Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bloody Brexiteers
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Alan Cresswell
 Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
In the current sort of situation there are really only two ways that might be sensible.
1. Do the hard work in advance, produce a white paper (or similar) that will describe in detail the intention of the government in regard to the proposed constitutional change. Which is what happened in Scotland, where the Scottish Government produced a hefty document describing their vision for an Independent Scotland and the process by which they would attempt to enact that vision if there was a Yes vote (given that large parts of that would require negotiation with other parties there was always a recognition that not all of the white paper might be achievable).
In the current EU referendum we have no equivalent white paper. Which is mainly because the government is not proposing the change, and so there is no competant authority to write such a policy document and be in a position to attempt to fulfill the policies it would contain.
We don't have that, so we come to option 2.
Which is to produce a multi-question ballot and have some form of preferential/transferable vote system to best gauge the views of the UK electorate, with a commitment from the government to draw up policies that best reflect those views.
Which we also don't have.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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alienfromzog
 Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
I see the problem there Alan. Your post supposes that the intention of the referendum is to achieve policy for the United Kingdom. It's a kind of proof by contradiction.
Of course, as you you know, the intention of the referendum was to achieve a united Conservative Party.
Not only are with governed by right wing zealots. We are also governed by incompetents.
YMMV
AFZ
-------------------- Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. [Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Alan Cresswell
 Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It wasn't even intended to unite the Conservative Party. It was put in the manifesto to keep the party together long enough to stop them collapsing during the general election. It was always going to tear the party down the middle during the campaign - even Cameron must have realised that having members of the same party on different sides of the argument would do that. The only hope the Conservatives ever had of coming back together after the referendum was a very substantial vote one way or the other (70-30 or similar), a very close vote would be a disaster for the Conservative Party.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
On a tangent; while a lot of Brexit stuff sucks, what sucks even more is Dispensational Brexit stuff.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Can you actually have a government by incompetents? Doesn't the word government imply something about being able to do the job - even if one doesn't approve of the sort of job it is doing.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
As per the Peter principle, "managers rise to the level of their incompetence."
The idea that politicians must be competent because they've achieved high office is clearly bunk.
-------------------- arse
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
Kakistocracy is government by the worst or least competent. It's the antonym of aristocracy. Government means only governing; it doesn't imply governing well, as generations of politicians in just about every nation in the history of society have proved.
-------------------- Misha Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by chris stiles: On a tangent; while a lot of Brexit stuff sucks, what sucks even more is Dispensational Brexit stuff.
And/or charismatic Brexit stuff. According a prophecy snagged on Mrs Eutychus' Facebook feed just now, "God wants NO ONE in the EU".
I presume that means all 28 nations have to disband?
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: According a prophecy snagged on Mrs Eutychus' Facebook feed just now, "God wants NO ONE in the EU".
I presume that means all 28 nations have to disband?
Disband and go back to blowing the shit out of each other. Is this what God wants? Rather thought He'd had a fill of that prior to the EU.
-------------------- Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
With the conservatives in a not so Civil war one should see the labour party emerging as the new dominate party but they are not.
-------------------- I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
apparently I am living in one of the most pro Brexit places in the UK.
I have this vision that after this modern equivalent of the English civil War is over. People will be saying in 20 years time they were Brexiters over there & in that village they were Remainers & they still don't speak. (I once went to a place where the villages were noted whether they were Roundhead or Cavalier).
-------------------- I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nightlamp: With the conservatives in a not so Civil war one should see the labour party emerging as the new dominate party but they are not.
At the moment so many of the Parliamentary Labour Party are Blairites and they detest Jeremy Corbyn. That Corbyn was elected leader by an overwhelming majority only serves to upset them further.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Don't know where's the best place to say this, but I'm hoping and praying (from across the Pond) for whatever's best to happen. (No idea what that might be.)
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nightlamp: With the conservatives in a not so Civil war one should see the labour party emerging as the new dominate party but they are not.
Largely because the Labour Party's currently engaged in a Cold War of its own. Parliamentary Labour Party vs the Leader and the rest of the party; Leader and the rest of the party vs the PLP and (probably) the electorate...
I've said before that I think the Labour Party could end up being the real casualties of the referendum, but there's also a strong line of thinking that says the only reason the Tories feel able to be so brutal to each other is because they know Labour is in such disarray that they simply can afford to.
I mean, that's enormously arrogant, and they may well be wrong in their calculations, but there again they might equally be right.
-------------------- And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: And/or charismatic Brexit stuff. According a prophecy snagged on Mrs Eutychus' Facebook feed just now, "God wants NO ONE in the EU".
Yes, a post that came up on my feed claimed that the writer had been to the 'throne room of the father' and had had a vision of Europe 'a few thousand years ago' when God split the UK from the mainland of Europe. With the implication that we shouldn't try to join together that which God had split apart
So it was that and the various posts that claim that the European Parliament looks like the Tower of Babel (but only as depicted by one particular Renaissance artist in one particular painting), and that the statue of Europa outside the Parliament is actually a statue of the Whore of Babylon.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
 Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I've just posted this link on the In/Out thread in Purg, but thought I'd put it here too.* Wel worth listening to Prof Michael Dougan explain the law. *Is that okay, Host?
