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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bloody Brexiteers
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The UK will not be in a Year Zero situation. Several decades of history is not miraculously erased from the history books. All of the trading that currently exists between the UK and other countries will not evaporate, for the simple reason that businesses quite like trading with existing customers and will continue to do it where possible.
It won't evaporate, but it will almost inevitably be more difficult. The only way it would continue in exactly the same way would be if it was part of the common market - and Germany is clear that without freedom of movement for EU labour, that idea is dead in the water.
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arse
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Since the Referendum result was called, I've been surprised by the number of people who would normally claim to believe in fairness, equality, democracy, etc. who have i) trash-talked the working classes; ii) branded anyone who voted Leave as a racist or a thicko or a racist thicko; and iii) claimed with a straight face that a free and fair vote should be disregarded simply because they don't like the result.
I can appreciate that some people must be really gutted by the result (some of my best friends are Remainers, etc.) but the condescension and hypocrisy is stunning.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
No hypocrisy here.
I'm very happy to be condescending, even scathing, about stupid people who vote to leave something they can't be arsed to understand. Who vote to take control back (what the fuck of, who knows) without understanding how a veto works, or for that matter, qualified majority voting.
Equally, to stupid people who can't tell the difference between an opinion poll, an election and a decision which can only be made once but which will affect the way this country works for several generations.
I'm equally scathing about them irrespective of their socio-economic background. Find me a landowner who is so high on nostalgia that he won't look beyond the end of tiresome bureaucracy, and I'll very happily direct my scorn towards him for his lack of the foresight to see what else the EU does and how it is useful to him before voting. Likewise the resident of a Welsh town that has just been redeveloped using funds from the EU, and now wants to cut ties because they are paying more than they are getting. Apparently.
All wilfully stupid, all deserving scorn.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Interesting thing by Malcolm Gladwell (yeah, I know - I find him incredibly annoying but unfortunately he reels me in each time) on This American Life about people who do fucking stupid things.
link
[ 28. June 2016, 18:17: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Fuck, he's done it again.
from Gladwell's article on this in the New Yorker
quote:
In a famous essay published four decades ago, the Stanford sociologist Mark Granovetter set out to explain a paradox: “situations where outcomes do not seem intuitively consistent with the underlying individual preferences.” What explains a person or a group of people doing things that seem at odds with who they are or what they think is right? Granovetter took riots as one of his main examples, because a riot is a case of destructive violence that involves a great number of otherwise quite normal people who would not usually be disposed to violence.
In his view, a riot was not a collection of individuals, each of whom arrived independently at the decision to break windows. A riot was a social process, in which people did things in reaction to and in combination with those around them. Social processes are driven by our thresholds—which he defined as the number of people who need to be doing some activity before we agree to join them.
..a righteous upstanding citizen who nonetheless could set his beliefs aside and grab a camera from the broken window of the electronics store if everyone around him was grabbing cameras from the electronics store.
That's what happened here. Suddenly it became socially acceptable to do something fucking stupid.
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arse
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Whoever programmed your AI did a fairly decent job, but s/he did get the outrage module wrong. Or perhaps there is a bug, you might want to get that serviced.
This does read rather like code for "goodness me orfeo, stop thinking for yourself and fall into line with the social media zeitgeist".
Nope. It is code for your incredulity and scorn for the reaction you disdain shows a failure to quite grasp normal, human behaviour. I don't expect you to applaud it or excuse it, but it is pretty normal.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As for the assassination, with all due respect to a woman whom I admire from what little I know about her, are you seriously arguing that the entire prosperity of the UK is determined by her death?
Fuck the entire prosperity of the UK. I don't care about the entire prosperity of the UK. Well, I do. But there are other things I'd sacrifice it for. And it seems that there are other people who would sacrifice the entire prosperity of the UK for something entirely opposite to my values. And, yes, gross overstatement, they just won.
The US is a damn sight more prosperous than the UK ever was. And you don't need to spell out that it isn't in the EU. That doesn't mean I want to live in a country whose health service is as dysfunctional as the US's health service.
And it looks like the UK is about to end up in the hands of people who want to take it there.
