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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fucking Guns
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Mostly, you've missed some principles of legal interpretation that discourage rewriting "the right to bear arms" as "the right to bear muskets". Especially when it comes to constitutions, the general view is that it's not supposed to preserve society in amber.
And a good thing too, otherwise same sex marriage wouldn't be counted as "marriage" (to pick a recent Australian example).
But it si a valid point that the founding fathers likely did not envision what modern interpretation has become. And preserve in amber is exactly what 2nd amendmenteers think they are doing.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Mostly, you've missed some principles of legal interpretation that discourage rewriting "the right to bear arms" as "the right to bear muskets". Especially when it comes to constitutions, the general view is that it's not supposed to preserve society in amber.
And a good thing too, otherwise same sex marriage wouldn't be counted as "marriage" (to pick a recent Australian example).
But it si a valid point that the founding fathers likely did not envision what modern interpretation has become. And preserve in amber is exactly what 2nd amendmenteers think they are doing.
This is all entirely true.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
A free and detailed analysis of how the NRA spends its money. They've dropped hundreds of millions on influencing policy.
And, the Episcopal bishop of the diocese of Central Florida writes a letter to Senator Marco Rubio. Frankly, IMO the bishop needs a bigger vocabulary. Nowhere do I see the apposite term 'spineless' which can always be applied to Rubio, nor the entirely factual "would fellate a Park policeman's horse in the middle of Pennsylvania Avenue if the NRA waved the dollars."
[ 18. February 2018, 01:38: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
Politically the pendulum has swung such that any legislation restricting the purchase of firearms is almost irrelevant to the discussion for at least a decade.
The only potentially productive paths forward for the foreseeable future are related to culture, health care, law enforcement, and relational data integration.
Everyone was aware of this kid in Florida.
His contemporaries, school administrators, local and federal law enforcement.
His schoolmates admit openly that they expected it, talked about it. The police had been to his house on average every two months for the last five years. The FBI received a tip from a person familiar with the piece of shit on January 5th of this year that he was erratic, owned a gun, and was a potential school shooter! They never even forwarded that information to the regional field office.
Do any of us believe that were it not for the existence of guns there wouldn't have been an issue here? That if only a particular utensil had been unavailable to the sociopath it would have been better because he could have only gotten a fraction of the victims with a bat, or a hammer, or knives or explosives thereby reducing the statistical likelihood of one of the victims being ours?
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The Episcopal bishop of the diocese of Central Florida writes a letter to Senator Marco Rubio. Frankly, IMO the bishop needs a bigger vocabulary.
And a better grammar manual:
quote:
But as a senator I implore you to go to Jesus for wisdom about Parkland.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Do any of us believe that were it not for the existence of guns there wouldn't have been an issue here?
Actually, yes. There is a reason that the gun, not the knife or heavy stick, is called an equalizer. The easy power a gun has is a completely different ballgame than lesser weapons. The fantasy that is fed by the gun is different to the knife.
Whilst it is impossible to know exactly what this individual would do, guns not only make killing easier, they facilitate the thought of it.
But, as I have said before, mass killings are statically irrelevant.
People kill far more people, one or two at a time, by gun than anything else. Killing more than one person with a knife is not that difficult, even if they do not die as quickly, so why do you suppose that is?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Do any of us believe that were it not for the existence of guns there wouldn't have been an issue here?
Actually, yes.
Anyone who's been here longer than 60 seconds knows you have shit for brains anyway so, no big surprise there.
I'll put you down for "less is more", got it.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Alan--
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I said that American Shipmates had explained American mythology.
As a non-American can I just state that what has come across has been descriptions (rather than necessarily explanations - a mythology is an explanation of actions and beliefs rather than something that needs explanation in itself) of a range of mythologies. The mythologies of America are no more monolithic than the people of America, which since there's such a wide range of beliefs is as it should be (the same, of course, is true of any other large national group).
I tend to think of mythology as deep stories that help you live.
