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Source: (consider it) Thread: Bloody Brexiteers
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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What a nightmare. Get 'em, Karl!

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35057 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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I can no longer decide which side of this debate is stupider.

The side that won appears to have a fair share of nasty xenophobic assholes. The side that lost is taking denial to ridiculous levels.

[ 27. June 2016, 15:13: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I can no longer decide which side of this debate is stupider.

The side that won appears to have a fair share of nasty xenophobic assholes. The side that lost is taking denial to ridiculous levels.

It's a recognised stage in grieving. We're also doing a fair bit of bargaining. Rage is mixed in there somewhere.

Give us a break - the bereavement was sudden and brutal.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I can no longer decide which side of this debate is stupider.

The side that won appears to have a fair share of nasty xenophobic assholes. The side that lost is taking denial to ridiculous levels.

It's a recognised stage in grieving. We're also doing a fair bit of bargaining. Rage is mixed in there somewhere.

Give us a break - the bereavement was sudden and brutal.

Sudden and brutal? It's not like space-aliens came down one day and ordered the UK to leave the EU or else.

No, the government called a referendum on what it knew to be a highly controversial issue, with public opinion roughly divided. In such circumstances, both Leave and Remain should have been foreseeable consequences to anyone.

I agree with Orfeo that many of the Remainers are in serious denial. I mean, we need a second referendum because people weren't thinking about the negative consequences the first time they voted? Possible negative consequences were discussed all over the media for months on end.

Posts: 6446 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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I completely disagree, and I have heard and had conversations which make these ideas credible.

There is plenty of evidence that the Leave vote was treated by many who voted that way purely as a protest vote. To have a protest vote driving such a ridiculous decision would have the country doing unnecessary violence to itself.

I agree that some of these ideas are unusual, but so are the circumstances.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I can no longer decide which side of this debate is stupider.

The side that won appears to have a fair share of nasty xenophobic assholes. The side that lost is taking denial to ridiculous levels.

I'm fimly on the Remain side but I won't be signing *that* petition. Referendums are stupid but holding them until you get "the right result" is worse.

Let's just hope the negotiations really do turn into the humungous clusterfuck I mentioned a couple of weeks ago and the whole thing gets nowhere.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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You mean negotiations about negotiations? So that the UK doesn't actually have a negotiating position with the EU? Doesn't sound very hopeful to me.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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quote:
There is plenty of evidence that the Leave vote was treated by many who voted that way purely as a protest vote. To have a protest vote driving such a ridiculous decision would have the country doing unnecessary violence to itself.

If, in a two-choice referendum with both options running neck-and-neck, people were stupid enough to vote for the choice they didn't really want just to stick it to the elites, that's their goddam problem. Votes are tallied according to what is marked on the paper, not according to what you speculate the hidden intention of all the voters really was based on anecdotal evidence.

[ 27. June 2016, 16:41: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I can no longer decide which side of this debate is stupider.

The side that won appears to have a fair share of nasty xenophobic assholes. The side that lost is taking denial to ridiculous levels.

I'm fimly on the Remain side but I won't be signing *that* petition. Referendums are stupid but holding them until you get "the right result" is worse.

Let's just hope the negotiations really do turn into the humungous clusterfuck I mentioned a couple of weeks ago and the whole thing gets nowhere.

Likewise, I was not prepared to sign the petition for a second referendum. Its clearly a very bad idea.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Likewise, I was not prepared to sign the petition for a second referendum. Its clearly a very bad idea.

There is no good road forward, ISTM. Not in the short run. But the best strategy is to fill the potholes in the road chosen as best that can be done.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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I don't know about how pathetic one option is or another.

I just want to ensure that all avenues have been explored to avoid a ridiculously stupid action.

Yes, ok, we have already decided to take it, but wouldn't you rugby tackle a family member if you saw them running towards the edge of a cliff? Isn't that deliberate sabotage of a decision freely made?

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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The problem, as I've already said, is that all the consequences of trying to reverse the decision look worse than the consequences of going through with it, not least because there is even less of a plan for how to reverse it and what should happen next than there is to act on it.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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There are lots of really good positions the UK could be in relation to the EU. The problem is, to get there I wouldn't start from where we are. But, start where we are is the only option we have. Since all the alternatives I can see getting to from here are crap, the challenge is to pick the least crap of those. Added to which, that option will be chosen by a PM I have no voice in the election of. Which is more crap. And, adding yet more crap on the pile is that I don't trust any of the potential candidates for PM (or, anyone they're likely to put in the team trying to work out a solution to the hole they're put us in) to work towards one of the marginally less crap options. Crap.