But you know what is even more important? Not being a country where racists and neo-Nazis feel emboldened to try and dictate public policy. Where if a neo-Nazi kills a politician, the side the neo-Nazi supported doesn't go on to win the vote. It's got really very little do with prosperity. It's got a lot to do with our national identity.
It's an outside possibility that the new government will abolish the right of people to marry people of the same sex. It's not likely. But under Cameron it was impossible. The kind of people who want to abolish it are among the people who've just won.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Stephen Crabb is running for the Tory leadership, he who claims homosexuality is a sickness that can be cured.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Since the Referendum result was called, I've been surprised by the number of people who would normally claim to believe in fairness, equality, democracy, etc. who have i) trash-talked the working classes;
Just the ones who have voted against their own benefit. But in that I include the middle-class and the rich who voted in what they think to be their own interest at the expnase of the country as a whole.
quote:
ii) branded anyone who voted Leave as a racist or a thicko or a racist thicko;
Not everyone. A fair chunk, but not everyone.
quote:
and iii) claimed with a straight face that a free and fair vote should be disregarded simply because they don't like the result.
Free, yes. Fair depends upon your definition. And not not everyone is calling for it to be disregarded.
But go ahead, a prejudiced, ignorant misrepresentation is apropos.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
It's an outside possibility that the new government will abolish the right of people to marry people of the same sex. It's not likely. But under Cameron it was impossible. The kind of people who want to abolish it are among the people who've just won.
At least the UK is still going to be in the ECHR. A government trying to do that will get it in the ear from a higher court.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Where if a neo-Nazi kills a politician, the side the neo-Nazi supported doesn't go on to win the vote. It's got really very little do with prosperity. It's got a lot to do with our national identity.
Well I can't speak for all 17,000,000 of us who voted Leave but, fyi, I didn't go to the polls after listening to the Horst Wessel Song and sticking a pin in my Jo Cox voodoo doll.
quote:
It's an outside possibility that the new government will abolish the right of people to marry people of the same sex. It's not likely. But under Cameron it was impossible. The kind of people who want to abolish it are among the people who've just won.
Well that would be quite something given that the party that Cameron leads is still in government and, based on how Labour's performing at the moment, isn't leaving office anytime soon.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Well that would be quite something given that the party that Cameron leads is still in government and, based on how Labour's performing at the moment, isn't leaving office anytime soon.
I think that that sentence should read "...the parties that Cameron leads are still in government..."
You are right about the disarray of Labour, but let's not pretend that Dave is captaining the happy bus at the moment - and which gang of Tories is likely to come out on top following the power struggle is far from clear.
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Well I can't speak for all 17,000,000 of us who voted Leave but, fyi, I didn't go to the polls after listening to the Horst Wessel Song and sticking a pin in my Jo Cox voodoo doll.
You keep saying this like we don't already know this.
It is, however, an incontrovertible fact that all the racists voted Leave, and that if racists hadn't all voted Leave, Remain would have won by a handy margin.
You can feel as pious as you like. You voted on the same side as all the racists, and now the racists think they've won.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
At least the UK is still going to be in the ECHR. A government trying to do that will get it in the ear from a higher court.
Theresa May is on record as saying that it's the ECHR the UK needs to leave, not the EU.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It is, however, an incontrovertible fact that all the racists voted Leave, and that if racists hadn't all voted Leave, Remain would have won by a handy margin.
How many of the 17,000,000 do you think were racist and how many do you think weren't racist?
quote:
You can feel as pious as you like.
I can't say I do really. Surprised, mainly.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It's apparently very difficult to tell, guy on the radio addressing a British female reporter of Indian descent, British birth, this afternoon as a paki went on to explain to her that "I'm not a racist".
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think the guy in Leeds doing a vox pop on the tv with a tattoo'd on his arm did acknowledge he was a nazi though.
[ 28. June 2016, 21:30: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
That was a tattoo'd symbol of Indian descent, wasn't it? No longer generally usable.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
At least the UK is still going to be in the ECHR. A government trying to do that will get it in the ear from a higher court.
Theresa May is on record as saying that it's the ECHR the UK needs to leave, not the EU.
