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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fucking Guns
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
This is a creative response: a website where you can sign up to politicize your death. It is a response to that perpetual GOP wheeze, "It's too soon to discuss the tragedy." And it is inspired by the brave teenaged survivors of the Florida shooting, who are crying out for justice.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I wonder why some Americans don't apply that thinking to proper gun control and gun safety.
Because they have an inalienable right, written in stone by the finger of God in the Garden of Eden, immutable and eternal, without any exclusions and get out clauses.
The Constitutional Right to Slaughter Innocents.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It's a cop-out to blame the shooting on mental illness alone, to the exclusion of the profusion of guns, but I think there's a good case to be made for that type of person receiving mental health treatment sooner, at least here in France. Cruz could very likely have been sectioned given how many call-outs there apparently were to his house.
Both issues - gun control and mental health provision - are tied up with populations' perception of the role of the state. I get the feeling the French are much more in favour of state mental health provision due to that perception than Americans.
How is that tweet any evidence of mental illness?
I mean, the first problem is it doesn’t even tell you how many of those calls were about HIM.
[ 16. February 2018, 20:31: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It's a cop-out to blame the shooting on mental illness alone,
It isn’t a cop-out, but a red herring, hypocritical and irrelevant. Yes, laws should not allow dangerously disturbed people to have guns. But that will miss most shooters and the NRA and their puppets have fought against excluding them so pretending they give a shit is ludicrous.
Kudos on those tweeting the hypocrisy of these bell-ends, but the bastards voting records should be on a massive scroll just below everything they say.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
300 million guns legally in circulation presents the USA with a unique challenge. orfeo and I joined forces with others in a previous thread, presenting the global evidence of comparative homicide rates, pointing to evidence of risk arising from possession and carrying of guns.
But it actually very difficult for the USA to move from the current unique risk factors to a safer environment. Sure, the successful lobbying by the NRA makes it even more difficult, but it would still be a very difficult journey if there were no NRA.
[ 16. February 2018, 21:18: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Anyone who thinks that the solution to the American gun problem will be simple or quick doesn’t know Americans.
The majority of Americans support gun control. In general terms. In specific terms, it gets more fuzzy.
Most will acknowledge some sort of control is necessary, a minority support a complete ban and the gap between is a minefield.
One major problem is that the most effective strategy would be the very one the paranoid fear most. A gradual lessening.
[ 16. February 2018, 21:35: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
300 million guns legally in circulation presents the USA with a unique challenge. orfeo and I joined forces with others in a previous thread, presenting the global evidence of comparative homicide rates, pointing to evidence of risk arising from possession and carrying of guns.
Americans who have an opinion on gun control divide pretty neatly into two camps: those who know all the evidence and don't need to be scolded about it (not saying you yourself are scolding), and those who either don't believe it, or don't care (mostly both). Too often these threads devolve into non-Americans wagging their fingers and telling us we're all a bunch of evil murderers because we haven't solved this problem yet. Which is enraging.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
My experience with Americans is that it isn't that simple.
And that the divisions a more varied, especially in the What To Do dept.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Too often these threads devolve into non-Americans wagging their fingers and telling us we're all a bunch of evil murderers because we haven't solved this problem yet. Which is enraging.
No, we don't think that.
We think it's inexplicable that you haven't solved this problem yet, given that solving the problem elsewhere has several international precedents that have worked. So generally, we're just utterly perplexed.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Too often these threads devolve into non-Americans wagging their fingers and telling us we're all a bunch of evil murderers because we haven't solved this problem yet. Which is enraging.
No, we don't think that.
We think it's inexplicable that you haven't solved this problem yet, given that solving the problem elsewhere has several international precedents that have worked. So generally, we're just utterly perplexed.
And not all Americans find the global response enraging. Most of us are just as perplexed as Doc Tor-- but probably with a higher ratio of quiet desperation mixed in
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
And not all Americans find the global response enraging. Most of us are just as perplexed as Doc Tor--
Seriously? The gun is tied into the mythos of freedom in America. The lack of trust in government is much more pervasive than in Europe, despite having much less reason. 153 years of pushing the concept of brown people are dangerous and ready to take over. The media constantly pushing stories of danger even when crime rates are falling.
I understand the despair, not not the confusion.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Ronald Reagan[/URL] told the people of the USA that the federal government was the enemy, and they swallowed it, hook, line and sinker.
