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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Mentally ill white dude carries legal gun into church murdering a few sinful Christians.

There isn't the slightest indication that this man had a diagnosed mental illness.

Neither was he a terrorist. Terrorists are working for political organizations. Calling this man a terrorist dignifies his actions. He wasn't killing for a cause.

He was a heinous, vile, ignorant, angry murderer who hated his mother-in-law and all her friends.

Republicans only care about mental illness when they're trying to deflect blame from the gun issue. Trump recently over-turned an Obama-era bill to keep mentally ill people from buying guns. If he succeeds in repealing Obama-care millions of mentally ill people will no longer get care. It will be tragic for them, but it wont really make a big difference in the number of gun deaths every year because most of those are perpetrated by, "sane," people.

Nail head. Hammer. Contact.
With a caveat: Making it harder for the mentally ill and people with a history of violence to buy guns won't make a statistical difference in the number of American gun deaths.
However, those 26 Texans and their families would have been better off had Texas gun laws that approached reasonable.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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RooK

1 of 6
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One would hope that a history of convicted violent offences would be sufficient cause to deny gun (or at least assault weapon) ownership - regardless of any definitively diagnosed mental illnesses.
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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
One would hope that a history of convicted violent offences would be sufficient cause to deny gun (or at least assault weapon) ownership - regardless of any definitively diagnosed mental illnesses.

It would also be nice if the Air Force had actually done their job and entered his domestic violence court-martial into a federal database which would have blocked him from buying the rifle (or at least made it more difficult).
[Mad]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Twilight

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Right, there was no need to suggest a mental illness. He should not have been able to buy guns based on his criminal history and if the Air Force hadn't made a mistake he wouldn't have been able to buy those guns.

Still, I doubt if that would have stopped him. People intent on murder usually don't have scruples about stealing.

I think the only answer to our gun problem is the sort of ban Australia has. All the gun "control" laws that try to keep guns from the bad guys, whether they be mentally ill or convicted felons are just distractions.

Look at some of our recent mass murders. Gun control laws wouldn't have kept the Las Vegas shooter from buying his guns, or the Sandy Hook shooter from using his mother's guns, or the Columbine shooters from getting an older friend to buy their guns, or the schizophrenic "Joker," who killed the people in the movie theater, from buying guns -- he hadn't been diagnoses yet.

Which points to the biggest problem with making psychiatrists report their patients to a gun control registry. It discourages the untreated mentally ill from seeking treatment while stigmatizing the ones who are getting treatment -- and mentally ill people who are taking their medication are actually less likely than the average person to commit a violent act.

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Jengie jon

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

Still, I doubt if that would have stopped him. People intent on murder usually don't have scruples about stealing.
the average person to commit a violent act.

Yeah, but why make it even easier for them.

Actually, it just might in some cases. Not because they could not steal them, with the number of guns in American society that is hardly difficult. Hint: if you want to make it hard to steal guns make it difficult to own them with laws such as they need to be kept in a locked cabinet. This makes it technically harder and also reduces the pool of guns available for stealing.

Rather because they would decide that they wanted to own the weapon they used and if they did not own it they could not use it. Yeah, weird logic but humans who do this sort of thing are not exactly logical. I am always struck by the ritualistic element to it. The owning of weapons seems, to me, just another part of the ritual.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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Anglican_Brat
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I assume you are not allowed to bring weapons into the Capitol building or the White House.

If American politicians can be safe from the ravages of guns, why shouldn't ordinary American civilians.

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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jbohn
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I assume you are not allowed to bring weapons into the Capitol building or the White House.

If American politicians can be safe from the ravages of guns, why shouldn't ordinary American civilians.

On the federal level, correct.

State laws vary - some have no prohibition whatsoever, and many allow carry permit holders to carry on the Capitol grounds (MN is one).

