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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fucking Guns
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Mentally ill white dude carries legal gun into church murdering a few sinful Christians. Glad it wasn't a brown man from extreme vetting country whom the drones missed and ISIS claimed.
In other news, surge in gun buying reported. Because yawn.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A few things we already knew are confirmed.
US gun laws are crap.
The POTUS is a fucking twat.
Sadly, this has been confirmed at the expense of the life of the Baptist pastor's 14 year old daughter and 4% of the popular of a small Texan town.
Will anyone deal with it?
No they fucking won't.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Ah, never mind - all is well, this isn’t a guns situation. .
No gun problem here, oh no. The 26 people just stopped breathing, is all. Move on, nothing to see.
Come on folks, buy more guns - you know how much they’re needed. The Texas governor is embarrassed at the low, low level of gun ownership in his state.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
On NPR today I heard that the gunman walked up to the church building and began firing through the walls and door. Then he went inside and fired some more.
Even if the entire congregation were armed, with their guns in their hands, there is nothing they could have done. Even if the pastor in the pulpit had an assault rifle propped up on the lectern, cocked and aimed, it would be impossible. To claim that arming people -more- is clearly mania.
The National Rifle Association is a terrorist organization.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The National Rifle Association is a terrorist organization.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Yes, but probably not made up of brown people of A Strange And Alien Faith, speaking funny languages....so no threat to anyone worth threatening, then.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Isn't it about time we called these terrorist attacks? This is terrorism by any definition I would suggest. It is facilitated by a political lobby, the NRA, indeed as well said above, that makes it a terrorist organization.
Hoffman:
... terrorism is:
ineluctably political in aims and motives;
violent – or, equally important, threatens violence;
designed to have far-reaching psychological repercussions beyond the immediate victim or target;
conducted either by an organization with an identifiable chain of command or conspiratorial cell structure (whose members wear no uniform or identifying insignia) or by individuals or a small collection of individuals directly influenced, motivated, or inspired by the ideological aims or example of some existent terrorist movement and/or its leaders;
and
perpetrated by a subnational group or non-state entity.
Bockstette:
Terrorism is defined as political violence in an asymmetrical conflict that is designed to induce terror and psychic fear (sometimes indiscriminate) through the violent victimization and destruction of non-combatant targets (sometimes iconic symbols). Such acts are meant to send a message from an illicit clandestine organization. The purpose of terrorism is to exploit the media in order to achieve maximum attainable publicity as an amplifying force multiplier in order to influence the targeted audience(s) in order to reach short- and midterm political goals and/or desired long-term end states.
This state sponsored terrorism is knowingly perpetrated by the NRA to fulfil its ideal of fully armed Americans.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Although there's nothing legalistically illicit or clandestine about the NRA.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Although there's nothing legalistically illicit or clandestine about the NRA.
Letting hooligans loose with assault rifles doesn't have a lot to do with a "well-regulated militia".
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Perhaps not, but I think Martin makes a fair point.
Alas, to many Americans, 'terrorists' seem to be seen as brown people with funny names, a religion alien to the True American Gospel (i.e. worship of The Flag), and a fanatical desire to Destroy The American Way Of Life.
It would take something of a sea-change for those Americans to see their own Good Ol' White Boys as terrorists...
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Blogger Tom Sullivan suggests a "Now Is Not the Time" clock to keep track of how long it's been since the latest mass shooting.
Given the rate at which these incidents occur (though only in America, for some reason ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ) even if we only reset the clock after mass shootings (at least 3 people shot) which involve at least one fatality and assume we have to wait at least a week before it's "the time" to discuss gun violence, the only times in the past year where such a discussion could take place were February 5 and July 20. If we include mass shootings that "only" involve non-fatal injuries such a discussion could never take place, which one suspects is the whole point of "now is not the time".
Data source on American mass shootings.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
It's not going to change.
After Sandy Hook, we decided that, actually, come to think of it, we can live with the deaths of 20 schoolchildren and six teachers. If you can live with that, well. You can just about live with anything.
