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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fucking Guns
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
quote:
I don't think church doors should be locked, but that is a stupid reason to not do it.
Nothing stupid about it at all. The Law of the land requires that anyone shall be able to raise legitimate objection to two people being joined in matrimony. Locked doors would prevent such objections thus rendering the proceedings suspect.

The reason is valid right up until the call has been made for "any just cause or impediment to the joining together in matrimony of these two people, to state their case now, or forever remain silent."

It is a stupid holdover from the days of horses and feet being the primary modes of transportation and the spreading of information. There is no reason in the modern era to have such a ridiculous law.

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Zacchaeus
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I just got an all-church e-mail preparing us for a new procedure starting Sunday. As soon as the service begins all the doors will be locked. This is in response to a suggestion from one of our members who took an "Active Shooter," class.

The only statistic I could find on the odds of being shot in church said it was 1 in 6,552,000 or 0.00000015.

I can't go along with the "if it saves one life," thing because that sort of number has to offset the mental stress of the other 6 billion or so sitting in church feeling unwelcoming and paranoid. We're safest from church shootings if we don't go at all, but I don't think that's a good trade off.

The real risk that is escalated by this new rule is that one of the candles is going to set our pastor's robe on fire and as we all rush forward to help her we will forget to unlock the door for the medics and firemen.

The man who made the suggestion is a gun loving Republican and if he starts bringing his gun to church to protect me, I'll be stopping home.

But what happens if the madman with a gun is, inside the church and you are all locked in with him?
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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is a stupid holdover from the days of horses and feet being the primary modes of transportation and the spreading of information. There is no reason in the modern era to have such a ridiculous law.

Do you recognise the irony of that in the context of a thread that only exists because a sizeable number of people see nothing ridiculous about a Constitutional Amendment from the days when a musket was state of the art in weaponry.

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
But what happens if the madman with a gun is inside the church and you are all locked in with him?

I assume that the doors would be locked so that people could not enter*, but that they could be opened from the inside. Most doors on public buildings are required to work this way because of fires. But at any rate, if I were determined to shoot a church full of people, I'd be sure to arrive before the service started. If you're going this route, why not install metal detectors and search all bags before letting people in?

*At my church about 1/4 of the congregation wanders in after the service has started, so I guess they'd be locked out as well.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
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Brenda Clough
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If they're having a wedding and you want to object I submit to you that your relationship with the bride or groom has already passed beyond repair. Besides, you can phone into the church with your cell.

Locking the church doors is especially moronic considering the power of modern assault rifles (which you can buy anywhere, no worries). They have the power to punch a bullet right through a brick wall or a church door, and of course the windows are simply asking for carnage. The criminal simply stands in the parking lot and sprays your building with fire; the worshipers pass from prayer to Heaven without even noticing.

If you really want to worship without these fears, locking the doors is picayune. You need to start constructing a nice worship bunker, earth-sheltered, bombproof, and windowless.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is a stupid holdover from the days of horses and feet being the primary modes of transportation and the spreading of information. There is no reason in the modern era to have such a ridiculous law.

Do you recognise the irony of that in the context of a thread that only exists because a sizeable number of people see nothing ridiculous about a Constitutional Amendment from the days when a musket was state of the art in weaponry.
I think it shares the same stupidity if not the same consequence. It would only be ironic, BTW, if I thought America's gun laws were rational.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Errr, so the freedom to bare arms has now in the process of removing the freedom of worshiping God in an unlocked building.

Well, I have heard of some conservative churches where women are required to wear clothing that has sleeves...
H'mmm, thanks for bearing out my nagging suspicion that I'd got the wrong bare.
How could I have forgotten the "armed Bear".

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RdrEmCofE
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quote:
If they're having a wedding and you want to object I submit to you that your relationship with the bride or groom has already passed beyond repair. Besides, you can phone into the church with your cell.
No you can't phone in. Ridiculous! For one thing everyone should have their cell phones switched off, PARTICULARLY the minister officiating. For another, anyone lodging an objection, (say on the grounds of bigamy, incest, etc). has to present the evidence in person, WHILE the congregation waits for a decision on whether the wedding should continue or be postponed. That decision is the Minister's to make.

If the doors are locked, such evidence and witnesses would be unable to access proceedings. Hence The Law of the land on the issue.

On the other hand, I cannot imagine a wedding just proceeding ahead oblivious of someone hammering on the door of the church loudly demanding entrance, can you?

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

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ThunderBunk

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The other point to make is that objecting to a wedding has nothing directly to do with relationship with the bride or groom. It's a matter of having cause or just (i.e. legal) impediment, i.e. a legal reason why the marriage cannot go ahead. Either you have that or you don't. If you don't, a broken relationship with the parties will not change that.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
On the other hand, I cannot imagine a wedding just proceeding ahead oblivious of someone hammering on the door of the church loudly demanding entrance, can you?