IMHO, we *DO* have one overall American myth, with variations. I've periodically posted it, when we get to this point in a discussion.
This links to the "America First! Who's Second?" thread from a year ago.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
We periodically have a manifest destiny discussion. I went looking for one of my archived posts, which is below. It's from the "Neigh, Horseman Bree" thread, now in Oblivion. Other relevant posts by others are on that page, too.
quote:
Manifest destiny is basically "we're here, we won, so it's manifestly true that God destined it--YAYYYYYYY us".
Back in 2013, we had a thread called "Will there ever be effective gun control in the USA?". We got into the same sort of conversation, and I posted this:
quote:
As various of us Americans have pointed out on various related threads, American mythology is a large chunk of the problem. There are variations, but IMHO the main theme is something like this:
{Note: I DO NOT ENDORSE THIS!!!}
Our European ancestors were facing trials, tribulations, and persecutions back there. They couldn't follow their God-given faith. (Christianity, of course--nothing else counts.) So these Pilgrims bravely sailed to the New World, guided by the Manifest Destiny that God prepared for them. (Light to the world, etc.)
They bravely built settlements. They met and mingled with the local savages, who initially helped the Pilgrims learn how to live on this continent. But there was a falling out: the Indians didn't want to accept our clearly superior ways, nor acknowledge that God Had Given US This Place To Tame. So we fought them, which was unfortunate; but they clearly had it coming, because they weren't following God's will. Darn it, we tried to help the survivors out with education. We even gave them land to live on. We couldn't have been any fairer than that.
We civilized this country, with guns, determination, and grit, pushing ever westward. We cleared the land, and made it useful. We were pioneers. A man could work hard, get his own land, build a house with his own hands (and, sometimes, help from the neighbors). He had a God-given right to protect it from varmints, thieves, Injuns, and meddling governments. No one has the right to interfere with that--ever.
We're still pioneers. We're still manifestly destined. We lead the world in democracy, innovation, and military strength. We won't start a war (unless it's in our best interests); but, by gum, we will finish anyone who brings war to us.
May God bless and keep the United States of America, and may we always kick the asses of anyone who gets in our God-given way.
Does that make the situation a little clearer??
[ 18. February 2018, 03:21: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Do any of us believe that ... it would have been better because he could have only gotten a fraction of the victims...
Ummmm, YES.
You.
Fucking.
Asshole.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
romanlion
The last set of statistics I've seen for the UK (year ended March 2016) showed 577 homicides from all causes, and 26 homicides by gun. Homicide by gun is very rare in the UK, less than 1 per million over the years. Homicide from all causes is less than 10 per million. Although there are variations, the UK picture is quite typical of Western European countries. The only example of mass killing by gun in a school in the UK occurred in 1996 in Dunblane, when the murderer killed 16 pupils and 1 teacher.
The annual homicide by gun rate in the US was reported by the NY Times in June 2016 to be about 33 per million, or on average 27 per day. Total homicides per annum in the US are running at about 17000 per annum according to the FBI, or about 50 per million.
The population of the US is about 5 times that of the UK.
The statistics show that a US citizen is about 5 times more likely to be murdered than a UK citizen, and more than 50 times more likely to be murdered by a gun than a UK citizen.
These are startling differences.
I agree with you that a violent disturbed human being deprived of access to firearms might very well find some other way of achieving his murderous intention. But I think it is impossible to deny from the comparative statistics that the frequency of murders and mass murders is increased by the ease of access to guns.
Does that opinion make me a person with shit for brains.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Do any of us believe that ... it would have been better because he could have only gotten a fraction of the victims...
Ummmm, YES.
You.
Fucking.
Asshole.
Like anyone sees a post with a big red maple leaf at the top and gives a shit about the text below, you fucking blight...
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
]Anyone who's been here longer than 60 seconds knows you have shit for brains anyway so, no big surprise there.
I'll put you down for "less is more", got it.