At this point, it's Another Mass Shooting. Like Another 45 Outrage, or Another Traffic Jam, or Another Thing That Happens These Days, Donchaknow. It's like earthquakes in fracking zones or hurricanes growing more destructive. Nothing that can be done about it. People adapt. People accept. It's part of life now.
This weekend, I was monitoring a protest. The counterprotesters (about a hundred) showed up openly carrying guns. Handguns, rifles, AR-15's, you name it—openly carried on the streets. It's terrifying, yes, knowing that so many people have that kind of weaponry. Which is the point, I suppose, if you're a white nationalist—silence other views through a show of force (in the name of Freedom).
It's what we live with now. That's just how it is.
[ 06. November 2017, 15:51: Message edited by: Ariston ]
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
So the once-great America is now the country where, if you have a spat with your ma-in-law, you go to church.
And murder the congregation - babies and all.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
... [the perpetrator] was probably a lone-wolf white male, as nobody was reporting that he was non-white, which they most certainly would have had that been the case ...
Those were my thoughts exactly, Passer. It seemed odd to me that (late last night) even when they had the killer's name, it took until this morning for them to publish his photograph.
And of course all that the idiot Trump can say is "thank God for the Good Guy With A Gun".
I won't be holding my breath for this shooting to be the one that makes my southerly neighbours do something about their gun regulations.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
No doubt, Piglet, you're thankful to be living in a civilised country. IIRC, these shooting sprees seem to be rare in Canada...
I wonder why that is?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
No doubt, Piglet, you're thankful to be living in a civilised country. IIRC, these shooting sprees seem to be rare in Canada...
I wonder why that is?
IJ
America has more guns, more handguns, looser gun laws, more distrust in government and a 226 year old amendment regarding the right.
[ 06. November 2017, 17:20: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm not sure whether this video of Australian comedian Jim Jeffries has come up on this thread before, but it certainly sums up the issues (in suitably Hellish language).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
(and the Hellish language just underlines his points....)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
This is decidedly Hellish and deliciously cruel. Wayne LaPierre is the head of the National Rifle Association, and this is clearly a troll page.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Behaviour and attitude change requires some motivation or other. Something to have people think clearly that there is a problem, and it is worth doing something about. Clearly shootings of a few dozen people every few days doesn't signify a problem, or if it does, that there are too few guns rather than too many. If more people were killed, would this motivate change? I don't think so. I think it would reinforce the idea that more guns are needed.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
@Ariston, thank the Lord it was Texas, for one horrible moment I thought it was San Fransisco! There was an Antifa protest there Saturday night I believe.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Alas that it was necessary for the Post to publish this: helpful tips on what to do if you should be in an active shooter situation.
That is seriously horrible. Here's another, your Department of Homeland Security (nitwit name, they seem pretty ineffective) has video game scenario thing, which is also seriously terrible. It's nice that the company which created it also trains soldiers to kill people.
If you want to learn to do a mass shooting, there's any number of video games you can buy it seems to help you learn how. Perhaps this is how one gets desensitized to actually commit mass murder? Here's an example link to a youtube video someone recorded of themselves playing a game called "Call of Duty Modern Warefare 2". There are thousands of these self-recorded video game sequences of people showing off how good they are at doing it. The shooting on this one starts just after 1:40 in with a massacre at airport security. The "mission" is to kill as many people in an airport as possible, maybe they can set the next one in Las Vegas at a concert or a Texas church? Basically training to be a mass murder shooter. I'd say NSFW but that's putting it mildly.
Anyone else support a complete ban? Of forget it. No point in even starting that discussion.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
FWIW, I've started a file on violent language.
Nobody just gets ill, undergoes treatment, and recovers any more; they "fight" and "battle" illness, and the "win" their war with it.
Just yesterday I came across an ad for insoles titled "Fight the Slip."
There's so much anger, violence, and hostility in our everyday usages. We're entranced with violence. I don't know why I'm surprised; we also live in eternal war.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Data source on American mass shootings.
That is bloody frightening. Bloody frightening. I had heard stats on gun attacks, and suicide [!], but seeing them listed calmly on a website as if it were the telephone directory listing addresses...3 dead....1 dead...3 injured...
Then I stupidly clicked on Last 72 Hours. FFS.
I need to log off.