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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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Brenda Clough
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You are in fact not allowed to carry weapons into the White House or the Capitol. But you will recall that the legislators are very very careful indeed to exempt themselves from all the laws they place upon us. Neither the employee regulations nor laws about abuse apply to them.
The National Rifle Association forbade the carrying of weapons into their national convention. If you put this into a novel, people would complain it was unbelievable.
From the Atlantic, an article summarizing why Congress is so limp on gun laws.

[ 07. November 2017, 18:45: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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Brenda's link just confirms my take on it.

Sure, as Jengie says, any controls would be helpful, but the opposition has consistently looked at any sort of gun control as the thin end of the wedge that's going to take away their beloved guns.

They fight just as hard to keep "bump stocks," legal as they would against a total ban. So why not go for the total ban? We have been begging for scraps for too many years. They will not compromise in the slightest, so it's time to say to hell with all their whining pleas to keep their guns for hunting, or for their collections, or to feel safe when their screen door squeaks in the night. I'm fed up.

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Brenda Clough
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It will only happen if the greater mass of people who support control will phone those spineless congressmen.
I would suggest a more subtle way. It is to make the gun makers/owners liable for the damages they cause. Empower insurance providers to sell insurance. That immediately transfers the onus and regulation of guns to the insurance people. It is how cars have steadily become safer; not because anyone wants to pay for seat belts but because insurance companies insist on them.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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simontoad
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I'm not convinced our sort of gun laws would work in the USA, if only because the penetration of weapons is so much deeper for you guys than it was for us in 1996. I think a crafted US solution is needed, but I appreciate that you're talking out of a place of anger Twilight, or at least I think you are.

On the film tangent, I have often thought that the hero saving the world/ fighting against the odds thing is unfortunate. Then I think that without such stories, we Westerners wouldn't be us. The story is ancient, with deep roots in our culture. One only has to mention The Odyssey or the norse sagas. Just don't mention any films.

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Golden Key
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I'm fed up, too.

But I suspect an all-out ban on guns would do far more harm than good:

--Most gun owners probably wouldn't turn in their guns, or not turn in all of them.

--The hardcore "the gov't is going to take us over, and the Founders were right that we periodically need a violent revolution" folks would have what they've been waiting for.

--The many folks who only have very mild concerns about the gov't maybe someday getting to that point will have their worst fears confirmed.

--Law enforcement officers (LEOs) knock on doors, asking if the resident might possibly have been too busy to drop off any guns they might have, and whether they'd let the LEOs take the guns away for them. (Alternatively, "bring us your guns, or we're gonna come in and search, and we don't need no stinkin' warrants".)

--A lot of folks, seeing only chaos, don't understand what's going on, and just want to keep themselves, their loved ones, and their property safe...and either get guns, or go totally off the grid somewhere.

--Civil war. Not just two sides, but all sorts of battles going on, all over the place, all the time.

What a world.
[Frown]

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Anglican_Brat
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Some Americans have this weird fetish for the Founders, it's almost crazy to think that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, et al should have any bearing on present day political issues.

If they supported a right to bear arms, who cares? They are dead and buried, and do not have any claim to the living.

The British do not invoke Churchill to solve their problems nor do the French involve Charles De Gaulle.

[ 07. November 2017, 22:01: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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simontoad
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No, the Brits invoke the spirit of WW2 though and past glories to inform present policies. The French certainly invoke their blood-soaked revolution to justify their tradition of protest.

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Human

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Golden Key
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AB--

[Ultra confused]

Wow.

And what simontoad said.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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A friend of mine of noted spiritual discernment posted:
"God has a message for Congress and the President of the United States regarding their ongoing thoughts and prayers:

When you extend your hands,
I'll hide my eyes from you.
Even when you pray for a long time,
I won't listen.
Your hands are stained with blood.
Wash! Be clean!
Remove your ugly deeds
from my sight.
Put an end to such evil;
learn to do good.
Seek justice:
help the oppressed;
defend the orphan;
plead for the widow.
(Isaiah 1:15-17)

Offer your "thoughts and prayers," but God isn't listening until you do something."

