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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Fucking Guns
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
IIRC, customers were wearing guns into Starbuck's, and a manager tried to stop them.
And, surely the manager has every right to tell people if they want to be served in his coffee shop they don't bring a gun inside. What's to stop him? Apart from fear of getting shot, that is.
IIRC, the law, unfortunately.
While I appreciate that you have noted that I'm describing what is the culture in parts of the US rather than what it should be, I believe you're mistaken on the law in this instance. Businesses can refuse to bake cakes for same-sex weddings only if they're willing to shell out huge amounts of money in legal fees and penalties. OTOH, there's nothing stopping them from refusing service to people wearing guns, and more than there's anyone telling them to take down their 'no shoes, no shirt, no service' signs.
That more businesses don't do so is a symptom of the culture war.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Legitimate uses include:
1) Food. There are still a lot of hunters in this country who rely heavily on what they kill to eat.
As I said, I can see hunting as a legitimate use of guns. I don't see why they need to be hanging around at home though. What about an arrangement with the local police station, or some other location that's secure, where you come in on Friday evening to sign out the gun you need for your weekend hunting trip, and a sensible amount of ammo, and sign them all back in on Sunday evening? You still get to hunt your food, but don't have guns around the house where they're liable to shoot someone accidentally or get stolen by someone to use in a crime, or used by a teenager in the house who's decided to take action over the other kids at school who called him names.
And, in a civilised society, people shouldn't be in a position where not killing an animal that crosses their road leads no dinner on the table.
Who said the US was a civilised society?
Most of the legal gun owners I know do in fact store their guns unloaded in locked boxes separate from their ammunition. Most of them agree that in an urban or suburban setting it makes little sense to keep a gun, and few of them do so (the ones that own them store them in a rural location where they will be likely to use them; most of the exceptions I know are people working some type of security). Because the risk/reward ratio (the chances that the gun will be stolen, that a child will get their hands on it, or that even if used legitimately an innocent bystander will be struck instead of the target vs. the chances that they’ll use the gun for a legitimate purpose) is so skewed.
But if you seriously think that people storing their guns and ammo at a police station where they have to be signed out for a weekend hunting trip is a reasonable suggestion, then, yes, I’m going to suggest that the cultural differences between the US and UK are significant enough that communication (much less agreement on what constitute reasonable gun laws) may not be possible. Because I don’t even know where to start addressing the problems in that statement.
In the US, people who hunt for their food don’t generally have 9-5 jobs during the week such that they would make a weekend hunting trip. Nor do they necessarily have a lot of extra money for the gas it would take to make the hour plus round trip to the nearest police station.
And you obviously don’t understand a lot of Americans’ relationship to their government. The government (and people’s fear of it) is the reason that some people own guns. I live in Baltimore (you may have heard about our recent unrest that included rioting and the national guard and cops from neighboring states being called in). From the point of view of most people on the ground, the government set that situation up by taking an unbelievable rumor to be a credible threat, and then shutting down transportation at a major hub just as school was letting out thus forcing a bunch of adolescents (not known for their maturity) into a situation where police in riot gear were ordering them to do something (leave the area) that they were literally unable to do. Given the history, getting people to believe that the government isn’t deliberately trying to hurt them is a challenge. Convincing them that the government or its agents are really working in their best interest is impossible.
In the US we’ve had years of experience of zero tolerance policies in the schools. Mostly it has led to a massive school to prison pipeline. Can someone come up with a gun control policy idea that would actually work in the US? Because mostly what I hear is crickets and people bitching about the power of the NRA. But if the NRA wasn’t a factor, if someone could have their perfect gun control policy, what would it be? Timothy the Obscure’s forcible confiscation program?
Actually, you know what, fuck it. Maryland consistently ranks as having some of the best gun laws in the country (as defined by liberals). While I was trying to figure out how to respond a nine-year old girl got shot in broad daylight not far from here. This weekend a 71 yr old man was killed in a shopping center and a 9 yr old girl was shot, both in broad daylight.
This shit isn’t going to get solved by secular liberals setting a minimal standard of behavior and having law enforcement use violence to enforce it.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Most people who own guns own several. Some are family heirlooms, some have different uses. If you hunt, it's certainly not unreasonable to own three or four rifles and a couple of shotguns per person in your household: each gun has a different use. If you carry a handgun for self-defense, you probably have three or so (something small to conceal in summer clothing, or in a small evening bag; something with more stopping power as a normal carry weapon, and a large .45 or something.