You cannot actually spark two brain cells to connect and actually defend your pitiful post so you resort to insult. Jesus but you are a tiresome, boring and worthless bellend aren't you?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
]Anyone who's been here longer than 60 seconds knows you have shit for brains anyway so, no big surprise there.
I'll put you down for "less is more", got it.
You cannot actually spark two brain cells to connect and actually defend your pitiful post so you resort to insult. Jesus but you are a tiresome, boring and worthless bellend aren't you?
Did you read that at all before posting?
Never mind the fucked up code.
If you admit to being drunk right now I won't judge you about it. I understand...
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
romanlion
The last set of statistics I've seen for the UK (year ended March 2016) showed 577 homicides from all causes, and 26 homicides by gun. Homicide by gun is very rare in the UK, less than 1 per million over the years. Homicide from all causes is less than 10 per million. Although there are variations, the UK picture is quite typical of Western European countries. The only example of mass killing by gun in a school in the UK occurred in 1996 in Dunblane, when the murderer killed 16 pupils and 1 teacher.
The annual homicide by gun rate in the US was reported by the NY Times in June 2016 to be about 33 per million, or on average 27 per day. Total homicides per annum in the US are running at about 17000 per annum according to the FBI, or about 50 per million.
The population of the US is about 5 times that of the UK.
The statistics show that a US citizen is about 5 times more likely to be murdered than a UK citizen, and more than 50 times more likely to be murdered by a gun than a UK citizen.
These are startling differences.
I agree with you that a violent disturbed human being deprived of access to firearms might very well find some other way of achieving his murderous intention. But I think it is impossible to deny from the comparative statistics that the frequency of murders and mass murders is increased by the ease of access to guns.
Does that opinion make me a person with shit for brains.
Not at all, but are you saying the world would've been a better place had we just stuck with the crown?
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
No. The break with the crown and the establishment of an independent USA were good and necessary. I'm not proud of the UK's colonial history.
I think you might have done better to stick to the original intention of the Second Amendment, but that's water under the bridge now. I recognise the impossibility for the USA of moving to the tightly regulated ownership and use of guns which is in place in the UK, unless there is a massive cultural and political shift.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Do any of us believe that were it not for the existence of guns there wouldn't have been an issue here?
Actually, yes.
Anyone who's been here longer than 60 seconds knows you have shit for brains anyway so, no big surprise there.
I'll put you down for "less is more", got it.
Why not go the whole hog? If you're going to insist that guns aren't the problem, allow the sale of high explosives, artillery, and ricin.
After all, what's the difference between killing with a knife and taking out the sports hall with a HEAT round?
Or are you some kind of unAmerican traitor?
[ 18. February 2018, 07:46: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Do any of us believe that were it not for the existence of guns there wouldn't have been an issue here? That if only a particular utensil had been unavailable to the sociopath it would have been better because he could have only gotten a fraction of the victims with a bat, or a hammer, or knives
If this individual, and all the other individuals like him over recent years, didn't have easy access to guns then the issues wouldn't have been the same. That's obvious to everyone. A gun allows someone to inflict death and injury from a distance (whether that's from an upper floor of a hotel shooting into a concert crowd, or shooting through doors and windows, and even walls). With a knife or club they'd need to get right next to their victims, a closed door becomes a barrier to get through. Also a gun is much more lethal, it's not that easy to kill with a knife or club - you need physical strength and knowledge of where to strike (not that life changing injuries are that much better).
I'm sure any normal person (ie: someone other than you) would be delighted if the US culture changed such that any incident with a knife in a school became national news, a cause to reopen discussion about whether there were ways of helping disturbed youngsters using household utensils to cut people rather than vegetables. Rather than the insanity where many times kids get shot at schools and it doesn't get beyond the local press.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm not a fan of Westerns, but it is hard to escape the conclusion from US movies that guns (or lethal assualt) are the ultimate solution to everything at the hands of the good guys, an ultimate solution that extends to extrajudicial killing as praiseworthy, heroic even.