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
If Texas were to now take the lead and enact the tiniest bit of gun control, that might *help* turn the gun control tide. And maybe a couple of other Southern states, and Idaho. (Just because they're known for gun culture.)
Sen. Ted Cruz (Republican, TX) said on "Nightline", when asked about gun control, that it doesn't help when the media always makes these things political.
However, given that the church shooter was shot and chased off by a neighbor with a gun (and another man), this may just reinforce the "good guys with guns" thing.
Like that incident in a convenience store in...Seattle(?) a few years back. Creep was attacking the clerk with a knife, IIRC. Customer had a gun, used it, and IIRC the creep died. Customer was totally shaken. Hadn't done anything like that before. But, as a Shipmate said at the time, that's exactly the kind of incident the pro-carry folks are talking about.
And after the first Colorado theater shooting, with the guy costumed as the Joker, gun sales there went up. I'm not sure what they thought they'd be able to accurately do in a darkened theater.
But I think that guns, other than maybe for hunting, are there to give owners a sense of control over their own destinies.
I don't remotely support this. But the idea that a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun isn't 100% wrong...which means that people want to keep/buy guns, just in case.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
But the idea that a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun isn't 100% wrong
No, it's just 99.99% wrong.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yes, and it's that tiny fraction of times when it's accurate that pushes the rest of the times out of the minds of pro-carry folks.
It might be easier to shift the situation a bit if it never, ever worked at all.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
It might be easier to shift the situation a bit if it never, ever worked at all.
It might also help to highlight the times when it's gone terribly wrong. There must be a lot more times when the "good guy with a gun" accidentally shot someone by mistake - either mistaking someone for a "bad guy with a gun" or in opening fire misses his target and hits someone else. There is a constant stream of stories of supposedly well-trained cops shooting people in error, how many more examples of untrained civilians?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I don't think any of this works. As the video I linked to amply demonstrates, the desire ingrained in many Americans to carry guns and the fear of what will happen if the right to do so is curtailed are both fundamentally irrational.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Alan--
As with most things (electrical repair, deep-frying a turkey, canning, car repair, slicing bagels), people who proceed on their own tend to think they know what they're doing.
I've mentioned, on occasion, the gun accident prevention PSAs that were on TV when I was a kid, and how they educated me enough to prod some thoughtless grownups to be a little more careful. If there were new, national PSAs like that, aimed at both kids and grownups, about basic gun *safety*...they might not prevent things like church shootings, but they might at least prevent some actual accidents. Ideally, put out or endorsed by the NRA.
And, after a few years, if accidents went down, and no authorities hauled away Guns Rightly Owned By Good Decent Christian People, there might be a little more breathing room for pro-carry folks to agree with a tiny bit of regulation, to make things a tiny bit safer.
Faster change would be wonderful, if it worked. But it's unlikely, unless maybe survivors and grieving families of shootings managed to join together publicly, and tell their stories over and over. Though that might draw a target on *them*--physically, socially, conspiracy-theoretically. Some people believe the Sandy Hook shooting was fake and/or a set-up.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I think the film industry holds some blame, staring with the old cowboy films.
This picture of the ‘good guy with a gun’ saving the day comes straight from there imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Boogie--
Sure, and from TV, and old radio shows. You watch old Westerns, and guns are often the problem-solvers of choice. And retro TV stations are rerunning Westerns.
Ironically, the title character of one of the old favorites, "The Rifleman", said "Anytime you fire a gun, you've failed". (That's firing at a person.)
Other factors are our pioneer history, and our mythology (national, regional, local).
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Of course, in the old Westerns when the new Sheriff rode into town to restore order the first thing he did was get an ordnance passed so that everyone had to surrender their guns to him for the time they were in town. Which is exactly what the "right to carry" people are advocating (not).
Or, more recently, on the few occasions when guns made an appearance in Buffy her response was something along the lines of "these things never help".
It's called selective reasoning. Take the bits of history and culture that support your argument and ignore the rest. Something I'm as guilty of as anyone.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Alan--
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Of course, in the old Westerns when the new Sheriff rode into town to restore order the first thing he did was get an ordnance passed so that everyone had to surrender their guns to him for the time they were in town. Which is exactly what the "right to carry" people are advocating (not).