-------------------- I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
 Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
... and I've just noticed that David Icke is on the OUT side!! I wonder how many exiters realise this weird fact!!!!
-------------------- I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by SusanDoris: ... and I've just noticed that David Icke is on the OUT side!! I wonder how many exiters realise this weird fact!!!!
Apparently Anjem Choudary is backing Remain. Score draw?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Alan Cresswell
 Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
There are nutters on both sides of the debate. A "nuttiness" metric of each side is a very poor method of deciding which way to vote.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by SusanDoris: I've just posted this link on the In/Out thread in Purg, but thought I'd put it here too.* Wel worth listening to Prof Michael Dougan explain the law. *Is that okay, Host?
Yes. I would have preferred a link to a video of Michael Gove being forcefed Boris Johnson's hair and Farage's cigar ash while the latter are taunted by foreign-born NHS employees shouting "you ain't no British, bro". But it'll have to suffice.
DT HH
-------------------- Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: There are nutters on both sides of the debate. A "nuttiness" metric of each side is a very poor method of deciding which way to vote.
Actually, I'm not sure about that. Leave are so chockful of nuts it could be squirrel shit.
Bluntly put, not every Leaver is a racist, but every racist will vote Leave.
-------------------- Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alan Cresswell
 Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Doc Tor: quote: Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: There are nutters on both sides of the debate. A "nuttiness" metric of each side is a very poor method of deciding which way to vote.
Actually, I'm not sure about that. Leave are so chockful of nuts it could be squirrel shit.
Bluntly put, not every Leaver is a racist, but every racist will vote Leave.
Let me clarify. My "nuttiness" metric applies to names of people. I'm willing to hold open the possibility that a total nutter like Farage, Johnson, Gove or Cameron might produce a sensible argument (although I'm still awaiting any evidence of that happening).
Making a decision on which of the campaigns is producing arguments that are least nutty is perfectly valid.
Basically, decide to vote on the strength of arguments and issues rather than personality. And, IMO that also applies to anyone who might be swayed to vote one way or another on the endorsement of sports personalities and others with no previous track record for interest in and knowledge of politics, economics or anything else relevant to the question.
-------------------- Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I would say the appropriate metric to judge on is the mean nuttiness of each group. The maximum or highest percentile of nuttiness is not very informative.
I'm pretty clear where the means lie: Sciurus faeces vs fruit-n-nut-bar occasional contamination.
-------------------- mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I've noticed that on various forums and comment columns, the nutters and trolls tend to be for Leave. These are the people who think that MI5 are running the Remain campaign, and are even now, installing bugs in your bedroom.
This is probably completely without value in general terms, as these nutters tend to be voluble. So there are without doubt shy nutters, who may be for Remain, and think that MI5 is a chocolate bar (with nuts).
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: These are the people who think that MI5 are running the Remain campaign, and are even now, installing bugs in your bedroom.
You've let your guard down now. How else could you know about that?
-------------------- mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mdijon: quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: These are the people who think that MI5 are running the Remain campaign, and are even now, installing bugs in your bedroom.
You've let your guard down now. How else could you know about that?
Oh, my brother-in-law has a contract putting the bugs in, and taking them out, when no longer needed. They don't actually listen to people having sex, well, not usually.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by chris stiles: So it was that and the various posts that claim that the European Parliament looks like the Tower of Babel (but only as depicted by one particular Renaissance artist in one particular painting), and that the statue of Europa outside the Parliament is actually a statue of the Whore of Babylon.
I was actually in Brussels not long ago, paid for by the European Commission (this may well push my detractors straight to a Leave vote ).
I quite like the European Parliament building in Strasbourg, and the new-look Berlaymont building in Brussels, but I have to admit the other institutional edifices in Belgium are quite forbidding in a Metropolis-like sort of way.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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SusanDoris
 Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Doc Tor: Yes. I would have preferred a link to a video of Michael Gove being forcefed Boris Johnson's hair and Farage's cigar ash while the latter are taunted by foreign-born NHS employees shouting "you ain't no British, bro". But it'll have to suffice.
DT HH
Thank you, Host. I have a busy day today fortunately, so I shal not be thinking about what's happening with voting! Voting first, then tap class, coffee afterwards, hair do, finish packing - I'm off on Friday morning. At least I'll know the results before I go.
-------------------- I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by chris stiles: Yes, a post that came up on my feed claimed that the writer had been to the 'throne room of the father' and had had a vision of Europe 'a few thousand years ago' when God split the UK from the mainland of Europe. With the implication that we shouldn't try to join together that which God had split apart
So it was that and the various posts that claim that the European Parliament looks like the Tower of Babel (but only as depicted by one particular Renaissance artist in one particular painting), and that the statue of Europa outside the Parliament is actually a statue of the Whore of Babylon.
Seen that too. And read the Adrian Hilton book. At the request of some confused Christian friends. I did a serious critique but observed at the end that the pervasive partial success of such drivel depended on fear. Fear can and does make folks more vulnerable, more easily manipulated. That 'demon' is best cast out by love. I have that on good authority.