We need better stories. It's something that has been preying on my mind for a while, but the number of narratives that rely on the 'good' physically overcoming the 'bad' is pretty overwhelming, and it's often very difficult to think of a different denouement - one that will satisfy both editors and readers.
I think the so-called revisionist western was in part a reply to gung-ho westerns of the past. In fact, Unforgiven would probably be termed revisionist, although the solutions are still found at the point of a gun. An early revisionist film is The Ox-Bow Incident, which shows the perils of rushing to judgment (two men wrongly hung for cattle-rustling).
However, one can still criticize this sub-genre as retaining many elements, e.g. lots of patriarchal stuff. However, there are of course, revisions of this, gay westerns, or westerns with female leading parts.
I don't know if it's an exhausted genre or not. Every time it's written off, it bounces back. Personal note, I'm a fan.
Various:
--Yes, Westerns usually push the idea that guns and violence are the ultimate way to have the power to end a bad situation. There's also the idea that some locations might not have a sheriff--or even laws. If they do, the only judge they *might* have access to is a circuit-rider, who periodically follows a certain route and takes care of cases at each stop. I'm not sure how accurate that is. One common view of the Old West (or any pioneer area) is that people had to be prepared to protect themselves and their property, and to settle problems on their own.
Hence guns, and the attachment to them. That view says that guns are the way you save yourself, if you're the only one around--dark street, home invasion, car jacking, attempted rape, stalker, walking in on a crime (like the convenience store robbery I mentioned earlier on the thread), mugging, etc.
--I like some Westerns, too. I grew up when there were *lots* of them on TV. Some local retro stations run lots of them.
I saw a new-to-me one yesterday--the film "Purgatory". Outlaws stumble into the town of Refuge, where things are not necessarily what they seem, and residents are there for a reason. It's amazingly good.
The film "Angel and the Badman" is one way to think through the gun question. A gunman (John Wayne) is sick/injured, and is rescued by a Quaker family. Really, really good.
"Briscoe County Jr." was a quirky, fascinating, and short-lived Western series. The theme song has been used for sports TV programs.
And, of course, there's "The Wild, Wild West" (the original TV series), which is a sci-fi Western. Sometimes sexist, but otherwise good.
--And yes, we do need different stories.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Good points DT.
As for British Colonialism being to blame for spree killings, random shooters, right-wing fuckwits and a World Superpower that allows its population easy access to lethal weapons? Can we not just get over this?
History is fucking history, it’s a done deal. Blame Napoleon, Blame Ghengis Khan, the Roman Empire, Adam and Eve. Blame who like, it will not escape the fact that this is a here and now problem for America. Write out a new law today it will begin to rectify a patently ridiculous situation starting from tomorrow .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Politically the pendulum has swung such that any legislation restricting the purchase of firearms is almost irrelevant to the discussion for at least a decade.
The only potentially productive paths forward for the foreseeable future are related to culture, health care, law enforcement, and relational data integration.
Everyone was aware of this kid in Florida.
His contemporaries, school administrators, local and federal law enforcement.
His schoolmates admit openly that they expected it, talked about it. The police had been to his house on average every two months for the last five years. The FBI received a tip from a person familiar with the piece of shit on January 5th of this year that he was erratic, owned a gun, and was a potential school shooter! They never even forwarded that information to the regional field office.
Do any of us believe that were it not for the existence of guns there wouldn't have been an issue here? That if only a particular utensil had been unavailable to the sociopath it would have been better because he could have only gotten a fraction of the victims with a bat, or a hammer, or knives or explosives thereby reducing the statistical likelihood of one of the victims being ours?
Faeces calling the dung shit surely Darling? Just wait till you get home!
And the solution is BIGGER MORE INTRUSIVE GOVERNMENT?! Give everyone a tactical nuke I say. Wired to their pulse.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
romanlion
The last set of statistics I've seen for the UK (year ended March 2016) showed 577 homicides from all causes, and 26 homicides by gun. <snip>
Does that opinion make me a person with shit for brains.