"Swallowed," as if it were a lie? But it isn't, is it? Republicans have made the statement true: Vast transfers of wealth from the poor and middle class to corporations and billionaires; cuts to social safety nets; denial of health care to all but the well-off; weapons policies that result in the routine slaughter of ordinary citizens and their children. How is the federal government not the enemy here?
Republican politicians and their various financiers are the enemy (soft enemy). So are the people who advocate for small Government (soft enemy, like factional foes in a joint enterprise). The machinery of Government, the institutions and people who do the day to day stuff are our friends, and by 'our' I mean people of moderate means and poor people. The aim of politics in this age of gross inequity is to pump as much money as possible from the private sector into the public sector to aviod the development of a corporate distopia, sort of like Bladerunner. Warning: Don't re-watch Bladerunner. Be happy with your distorted memories.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Don't re-watch Bladerunner. Be happy with your distorted memories.
Bladerunner is brilliant! Though the new one is a better construct in terms of filmmaking. But it would not stand on its own, so doesn't have the same brilliance.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The three teachers who died to save their students. May their names be written in the book of life, and may their Savior pronounce them to be good and faithful servants.
Here in the DC area there is a misguided movement by the GOP to rename Gravelly Point (a spit of land on the Potomac River) after Nancy Reagan. No one knows why. (It's not like they don't have more important legislative tasks.) One of these men would be a better choice.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
300 million guns legally in circulation presents the USA with a unique challenge. orfeo and I joined forces with others in a previous thread, presenting the global evidence of comparative homicide rates, pointing to evidence of risk arising from possession and carrying of guns.
Americans who have an opinion on gun control divide pretty neatly into two camps: those who know all the evidence and don't need to be scolded about it (not saying you yourself are scolding), and those who either don't believe it, or don't care (mostly both). Too often these threads devolve into non-Americans wagging their fingers and telling us we're all a bunch of evil murderers because we haven't solved this problem yet. Which is enraging.
The only person I've wagged my finger at on this thread is not American. But thank you for your meaningful contribution.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Meanwhile, I've just read about a proposal for a mass walk-out of school students on April 20, refusing to attend unless the law is changed because going to school is too unsafe.
Will be interesting to see what sort of traction there is.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Too often these threads devolve into non-Americans wagging their fingers and telling us we're all a bunch of evil murderers because we haven't solved this problem yet. Which is enraging.
No, we don't think that.
We think it's inexplicable that you haven't solved this problem yet, given that solving the problem elsewhere has several international precedents that have worked. So generally, we're just utterly perplexed.
I'm not in the mood to fight over this. (Well, I could refocus some anger here, but not now.)
But a couple of thoughts:
--MT is right. People have said that sort of thing over and over. That's why this thread, basically. If you need a refresher, go back to pg. 7 of this thread.
--We American Shipmates have posted the whys and wherefores of American mythology. Some people did begin to understand that.
--From what's been said on this thread and in Purg, much of the problem is that non-American Shipmates have a certain image of America, and they don't like finding out that much of it isn't accurate. (One Purg non-American poster explained it as "America is aspirational".)
--I think most Americans would prefer any change to be done legally and non-violently. That rules out many possible approaches...but it's the only way to go.
{Back to a lazy Fri. night of Olympics and ice cream.}
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Too often these threads devolve into non-Americans wagging their fingers and telling us we're all a bunch of evil murderers because we haven't solved this problem yet. Which is enraging.
No, we don't think that.
We think it's inexplicable that you haven't solved this problem yet, given that solving the problem elsewhere has several international precedents that have worked. So generally, we're just utterly perplexed.
I'm not in the mood to fight over this. (Well, I could refocus some anger here, but not now.)
But a couple of thoughts:
--MT is right. People have said that sort of thing over and over. That's why this thread, basically. If you need a refresher, go back to pg. 7 of this thread.
--We American Shipmates have posted the whys and wherefores of American mythology. Some people did begin to understand that.
--From what's been said on this thread and in Purg, much of the problem is that non-American Shipmates have a certain image of America, and they don't like finding out that much of it isn't accurate. (One Purg non-American poster explained it as "America is aspirational".)[/i]
Perhaps you and Doc Tor could refrain from speaking for all American Shipmates and just speak for yourselves. In-group stereotyping is no less annoying than out-group stereotyping.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--I think most Americans would prefer any change to be done legally and non-violently. That rules out many possible approaches...but it's the only way to go.