So, I'm left here moaning about the bloody Brexiters who inflicted this upon us all. And, fantasising that someone might come along and declare the Referendum invalid, or that since the question wasn't defined that we need a confirmatory vote on a real question, or that the UK falls apart and at least some of us have a hope of living in a country that isn't totally fucked up. But, it's all fantasy.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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Aside from the sense of having been fucked and immediately dumped, what is real at the moment?

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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Thunderbunk wrote:

quote:
Yes, ok, we have already decided to take it, but wouldn't you rugby tackle a family member if you saw them running towards the edge of a cliff? Isn't that deliberate sabotage of a decision freely made?

That's a pretty crazy comparison. In order to be comparable to the referendum, there would have to have been a law passed by parliment saying "On such and such a date, Joe Bloggs will be taken to a cliff, and read a statement giving him the option of either running off, or staying put." In other words, the government has openly recognized running off the cliff as a legitimate choice for Mr. Bloggs.

As it stands, in a lot of democracies(and I'm assuming the UK) attempting suicide, while not a crime per se, is grounds for medical intervention of a psychiatric nature. So, the government has already decided that suicide is subject to official disapproval, even before I made the choice to do the rugby tackle.

Like it or not, when Leave was included as a choice on the ballot, the government was recognizing that as a valid choice that deserves to be respected.

[ 27. June 2016, 17:57: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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"Second Referendum" arguments in a nutshell

[ 27. June 2016, 18:01: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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In this case, the pills were sold as Smarties. Those who swallowed them are finding that they have a fierce kick.

Yes, ok , it all sounds a little pathetic, but they were, and the speed at which the merchants are backtracking is frightening.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
In this case, the pills were sold as Smarties. Those who swallowed them are finding that they have a fierce kick.

Yes, ok , it all sounds a little pathetic, but they were, and the speed at which the merchants are backtracking is frightening.

Again, not a good comparison. The sale of medication is regulated by strict laws, laws which would certainly preclude their being labelled as candy. Not so electoral promises, about which voters are expected to maintain a significant measure of critical thought.

The alleged drawbacks of a Brexit were discussed all over the place throughout the campaign. If people chose to ignore them, that's not the fault of the process.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

Posts: 6446 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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What the hell has process got to do with this? There are no badges available for running referendums, and this one has left us with an outcome that sucks arse in hell.

I don't give a flying fuck about the process (which I think, btw, was sabotaged by a toxic combination of opportunism and complacency). I'd be happy for the outcome to be sabotaged by the means currently under consideration.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
What the hell has process got to do with this?

Well, as I see it, the only way you can justify a re-vote is if the original process were somehow unfair. And I'm saying it wasn't; it was as valid as any other election or referendum, almost all of which involve questionable promises and statements of one form or another.

quote:
I don't give a flying fuck about the process
Well, you were the one who brought up things like alleged lying by the Leave side, so it would seem that you did indeed care about the process, at least a few posts back...

quote:
In this case, the pills were sold as Smarties


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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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Yes, OK, that is an argument which needs to be used with a serious amount of discretion.

Look. I'm 44 (by a curious coincidence as of the day on which the result was announced). This decision could fuck up the country for the rest of my working life. I could probably find work elsewhere if I wanted to but (a) most of the viable possibilities are about to get harder and (b) there are reasons to stay here, and I'd rather it were in an unfucked country.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I'd be happy for the outcome to be sabotaged by the means currently under consideration.

And I find that far scarier than going through with it. Far scarier. Because it means that you're prepared to throw what's left of the UK's democratic institutions under the bus in order to achieve a notional result that you prefer.

Yes those institutions have been sorely abused. But ditching them is orders of magnitude more stupid than voting to leave the EU.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
This decision could fuck up the country for the rest of my working life.

It doesn't have to. I think a UK Norway is workable even if I'm pro-EU. Achieving such a solution relies on accepting the outcome and acting on it, the sooner the better. The fastest and surest road to ruin that I can see is if y'all don't do precisely that.

[ 27. June 2016, 18:28: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I'd be happy for the outcome to be sabotaged by the means currently under consideration.

And I find that far scarier than going through with it. Far scarier. Because it means that you're prepared to throw what's left of the UK's democratic institutions under the bus in order to achieve a notional result that you prefer.

Yes those institutions have been sorely abused. But ditching them is orders of magnitude more stupid than voting to leave the EU.

