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Originally posted by romanlion:

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:

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Originally posted by romanlion:

Business owners and other gun nuts use guns to save lives, defend property, and stop crimes with regularity.

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Generalisations are not universals.

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Furthermore, that isn't a generalization so much as it is a demonstrable fact.

Care to dispute it as such?

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
orfeo--

"The point is that the solution is not conceptually difficult."

Seriously, you think the problem is that we don't have the concepts???

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Originally posted by orfeo:


It is already established that states with tighter gun controls have fewer deaths.

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Well, states with the most stringent gun laws see fewer gun-related deaths. If that matters to anybody.

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Except, of course, for DC (yes, I know, not technically a state, but reported as such in your link). Most stringent gun control laws in the nation, and highest rate of gun-related deaths. Not exactly a poster child for stringent regulation.

As for the rest of the data set, the largest average gap shown in the article is very minute[1]. Also interesting to note is that the general difficulty of obtaining a concealed carry permit[2] makes no difference, on average - 3.78 deaths/100,000 population.

We can argue the points of gun control laws, but these stats don't really give you much, I'm afraid.

[1]4.23 deaths per 100,000 population vs. 3.02 deaths/100,000 population

[2]It should be noted that laws differ from state to state - some states make no differentiation between open and concealed carry, while others have a two-tier system, with concealed carry permits harder to get.

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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If you are going to nitpick other people's examples, don't use Chicago and DC to bolster yours. because one, it is like saying locks don't work because you installed one after your house was robbed. And two, only a complete idiot doesn't realise that neither city is a remote island or walled enclave.
Oh, and three, because tighter gun laws won't instantly change things doesn't mean they won't work.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And fuck the mass shooting. Fuck this conversation with a rusty chainsaw. It is shocking, yes. But the maddening thing is how many people die every fucking week. But bog standard murder, suicide, accidental shootings and the like just aren't important enough to register.
If the gun culture "cannot" change, it is because you do not wish it to change, not because change is impossible.
Forget bans, other countries have responsible gun ownership and many fewer deaths.
Unreasoned paranoia and worship of a fictional, penny dreadful version of history is more important than the lives of your neighbors.

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Originally posted by jbohn:
As for the rest of the data set, the largest average gap shown in the article is very minute[1].
[1]4.23 deaths per 100,000 population vs. 3.02 deaths/100,000 population
[/QB]

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Originally posted by romanlion:
Chicago is so bad that Barry doesn't even mention it, and I don't blame him. The place is a bloodbath, and him their best and brightest.

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Goodness, you said something nice about Obama! Are you feeling well?


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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Meanwhile, I'm finding that my Australian friends are posting more comments on Facebook against American gun culture than my American friends are. See the problem with that? We don't vote in your elections. We don't have any influence over your politicians.

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Conservatives aren’t lying when they say they need guns to feel protected. But it’s increasingly clear that they aren’t seeking protection from crime or even from the mythical jackbooted government goons come to kick in your door. No, the real threat is existential. Guns are a totemic shield against the fear that they are losing dominance as the country becomes more liberal and diverse and, well, modern. For liberals, the discussion about guns is about public health and crime prevention. For conservatives, hanging onto guns is a way to symbolically hang onto the cultural dominance they feel slipping from their hands.

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Originally posted by jbohn:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Well, states with the most stringent gun laws see fewer gun-related deaths. If that matters to anybody.

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Except, of course, for DC (yes, I know, not technically a state, but reported as such in your link). Most stringent gun control laws in the nation, and highest rate of gun-related deaths. Not exactly a poster child for stringent regulation.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Personally, I think DC should become a state, if the residents want that.

My guess is someone prevented it from being so, once upon a time, because some sort of vested interest was served that way.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
{{{{{{{Kelly}}}}}}}

Maybe take a break from articles, for a while? Sometimes, a bit of a "news fast" helps.

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Insert more swearing. And some sobbing.

""This is not a gun issue, this is a parenting issue. Our problem with our country now is that we're not stepping in and being good parents. We're not stepping in and teaching them right from wrong," Mr Peterson said." Oh, for Christ's sake!

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
From the article:

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Conservatives aren’t lying when they say they need guns to feel protected. But it’s increasingly clear that they aren’t seeking protection from crime or even from the mythical jackbooted government goons come to kick in your door. No, the real threat is existential. Guns are a totemic shield against the fear that they are losing dominance as the country becomes more liberal and diverse and, well, modern. For liberals, the discussion about guns is about public health and crime prevention. For conservatives, hanging onto guns is a way to symbolically hang onto the cultural dominance they feel slipping from their hands.