Wait... was someone here advocating we accomplish gun control thru violent means? I must have missed that...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
cliffdweller--
Respectfully:
I said that American Shipmates had explained American mythology. Many have, on various threads. Perhaps I should have said "many".
That's the only possible in-group stereotype I can see.
As to "legal and non-violent":
It's come up on both this thread and in Purg. Non-Americans have been beside themselves in worry, grief, and anger, but often showed mostly anger. Insisted that we find some way to fix things, and "what's wrong with you?", etc. I think some general allusions to violence have been mentioned--sounding serious, but maybe just frustration. When I said, on at least a couple of occasions, "What can we do that's legal, non-violent, and ethical--and I might be willing to bend on the ethical", people have generally backed off, IIRC.
ETA: The "legal and non-violent" has been mostly in response to demands that we change the gov't, at all costs. I think there may have been a couple of suggestions to go after gun owners, one way or another--which would cause a civil war.
[ 17. February 2018, 05:08: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yes, Congress has this little trick/scam of hiding a controversial item in a long, dense bill. Congressfolk often don't read the bills in their entirety, or at all. Some rely on staff to do that.
But it's a way to sneak something past their opponents, and both sides do it.
I've got mixed feelings about that: I'd greatly prefer to have things done clearly, cleanly, and openly. However, that would require functioning, ethical adults who care more about other Americans than they do about their stature or pockets.
OTOH, if that's the only way to get a good item through...
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Alan--
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I wonder why some Americans don't apply that thinking to proper gun control and gun safety.
Because they have an inalienable right, written in stone by the finger of God in the Garden of Eden, immutable and eternal, without any exclusions and get out clauses.
You've got the gist. Add in Manifest Destiny crap, pioneer history/mythology, and fear/ distrust/ hatred of authority; stir AND shake; and serve it with frothy fear and arrogance on top.
Yum.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I said that American Shipmates had explained American mythology.
As a non-American can I just state that what has come across has been descriptions (rather than necessarily explanations - a mythology is an explanation of actions and beliefs rather than something that needs explanation in itself) of a range of mythologies. The mythologies of America are no more monolithic than the people of America, which since there's such a wide range of beliefs is as it should be (the same, of course, is true of any other large national group).
quote:
I think some general allusions to violence have been mentioned--sounding serious, but maybe just frustration.
I have no recollection at all of anyone, anywhere, on the Ship advocating violence to "do something" about guns in the US. Since the problem is violence by people with guns, more violence is more of the same not a solution. I am aware of people elsewhere who have said that forceful confiscation of guns will be needed, which will be violent - but most of the people I've seen say that have been on the "I'll use my guns to defend my guns if you come to take them from me" side of the fence. Of course, there are some people who would consider collecting taxation to be a form of violence (it is, after all, backed by threats of arrest and imprisonment if you don't pay).
quote:
When I said, on at least a couple of occasions, "What can we do that's legal, non-violent, and ethical--and I might be willing to bend on the ethical", people have generally backed off, IIRC.
There have been many, many suggestions - a lot of them from Americans. Who has backed off? During the course of this thread (and other discussions elsewhere) I've heard suggestions of mass rallies and demonstrations, writing to representatives, naming and shaming those representatives who've received NRA blood money. I've heard a lot about challenging the mythology of the "good guy with a gun" (which is, ultimately, the only basis the NRA has for opposing any form of gun control - it will limit the ability of good guys to have guns when needed to defend themselves or others), and redemptive violence more generally (which isn't a uniquely American problem). I can't recall if it was here or on FB, but I've seen a campaign to name and shame the relatively small number of gunshops from which the majority of guns used in crimes were originally purchased. I've seen a lot of people say that the majority of Americans support some form of gun-control, that for the majority the right for anyone to own any gun they can afford to buy is not a given. The UKs gun-control legislation following Hungerford and Dunblane were the result of democratic pressure from the majority of people here that the right to own guns was too much of a danger to others, join and mobilise that majority to make things change. And, that's just what's been suggested that I can remember off the top of my head.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
The anti gun movement needs a slogan, something like....
Guns don't kill people they infect the brains of shooters
Set a wave on motion of 'this cannot continue'. And consign the current crazy gun laws to history.
Legislation which put modest guns in lock-ups for the day when invaders arrive on US shores, or some other cataclysm which might create anarchy, and that's it. The bad days are over.
Easy to say from this side of the pond, and might only be possible in a parallel universe.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Perhaps you and Doc Tor could refrain from speaking for all American Shipmates and just speak for yourselves.