Like I say, sometimes you have to say something in order to hear yourself saying it. Then you realise what you have said.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Yes, OK, that is an argument which needs to be used with a serious amount of discretion.

Look. I'm 44 (by a curious coincidence as of the day on which the result was announced). This decision could fuck up the country for the rest of my working life. I could probably find work elsewhere if I wanted to but (a) most of the viable possibilities are about to get harder and (b) there are reasons to stay here, and I'd rather it were in an unfucked country.

I understand. For what it's worth, I live contract to contract, in a pretty hardscrabble industry, in the Republic Of Korea, and I'm always one non-renewal away from getting sent home packing, with few prospects, to Canada.

And the Korean press has been ALL OVER Brexit, with one of the sub-themes being that this could have an impact on the already precarious Korean economy.

So, yes, I do have some understanding of the reality you're talking about.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What a nightmare. Get 'em, Karl!

I can't work out if you're being supportive or taking the piss [Biased]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
This decision could fuck up the country for the rest of my working life.

It doesn't have to. I think a UK Norway is workable even if I'm pro-EU.
I would love to think that this was achievable, sadly I think it isn't though. It's not on offer, no one will go for it because of the role of the press as outrage generating machines, and no one will try and negotiate for it, based on the same principle.

I absolutely hope I am wrong. We would need an extraordinarily capable political figure to pull it off - and they are sadly in short supply.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What a nightmare. Get 'em, Karl!

I can't work out if you're being supportive or taking the piss [Biased]
To be clearer, fuck those assholes. If you are getting in fights with some of your friends because you protest racists grotesqueries, they ain't friends worth having.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35057 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What a nightmare. Get 'em, Karl!

I can't work out if you're being supportive or taking the piss [Biased]
To be clearer, fuck those assholes. If you are getting in fights with some of your friends because you protest racists grotesqueries, they ain't friends worth having.
Clarification appreciated. The tricky part is when you've got people who aren't inherently bad people, but without thinking they share the superficially convincing.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
There is plenty of evidence that the Leave vote was treated by many who voted that way purely as a protest vote. To have a protest vote driving such a ridiculous decision would have the country doing unnecessary violence to itself.

If, in a two-choice referendum with both options running neck-and-neck, people were stupid enough to vote for the choice they didn't really want just to stick it to the elites, that's their goddam problem. Votes are tallied according to what is marked on the paper, not according to what you speculate the hidden intention of all the voters really was based on anecdotal evidence.
Bingo. And if people are that idiotic that they can't figure out their vote on the first attempt, why the hell does anyone believe having a second go will get a better one?

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18143 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
Yes, ok, we have already decided to take it, but wouldn't you rugby tackle a family member if you saw them running towards the edge of a cliff?

And it's this kind of sense of melodrama that I find so pathetic from the Remain side.

As Eutychus says, you've got a bunch of people who are prepared to throw democratic processes under a bus because those processes didn't give the social media-twittering classes the result they wanted.

If you think the UK is going to be such a bloody awful mess, go move to Norway. Or Switzerland. Assuming either country will accept you, possibly not as they might see you as a threat to social cohesion.

[ 27. June 2016, 22:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807

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Orfeo - I'm a native Brit now settled happily in NZ.

This isn't a black and white issue - many of the things that people are concerned about, uncontrolled immigration and strain on public resources DO need to be addressed. They haven't been addressed for so long they've now resulted in this cluster fuck of a vote.

My problem with the result isn't the result itself its that many people who voted for it are now loudly demonstrating all over their twittering social media feeds (a right not restricted to some fabled rich remainer sect) that they don't understand what they voted for.

They don't understand what the EU is, they don't understand how the EU functions.

BOTH campaigns were so full of shit that even now objective factual headlines of decline in the Pound and the FTSE 250 are being dismissed as 'scaremongering' by people who can't seem to tell the difference between what is NOW happening and what the politicians told them may happen.

They still think they're going to 'get immigrants out' despite what Boris Johnson is (now) telling them. They have voted based on misinformation and lies.

It's complete fucking horseshit. The entire thing.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
This isn't a black and white issue - many of the things that people are concerned about, uncontrolled immigration and strain on public resources DO need to be addressed. They haven't been addressed for so long they've now resulted in this cluster fuck of a vote.

With the tiny, distant glimpse of things I have from over here in California, this makes some sense. From what I've seen/read over the last few days, ISTM there's a lot of festering stuff that needs to be aired and cleaned up--maybe on all sides. And that there are many, many threads to this whole thing.