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Matt Black
 Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Yes, I've read the Adrian Hilton book (IIRC it's all tied up with the Catholic Church and the Habsburgs and the Holy Roman Empire). Have also read Hal Lindsay.
Barking, both of them...
-------------------- "Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Has anyone else noticed that Boris Johnson's hair is looking more and more like Donald Trump's as the campaign progresses?
Coincidence? I think not...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
I'm looking to stay up tonight, but with a huge sense of foreboding. Voted at 7.00, and live in a Borough where support for Remain is just too obvious even to have to worry about canvassing. But the Outside London factor makes it impossible to call.
-------------------- Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: ... [who] think that MI5 is a chocolate bar (with nuts).
A nutbar then?
There's a picture on the Daily Telegraph web-site this morning showing Nigel Farage looking like such a swivel-eyed loon you'd think it would send even the most dedicated of Brexiteers scuttling off to vote "remain".
-------------------- I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander. alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Piglet: There's a picture on the Daily Telegraph web-site this morning showing Nigel Farage looking like such a swivel-eyed loon you'd think it would send even the most dedicated of Brexiteers scuttling off to vote "remain".
Yes, I saw that - it was distinctly unnerving to the point of even sinister. I nearly posted it on FB but I figured people had had enough.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jane R: Has anyone else noticed that Boris Johnson's hair is looking more and more like Donald Trump's as the campaign progresses?
Coincidence? I think not...
Perhaps it is the natural consequence of plying on ignorance, fear and hate? The true mark of the beast?
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I like Boris, but I'm increasingly convinced he doesn't actually believe any of the stuff he's been saying.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ariel: but I'm increasingly convinced he doesn't actually believe any of the stuff he's been saying.
I'm not sure I'd go that far. I would say that reaction matters more to him than reality. Another Trumpish characteristic.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Bollocks. This is going to be one of the scariest election nights I've ever experienced.
Whatever happens tonight, there is going to be carnage tomorrow. I still believe a GE is in the offing.
-------------------- arse
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Well, I hope so. Chews nails down to the quick.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan: Well, I hope so. Chews nails down to the quick.
I don't. The Tories are bad, but a wind blowing in a bunch of crazed Brexiters in a rushed GE would be the worst.
-------------------- arse
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ariel: I like Boris, but I'm increasingly convinced he doesn't actually believe any of the stuff he's been saying.
I've been convinced of that for some time - watch any interview where he is pressed hard and resorts to bluster - watch the video on youtube of him being questioned by Andrew Tyrie - there are moments where he seems somewhat sheepish to be questioned about something he previously said.
(And I don't like him - I think he's a nasty piece of work, who has lied repeatedly. The buffoon act is studied - and it doesn't speak well of this country that so many people assume that it is a form of charm).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Curiosity killed ...
 Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by pete173: I'm looking to stay up tonight, but with a huge sense of foreboding. Voted at 7.00, and live in a Borough where support for Remain is just too obvious even to have to worry about canvassing. But the Outside London factor makes it impossible to call.
The outside London areas I've been inhabiting (work and home) all feel as if Leave is ahead. There is certainly a lot of noise about Leave in those areas. The MP in Romford, Andrew Rossindale, is very publicly supporting Leave together with the UKIP MEP. The Leave mob in the High Street last Saturday here were getting a lot of support from the noise from passing cars. Lots of Leave posters up and not so many Remain in both those areas.
It was very busy in the polling station at 7am this morning, even though it was tipping it down with rain, and it was also busy as I walked past tonight at 8pm.
(I wasn't expecting to be back this early, but I ran for home as it started raining this evening: the journey in was not good around the flooding and subsequent transport disruption.)
-------------------- Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I knew when I'd arrived in Kent last weekend by the proliferation of posters saying "Leave". Which I felt was a little unkind when I'd only just arrived.
Well, we'll see what the dawn brings, I suppose. Anyone likely to stay up late listening to the results as they come in? I shall have the radio on, but that's nothing new.
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balaam
 Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by chris stiles: The buffoon act is studied - and it doesn't speak well of this country that so many people assume that it is a form of charm).
To me the Boris charm offensive has become increasingly lacking in charm as the campaign has progressed.
-------------------- Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by balaam: To me the Boris charm offensive has become increasingly lacking in charm as the campaign has progressed.
The British public have been steadily giving up on charm and stuffed shirts for well over a decade. Can't see Boris being too worried on that score.
-------------------- Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I'm hoping that the Scots and the great majority of Labour voters together will save the UK from Tory Shires isolationism and UKIP xenophobia. But I'm not counting my chickens. I do reckon that poster and Jo Cox's murder may in the end make sufficient difference. But it's nail-chewing time for the next several hours.
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Bollocks. A significant Leave win would be the worst possible result.
-------------------- arse
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
And the fucking morons vote to cut their own throats. Lord what fools these voters be.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
Are these people actually completely fucking insane?
Time to grieve for my country I think.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I feel physically ill. This is going to be godawful
-------------------- arse
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