Well done for reading for comprehension.
I was explicitly speaking for non-Americans.
But don't let that get in the way of ... whatever it is you're planning/not planning to do about your national obsession. You have my thoughts and prayers.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Guns don't kill people they infect the brains of shooters
Guns don't protect people; people protect people.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
On allusions to violence, I think I might have tossed off the odd suggestion about disarming the right, but I had detention facilities and re-education camps in mind, just so they could have the satisfaction of being right.
It seems to me obvious that the USA is in a unique position concerning guns and gun control, and a gradual approach, one small step at a time, is warranted. However, writing that is in no way satisfactory on an emotional level if you are feeling upset. It does help with the self-satisfied smugness.
If I say stupid things, often its because I'm being stupid, and sometimes its because I'm angry, and sometimes its because I'm being deliberately silly. I hardly know which applies in the moment.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Guns don't protect people; people protect people.
I want that on a bumper sticker!
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I like the Non-American input because it helps to see it all from an outside perspective.
Why is America failing to fix this? Because inside America we have a huge powerful cult. Just like religious cults, the people inside are brainwashed, they turn to their leaders (in this case the NRA) for their facts and they believe the people outside the cult are only interested in attacking them with false ideas.
They have made the 2nd Amendment their Bible and they believe their interpretation is inerrant.
They fear the people who want to take their guns. If we succeed, they will have to give up the one thing that makes them feel safe, manly, and in control. If they have a social life at all it revolves around gun club meetings and target practice.
Like the fundamentalist who day-dreams about the rapture when all the nay-sayers are left behind, these NRA cult members dream of the day someone like Nikolas Cruz comes to their church, school or McDonalds and they are the hero who is armed and ready to save us all.
They are literally ready to die for this cult with their gun in their cold dead hands. That's what we're up against.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Indeed.
How on earth can (some of) the gun-god worshippers call themselves 'christians', though?
Perhaps there's enough slaying and smiting in the Bible to justify it.... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
Great summary, Twilight, plus I think there's one more factor: the "right" bit.
It would be interesting to discover to what extent US citizens -- especially gun-owners -- understand and also exercise non-2nd Amendment rights, and to what extent they feel empowered by such exercise.
Take into consideration the sheer volume of citizens who do not vote, even in Presidential elections. Some of these folks may be prevented from voting (suppression, inability due to location and/or timing of elections, etc.); some may find voting pointless (opposition voters in gerrymandered districts, etc.). Whatever the reason, it appears that a significant proportion of US voters either cannot exercise this right, or do not do so because they take no satisfaction or sense of empowerment from exercising this right -- and voting is a pretty basic right.
Then we come to free speech rights. How many exercise these in any meaningful way -- especially now, when speech has been re-defined as "money?" I'm no doubt biased by my work as a teacher of writing and literature in a small community college, but the levels of reading comprehension and the abilities of 1st-year students to express quite basic ideas in their one-and-only language are deeply discouraging.
I could go on, but you get the idea. The ability to buy a gun is so tangible and immediate. Owning and storing and caring for a gun is such a concrete expression of a "right." The ability to spout off pre-digested NRA slogans in defense of one's gun-ownership is so simple, direct, and uncomplicated.
While there are no doubt gun-owners who are also intelligent, thoughtful citizens, and who engage with their other rights in ways they find empowering and meaningful, I suspect that this particular right stands alone in its ability to help those who exercise it feel empowered, and like real participants in this democracy. For far too many US citizens, owning a weapon appears to be the only "power" they feel they can actually possess and exercise.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And it came to me, this morning. I can name you that cult. Who is it, who demands regular child sacrifice? The rabid gun nuts are worshiping Moloch. Where is the prophet who will step up and denounce the false god?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Here's one.
Well, maybe - though perhaps a little obliquely, and (I guess) from the 'right'.
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
How many times did Bill Murray relive Ground Hog Day in the movie?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
I'm going to speak up for a third group of Americans: The ones who have shaken the dust from their sandals for this and so many other reasons and are never, ever, ever returning to the USA. Come to Canada. Yes, we have crazy murderous racist farmers with Soviet-era weapons, but we don't have machine guns in our schools, movie theatres or nightclubs. Or baseball games. Or outdoor concerts. Or wherever the next watering of the tree of liberty with the blood of innocent Americans occurs.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
To UK Shipmates:
Someone told me that the right to bear arms is rooted in English common law, yet the UK is able to have strong gun control measures, my guess is part of the reason is the UK's lack of a written constitution.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
To UK Shipmates:
Someone told me that the right to bear arms is rooted in English common law, yet the UK is able to have strong gun control measures, my guess is part of the reason is the UK's lack of a written constitution.