If you told me that the average US gun owner owned 10 guns, I wouldn't be surprised. A hundred would be unusual.
(I certainly know a few people in suburbia with guns. They get used once or twice a year, maybe.)
Yes. I also wouldn't be surprised if most of the legal gun owners I know own around 10 guns. The only person I know who might own a hundred makes his living restoring old weapons.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Alan, I was pointing out you were making sweeping generalisations based on your experiences, and not everyone's were the same. In a post that pointed out that the UK gun laws have become more rigorous, gradually, following shooting incidents.
Alan's comment made me fervently wish that the next generations of kids in the US will be able to say the same thing about law enforcement with no weapons.
As for rattlesnakes-- there are these things called sticks. Big fat sticks for whacking things. Snakes existed a long time before guns did, have been managing just fine without them, and no weapon in the world is going to replace a lack of vigilance, anyway.
I think the big elephant in the room is mass media-- how do we convince ourselves that weapons are sexy, anyway? Well, that's easy-- every definitive "alpha" celebrated by movies and tv waves a gun around. The same people who sniff about gun control cheer when Indiana Jones plugs the guy with the saber.
Eyerolls to commence, but another front line story-- the place I am working at is in the nexus of high gang activity. That might be a lesser problem to the fact that there is also a high number of overworked parents letting the TV be the babysitter, or letting kids stay up way too late to watch shows kids have no business watching just to have some semblace of family time after their 14 hour day. ( All of these kids are Walking Dead fans. Jesus.)
At the start of the year, we had the worst problem arising from simple "gun play" escalating into real, physical punching and kicking and clawing. Because TV rules are, you don't stop the fight until the bad guy can't get up. If you are not the clear victor, you must be the bad guy. It was so bad that a couple of kids literally did not know how to enter a group playing anything-- building sand castles, blocks, water play-- without knocking someone's building over or or just slapping them in the face. It was more than just normal impulse control problems, it was like these kids honestly didn't see any way to engage with others that didn't involve a fight.
So, this was a " modest proposal" I thought up, because I really do wonder what would happen on the kid level if we pulled this off. Let's say people in the UK got organized enough to ask the EU (?) to issue this statement.
quote:
We, the undersigned representatives of the UK stand in solidarity with the more than 10,000 US victims of gun violence per year. We abhor the gun culture that poisons the US and enslaves its citizens, and we reject American mass media's atrempt to promote such culture, by normalizing and celebrating gun violence. To that end, we encourage the citizens of our own country to boycott movies and television in which gun violence is glorified, or is used as the primary solution to conflict. We also encourage them to immediately cease purchasing any merchandise related to such media.
We ask the citizens of the countries undersigned to commit to three years of said boycott, and we heartily encourage like minded Americans to participate.
To ( ironically) quote Quentin Tarantino, people don't listen till you start fucking with their paycheck. If by some miracle a campaign like this worked, I bet even Jerry Bruckheimer would suddenly become a flower sniffing hippie.
And my bet is, by year three, American teachers would start seeing a difference in the classroom. Maybe not a complete turnaround, but a difference.
People hear stories before they hear facts. Much cerebral reasoning can be undone by sitting someone down to watch " The Purge" Why is it we can spend all this time expressing mystification about US gun culture without holding Hollywood's feet to the fire, at least a little? They make a good deal of money off of American collective fear.
It would be a hard row to hoe, though, because the entity we would be confronting would also have the biggest tools for shutting us up.
This. I have been thinking that the problem stems from the mass media, and have even challenged year 7 kids with *why* images of people with guns are cool - they really couldn't see that they weren't. If it is like that in Australia, it would be infinitely harder to deal with in the U.S. This idea looks like it could actually work, if we could get enough people on board.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
saysay--
Actually, at the time my first link (posted a little later) talks about, it was very legal to wear your gun into Starbuck's, etc., here in California. So trying to refuse service to them was a problem. The second link discusses the state's legal struggles, back and forth.
Starbuck's itself has been back and forth about it, too, over several years. Web search. Skimming down the page gives an idea of how fraught and confusing the whole thing's been.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
saysay--
Actually, at the time my first link (posted a little later) talks about, it was very legal to wear your gun into Starbuck's, etc., here in California. So trying to refuse service to them was a problem. The second link discusses the state's legal struggles, back and forth.