Well, strike her off the list of people I'd vote for to be PM.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I am old enough to remember the UK pre the Common Market/EC/EU. As a nonegenarian rellie in Canada puts it - 'I've been poor and I've been rich - and rich is better. But if I had to be poor again, I reckon I could do it'. Similarly, we will doubtless continue to travel to Europe, eat its food, drink its wine, follow its fashions, even live and work there. We did before.
From the figures I can find, roughly 62% of the electorate did not vote Leave. Unfortunately a proportion of those did not vote at all. But still.
So. Live as Europeans. Express the receptivity, tolerance and diversity you consider the European ideal embodies. Go out of your way to eat garlic and take up flamenco and smile at everyone in a hijab. As it says on the Canongate Wall, work as if you live in the early days of a better nation.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
It's apparently very difficult to tell, guy on the radio addressing a British female reporter of Indian descent, British birth, this afternoon as a paki went on to explain to her that "I'm not a racist".
This reminds me of a survey conducted amongst college men in the US, where large numbers of them say how horrible rape is, and then go on to talk about how reasonable it is to force a woman to have sex if you bought her dinner, or if she got drunk with you or whatever.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
How many of the 17,000,000 do you think were racist and how many do you think weren't racist?
Given that immigration was the #1 reason for voting Leave, and that the Leave campaign deliberately used immigration (although apparently they intend to have open borders anyway) to gather support, and given that racists really hate immigration, I'm supposing a sizeable portion voted Leave based on anywhere from their fear of the Other to out-and-out fascism.
Bluntly put, the Leave campaign won because it pandered to racists. You think you've used them to win. They think they used you to win. And they're far more certain about what ought to happen post-referendum than anyone who voted Leave for economic or constitutional reasons. Leave will find it now very difficult to put the racist genie back in the bottle, where we'd (more or less) contained it.
My white European friends are frankly cacking it, thanks to your principled and high-minded stance to vote Leave. My non-white friends, more so. Perhaps you should explain yourself to them?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Given that immigration was the #1 reason for voting Leave,
According to the Ashcroft poll, it was #2.
Which I don't think changes your argument much, mind.
I think some of the leave vote was because people are feeling poor in a crappy economy. People in crappy economies vote against the incumbent government, basically everywhere, all the time. In this vote, the EU was the incumbent, and so there was a swing against it.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The UK will not be in a Year Zero situation. Several decades of history is not miraculously erased from the history books. All of the trading that currently exists between the UK and other countries will not evaporate, for the simple reason that businesses quite like trading with existing customers and will continue to do it where possible.
It won't evaporate, but it will almost inevitably be more difficult. The only way it would continue in exactly the same way would be if it was part of the common market - and Germany is clear that without freedom of movement for EU labour, that idea is dead in the water.
Agreed. Yet again you are using rational, measured language to discuss this.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
As for the assassination, with all due respect to a woman whom I admire from what little I know about her, are you seriously arguing that the entire prosperity of the UK is determined by her death?
Fuck the entire prosperity of the UK. I don't care about the entire prosperity of the UK. Well, I do. But there are other things I'd sacrifice it for. And it seems that there are other people who would sacrifice the entire prosperity of the UK for something entirely opposite to my values. And, yes, gross overstatement, they just won.
The US is a damn sight more prosperous than the UK ever was. And you don't need to spell out that it isn't in the EU. That doesn't mean I want to live in a country whose health service is as dysfunctional as the US's health service.
And it looks like the UK is about to end up in the hands of people who want to take it there.
But you know what is even more important? Not being a country where racists and neo-Nazis feel emboldened to try and dictate public policy. Where if a neo-Nazi kills a politician, the side the neo-Nazi supported doesn't go on to win the vote. It's got really very little do with prosperity. It's got a lot to do with our national identity.
It's an outside possibility that the new government will abolish the right of people to marry people of the same sex. It's not likely. But under Cameron it was impossible. The kind of people who want to abolish it are among the people who've just won.
And I have no problem with any of that. But you decided to throw in a line about the death of Jo Cox into a response about whether the UK was comparable to countries with high standards of living (countries that in fact regularly outscore the US on such matters).