Not at all, but are you saying the world would've been a better place had we just stuck with the crown?
It's fairly clear that what Barnabas62 is saying is that a nation which has tight controls on personal fire-arm ownership has fewer bodies in coffins at the end of the day, compared to a nation which doesn't.
The point that a really determined psychopath could always get their hands on a weapon regardless of gun controls is perfectly fair. And one does wonder how the FBI were unable to trace, as they claim, the potential shooter when his posts were flagged up.
But there's no denying that ease of access, including legitimate ease of access, to deadly fire-power is a hugely significant - and yet potentially redeemable - factor in why there are so many Americans being murdered in this way, compared, proportionally, to other countries. This isn't a bad thing to draw people's attention to, surely.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
and lets not forget that in October last year a bloke killed 58 people and injured 851 people from a 32nd floor window in 10 minutes. That's not happening if he's armed with a crossbow or knife, or even if he had the sort of weapon most people would use to go hunting. Source
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Wow
Well done those children. Let this indeed be a turning point.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Killing people with guns has to be good for business. Business is the only thing. Nothing else makes sense.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Emma Gonzalez, a senior at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, made a speech that has given me hope that the next generation will actually make changes for us.
It's too long (about 12 minutes) to link here but it is well worth a listen.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Anselmina
One of the more remarkable comparators in the stats is that in the US, homicide by gun amounts to over 60% of total homicides. In the UK in 2015/6, the percentage was less than 5%. Over the years it fluctuates between 5 and 10%.
Another way of looking at that is that if you remove homicide by gun from both UK and US statistics, the US homicide rate is about twice the UK rate. Whereas with gun deaths included, the US rate is at least 5 times the UK rate.
Those figures really do emphasise the comparative risk factors. About 4 times as many US citizens are killed by guns every year as died from terrorism on 9/11.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Killing people with guns has to be good for business. Business is the only thing. Nothing else makes sense.
Yes. The NRA is funded mostly by gun manufacturers. Hence their rote response to each and every tragedy: more guns. If only those kids had been packing heat! What about the teachers, they should all have guns -- the state won't pay for their crayons and construction paper, but it ought to pay for their pistols. The gun manufacturers are full of joy every time a massacre occurs. They batten upon misery and grief, the priests of Moloch happily conducting the child sacrifice.
[ 18. February 2018, 14:23: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
romanlion
The last set of statistics I've seen for the UK (year ended March 2016) showed 577 homicides from all causes, and 26 homicides by gun. <snip>
Does that opinion make me a person with shit for brains.
Not at all, but are you saying the world would've been a better place had we just stuck with the crown?
It's fairly clear that what Barnabas62 is saying is that a nation which has tight controls on personal fire-arm ownership has fewer bodies in coffins at the end of the day, compared to a nation which doesn't.
Moaninlion's raison d etre is winding up lefties. Facts and reason are not relevant to him.
quote:
The point that a really determined psychopath could always get their hands on a weapon regardless of gun controls is perfectly fair. And one does wonder how the FBI were unable to trace, as they claim, the potential shooter when his posts were flagged up.
The FBI have released a statement acknowledging that protocol was not followed after they received a tip about the shooter.
The politicisation of that by the GOP is a smokescreen for the real problem. As is mental health.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Emma Gonzalez, a senior at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, made a speech that has given me hope that the next generation will actually make changes for us.
It's too long (about 12 minutes) to link here but it is well worth a listen.
There's no prohibition on the length of a link, though a note on the total running time/length of document is always welcome so that folk are aware of the investment they're being asked to make.
DT
HH
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by roman lion:
quote:
Do any of us believe that were it not for the existence of guns there wouldn't have been an issue here? That if only a particular utensil had been unavailable to the sociopath it would have been better because he could have only gotten a fraction of the victims with a bat, or a hammer, or knives or explosives thereby reducing the statistical likelihood of one of the victims being ours?