I understand that it was legal to wear your gun into a Starbucks. I don't have a problem with that. Where I'm from, the manager could refuse them service if they so desired. If they declined to do so, the people who didn't want to see someone with a holstered gun ordering coffee could leave and, if they so desired, boycott Starbucks for their policy.
In fact, I'd like it if people would do that. Boycott Starbucks, choose instead to give your money to a local coffee shop!
I have more of an issue with California lawmakers attempting to change the store policy of a Mass. company which will then affect the abilities of people in WVA to move about freely in accordance with the laws and cultural mores in their state.
OTOH, the feds have made it clear that refusing service to a gay couple on basis of their homosexuality will come with a high price tag.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I understand that it was legal to wear your gun into a Starbucks. I don't have a problem with that.
And I repeat, what the fuck is wrong with you people?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
If I am in a store and see a customer with a gun, I will leave. I will complain to the business owner afterwards. If we all do this, it has to have an effect.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If I am in a store and see a customer with a gun, I will leave. I will complain to the business owner afterwards. If we all do this, it has to have an effect.
In the US the effect in many cases will be the business owner suggesting that you mind your step on the way out.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I don't care. I am the customer. I vote with my dollar.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Who said the US was a civilised society?
Yes, I know. When a country has a culture which means that more of their citizens are killed by guns than have been killed in every war they've ever fought, and this is largely ignored by the government, 'civilised' isn't a word I would use either.
And, if you think my suggestion about storing hunting rifles meant that I'm saying guns should only be stored at a police station and used at weekends then I think you need to read what I wrote more carefully.
The point is that a hunter only needs his guns from the time when he reaches the trail head until he loads his kill in the back of his pickup and heads home. The question is, what does he do with those guns the rest of the time? I'm saying that that needs to be securely stored somewhere - for his own safety to avoid accidents and to reduce the risks of theft, because the main source of guns used in criminal activity is someone stealing them from private individuals. A secure location with 24h manned security close to where he goes hunting is better than a cupboard in his home, a police station is one such location but wouldn't be the only one.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If I am in a store and see a customer with a gun, I will leave. I will complain to the business owner afterwards. If we all do this, it has to have an effect.
In the US the effect in many cases will be the business owner suggesting that you mind your step on the way out.
I'm coming round to the notion that if the pro-gun advocates on the Ship act and speak in real life the way they do here, then I'm not surprised they feel the need to carry a gun. romanlion, that statement of yours reads like a threat.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If I am in a store and see a customer with a gun, I will leave. I will complain to the business owner afterwards. If we all do this, it has to have an effect.
In the US the effect in many cases will be the business owner suggesting that you mind your step on the way out.
I'm coming round to the notion that if the pro-gun advocates on the Ship act and speak in real life the way they do here, then I'm not surprised they feel the need to carry a gun. romanlion, that statement of yours reads like a threat.
I think you're misintepreting it - I believe it's essentially suggesting that if you don't like the situation, you can leave - "Don't let the doorknob hit you on the way out," or (more crudely) "Don't let the doorknob hit ya where the good Lord split ya!"
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Though, in economically trying times a business owner who sends paying customers packing with words to that effect deserves what he gets (which, is likely to be an end to his business). I strongly doubt that there are enough open carry nuts out there to keep him in business if he kicks out all the customers who feel unsafe seeing guns in public.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If I am in a store and see a customer with a gun, I will leave. I will complain to the business owner afterwards. If we all do this, it has to have an effect.
In the US the effect in many cases will be the business owner suggesting that you mind your step on the way out.
I'm coming round to the notion that if the pro-gun advocates on the Ship act and speak in real life the way they do here, then I'm not surprised they feel the need to carry a gun. romanlion, that statement of yours reads like a threat.
It shouldn't.
I'm sure any that would have the reaction I describe would be polite, but they would tell you to pound sand just the same.
Business owners and other gun nuts use guns to save lives, defend property, and stop crimes with regularity. Protests from the one-off recreant will bring a "good riddance" reaction from many of them.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I understand that it was legal to wear your gun into a Starbucks. I don't have a problem with that.
And I repeat, what the fuck is wrong with you people?
I grew up around guns. Fired my first gun when I was seven or eight trying to hit the varmint that were messing up the fields. Was offered a gun of my own when I was eleven, as family tradition held.