Only in a movie.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
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RdrEmCofE
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Oh yes! I hadn't thought of that. That was a case where he had no legal grounds for objection though, I think.

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
But what happens if the madman with a gun is, inside the church and you are all locked in with him?

I think that's exactly the scenario Twilight is describing...

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I assume that the doors would be locked so that people could not enter*, but that they could be opened from the inside. Most doors on public buildings are required to work this way because of fires. But at any rate, if I were determined to shoot a church full of people, I'd be sure to arrive before the service started. If you're going this route, why not install metal detectors and search all bags before letting people in?

*At my church about 1/4 of the congregation wanders in after the service has started, so I guess they'd be locked out as well.

Pigwidgeon is right on all counts, as is Doc Tor as I do fear the Republican with the gun and a fresh dose of "Active Shooter" training in his blood.
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Brenda Clough
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It's also perfectly easy to find a grenade launcher. Locking the door, pooh.

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RdrEmCofE
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quote:
It's also perfectly easy to find a grenade launcher. Locking the door, pooh.
In the USA, only too true.

What kind of church is it that has a congregation that 'seeks to save their lives', Matt.16:25, Mk 8:35, Lk. 9:24,17:33, by 'locking the doors of the church' Jn. 20:19.

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

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Bishops Finger
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Well, quite.

Leaving aside the question of weddings, AFAIK Church of England services are public events, which anyone may attend if they so choose.

I'm not sure how illegal locking the doors would be, once Divine Service had begun, but it would certainly be undesirable. As at Pigwidgeon's church, a fair proportion of our little flock turns up anywhen up to (or even after) the Gospel...

IJ

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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A new school shooting, in Kentucky. 19 injured, two dead. Not even worthy of remark any more. [Mad]

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Bishops Finger
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At least it has been reported on BBC news, though yes, seemingly becoming a commonplace event.

[Mad] but [Votive] anyway.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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From the BBC report
quote:
Kentucky Senator Mitch McConnell took to the Senate floor to send "prayers of comfort and healing to students, faculty, and staff and everyone affected by this violence".
I think they're getting lazy, rather than write a new article each time this happens they just use a set template and insert the name of the town and number of kids needlessly mown down at the altar of government stupidity and inertia, and prayers of comfort and support not backed up by any action to address the problem.

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Bishops Finger
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No doubt the good Senator meant what he said, but what is all this about 'sending prayers' to those affected by such tragedies?

Curious theology, as prayer is supposed to be addressed to God, isn't it?

I think it is as Alan implies - they simply don't know how to answer the questions their lawless gun culture raises.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
No doubt the good Senator meant what he said, but what is all this about 'sending prayers' to those affected by such tragedies?

Curious theology, as prayer is supposed to be addressed to God, isn't it?

I think it is as Alan implies - they simply don't know how to answer the questions their lawless gun culture raises.

IJ

Honestly, their wallets speak louder than bullets. Not dismissing the cognitive disconnect with the "guns make us safer" crowd, but the lawmakers are ensnared by NRA lobbying which is beholden to gun manufacturers.
Nothing is changing until that changes.

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Brenda Clough
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It's long odds that the speaker isn't praying anyway. At the very most, perhaps, he has a staffer do it. Do you believe it, when the president says he's offering prayers for whoever the latest victims are? Or do you assume that the speechwriter wrote that, and he's just reading it aloud off of the teleprompter?

It's completely formulaic, of no spiritual meaning at all. You might as well look for real religious emotion from a spoon.

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Bishops Finger
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Yes, there does seem to be something formulaic about such phrases.

Whilst I'm willing to give those who say these things the benefit of the doubt, I fear Brenda is probably right.

[Disappointed]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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balaam

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I cannot comprehend that a Government would focus the fear of its citizens on immigrants while its own citizens are regularly perpetrators of atrocities like this.

When will they ever learn?

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It's completely formulaic, of no spiritual meaning at all. You might as well look for real religious emotion from a spoon.

There is no spoon.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Brenda Clough
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You need not use a Post click on this, since the headline says it all: the Virginia state senate passes a bill allowing guns to be carried in churches. The governor has promised to veto it, thank God. Dingbat Republican reps insist that they are needed to defend against church shootings. The law does allow individual churches to ban guns from the premises individually, but a sensible churchgoer points out that churches do not want this baby to be passed to them. “Trying to decide whether you pass the collection plate from the left side or the right side is oftentimes an issue of controversy,” he said. “We’ve got plenty of issues already.”