I wish there were a way for the UK to use this situation in the business sense of "falling forward": it's a mess; but, as long as it's happened, use it to make things better.

If there were a way to listen to each other and clean things out, maybe the UK (visible or invisible) might be stronger going forward, whether in the EU or not.

{Humbly offered from a former colony, full of its own problems.}

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18152 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
My problem with the result isn't the result itself its that many people who voted for it are now loudly demonstrating all over their twittering social media feeds (a right not restricted to some fabled rich remainer sect) that they don't understand what they voted for.

And this is no different to every single election, referendum, plebiscite or elimination from a television talent quest.

We simply do not operate on a system whereby those who think they know the 'right' answer get to discount the value of the votes of those who gave the 'wrong' answer. That isn't how democratic voting works. The vote of the person who we either think or know is a complete moron who doesn't have a clue counts for exactly the same amount as the vote of the person who has a PhD in political theory.

I am a left-leaning member of the educated classes, but the whingefest that is unfolding at the moment over Brexit is one of the most unedifying things I've seen from 'my' side of the intellectual fence in a long time. It's a pile of people who live in a self-affirming social media echo chamber unable to accept that people get a vote even when we think they're voting for entirely the wrong reasons.

Posts: 18143 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:


There is plenty of evidence that the Leave vote was treated by many who voted that way purely as a protest vote. To have a protest vote driving such a ridiculous decision would have the country doing unnecessary violence to itself.

I agree that some of these ideas are unusual, but so are the circumstances.

Well I guess those who voted to leave as a protest will learn a valuable lesson. The ones who voted to leave because they thought the U.K. would be better off may or may not learn a valuable lesson.

The awful and terrible thing about a democracy is that on average people get the government they deserve. Is there really room at this point to fudge away the results claiming it's a very special case?

Posts: 2982 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
What the hell has process got to do with this? There are no badges available for running referendums, and this one has left us with an outcome that sucks arse in hell.

I don't give a flying fuck about the process (which I think, btw, was sabotaged by a toxic combination of opportunism and complacency). I'd be happy for the outcome to be sabotaged by the means currently under consideration.

Well maybe there will be someone to Rugby tackle you before you run off the cliff. As long as there's a valid sizeable group that voted for this result, why do you think they would let you stop at a second election if they lost? They would demand a third.
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Actions have consequences, and sometimes you have to live with the consequences of your choices. Isn't that what we want our kids to learn, unless our kids are uber-rich rapists?

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63199 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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orfeo, what is your problem with the commentary you're seeing here? The despair of what has happened to the country, with all the racism that has been unleashed? Or the wriggling around trying to find a way out?

I am one of the people who pointed to the unleashed racism, but I am really not surprised, it's nothing new to me, the openness is what is new. This racism is something I've seen pretty much daily, working with disaffected youth.

I am frustrated by the idiots I've spoken to who voted leave thinking it would be a protest vote that wouldn't matter and now have horrified expressions wondering what they have done. Sadly not only they, but I, have to live with the consequences of that stupidity. (This was in York at the weekend.) I voted remain, knowing that I was voting against the tide in the outer London fringe and that every vote for remain would count. But ... I have not signed the petition asking for a second referendum and I posted that it had started in Hell when I saw it because I thought it was stupid when I first read about it. What we need to do now is get on with sorting out the best result we can as we leave.

I am hugely concerned that we don't actually have anyone prepared to negotiate as the UK political system is falling to pieces around our ears: the PM resigning, the Parliamentary Labour Party in free fall with a no confidence vote in Jeremy Corbyn planned for today and the Brexiteers stepping back from all promises made in the campaign. Why can we not continue to bemoan the stupidity of those leaders - Gove, Farage, IDS, Boris - who led us into this mess and now seem to have no plan to lead us forward and are doing their best to weasel out of anything they said?

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13592 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
people who can't seem to tell the difference between what is NOW happening and what the politicians told them may happen.

To use the Economist's line again, it's symptomatic of post-truth politics.

I think it also informs our debates here on truth. Many people say that the important and compelling aspects of truth are bound up with the "narrative" rather than the facts themselves. What's playing out here shows just how opposed the narrative and the reality-shaping facts can be.

Also, I think we've all got more used to a world in which Control + Z usually undoes the last stupid thing you did.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17284 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And this is no different to every single election, referendum, plebiscite or elimination from a television talent quest.

