be a glass half-empty vs glass half-full thing; if you want the protection against bad people you have to allow the conditions whereby good and bad people have access to guns. If you don't want guns then you (individually, corporately) are going to feel less safe.

It seems like an oxymoron to those of us who don't live in countries where this is a thing - but then I suppose we all have our cultural blind-spots.

Of course it doesn't help that there is a powerful gun-lobby, but again it must be tricky to see objectively whether the culture exists because of the gun-lobby or vice-versa.

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
That's the price of freedom and protection. How many died from America's enemies? See? NONE! It works.

That's because America's enemies have realised that it's easier, and far more effective, to just sit back and let Americans kill themselves.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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The NRA/ gun lobby is absolutely right about one thing: it is people who kill people with firearms, not the firearms on their own. They are absolutely wrong about the issue of gun ownership and either personal or public safety.

But then what can you expect from a bunch of people who are so ill-educated and obtuse that they cannot read the 2nd Amendment and understand that the "right to bear arms" refers to being permitted to be armed in defence of one's country, not in defence of one's own property, etc.

A pre-requisite before gun control can be pushed through is therefore tuition in English usage.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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This. I've read that the Amendment was originally proposed by James Madison as a way of providing more power to state militias, as a compromise to the anti-Federalists who wanted states to have more power and the means of fighting back against a tyrannical central government.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It must be tricky to see objectively whether the culture exists because of the gun-lobby or vice-versa.

I suspect that the "frontiersman" or "wild West" gun-heavy mythology may still exert a powerful pull on people - although I don't know.
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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It seems like an oxymoron to those of us who don't live in countries where this is a thing - but then I suppose we all have our cultural blind-spots.

It's been said before that a key difference between Brits and Americans on this issue is that Americans tend to feel safer knowing that they have a gun, whereas Brits tend to feel safer knowing that other people don't have one.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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Let's not sound smug: British young people living on inner-city estates would certainly (and misguidedly) say they feel much safer carrying a knife "to defend themselves" because they believe everyone else has one. We all know the tragic outcome.

[ 04. October 2017, 11:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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And again, all the statistics show that if you carry a knife, you're much more likely to be a victim of knife crime, commonly by someone using your own knife against you.

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Forward the New Republic

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
That, to me, ought to be the absolute clincher on gun control. I can never understand why it isn't. See this article.

It's easy to think that all these accidents - people leaving unsecured guns around which their children pick up, people shooting themselves and/or their families whilst cleaning their guns, "thinking they were empty" or something happen because of stupidity, and so "wouldn't happen to me".

Similarly, nobody thinks that they are going to reverse over their child in a driveway, leave their child in a hot car because they forget to drop them off, and so on.

It's the same thought process. Other people are stupid, but my guns are safe.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Surely the problem is more that if a gun enthusiast does go off on one (whatever that means in individual circumstances), he's almost certainly going to kill people, likely a lot of people.

It isn't that gun enthusiasts are more dangerous as a group than everyone else - it is more that they've got weapons, so as/when they do experience meltdowns, they tend to kill people.

Yes, that was exactly my point.
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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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I don't have a gun and feel much safer without one because the statistics show that gun owners are more likely to be hurt by a gun than non-gun owners. I don't have to worry about kids coming over and finding it, or burglars ripping it out of my hand and shooting me, or family members having a bad spell and killing themselves, or my husband getting fed-up with me, or me getting fed up with me. Really, how do people get comfortable with that thing in the closet?

I think one of the characteristics of many gun owners is a tendency toward cowardice and fear. I hear a bump in the night and figure it's my haunted refrigerator, gun owners think it's a bad guy breaking in. That's how teens slipping home from a night out get killed.

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
That's the price of freedom and protection. How many died from America's enemies? See? NONE! It works.

That's because America's enemies have realised that it's easier, and far more effective, to just sit back and let Americans kill themselves.
So I got the words right?

--------------------
Love wins

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Gamaliel
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# 812

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
No. The Second Amendment exists because the brand-new country was broke following the Revolution and couldn't afford a standing army.

So, why wasn't it enacted in 1776 when the US was a brand new country? Or, included in the Constitution in 1789? Why wait until 1791 before deciding this no-longer-brand-new country needs such an amendment?
Well, for a kick-off, the USA wasn't a 'brand new country' in 1776. It was still under British rule. The American Revolution / War of Independence (choose nomenclature of choice) started in 1776 but the British didn't throw in the towel until 1783.

I think you're confusing the Declaration of Independence (1776) with the Constitution (drafted and signed in 1787). So amendments made on into the early 1790's don't betoken anything sinister.

It must take years to draft, redraft, consider and amend a constitution for a new nation.

The 13 States didn't have a great deal in common other than a desire for independence. Slavery was an issue right from the outset, there were voices for and against back then.

So it's hardly surprising that it took them a good while to thrash it all out. Although signed in September 1787 the effective ratification of the US Constitution is sometimes reckoned to be 1789. Which makes an amendment in 1791 all the more understandable.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Let's not sound smug: British young people living on inner-city estates would certainly (and misguidedly) say they feel much safer carrying a knife "to defend themselves" because they believe everyone else has one. We all know the tragic outcome.