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This. This bullshit right here. THIS.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm not sure who can have those conversations you mentioned. Maybe someone from those cultures who tried putting down their gun, and found that it worked out ok?

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
However deeply you may mean the things you say, it's *recreational* for you.

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Fuck that shit with a rusty farm implement. Is that what you really think? When we get exercised about refugees drowning in the Med, or the use of food banks to keep people from starving, that's *recreational*?

No, we don't have to (currently) live it. We don't have to live in a society that is so awash with guns that it's normal (about 1 every day) for a gunman somewhere to kill or injure at least 4 people in a single incident.

Never mind the fact that we might have friends and family who live there. Never mind that we have Shipmates who we might just care about who live there. Never mind that, oh I don't know, we might just come to your country for work, or a holiday, and don't really fancy spending our entire time over there wondering if some idiot with a grudge and a gun is going to start shooting the place up.

If you don't recognise the word 'empathy' then try 'enlightened self-interest'.



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Forward the New Republic

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Oh, hang on. He's right - we can't fix it for you - and you're objecting to him saying it's way past time you got your shit together on this.

You could have constructively spent your pixels in emailing your state and federal representatives instead. If you've already done it once, maybe a letter a week from now on.

We can't fix it for you, but it's sure as hell affecting us.

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
when not even the people who theoretically agree with you hold you in contempt because the problem hasn't been solved yet.

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Originally posted by Ariston:
So a single urban core not more than ten miles on a side, population 635,000 of a 6 million person metro area, a bridge away from a state with some of the loosest gun regulations in the nation, that has seen its murder rate drop to about a quarter of what it was during the gang wars of the crack years (early '90's, when Barry was mayor), is comparable to, say, Oklahoma?

Really?

There's a reason one of our local news sites has made "most recent meaningless comparison between DC and states" a regular feature.

ETA: and did we mention the whole "Congress can overrule or defund any aspect of local government it wants at a whim" thing? You know, the thing that happens when a Republican congress get to control a Democratic city and score points back home in Utah or Texas? There's a reason why the attorney general of DC teaches a course at Georgetown Law about "a federal city-state with limited democracy."

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Not arguing any of that. I didn't compile (or even link to) the statistics, I'm just going on what's presented. Personally, I concur with you - DC is an outlier that is throwing the rest of the averages off, possibly significantly. I'd love to see the data recompiled without DC included, just to see how that changes the reported averages. (The legendary screwed-uppedness of DC government and Congressional "oversight" is worthy of it's own discussion.)

Again, I was merely pointing out that the link full of statistics didn't actually provide much support for MT's argument. Or anybody else's, from whatever position, for that matter - in large-scale terms, there's just not that much difference between the various states, on average. Which makes one wonder how effective (if at all effective) any of the current laws are.

Mea culpa for trying to look detachedly at data in the middle of an emotional rant.

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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
... the kilt has been elevated to a mythical status with invented associations of some tartans with particular clans, festivals for pipes, Highland dancing and folk music, we've even taken a type of sausage and given it a mythic status ...

I'm quite willing to accept that there are groups within the US who feel culturally threatened, and seek something emblematic to hold onto to maintain a cultural presence.

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... Another recent example relates to a flag, which is something actually designed as a cultural emblem, as a means to identify where your people are in the chaos of battle (and, in the UK flags have been a major issue in attempts by some groups in Northern Ireland to maintain a cultural identity).

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So, I can see how for some groups within the US, gun ownership is an emblematic cultural issue. Openly carrying a gun in public, for example, would then be a statement of cultural identity meeting the same functional requirement as wearing a kilt to a rugby match (although a gun is a lethal weapon which adds an additional element of danger to others) ...

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And the car companies still cover up safety problems and rig cars to fake test results, and eventually (after people are injured or killed) recall millions of cars.

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Originally posted by jbohn:

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Originally posted by Ariston:
DC...Oklahoma

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Not arguing any of that. ...

I'd love to see the data recompiled without DC included, just to see how that changes the reported averages. (The legendary screwed-uppedness of DC government and Congressional "oversight" is worthy of it's own discussion.)

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Originally posted by Sipech:
Oh for fuck's sake!

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
How the heck can that be described as an accident?

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It's about as accidental as unintentional pregnancy from unprotected sex.

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