We simply do not operate on a system whereby those who think they know the 'right' answer get to discount the value of the votes of those who gave the 'wrong' answer. That isn't how democratic voting works. The vote of the person who we either think or know is a complete moron who doesn't have a clue counts for exactly the same amount as the vote of the person who has a PhD in political theory.

No, there is a difference - the representative democracy that we have doesn't made binary decisions based on the popular vote, probably for the sensible reason that the majority can simply railroad the minority even when the result is close.

As I said on Friday (and boy that feels like a long time ago now), this does also feel to me like a doomed project and a stage of grief.

But that doesn't make the point wrong; in the UK system Parliament is sovereign and so referenda are almost always advisory.

To me the solution out of this particular constitutional mess is the traditional way we solve divisions in British political life - a General Election, not another stupid referenda.

All of that said, the results of this referendum can't simply be swept under the carpet or kicked indefinitely away. For one thing that's a pretty stupid thing to do and would likely lead to trouble on the streets. For another that's pretty rude on everyone else in the world who is affected by the uncertainty it has provoked.

But the bottom line is that this referendum is not the end of the line. There is nothing to say that it should be, there is every reason to ask searching questions about the result.

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arse

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
To me the solution out of this particular constitutional mess is the traditional way we solve divisions in British political life - a General Election, not another stupid referenda.

Can you really not see that if this happens on a ticket to disregard the referendum result, the legitimacy of its outcome (especially if it were close in any respect) would immediately be just as suspect as people are claiming the referendum result was?

Again: regardless of whether the referendum, the required majority, the campaigning, or the outcome sucked, disregarding the result (clearly billed in advance as definitive) wouldn't be a universal admission of "having got it wrong that time round". It would be a further devaluation of the worth of a democratic vote - irrespective of the type of contest. A future outside the EU may look bleak, but that prospect looks much bleaker to me.

[ 28. June 2016, 05:28: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17284 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Can you really not see that if this happens on a ticket to disregard the referendum result, the legitimacy of its outcome (especially if it were close in any respect) would immediately be just as suspect as people are claiming the referendum result was?

Well that's very likely true too - if the result was overturned because of a majority in the HoC that may well also cause trouble in the streets.

quote:
Again: regardless of whether the referendum, the required majority, the campaigning, or the outcome sucked, disregarding the result (clearly billed in advance as definitive) wouldn't be a universal admission of "having got it wrong that time round". It would be a further devaluation of the worth of a democratic vote - irrespective of the type of contest. A future outside the EU may look bleak, but that prospect looks much bleaker to me.
I suppose it depends on which way you look at it - from my POV, any legal tactic to try to stop a disasterous result is worth trying. And you can't tell me that the Brexit supporters wouldn't have done the same if they'd lost - we know they would have because Farage has said so.

A single binary referendum question is not democracy. And fascists regularly use the ballot box to gain initial power. Those are both reasons to do everything possible to try to stop this happening.

Ultimately, I'm pretty sure Brexit isn't going to be stopped, but it is still very important that everything possible is tried.

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arse

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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As profound as the changes are to the country and the economy, now acknowledged by, it seems, many of the people who voted for it: the patient is allowed to overdose, and the medics are allowed to use a stomach pump.

You might feel that it's a gross act of intrusion against individual agency. I think it's a cry for help.

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Forward the New Republic

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
from my POV, any legal tactic to try to stop a disasterous result is worth trying.

From my POV, that is precisely the kind of ends-justifies-the-means thinking that produced this mess in the first place. Cameron attempted to use the referendum as a party political tactic and to hell with the consequences. Now you're saying any tactic is worth trying to unfix it, without really weighing all the possible outcomes of that, including the imponderables.

Aside from all the consequences of further abuse of the democratic process, you're forgetting the consequences outside the UK. A Leave vote may look dumb to many outside the UK; pretending it didn't happen looks beyond dumb. If Cameron has a shred of dignity left after the vote, it's that he acknowledged the will of the people and said their decision should be respected. Abandon that, and I'm not sure the UK will have much respect left at all with anybody else. Its word will be totally suspect.

I understand there's pain here, and despite having left my native shores many years ago I'm going through the trauma too; it's also triggering other stuff for me. But try to step back and think about this a bit. Trying to unfix this is worse than living with it.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17284 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
From my POV, that is precisely the kind of ends-justifies-the-means thinking that produced this mess in the first place. Cameron attempted to use the referendum as a party political tactic and to hell with the consequences. Now you're saying any tactic is worth trying to unfix it, without really weighing all the possible outcomes of that, including the imponderables.