American Law is rooted in English common law because the colonies were English. The whole militia training and arming thing was rooted in the English right to self-protect and in not having to use professional troops to oppress slaves and natives.
Several of the first state constitutions mentioned militias, but most explicitly stated a subordination to civil authority. Most spoke of "common defence". Some did include personal defence, but this was also in the era of wilderness and no professional police.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
To UK Shipmates:
Someone told me that the right to bear arms is rooted in English common law, yet the UK is able to have strong gun control measures, my guess is part of the reason is the UK's lack of a written constitution.
UK common law is an ever changing thing. But, originated with Alfred the Great who (relevant here) created an obligation for everyone to turn out to defend the realm when needed (specifically to repel Viking raids) which the Normans continued to maintain. Clearly, without other provision, that would mean everyone would need to have access to weapons and the training to use them. The 1689 Bill of Rights restated that right for Protestants to bear arms to defend the realm against Catholics and external threat. And, of course, that Bill of Rights wa something that the founders of the US built on.
English common law was very similar to many 18th and 19th century constitutions - it included the obligations of all Englishmen, when needed, to take up arms in defence of the nation (often used to suppress internal strife as well as repel invaders) which required a right to bear arms. Of all those constitutions, 200 or so, only 3 retain a right to bear arms today - and 2 of those are still worded explicitly in relation to national defence.
A potentially useful summary
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Oh. Wow.
Rabbi Joe Black - ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There are lots of issues.
Ease of access to guns
'The Game' - saysay is right about that for some cities at least
The doctrinaire block on information gathering as part of ongoing powerful lobbying
The undoubted truth that self defence issues look different in a society awash with guns
The second amendment
The impact of certain elements of the media
The hearts and minds convictions of a lot of people
As a wise person once said, 'I really wouldn't want to start from here'.
The lack of political consensus is hardly surprising.
I said this on p7 of the thread. Still works for me. Wish it didn't.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Some good citizen in Mississippi saw a YouTube post by the Florida shooter, last September, in which he was promising to become a professional school shooter. The alert citizen did what the president thinks we should all do and reported this red flag to the FBI. From the FBI's own account during today's press conference it sounds like they did a much more intensive background check and personal grilling on the Mississippi citizen then they did on the man who was making threats online.
Even worse...
Tough times for the Bureau.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I wonder just how many tips they receive every day, and how they are supposed to check them out?
One of the issues we face as consumers of news is that we never know how many of these events are stopped in advance by good and timely use of information.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
America. It ain't Kansas Toto.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Of all those constitutions, 200 or so, only 3 retain a right to bear arms today - and 2 of those are still worded explicitly in relation to national defence.
A potentially useful summary
For a very long time the US 2nd Amendment was not interpreted how it is now. The idea that it's some kind of individual right to bear arms is a recent notion, and the Supreme Court didn't support it until 2008.
This article is a good description of the history.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
(Declaration: I am not American and as such I hesitate to stick my nose in where it don't belong...)
Whilst I (bearing in mind my declaration above) think that it is perfectly valid to question the interpretation of the Second Amendment and even to ask whether, in the 21st century, it should be dropped, let us suppose for a moment that the Second Amendment should remain and DOES give the right to any citizen of the US to have a rifle.
But what kind of rifle does the Amendment give the right to? At the time of the Amendment, the main weapon available to the populace was this:
Here's what firearms looked like when the Founding Fathers wrote the Second Amendment
So can we not say that every US citizen has the absolute right to possess a musket that can, if someone trains really hard, fire 4 rounds a minute? I'm pretty sure that if someone tried to go on a killing spree with one of those, even if they managed to kill someone with their first shot (bearing in mind their notorious lack of accuracy), by the time they had taken 15-20 seconds to reload, that would have given anyone in the vicinity the time to disarm them and kick 101 shades of shit out of them.
Or have I missed something?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Mostly, you've missed some principles of legal interpretation that discourage rewriting "the right to bear arms" as "the right to bear muskets". Especially when it comes to constitutions, the general view is that it's not supposed to preserve society in amber.
And a good thing too, otherwise same sex marriage wouldn't be counted as "marriage" (to pick a recent Australian example).
[ 17. February 2018, 23:59: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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