No, you great looby, it's not the existence of guns, it's the availability of guns. When I was much younger I walked home with a friend of mine who confessed, under the influence of a pint of cider, that his great fantasy was to go postal. I went home and slept my pint of cider off, because there was no way, in the United Kingdom, that he could have laid hands on a firearm. This was before the Dunblane massacre in 1996, which, by the way, was the last school shooting we've had. Yours is the last school shooting until, what, next Tuesday? If we were living in the US, I might well be dealing with the guilt of not having reported it to someone or whoever I reported it to, would be dealing with the guilt of having not been able to do anything about it, because talking bollocks about enacting a massacre, unlike a massacre itself, is not exactly an indictable offence. You can have adequate gun control or you can have the mass murder of innocents. You've made your choice, don't expect fucking validation as a bonus.
I think I've come to the conclusion that Americans who defend their gun laws are like Sub-saharan Africans defending FGM. Yes, we get it's your fucking culture, but it doesn't stop it being morally depraved. And yes, I also get, not all Sub-saharan Africans or, indeed, Americans. But next time Ryan or Trump or that piece of shit from the NRA turns up on the telly, remember he's basically the equivalent of some Imam from the Sahel telling us that taking a razor blade to his daughters lady bits is the best way to protect her chastity.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
A link to Emma Gonzales.
Like Twilight, it gave me hope. The facts are on the side of the passion.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The NRA is funded mostly by gun manufacturers.
And Winchester recently filed for bankruptcy. Let that sink in. Paranoid gun loonies buying tons of weapons against the day Obama (they still fear him) comes to take them away, and one of the US's largest and oldest manufacturers is going belly-up. How can that be? Can they have sold all the guns they can to the shrinking percent of the American population that owns guns? Saturated the paranoidi market, have they?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The FBI have released a statement acknowledging that protocol was not followed after they received a tip about the shooter. The politicisation of that by the GOP is a smokescreen for the real problem. As is mental health.
Yes. I can do no better than quote the excellent Ms Gonzales on this point. It is quite a long quote, but well worth reading.
quote:
And how about we stop blaming the victims for something that was the student's fault, the fault of the people who let him buy the guns in the first place, those at the gun shows, the people who encouraged him to buy accessories for his guns to make them fully automatic, the people who didn't take them away from him when they knew he expressed homicidal tendencies, and I am not talking about the FBI. I'm talking about the people he lived with. I'm talking about the neighbors who saw him outside holding guns.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Yes, because if there's one thing a neighbor should do, it's walk up to somebody with an AR-15 and tell him he needs to give it up. That's safe.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Killing people with guns has to be good for business. Business is the only thing. Nothing else makes sense.
Yes. The NRA is funded mostly by gun manufacturers.
What's your source for that? It's not supported by the Wikipedia article on the NRA.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
2012? 2013? Nobody has polled public opinion on the NRA in 5 years?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Yes. The NRA is funded mostly by gun manufacturers.
What's your source for that? It's not supported by the Wikipedia article on the NRA.
Indeed, this article confirms that the NRA is primarily funded by small donations from individuals. Hundreds of thousands of selfishly paranoid individuals.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Perhaps it's more accurate to say that the NRA supports gun manufacturers?
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
One thing about the FBI tip puzzles me. If you have a concern, why by-pass the local or state police? I'd have thought that contacting local police is what you would do, even if the threatened crime may come under Federal jurisdiction.
mousethief has a good point about risks to neighbour and family, but there's a lot of room between doing nothing and outright confrontation of an armed disturbed individual. No doubt there will be further information about any attempted preventative steps taken by neighbours and friends.
[ 18. February 2018, 20:50: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
I've been a Florida resident for over forty years. In that period of time, I've seen (state) mental health facilities disappear. If a person is Baker Acted, I believe the period of time they can be held in a treatment center is 72 hours. Not much can be done in that little period of time, IMO.
Even if the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooter had been diagnosed with mental illness, I doubt he would have been treated, or if going to outpatient treatment, would he have continued on his own?