No, sorry, that Parliament is sovereign is not something I dreamed up, it is a fact. Nobody is suggesting doing anything which is contrary to the tradition that Parliament is sovereign.

The tactics under discussion are those which are fully justified under the normal rules that apply in the British system.

quote:
Aside from all the consequences of further abuse of the democratic process, you're forgetting the consequences outside the UK. A Leave vote may look dumb to many outside the UK; pretending it didn't happen looks beyond dumb. If Cameron has a shred of dignity left after the vote, it's that he acknowledged the will of the people and said their decision should be respected. Abandon that, and I'm not sure the UK will have much respect left at all with anybody else. Its word will be totally suspect.
No, once again this is not abuse of the parliamentary democratic system we have in the UK.

Yes it would look dumb and yes it might lead to unfavourable reactions from some other EU leaders - however the club rules are what they are, so just as the UK has to abide by them, so does everyone else. If the rules are that Article 50 can only be officially enacted by the British government and it appears to be true that constitutionally accurate that the British government needs support of Parliament and the British parliament vote needs a simple majority of MPs then the EU will just have to wait until the UK government is ready to give Article 50 notification once it has sorted out the mess. No amount of angry rhetoric can make any difference to that if the rules are any guide.

quote:
I understand there's pain here, and despite having left my native shores many years ago I'm going through the trauma too; it's also triggering other stuff for me. But try to step back and think about this a bit. Trying to unfix this is worse than living with it.
I can tell you for absolutely certain that the pain you're feeling is nothing as to the pain we're experiencing. So you don't get to start weighing your ex-pat pain against those of us who have to live with it.

[ 28. June 2016, 06:57: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

Posts: 10314 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
the EU will just have to wait until the UK government is ready to give Article 50 notification once it has sorted out the mess.

I'm not sure the question of exactly who has the authority to invoke article 50 is as settled as you think, but here, unlike previously, you are implicitly conceding it will happen.

You can argue it's Parliament's right to ignore the referendum, but again, if it does it will have lost still further legitimacy. This game is not worth the candle. It will reinforce the impression that Westminster is an elite that tramples the expressed will of the people. Which is grist to the mill of the populist views espoused by the Leave campaign and used to turn people against the EU.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17284 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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The other problem that we are currently facing is one of accountability. The whole model used by the Leave campaign as it was structuring itself was clearly that it could dump a whole pile of steaming shit on the doorstep of the Houses of Parliament and someone else would use it to fertilise the fields of our green and pleasant lands (including those not in Blake's vision). The idea that they should have to have an account themselves of how this was going to happen clearly did not occur to them. There is no reason why it should have occurred to anyone else, so please could it be noted that the current surreal hiatus is caused by the complete fuckwitted cluelessness of Boris and chums, and not by any fault of the Remain side.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm not sure the question of exactly who has the authority to invoke article 50 is as settled as you think, but here, unlike previously, you are implicitly conceding it will happen.

I guess we'll see what happens today, but given the statements by the Germans, it sounds likely that it is now agreed that Article 50 can only be set in motion with an official statement by the British government.

And no, I'm not conceding that it will happen - I think it is very likely it will. British politicians have said this morning that they think Article 50 should only be invoked in 2020 (!?) and from what some experts are saying, there is nothing the other EU countries could do to stop this delay.

If it got to the next election in 2020 (which personally I think it utterly ridiculous) and a party got to power that didn't have a mandate to give Article 50 notice, then it may never be given.

quote:
You can argue it's Parliament's right to ignore the referendum, but again, if it does it will have lost still further legitimacy. This game is not worth the candle. It will reinforce the impression that Westminster is an elite that tramples the expressed will of the people. Which is grist to the mill of the populist views espoused by the Leave campaign and used to turn people against the EU.
You keep saying that as if it is obviously true. Has the Republic of Ireland lost legitimacy as an EU state because they have repeated referenda? Have they been excluded from the EU club because the results of the one referenda are the opposite of the previous one?

You might think trying to save the UK's position in the EU isn't worth the candle, which is fine that's your lookout from a position outside of the UK. From our position within it, it is worth taking these very mild steps to see if the result can be challenged. If you don't like it, well hard cheese and tough tittie.

[ 28. June 2016, 07:16: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
British politicians have said this morning that they think Article 50 should only be invoked in 2020 (!?)

Yes, Jeremy Hunt has said that. Just to reinforce his right the the rhyming slang name.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32183 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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Apparently that man is thinking of standing for the post of Prime Minister.

I don't know what to say. I don't know which would be worse as PM, him or Boris.

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