I know people (including relatives) who have, at various points in their lives for different reasons, decided to open carry. They have all been not only responsible gun owners but also the type of people who both know the importance of de-escalating conflict and have the skills to do so. They have also known that if they ever need to use their gun, they will likely face fairly severe consequences.
At this point, seeing a civilian openly carrying scares me far less than seeing a cop (who knows he or she can likely use their weapon with impunity).
As I see it, the problem in this country is not with people who grew up around guns knowing they are useful but very dangerous tools and treat the accordingly. The problem is people who only grew up seeing guns on the TV, movie, and video game screens and associate them with glamour and excitement and a sense that they can be used without consequence and the story will come out all right in the end because the good guys always win and the bad guys always lose.
I can see the NRA's point that actually realistically educating kids about guns might help the situation. Because the current attempt at prohibition is working about as well as our attempts to prohibit drugs or stop teens from drinking or just telling teens not to have sex.
We can't keep going the way we've been going. But I have my doubts that parents are suddenly going to start taking their pediatricians' advice about limiting their children's screen time and exposure to violent imagery. And any gun laws written now are not going to change the number of guns already on the ground.
I don't have the solution. But I'm pretty sure banning open carry in Starbuck's isn't it. Unless you're involved in crime, the people you generally have to worry about are the people with the illegal guns who are concealing them and the cops.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Business owners and other gun nuts use guns to save lives, defend property, and stop crimes with regularity.
Some. Some lose it and cause the deaths of others, by accident or design. Sometimes they do that in defense of property as a result of an over-reaction. Some use their guns to commit crimes, not stop them.
Guns can, and do, get misused by all categories of gun owners. Sometimes you can't tell a good guy with a gun from a bad guy with a gun. Sometimes good guys do bad things.
Generalisations are not universals.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I can see the NRA's point that actually realistically educating kids about guns might help the situation. Because the current attempt at prohibition is working about as well as our attempts to prohibit drugs or stop teens from drinking or just telling teens not to have sex.
WHAT current attempt at prohibition? Are you in the same United States that I am?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Generalisations are not universals.
Unless we are talking about legal open carry.
Then just run, RUN!!
Call later to complain.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
I wouldn't only leave a coffee shop if someone came in carrying a gun; I would avoid doing business there again.
How many murders and suicides and fatal accidents are there for every "life saved" by a legally purchased weapon? Why is it that gun freaks keep insisting they need the protection even as the crime rate has been dropping for years? And those corrupt assholes who defend guns and gun freaks are the very same assholes who encourage idiots (in both the current and the ancient Greek senses of the word) to hate and fear the very idea of government. The "rugged individualists" (read: sociopathic bullies) and "pull-yourself-up-by-your-own-bootstraps" True Believers who fantasize about living on the frontier, a dirty lawless ignorant pit without police or firefighters, without schools or libraries or parks.
If I knew that a business owner was opposed to gun control, I'd boycott.
Despite what saysay babbles about how Americans hate and fear their government (egged on by extremist rightwing politicians), there are plenty of us who don't. Just as there are plenty of us who don't buy into the "American exceptionalism" that came up a couple of pages back and don't believe the Second Amendment guarantees personal arsenals (well-regulated militia, remember). That city-on-a-hill Big Lie was fostered by a couple of the most intellectually limited presidents in history.
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
Posts: 314 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Business owners and other gun nuts use guns to save lives, defend property, and stop crimes with regularity.
Generalisations are not universals.
Furthermore, that isn't a generalization so much as it is a demonstrable fact.
Care to dispute it as such?
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though, in economically trying times a business owner who sends paying customers packing with words to that effect deserves what he gets (which, is likely to be an end to his business). I strongly doubt that there are enough open carry nuts out there to keep him in business if he kicks out all the customers who feel unsafe seeing guns in public.
You apparently have never been to gun-crazy Arizona. The open carry nuts would definitely mean more to most businesses than those of us who hate guns. Then again, there are those with concealed carry permits, so you never know who's got a gun that you can't even see.
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
WHAT current attempt at prohibition? Are you in the same United States that I am?
No, I don't think I am.
I lived in DC under the gun ban.
In most of the states I've lived, the list of persons prohibited from owning a firearm keeps getting longer and longer. Which means more criminals (violent criminals at that), but not necessarily less gun violence.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
How many murders and suicides and fatal accidents are there for every "life saved" by a legally purchased weapon?