Because knifing peiple with an arsenal of knives from the 32nd floor is lethal.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Which makes an amendment in 1791 all the more understandable.

Especially as it was around that time they decided that black people couldn't serve in a militia.

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Forward the New Republic

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
This. I've read that the Amendment was originally proposed by James Madison as a way of providing more power to state militias, as a compromise to the anti-Federalists who wanted states to have more power and the means of fighting back against a tyrannical central government.

And if anyone bothers to read the research I linked to, they would know that a key concern of the Southern states was that their militia would never be called to serve in another state, as that would leave the slavers defenseless. That is the real reason for state control of the militias. Besides, we all know what happens when USAians fight back against a tyrannical central government - they lose the Civil War. That's the insurrectionist fallacy.

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
...But then what can you expect from a bunch of people who are so ill-educated and obtuse that they cannot read the 2nd Amendment and understand that the "right to bear arms" refers to being permitted to be armed in defence of one's country, not in defence of one's own property, etc. ....

And if anyone bothers to read the research I linked to, they would know that the NRA and gun manufacturers engaged in a deliberate campaign to create the legal scholarship and precedents that led to the Heller decision. And the original "right to bear arms" didn't have anything to do hunting either - as one writer pointed out, "one does not 'bear arms' against a rabbit."

But don't take my word for it. Read the research. Ditch the mythology.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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There is also the point that in the 1700s a gun was a relatively simple and primitive weapon. I will not take up space, by describing how you loaded and fired it, but you had to do way more than just point and pull. The Founding Fathers had never imagined automatic weapons that could spray 6 bullets a second.
It is not unreasonable to say that the laws should be updated to accommodate modern firearms. Just like traffic laws now accommodate more than horse and buggy.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The NRA/ gun lobby is absolutely right about one thing: it is people who kill people with firearms, not the firearms on their own.

quote:
Guns don’t kill people. People who say “Guns don’t kill people” kill people. With guns.
Rob Delaney

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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RooK

1 of 6
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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You abusing your adminly privileges?

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Forward the New Republic

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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has someone opened a trapdoor and we've fallen into /pol/?

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arse

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
[some cool Admin-powers flexing]

Guns are people too!

[ 04. October 2017, 21:50: Message edited by: RooK ]

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Welp. Guessing you ain't no admin.

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Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8723 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Wow.

RooK - [Overused]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8790 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:

#2: Anybody with more guns than they can count on their fingers and toes IS CAPABLE OF KILLING MANY PEOPLE.

Anyone is capable of killing many people, dipshit.

Got a car?

No. You?

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Love wins

Posts: 16648 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Welp. Guessing you ain't no admin.

Big shock, right?

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Although signed in September 1787 the effective ratification of the US Constitution is sometimes reckoned to be 1789. Which makes an amendment in 1791 all the more understandable.

...and the promise of the Bill of Rights was part of the horse trading that got the states to ratify the constitution. You can't really consider it as a separate thing.
Posts: 4768 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Always these debates about what the 2nd Amendment really means. Clearly it's unclear. We need to scrap it and write a new one.

Something like "Armies and police can have guns and a few other, specified people whose jobs require guns." And eagles. As a sop to the NRA eagles can have guns.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Bears, surely. They have a right to arm bears.

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Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8723 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Bears, surely. They have a right to arm bears.

Laughed. Out. Loud.
Posts: 15101 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

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👍

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
No. ...

Yes.
In the above post, Soror Magna links to a page written by Prof. Carl T. Bogus in support of their position. I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying it happened.

[ 04. October 2017, 23:25: Message edited by: simontoad ]

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Bears, surely. They have a right to arm bears.

Can we just switch to that alternative universe?

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Love wins

Posts: 16648 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Or the right to wear short-sleeved shirts?

Bare arms....

I'll get me coat...

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 8790 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Hmmm, that crook could come in useful...

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

Posts: 1038 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Bears, surely. They have a right to arm bears.

Can we just switch to that alternative universe?
H'mmm. Yes...that would be good. An alternative universe where we can summon up alternative outcomes.

Just picturing a bear appearing in that room on the 32nd floor and wrapping everyone of those weapons around that fellow's own neck before he ever got a digit near the trigger of any of them. [Devil]

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Always these debates about what the 2nd Amendment really means. Clearly it's unclear. We need to scrap it and write a new one.

That, at least, is not at all unclear. There is a well-established procedure for changing the constitution.

With the current state of public opinion, the chance of it happening is zero.

Posts: 4768 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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This must drive sensible Americans to despair.

“Bump stocks are selling out across America as momentum gathers in Congress to ban the rifle modification used by the Las Vegas shooter to obtain catastrophically high rates of fire.

The devices are sold out or temporarily unavailable from all the largest gun and ammunition retailers in the US, as fear of an impending ban has sent many gun enthusiasts hoarding.”

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Garden. Room. Walk

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