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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simontoad
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Amen Brenda, amen.

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Human

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Ohher
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# 18607

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I would suggest a more subtle way. It is to make the gun makers/owners liable for the damages they cause.

This information is also in the link I posted earlier to "Fully Loaded," but here is a more succinct reason why we cannot sue gun manufacturers.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There is such thing as "good guys with guns".

But when the bullets start flying they are indistinguishable from "bad guys with guns."

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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mousethief

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From Brenda's link:

' “It’s hard to envision a foolproof way to prevent individual outrages by evil people,” Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell reportedly said on Monday in Kentucky.'

This is Republican bullshit. We can't think of something foolproof, so we're not going to do anything at all. Look, who gives a fuck about foolproof? Give us something that might work say 75% of the time. That will still save lives.

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Remembering what I learned in Social Studies, when it comes to justifiable use of force by police causing a death, justification only applies if the police officer has a reasonable expectation of imminent danger.

In this country, judging by case law, "reasonable expectation of imminent danger" equals "he was black." We appear to have a surfeit of white-ass cops who shit their drawers whenever they see a young black man. And the rest of the cops protect them to the hilt because to turn traitor would guarantee them a permanent vacation without pay. The blue wall keeps young black men in danger of being killed at any traffic stop by Schrödinger's cop. Will I be a dead cat or a live cat? No way of knowing until I either drive away alive, or am shot because when I sneezed it looked like I was reaching for a rocket launcher.

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
mentally ill people who are taking their medication are actually less likely than the average person to commit a violent act.

They're probably less likely to buy a gun, too.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There is such thing as "good guys with guns".

But when the bullets start flying they are indistinguishable from "bad guys with guns."
...which is why I have a hard time understanding what the Colorado folks who bought guns after the theater shooting had in mind. (Other than that they were drowning in their own sheer terror.)

In a darkened theater, how do you (gen.) tell who the bad guy is? How do you accurately aim? And, when the cops come, how do *they* decide whether you're a good guy or a bad guy? They answer a report of an active shooter, walk in, and find you with a gun. Yeah, that's gonna go well.

Even moreso if the audience is mostly good guys with guns. Who are all trying to helpfully resolve the situation by shooting the shooter.

[ 08. November 2017, 00:40: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Piglet
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# 11803

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I'm sure the fact that the "good guy with a gun" in Sutherland Springs shot the killer and made him run away will be of enormous comfort to the families of the 26 people who were already dead by the time he got there.

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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LutheranChik
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# 9826

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Meanwhile, in my state there are two bills floating through the legislature making it legal for preschool and daycare personnel to carry concealed firearms. And they just sent a no- vote- required recommendation to the state Department of Natural Resources to establish a hunting season for sandhill cranes. Sandhill cranes.

Arm every fucking person and shoot all the fucking things. Our new state motto.

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Simul iustus et peccator
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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Sandhill cranes are hunted in Saskatchewan and Manitoba with a daily limit of 5, 15 max in your possession.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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LutheranChik
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Then Manitobans are equally insane.

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Simul iustus et peccator
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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Piglet--

I have no idea how the town felt about guns before, or feels about them now.

But what you said could feed the "see, you've got to have a gun on you at all time" litany.

The people who survived might be grateful for the neighbor's actions.

I saw him on TV. He said that God saved him (when?) and gave him those skills, so that he could help his neighbors in this situation.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Sandhill cranes are hunted in Saskatchewan and Manitoba with a daily limit of 5, 15 max in your possession.

Are they edible??? Or is this hunting for hunting's sake? Or are they deemed to be at invasive levels?

Thx.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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mousethief, "shit their drawers" gives me an image of someone sitting on an open (I have no idea what you call them) drawer taking a dump on his polo shirts.