We already know the answer to this. It's 22.
Although come to think of it I'd have to find the link again to know if the accidents were all fatal ones.
Another article I just saw put it this way: how many times in their life is a gun owner actually going to have a chance to heroically save themselves or another? Maybe once in a lifetime. How many times in their life are they going to have a chance to have an accident, to get in a quarrel that escalates while no-one is thinking straight? A heck of a lot more.
Bringing a gun into your home is significantly increasing the risk that someone is gonna die. It's as simple as that. And you and your family and friends spend a heck of a lot more time in that home than any intruder does, so the idea that the person who's gonna get hit by the gun is a baddie is a fantasy of the highest order.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Also, we have the most venomous snakes in the world. We try to stay away from them rather than thinking a gun is going to solve the problem. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
I know people (including relatives) who have, at various points in their lives for different reasons, decided to open carry. They have all been not only responsible gun owners but also the type of people who both know the importance of de-escalating conflict and have the skills to do so.
Great. Now, tell me how I would know whether the bloke walking into the local coffee shop with a gun at his waist is a responsible gun owner and has the skills to de-escalate conflict?
quote:
I can see the NRA's point that actually realistically educating kids about guns might help the situation.
Yes, actually that would help. And, not just kids - educate adults as well.
Here's a simple thing to do. Organise professional gun-education. Include lots of testimony from people who have accidentally shot someone else, and the families of those killed by legal guns used irresponsibly. Include all the studies which prove conclusively that owning a gun for "protection" puts you and your family at significantly greater risk than not owning a gun. Include safe storage. Include some live-fire training. And so on. And, then introduce a requirement that anyone wantign a firearm license has to attend such a course and pass a test at the end to demonstrate that they have assimilated the necessary knowledge. That's not even much more than what's required to get a license to drive a car. I'd expect a good number of people sitting the course decide that actually they don't need a gun after all.
Make that a requirement for any new gun purchases. Give current gun owners a year to sit the course and pass the test, and then start collecting in the guns of those who fail the test or don't even sit it. Put cops at the front of the line to do the course, and those who fail get to go on beat armed with a tazer.
An additional thought came to me. Given the proven increased risks associated with owning guns I would expect insurance companies to be amenable to increasing premiums for those who own guns. If it discourages gun ownership that means less insurance payouts, if it doesn't then the additional costs of payouts for gun related death and injury are covered, and maybe they can look at cutting premiums for responsible people who don't own guns. But, maybe increased insurance premiums are something that gun owners already happily pay.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
How many murders and suicides and fatal accidents are there for every "life saved" by a legally purchased weapon?
We already know the answer to this. It's 22.
What a useless statistic.
You have to factor Chicago out of that number because no one gives a shit about those people.
That should bring it down to about 6 or 8.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
How many murders and suicides and fatal accidents are there for every "life saved" by a legally purchased weapon?
We already know the answer to this. It's 22.
What a useless statistic.
You have to factor Chicago out of that number because no one gives a shit about those people.
That should bring it down to about 6 or 8.
Fantastic. So, you're only going to take 6 to 8 lives for every life you save? Yahoo! Suddenly a gun seems like a useful appliance! My chances of being a hero could be as high as 15%!
That's assuming that your bald assertion about Chicago has any merit whatsoever.
[ 05. October 2015, 02:30: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
PS For anyone who says it's too hard to change America, read this.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Yes, actually that would help. And, not just kids - educate adults as well.
Here's a simple thing to do. Organise professional gun-education. Include lots of testimony from people who have accidentally shot someone else, and the families of those killed by legal guns used irresponsibly. Include all the studies which prove conclusively that owning a gun for "protection" puts you and your family at significantly greater risk than not owning a gun. Include safe storage. Include some live-fire training. And so on. And, then introduce a requirement that anyone wantign a firearm license has to attend such a course and pass a test at the end to demonstrate that they have assimilated the necessary knowledge. That's not even much more than what's required to get a license to drive a car. I'd expect a good number of people sitting the course decide that actually they don't need a gun after all.
Make that a requirement for any new gun purchases. Give current gun owners a year to sit the course and pass the test, and then start collecting in the guns of those who fail the test or don't even sit it. Put cops at the front of the line to do the course, and those who fail get to go on beat armed with a tazer.