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Bishops Finger
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From that link, some sensible words from the Governor:
quote:
The Governor is ready to work with the General Assembly to promote responsible gun ownership, but he does not believe more guns in more locations is a solution to the real problem of gun violence
A voice of sanity in a howling wilderness of lunacy?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Brenda Clough
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He is the moderate who was elected by a huge plurality in Virginia, roundly defeating a GOP ideologue. The Republicans still have control of the legislature and so can ram through nutty legislation, but the governor can veto it.

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Bishops Finger
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Well, good luck to him then, as I guess he really needs it!

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Penny S
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Nothing to do with guns, but the parish church in Dover used to have the doors locked for midnight services around Christmas and New Year. More to do with being a port town and the availability of booze. But locked they were, by tradition.
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Brenda Clough
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I think I may have told, somewhere, about the Episcopal church in suburban Virginia where I applied for an office job. It's in a very nice upscale neighborhood. The rector took me for a tour of the facility. They kept the church doors locked except during the services. They used to leave them open, 24-7, until that night when a drunk man came in with a rifle and pumped a number of rounds into the big cross over the altar. You can still see the bullets, they're quite visible from the pews. After that they decided that a lock was a good idea.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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The NRA has a solution to school shootings. There's an obvious extension of that proposal to keep people safe in church as well.

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Bishops Finger
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Simples!

And the same could go for shootings in shopping centres, theatres, you name it - just close down the whole bloody WORLD!

Except for the rifle ranges, of course.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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jbohn
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# 8753

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The NRA has a solution to school shootings. There's an obvious extension of that proposal to keep people safe in church as well.

Uh, I think your satire meter may need recalibrating... [Biased]

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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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Alan Cresswell

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[Roll Eyes]

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Bishops Finger
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I rather thought Alan's satire meter was in excellent working order.... [Two face]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Ohher
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Note to Alan: Don't worry; Batsy* DeVos is hard at work on that task.

*Obviously, she doesn't know how to spell her real name.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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As happens in more than half of all school shootings, this boy used his parent's gun.

Still, the NRA keeps telling us that all we need to do is utilize the existing gun laws to keep "bad guys," from getting guns and all will be well.

[Roll Eyes]

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simontoad
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Back in the 1930's, a worker on my Great-Grandfather's farm used a piece of machinery on the wrong day. The resulting fire burnt out the district, but my Great-Grandfather's losses were minor. The family story is that he spent the rest of his life apologising to his neighbors.

I suppose that lad's parents are going to do the same.

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Human

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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Yes. I heard a parent who was there after the shooting say that one mother kept waiting and waiting to hear news of her child and then finally heard that her son was the shooter. The parent telling the story said she held the woman while she threw-up.

So sad, it reminded me of the book, "We Need to Talk About Kevin," but in this case there seemed to have been no warning signs. The boy was friendly and open with the other students.

I don't think there needs to be guns in any home but particularly not guns in homes with mentally ill people or teens. Teens are still making decisions with the emotional part of their brain and all it takes for some of them to snap is an insult on social media, or a breakup with the girlfriend. What would be slamming out of the house and running a few miles could become a suicide or a shooting when a gun is available.

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Yes, I've read that book too. That poor mother. I'm not a parent, but I have an imagination. I think you're spot on about gun availability around the mentally ill and teens. It still amazes me that so many people were shot in Las Vegas without any significant response from legislators. Being shot can bring a lifetime of disability.

[ 28. January 2018, 00:12: Message edited by: simontoad ]

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Human

Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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That mother of the shooter? It was even weirder. She's an editor at a local paper, and rushed to the school to cover the shooting (Yahoo).

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18594 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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More fun with influence from the NRA: Possible money-laundering.

"Did Russia Use the NRA to Support Trump?" (Esquire).

Grrrrrr.

It's one thing to have an organization for fans of hunting and target shooting, and for keeping the right to do that. It's another for them to push for more and more guns; and yet another to mess with elections.

Double grrrrrr.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18594 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Cue prayers and words of condolence, and fuck all action.

Fuck, again. [brick wall]

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32411 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
jedijudy

Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333

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More students killed today. [Frown]

The news station just showed a video taken from inside a classroom. The sound of the gun fire is terrifying.

As so many have asked before...Why? How can lawmakers still rationalize putting guns into the hands of just about anyone who wants one? Where is the red line? Does one even exist?

Sorry. I'm just feeling extremely hopeless and impotent about these unnecessary tragedies.

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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.

Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
Sorry. I'm just feeling extremely hopeless and impotent about these unnecessary tragedies.

Hence my [brick wall]

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32411 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

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At least 17 are dead. Swearing and blasphemy are not good enough to express my emotions.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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Time to re-set the "Now Is Not The Time" back to zero.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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A cartoon by an atheist.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A cartoon by an atheist.

"Sorry, this content in not available right now."

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016  |  IP: Logged



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