Here is some information on the terrible state of mental illness treatment in Florida. I wish there was a way to eliminate the large picture at the top of the page I just linked to.
If assault weapons were eliminated, I think that would be a good step in the right direction. If all guns were strongly regulated, with comprehensive background checks, again, a step in the right direction.
If a person was bound and determined to kill people with weapons other than a gun, say, a knife or rock or rope, the victim(s) would have a fair chance of escaping, or of at least attempting to fight off the person trying to kill them.
A coward uses a weapon that can kill people from many feet away, with a bullet that can fly faster than they can move to avoid it. An evil coward can shoot someone without even looking at his or her face, with a weapon that can send multiple bullets tearing through multiple people in a short period of time.
I know that I'm preaching to the choir. Well, most of the choir.
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I have a gun nut friend who insists that every possible stricture we propose -- insurance, say, or licensing -- is impossible because it penalizes the innocent. I have argued that it is not penalizing that poor innocent little eight-year-old, to decree that he is too young to drive a car.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
By that logic, nobody should have to buy car insurance until after their first accident. After all, it's wrong to "penalize" the "innocent" by making them buy insurance. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
When it comes to gun owners and drivers, innocence is irrelevant. Everyone is a risk.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yes, because if there's one thing a neighbor should do, it's walk up to somebody with an AR-15 and tell him he needs to give it up. That's safe.
I agree. I love Gonzale's passionate speech, but don't agree with everything she says.
The local police probably already knew Nikolas Cruz was dangerous after being called to his mother's house many times, so there would be little point in the neighbor calling them. The family who took him in should be praised for their charity, not held responsible for what he did. They may not have known he had the gun. If they did know and kicked him out for having it, people would be saying they triggered his killing spree.
Anytime we start to blame friends, teachers and neighbors for not vigilantly watching the rest of us, we're in danger of losing much more important rights than the right to own a gun.
If we would simply ban guns we wouldn't have to worry about watching each other out the back window, reading our student's social media postings, or whether or not to send our children to the psychiatrist. Doctors wouldn't be put in the position of breaking their patient's trust. We wouldn't have to frighten our children with active shooter training or lock our church doors.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yes, because if there's one thing a neighbor should do, it's walk up to somebody with an AR-15 and tell him he needs to give it up. That's safe.
I agree. I love Gonzale's passionate speech, but don't agree with everything she says.
The local police probably already knew Nikolas Cruz was dangerous after being called to his mother's house many times, so there would be little point in the neighbor calling them. The family who took him in should be praised for their charity, not held responsible for what he did. They may not have known he had the gun.
I saw a news interview today -- think it was ABC News -- where these folks said they were gun-owners themselves, and required him to keep his AR-15 in a locked cabinet to which they believed they had the only key.
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
[QUOTE] Anytime we start to blame friends, teachers and neighbors for not vigilantly watching the rest of us, we're in danger of losing much more important rights than the right to own a gun.
This.
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
[QUOTE]If we would simply ban guns we wouldn't have to worry about watching each other out the back window, reading our student's social media postings, or whether or not to send our children to the psychiatrist. Doctors wouldn't be put in the position of breaking their patient's trust. We wouldn't have to frighten our children with active shooter training or lock our church doors.
Also this -- although I fear a bloody battle might have to be fought to accomplish this, with no guarantee the "banners" would win.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
If anyone tries to take away guns, by force or law, there will be violence.
Law would disturb even the people who store and handle their guns safely, but deeply believe in their right to have them.
Force--whether that's uniformed officers calmly knocking on doors in a low-key way, or storming in, or worse--would lead to a lot of violence. Think civil war--maybe not a formal one, with uniforms and such, but lots and lots of skirmishes. Pro private guns folks would be communicating and organizing online. Then there are the private militias, and all the other folks who are just waiting for something like this to heat up.
Law enforcement doesn't always proceed well or wisely. And if we have one more Ruby Ridge incident (Wikipedia)...
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The NRA is funded mostly by gun manufacturers.