I'm not arguing in favour of gross acts of racism and political assassination. I'm actually arguing in favour of the Remain side holding itself together instead of descending into the kind of base mentality that inspires people to think victory can be achieved by any means necessary.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You voted on the same side as all the racists, and now the racists think they've won.
Whereas you voted on the same side as the people who think it's okay to rig a vote. And now those people refuse to accept that they've lost.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Guardian suggestions of 6 practical things to do to improve the mess (following the Brexit fallout), #1 is stop asking for a second referendum. It does also suggest a general election should happen before 2020 too.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re Curiosity Killed's article link:
IMVHO, this might be the most important bit:
"3 Show solidarity with immigrants and refugees".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
After the headless chickening mass hysteria, it has been quite good to spend the last couple of days in meetings with business people and politicians, who whatever they voted (some openly expressed, some reasonably inferrable from what they said, mostly neither), who have just said 'whatever we think, let's get on with it'. And common consent is that rule no. 1 for getting on with it is not talking the country down.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You voted on the same side as all the racists, and now the racists think they've won.
Whereas you voted on the same side as the people who think it's okay to rig a vote.
If that was the case, Remain wouldn't have lost, would they? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
And common consent is that rule no. 1 for getting on with it is not talking the country down.
Yes, because critique of vacuous policies is a sign of 'the enemy within'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
After the headless chickening mass hysteria, it has been quite good to spend the last couple of days in meetings with business people and politicians, who whatever they voted (some openly expressed, some reasonably inferrable from what they said, mostly neither), who have just said 'whatever we think, let's get on with it'. And common consent is that rule no. 1 for getting on with it is not talking the country down.
M.
From inside the "machinery of government" that's exactly what is going on. Not "press on regardless" because the baseline for many things has been reset, but getting on with it is key, and whether we like it or not is immaterial.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You voted on the same side as all the racists, and now the racists think they've won.
Whereas you voted on the same side as the people who think it's okay to rig a vote. And now those people refuse to accept that they've lost.
Oh come off it. No-one is suggesting the army move in, send Johnson, Gove and Farage to the Tower and set up internment camps for racists and UKIP supporters (but I repeat myself). What we want now is for a vote that was achieved by legal, constitutional and democratic means to be set aside by legal, constitutional and democratic means when it becomes obvious that the consequences of said vote will be horrible and that the prospectus of the Leave campaign (and end to free movement and access to the Single Market) is frankly not achievable. Or, failing that, access to the EEA.
As a democrat I think the people should be allowed to make their own mistakes. I also think they should be allowed to try and rectify them when they realise what they have done.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Once again we're forgetting that violence is an integral part of the fascist mentality. Saying the two sides are equal is utter crap - one side is outward looking and trying to protect their brethren from racist attacks and the other side is being led by the nose by actual fascists.
If you don't want to be associated with fascists then start talking sense.
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arse
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I don't think UKIP are fascists. But there is a queasy resemblance between recent events and the 30s, hopefully this will not be our proto-fascist period. Depends on the economy, no doubt.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think UKIP are fascists. But there is a queasy resemblance between recent events and the 30s, hopefully this will not be our proto-fascist period. Depends on the economy, no doubt.
Within UKIP there is a continuum of people, but some certainly are barely hidden premium grade fascist. And their whole schtick is at root fascist. The leadership is not only interested in "getting out of the EU", they're interested in getting power in any way to push their extreme agenda.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think UKIP are fascists. But there is a queasy resemblance between recent events and the 30s, hopefully this will not be our proto-fascist period. Depends on the economy, no doubt.
Within UKIP there is a continuum of people, but some certainly are barely hidden premium grade fascist. And their whole schtick is at root fascist. The leadership is not only interested in "getting out of the EU", they're interested in getting power in any way to push their extreme agenda.
You are probably right. If the economy crashes again, I expect the brownshirts on the street toot sweet.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think UKIP are fascists. But there is a queasy resemblance between recent events and the 30s, hopefully this will not be our proto-fascist period. Depends on the economy, no doubt.
UKIP is neither disciplined nor organised enough. Mosley, Mussolini, Franco and the rest were heavy on organisation and could keep discipline among their followers (pretty much in the way the Mob or certain hard-line biker gangs do). Farage cannot, mostly because while every party has some loose cannons, UKIP has nothing but.