I think most of the Westerns I've watched were different from that, so we've seen different ones. Lots and lots of Westerns out there.
However, have you seen "Angel and the Badman"? Old favorite, and local retro station has been running it lately.
--SPOILERS--
John Wayne is Quirt Evans, an injured gunman who's taken in and tended by a Quaker family. Tug of war between their ways and his. Slow romance. Meanwhile, there's a sheriff from elsewhere who's doggedly pursued him for a long time, trying to catch him in something, etc., etc. Mentions he respects QE enough to hang him with a new rope, if the time comes.
Things build up, and QE has to make a choice which way to go, in the middle of a very dangerous situation. He leaves behind his gun and holster, and the sheriff said he was going to hang them on his office wall...with a new rope.
--end SPOILERS--
In the old "Kung Fu" TV series, with a renegade Chinese Shao-Lin priest in the Old West, Kwai Chang never uses a gun. He does use martial arts, as necessary, and strategy, and talking to people. And the reason he has to leave China is quite a chain of causes and effects of violence. A royal guard disrespects Master Po, Kwai Chang's teacher. Po, who happens to be blind, uses his staff to sweep the guard to the ground. The royal nephew, seeing from a nearby carriage, shoots Po. KC, in grief and rage, picks up the guard's spear, and throws it straight into the carriage, killing the royal nephew. Po dies; the fugitive KC has to leave the monastery and (eventually) China, and everything spills out from there.
quote:
Or, more recently, on the few occasions when guns made an appearance in Buffy her response was something along the lines of "these things never help".
Though B has Slayer super-strength, supernatural materials and magic, Giles and the Scoobies, and her Mr. Pointy sticks. Plus Angel and Spike.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:
It's called selective reasoning. Take the bits of history and culture that support your argument and ignore the rest. Something I'm as guilty of as anyone.
Yeah, we all do it. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I think it's a matter of where you *start* your reasoning, much of the time. Two people in the same situation may start at different places, according to what they value.
Ever try to untangle a mess of yarn? How did you do it? Lots of ways. Then there's Alexander the Great's sharp solution to the Gordian Knot.
Or working through a printed maze. Some people find it much easier to start at the end and work back. Takes the pressure off, I think.
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I think the film industry holds some blame, staring with the old cowboy films.
This picture of the ‘good guy with a gun’ saving the day comes straight from there imo.
Ah, I agree with that too.
What I see today in many, many, many US movies and series, even quite highbrow ones, is that at the end of the day, doing justice oneself - more often than not lethally - is somehow more honourable than letting institutional justice take its course.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
It's more subtle than that.
"Make my day punk" - "give me an excuse to kill you"
"Jokey" sign in a field - "Trespassers will be shot. Survivers will be shot again" - ha fucking ha.
Both are "I want to be able to kill someone and it be justified homicide".
It's a sickness. Too many macho sociopaths who'd just love the situation to arise where they get to kill someone. Killing people is seen as a solution to problems. The solution to muggers is to kill muggers. The solution to burglary is to kill burglars. Trump is threatening it. He thinks it makes him look big.
[ 07. November 2017, 11:04: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Both are "I want to be able to kill someone and it be justified homicide".
I've seen stats (sorry can't find them just now) stating something like 250 "justifiable homicides" per year in the US by private citizens with guns. It's the sort of number that gets wheeled out as examples of "good guys with guns". The problem is I've not seen a break down of what those are, and under what definition they are "justifiable". Do they include protection of property? Because, I don't think it's justified to kill someone to stop them nicking your TV. Do they include trespass, as in the "trespassers will be shot" signs, because being somewhere you shouldn't doesn't justify being shot. And so on. How many of those 250 deaths were of someone who was armed and clearly intent on harming someone else?
quote:
It's a sickness ... Killing people is seen as a solution to problems. ... Trump is threatening it. He thinks it makes him look big.