And Winchester recently filed for bankruptcy. Let that sink in. Paranoid gun loonies buying tons of weapons against the day Obama (they still fear him) comes to take them away, and one of the US's largest and oldest manufacturers is going belly-up. How can that be? Can they have sold all the guns they can to the shrinking percent of the American population that owns guns? Saturated the paranoidi market, have they?
Maybe the ghost of Sarah Winchester got to them? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Possible major SPOILERS for the new Helen Mirren film about Sarah Winchester.
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There are differing stories and perspectives of Sarah (real woman). The version I read, long ago, was that she married the heir to the Winchester rifle fortune. He died. In her grief (and possibly after some incidents), she went to see a psychic/medium.
She was informed that she would be haunted by the ghosts of people killed by Winchester rifles, unless she did x, y, and z.
That turned out to be building Winchester House, a home for them. (Now a tourist attraction.) All sorts of strange things about the place--e.g., dead-end halls. She's been depicted as being quite manic about it.
However...I also read that she subscribed to a professional architecture magazine. So, whatever weirdness/madness was going on, it wasn't *just* that.
Anyway, if there happens to be any truth to any of that, or even if she just felt weighed down with guilt about the source of her inheritance, she'd be the right person to pay a call on the Winchester board of directors.
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/end Possible major SPOILERS for the new Helen Mirren film about Sarah Winchester.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Think civil war--maybe not a formal one, with uniforms and such, but lots and lots of skirmishes.
I suspect that might differ only in degree from what we have now.
Police fairly frequently gunned down by civilians;
Civilians, especially civilians of color, frequently gunned down by police;
Standoffs where some citizen is holed up in his (usually male) home, holding spouse / children hostage with firearms (3 such incidents in the last week in my region of a rural, low-population, low-crime-rate state);
Road rage incidents involving firearms (2-3 in the last month or so in my region).
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Here's the thing about friends and family of the mentally disturbed. There's always a journey of discovery and interaction and consultations, with medics, maybe law enforcement. Getting an accurate diagnosis can be wearing; it often seems like you are fighting denial in the system that your family member or neighbour is outside the normal range. Maybe they just need this pill or that pill to take the edge off?
When the behaviour is mixed with violent or psychopathic tendencies, it seems to be the case that they have to do actual harm before there is a breakthrough. Before that, the various systems seem to have a tendency to encourage family support and careful monitoring. For families on the receiving end, it can be a long, frustrating, worrying process. We've known several families go through this.
The law provides maximum protection for freedom unless crimes are committed and obtaining a medical diagnosis of dangerous mental instability, justifying loss of personal freedom, seems very difficult. A high bar is set. Often a determining factor is scarce resource. A very limited number of secure places, properly staffed.
I'm not sure the preventive side, diagnosis of dangerous instability sufficient to justify loss of freedom, works all that well in the UK. I have no clear understanding of how it works in the US. The impression I get is that some really serious lawbreaking almost always has to happen first.
Emma Gonzales' observation was on the money in this comment. Would he have been able to wreak the same level of havoc with a knife? The primary issue is gun control.
On reflection I think she overstated the case re neighbour and family preventive action. Passion got in the way of clarity. But I am pretty sure the question of converted effective preventive action needs a serious critical look. How do family, neighbours, schools, medics, social workers, schools, police, work together cooperatively on preventing things getting this far.
[ 19. February 2018, 07:11: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I am heartened and encouraged by the students at that Florida school. I wish them well. I hope their nascent crusade sparks something big. They are the true American Patriots right now.
The stupid thing is that there are plenty of ways to restrict the distribution of military style weapons and protect people's right to own a gun. I hope that the NRA is forced to test every damn one of them in the Supreme Court, because that would mean that they got through congress, and that would mean that the NRA has lost.
And I will blubber like it's the last 15 minutes of the film Persuasion.
GOD BLESS YOU AMERICA, and keep you safe.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
This in the Guardian today. Needs no comment.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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