An additional thought came to me. Given the proven increased risks associated with owning guns I would expect insurance companies to be amenable to increasing premiums for those who own guns. If it discourages gun ownership that means less insurance payouts, if it doesn't then the additional costs of payouts for gun related death and injury are covered, and maybe they can look at cutting premiums for responsible people who don't own guns. But, maybe increased insurance premiums are something that gun owners already happily pay.
Explain to me how we're supposed to pass legislation requiring such things in an environment where liberal demands on gun control (and everything else) mean that 5-year-olds caught using their finger as a pretend gun are suspended from public school.
(Because those restrictions are already in place in a lot of places before you can buy certain types of guns or receive permits to carry them).
But we can't teach about it because that would be teaching violence, according to NY or CA.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
PS For anyone who says it's too hard to change America, read this.
That article says nothing useful.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by saysay:
Explain to me how we're supposed to pass legislation requiring such things in an environment where liberal demands on gun control (and everything else) mean that 5-year-olds caught using their finger as a pretend gun are suspended from public school.
First off, even in the librul UK I've not come across that sort of extreme reaction. But, I suppose there are probably stories of "loony left" councils doing that (see the Corbyn thread in Purgatory where I pointed out that all those stories, such as banning the "racist" rhyme "Baa baa black sheep", were total inventions by the media seeking to discredit the Labour Party). Do you happen to have any credible source to support your assertion that liberals seek to ban using fingers as pretend guns?
But, let's for the moment accept that there are some nut cases on both sides of the gun control argument; some would seek a ban on anythign gun related, including children playing using their fingers as pretend guns, and others who would seek to have even more guns everywhere. Are you seriously going to say that because of a very small number of complete nutters that we should therefore abandon any attempt to find a common-sense approach down the middle ground?
If there actually aren't a sizeable number of members of Congress, State Governors, Senators and other representatives who are not on either extreme fringe and willing to sit down together and put aside Party affiliation for the sake of finding a common sense solution to the epidemic of gun related deaths in you nation, and to do the work to make that work, then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the lunatics have taken over the assylum and your country is on the fast road to hell without even the protection of a handbasket.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Do you happen to have any credible source to support your assertion that liberals seek to ban using fingers as pretend guns?
Link
Government education in the US cannot be characterized as dominated by conservatives, to say the least.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Reading orfeo's article, I think the author is really naive.
And Alan, re your last paragraph: actually, that pretty much is the case, and some of us American Shipmates have said that on many threads, over many years.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Nothing useful? Naive?
It is already established that states with tighter gun controls have fewer deaths.
Fine. Just line yourselves up to be shot. For fuck's sake.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Do you happen to have any credible source to support your assertion that liberals seek to ban using fingers as pretend guns?
Link
Government education in the US cannot be characterized as dominated by conservatives, to say the least.
From teacher's statement, it seems like the kid wasn't so much suspended for making "gun finger", but for repeatedly disobeying a request from said teacher to stop bugging other kids. It may seem extreme, And maybe was an overreaction, but you try getting kids to know you mean business when you never enforce limits.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Nothing useful? Naive?
It is already established that states with tighter gun controls have fewer deaths.
Fine. Just line yourselves up to be shot. For fuck's sake.
Why in God's name are you equating Golden Key's mild skepticism with anything at all saysay says? Have you read nothing else she has written?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
orfeo--
IMHO, he's naive about getting it passed, implementing it, etc. He's naive about the obstacles.
I *want* gun control. I *want* shootings to stop. But people have tried for a long, long time, and haven't gotten much traction, certainly not on a national basis. People have been trying hard for a long time. Every bit of that matters. But the author severely underestimates how difficult the level of change he wants is going to be.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Thanks, Kelly.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
orfeo--
IMHO, he's naive about getting it passed, implementing it, etc. He's naive about the obstacles.
Well all I can say to that is that you didn't read it very carefully. Quote: "Summoning the political will to make it happen may be hard." And there's about a paragraph in that vein.
That's not the point of the article. The point is that the solution is not conceptually difficult.
[ 05. October 2015, 04:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
... ( To GK)and anybody bothering to read a damn word you said would know that.
Also:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And Alan, re your last paragraph: actually, that pretty much is the case, and some of us American Shipmates have said that on many threads, over many years.