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Human

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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Drawers is a rather quaint synonym for trousers (or pants, as we call them). "Drop your drawers," meaning let your trousers down, is another rather common colloquialism along with "shit your drawers," which of course means just what it says.

In a completely different context, we also use "drawers" for the compartments that pull out and push in on a desk or dresser.

[ 08. November 2017, 04:25: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Hmmmm...IME, "drawers" is a folksy euphemism for underpants, not trousers. FWIW.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There is such thing as "good guys with guns".

But when the bullets start flying they are indistinguishable from "bad guys with guns."
...which is why I have a hard time understanding what the Colorado folks who bought guns after the theater shooting had in mind. (Other than that they were drowning in their own sheer terror.)

In a darkened theater, how do you (gen.) tell who the bad guy is? How do you accurately aim? And, when the cops come, how do *they* decide whether you're a good guy or a bad guy? They answer a report of an active shooter, walk in, and find you with a gun. Yeah, that's gonna go well.

Even moreso if the audience is mostly good guys with guns. Who are all trying to helpfully resolve the situation by shooting the shooter.

Of course, darkness in a cinema would add to confusion, but the same applies everywhere.

Imagine you're in a shopping mall, at a sports event or wherever and there's report of an active shooter. You know there are cops on the way looking for someone with a gun. You expect there are some "good guys with guns" present also looking for someone with a gun. It would seem blindingly obvious that in that situation the most dangerous thing for you to do is get a gun out, making yourself look just like the person all those other people with guns are looking for. Dangerous for yourself and others nearby who will be at risk from poor aim and ricochet.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Jane R
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# 331

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simontoad:
quote:
No, the Brits invoke the spirit of WW2 though and past glories to inform present policies.
...yeah, and look how well that's going...
Posts: 3932 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Then Manitobans are equally insane.

Wildlife is very carefully managed here. With mild winters there's been a 30 year explosion of waterfowl populations. So many. Sandhill cranes are in two major North American groups. This hunted one is very stable. Also realize that indigenous people have treaty rights to eat traditionally including these birds. We also have far too many moose and deer. Please don't impose notions from areas where perhaps you have mismanaged wildlife populations. We're not insane, settlement suppressed prairie grass fires which created habitat. It's probably not as you think it is.
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Hmmmm...IME, "drawers" is a folksy euphemism for underpants, not trousers. FWIW.

Correct. And "shit your drawers" means you have an irrational reaction due to fear.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Remember too how the Texas shooting went down. The shooter walked up to the church during services. He sprayed the outside of the building and the door. (His military-level weapon could easily punch a bullet through the walls and door.) Only then did he open the door and go in.
So: you're sitting in the pew. Behind you, through the wall, comes the bullets from the loon outside. Exactly what good is the gun in your hand going to do you? You could of course just start spraying fire everywhere. Should the pastor, up at the front behind the lectern, start shooting? At the walls? That's going to help the flock a lot.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Well, exactly. The whole thing is out of some nightmare movie.....except that it's real life (or, rather, real death).

The image of Gropo's 'Great America' that is emerging is truly horrific.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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I'd like to know exactly how the shooters retreat went down, since Trump seems to think hundreds more would have died if the neighbor hadn't had a gun.

Was Kelley running toward his truck when the neighbor shot him?

If so, I imagine Kelley was going to do what most mass murderers do in these sort of scenarios, which is lead a police chase for awhile and then shoot themselves. Which is what Kelley did. He didn't die from the neighbor's shots to his leg but from his own shot to his head.

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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How does a cop arriving on the scene distinguish the good shooter from the bad shooter?

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Human

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
How does a cop arriving on the scene distinguish the good shooter from the bad shooter?

It helps if one of them is black.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349

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CBC News interviewed three gun owners from Sutherland Springs about gun control yesterday. Despite what happened, these gun owners were quite adamant that gun control is wrong. Their arguments:

1) Gun control doesn't work because the bad guys don't follow rules. My reply: By the same logic, you can argue that we can dispense with law altogether. The law against murder doesn't prevent "bad guys" from murdering people.