It's a sickness that affects others. I suppose if the people of the US want to accept a collective delusion that a "good guy with a gun" is a solution to anything they're entitled to do so, and pay the cost of 30,000 gun deaths a year as a consequence. But, that same philosophy affects US foreign policy, where the US government considers themselves to be the "good guy" with a massive military as "the gun". Then they need to pick some "bad guy" to defend the rest of us from and go stomping around the world picking wars to demonstrate how a "good nation with an arsenal of thermonuclear bombs" can take down the "bad guy". Problem is, it isn't any more successful as national foreign policy than it is domestically.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The question is whether a "good guy with a gun" is perceived as intrinsically better at the end of the day than "a democratic institution". The answer in the US appears to be a resounding "no".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There is such thing as "good guys with guns".
Which is why I called it a delusion.
[ 07. November 2017, 12:27: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
@Ariston, thank the Lord it was Texas, for one horrible moment I thought it was San Fransisco! There was an Antifa protest there Saturday night I believe.
California wasn't left out. Only two people were killed in that church on Sunday, so it wasn't major news.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Only on Fox News could you get someone to assure us that it's better to get shot in a church. Apparently they believe it's more convenient for Him to pick you up there.
Filmmaker Michael Moore has posted:
"Ok, after hearing the history of the Texas gunman, I finally get it. Before you can buy a gun in the USA, you first can beat your wife numerous times and point a gun at her and be charged with 6 counts of domestic violence, then you can beat and kick her baby until you break his skull, then, after you've served a prison sentence for that violence, you can be court-martialed and removed from the military for “bad conduct,” and THEN, after ALL that, you can have an hour-long stand-off with police after you’ve clubbed your dog in the head - after which you are then arrested for animal cruelty — AND THEN AND ONLY THEN you can go out a legally buy the assault weapon of your choice! WHY DOESN’T ANY OTHER COUNTRY FOLLOW OUR FINE EXAMPLE?!"
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
We're talking about a population that props up a trillion dollar lottery "industry". Objectively reasoned extrapolation is not the strong suit of the average individual.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Brenda said:
quote:
Only on Fox News could you get someone to assure us that it's better to get shot in a church. Apparently they believe it's more convenient for Him to pick you up there.
Further proof, if needed, that the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
[qb] Both are "I want to be able to kill someone and it be justified homicide".
I've seen stats (sorry can't find them just now) stating something like 250 "justifiable homicides" per year in the US by private citizens with guns. It's the sort of number that gets wheeled out as examples of "good guys with guns". The problem is I've not seen a break down of what those are, and under what definition they are "justifiable". Do they include protection of property? Because, I don't think it's justified to kill someone to stop them nicking your TV. Do they include trespass, as in the "trespassers will be shot" signs, because being somewhere you shouldn't doesn't justify being shot. And so on. How many of those 250 deaths were of someone who was armed and clearly intent on harming someone else?
Remembering what I learned in Social Studies, when it comes to justifiable use of force by police causing a death, justification only applies if the police officer has a reasonable expectation of imminent danger. Now I'm in Canada, so I don't know if American law is different, but trespassing under this definition doesn't fly. The only justification for killing someone is if they are going to kill you first.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Mentally ill white dude carries legal gun into church murdering a few sinful Christians.
There isn't the slightest indication that this man had a diagnosed mental illness.
Neither was he a terrorist. Terrorists are working for political organizations. Calling this man a terrorist dignifies his actions. He wasn't killing for a cause.
He was a heinous, vile, ignorant, angry murderer who hated his mother-in-law and all her friends.
Republicans only care about mental illness when they're trying to deflect blame from the gun issue. Trump recently over-turned an Obama-era bill to keep mentally ill people from buying guns. If he succeeds in repealing Obama-care millions of mentally ill people will no longer get care. It will be tragic for them, but it wont really make a big difference in the number of gun deaths every year because most of those are perpetrated by, "sane," people.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's a sickness. Too many macho sociopaths who'd just love the situation to arise where they get to kill someone.
I know this is Hell, but this is an exaggeration. Are there such people? Yes, of course. But the fantasy is being the hero more than killing someone. It isn't a thought through philosophy, as much as it is this:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
We're talking about a population that props up a trillion dollar lottery "industry". Objectively reasoned extrapolation is not the strong suit of the average individual.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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