Actually several Americans have been saying this repeated times over the course of the last few days. I don't think gun control legislation is impossible, but the route there is definitely going to rival anything Jerry Bruckheimer came up with. We got a lot of crazy to fight past.
[ 05. October 2015, 04:33: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Then vote.
Write.
Call.
Post.
Seriously, I know you've got one of the most corrupt political systems going, but get involved in it. Make it clear to your representative that being against gun controls will lose them votes. TELL THEM. Get everyone you know to TELL THEM.
It's the only language politicians understand.
Meanwhile, I'm finding that my Australian friends are posting more comments on Facebook against American gun culture than my American friends are. See the problem with that? We don't vote in your elections. We don't have any influence over your politicians.
Ooh. You want to get angry with me for suggesting we care about your problem more than you do? Fine. GET ANGRY. And then go and fucking DO SOMETHING with that anger. Be motivated!
Stop fucking wasting your emotion on this sitting around here and whinging at a bunch of international Shipmates about how we don't understand how haaaaaaard it is. Go and use that energy somewhere useful.
[ 05. October 2015, 04:48: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
And what he said was an extreme understatement.
It's not people haven't been trying very, very hard already. The Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence comes to mind. It was founded by James Brady, press secretary to Pres. Reagan, who was severely injured during the assassination attempt on Reagan. They've made some progress--over decades.
There aren't any quick, easy, or simple fixes.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
orfeo--
"The point is that the solution is not conceptually difficult."
Seriously, you think the problem is that we don't have the concepts???
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Then vote.
Write.
Call.
Post.
Seriously, I know you've got one of the most corrupt political systems going, but get involved in it. Make it clear to your representative that being against gun controls will lose them votes. TELL THEM. Get everyone you know to TELL THEM.
It's the only language politicians understand.
Meanwhile, I'm finding that my Australian friends are posting more comments on Facebook against American gun culture than my American friends are. See the problem with that? We don't vote in your elections. We don't have any influence over your politicians.
Ooh. You want to get angry with me for suggesting we care about your problem more than you do? Fine. GET ANGRY. And then go and fucking DO SOMETHING with that anger. Be motivated!
You're judging how people vote, mobilize, etc by what memes they post?
How the hell do you know what petitions we've signed, what lawmakers we have contacted, what groups we belong to? Or what kind of things we say to the people in our lives who are directly involved in this?
Memes on fucking Facebook don't do a hell of a lot, except make like minded people feel better. Maybe your American friends are all quiet because they are trying to organize their thoughts to figure out what will work.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
And among California's Congress folk are Sen. Dianne Feinstein, Sen. Barbara Boxer, and Rep. Nancy Pelosi, all of whom work very hard for gun control.
Dianne has quite a background in bad weapon experience-- including finding Mayor George Moscone after he was assassinated.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Seriously, you think the problem is that we don't have the concepts???
It's not true of all Americans, and certainly not true of some posting here. But there does appear to be a collective blindness within American society to some basic concepts.
Examples would include recognising that a gun is an extremely unsuitable tool for self defense.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Nothing there to disagree with. That is the predicament, too-- the solutions/ policy changes are the easy part, making the blind see is the real job.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
And getting money out of the legislative system. And getting Congress to actually do the right thing.
(And, for those who don't know, Americans are often glad when Congress hits gridlock in their work, because it keeps them from doing *some* of their crazier ideas.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Thanks orfeo. Saved me a post. As in other aspects of this debate the evidence devalues the mythical assertions.
Serious Hell threads have a lot going for them.
On the RUN point romanlion, nice cross reference to WWE. Seriously, I'm too old to run. Might be able to conjure up a brisk walk. But I don't think I 'd want to turn my back. That doesn't strike me as all that wise either. I'm more into soft answers which - sometimes - turn away wrath. Note that I'm not generalising about that and I haven't got supporting stats either.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
If it wasn't obvious, my thanks were about the posts to romanlion.
On the difficulties and frustrations in getting legislative change, I'm with Kelly and Golden Key. There is a very large elephant to be eaten, one mouthful at a time. And it's hardly surprising if some folks lose heart.
The Man's too Big. The Man's too strong? Powerful song from Dire Straits that. Some lines come to mind.
'I have legalised robbery, called it belief. I have run with the money I have hid like a thief'
'Invented memories. I did burn all the books'
The hearts and minds change is a huge challenge. As we have daily proof.
[ 05. October 2015, 07:21: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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