2) People kill each other using knives and trucks, doesn't mean we ban knives and trucks. Reply: Knives and trucks and cars have legitimate uses, apart from killing people. A gun is meant to kill.

3) We may need semi-automatic guns to protect ourselves. Reply: The US Military and police are there to protect you. If you support the military and police, you would let them do their job. Every other western democracy understands that for society to function, only the State has the legitimate use of violence or force.

If you reject the basic principle, then you reject the very basis of democratic society.

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Was it all over when it became okay with shooting school children? Would a terror campaign against gun factories also confirm the need for more guns?

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349

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I assume gun control will only come if the Democrats win Congress, the White House, and pretty much sweep everything else.

2020?

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Do you remember the last time? When Barack Obama was elected there was a froth of fury among NRA members. The persistent rumors circulated that Obama was going to Come And Take Our Gunz. Sales zoomed, ammunition was hoarded. Such a fury was whipped up that Obama could not move on gun control, even when children were gunned down in schools. It didn't help that he was a black man. The other persistent feature of gun mania in the US is that the guns are, mostly, owned and hoarded by white people. Second Amendment rights do not, mostly, pertain to black people; if you are a black man with a gun your life is in danger.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Reply: The US Military and police are there to protect you. If you support the military and police, you would let them do their job.

Apparently, the police have no duty to protect you.
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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Reply: The US Military and police are there to protect you. If you support the military and police, you would let them do their job.

Apparently, the police have no duty to protect you.
And the legal system (NOT a justice system, though sometimes called that) is a wreck. E.g., innocent people in prison, even executed. Money bail makes things worse for low-income/-asset folks. They don't have the resources to pay it, so they stay locked up (with all the horrors that happen in American jails and prisons) until trial--sometimes for a year or more. They can lose their families, homes, jobs, everything--without even being tried. (And yes, attempted change is in the works.)

There've got to be some decent cops out there, who--at the very least--try to find out who really did what, and arrest *that* person with the minimum force necessary. But, AIUI, they've also got to deal with the "thin, blue line" situation/mindset, where it's the Boys & Girls In Blue (uniforms) against everyone else; and they need to know that the cops around them will back them up in a dangerous situation; so they can't always speak up or stop bad situations.

And, sometimes, they get so they make fun of the general public. There was a situation here in SF, some years back, where one group of cops made a video, satirizing (too polite a word) the sorts of people they regularly met. Costumed officers (?) portrayed them. The video was leaked. Big fuss; "oh, it's just a harmless training video"; and IIRC not much in the way of consequences.

Some time later, they did it again.

Oh, and then there are the cops in Oakland, across the Bay, who patronized an under-aged sex worker, and kept patronizing her for years. That spilled out. Lots of fuss. IIRC, there was legal action; and she's out of the area, and living elsewhere. Though that case never seems to end.

Just some samples from real life.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Reply: The US Military and police are there to protect you. If you support the military and police, you would let them do their job.

Apparently, the police have no duty to protect you.
Especially from themselves. They'd rather kill the innocent than protect them from their own fear. In other words the main excuse, that they feared for THEIR lives, is no excuse.

[ 09. November 2017, 09:39: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

Posts: 16887 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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A Lutheran minister of eye-watering stupidity opines about the Texas shooting. Jesus wept.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A Lutheran minister of eye-watering stupidity opines about the Texas shooting. Jesus wept.

Not just eye-watering stupid, but batshit crazy!
[Mad]

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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Well that was a WTF sort of thing. [Confused]

Does he want to be delivered from this world in such a manner, I wonder.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Isn't he the pastor who produced the Lutheran Satire cartoons? They were quite funny, and thought provoking......maybe he's had a brain transplant more recently?

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 9163 | From: Passing The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged



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