I doubt EDL and the like could either. Any group that devises policy while swilling lager isn't going to deliver much discipline, however nasty they may be.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And I have no problem with any of that. But you decided to throw in a line about the death of Jo Cox into a response about whether the UK was comparable to countries with high standards of living (countries that in fact regularly outscore the US on such matters).
No. I wasn't talking about whether those countries had comparably high standards of living. Neither were you explicitly. You were responding to a post in which La Vie en Rouge was explicitly complaining about racism.
Confining ourselves to the standards of living argument: the problem is not that we're now going to have standards of living comparable to that of Norway; as you point out that would be quite nice. The problem is that any attempt to get to Norway from here looks likely to be stimied by xenophobia stoked by right-wing politicians who are demonstrably unconstrained by reality or even consistency with their previous utterances.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
UKIP is neither disciplined nor organised enough. Mosley, Mussolini, Franco and the rest were heavy on organisation and could keep discipline among their followers
I agree that the level of organisation is (currently) different. But:
a) I don't see it making much difference to people being abused because of mis-conceptions about where home is. Does it matter to someone being told to "go home" or finding their local place of worship or community vandalised that the culprits were a disorganised mob encouraged by the growing racist-climate or a more organised group?
b) As it becomes to be more socially acceptable to express racist bull-shit then racist organisations will also become more socially acceptable. And, existing organisations may take on more racist views.
UKIP are currently a disorganised rabble losely united around a desire to bring the UK out of the EU. They certainly contain some racist members. If they continue to exist post-EU they will shed some of their membership (those who hold principalled views on sovereignty, for example, may well see that it's "job done"), but others will stay on. And, they'll need to find a new reason to exist. It's not inconceivable that the only card left in their deck is to continue to campaign for reduced immigration, and if so they will slide inevitably into the arms of the more vocal racists and become more organised on that issue.
quote:
I doubt EDL and the like could either. Any group that devises policy while swilling lager isn't going to deliver much discipline, however nasty they may be.
Especially when they devise policies to "protect British culture and values" while drinking a beverage from the European continent without, apparently, seeing the irony. I bet some of them stumble out of the pub and grab a curry or a kebab on the way home too.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
A bit of a category error here. On the one hand you talk about the bare result. On the other hand you talk about the anticipated consequences of the result.
No it's not.
I described what people voted for i.e. their intentions, expectations and hopes as a result of their votes.
Strictly speaking of course people voted for or against staying in the EU, but that's not actually very meaningful.
Why did I vote remain? Not because I love the EU but because I believe the benefits massively outweigh the costs.
Why did my friend vote to leave? Because he bought into the idea that our economy will be stronger outside the EU. It won't.
Now, I could, of course be wrong, but there's nothing wrong with my analysis here.
People voted with the intention of certain ends. Virtually no one will get the ends they wanted - no one will get what they voted for. Please show me why I am wrong in these assertions?
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Interesting that 51.9% of a 72% turnout is not considered to be democratic for industrial action under the Trade Union Act 2016.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You are probably right. If the economy crashes again, I expect the brownshirts on the street toot sweet.
I suspect you mean brownshorts .. but anyway, I don't credit them with that level of organisation.
However, I do think they'll try to blame some other group. In that sense, their calls on social media for people to 'unite' sounds more like a method to set the stage for blaming 'the enemy within' when it all goes wrong.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I have some positive news today. I went into Dartford, home of Poles, Sikhs, Africans, and a particularly nasty nest of far right in the past. Nothing but smiling people from many backgrounds, despite the wind squalls whipping up the pedestrian precinct. I went into the Polski Sklep for smatana, and found some nice dried mushrooms as well, and chatted about how nice it was that I could get these things which have disappeared from supermarkets. (These were not the posh mushrooms which cast a huge amount.)
Then I dropped by the garden centre. The odd notice which had annoyed me before has gone, so I cannot get at what it was. The only possibly offensive notices were about not giving change from garden centre vouchers and not accepting Scottish bank notes.
All happy - except that they didn't sell vegetable plants.
And it wasn't male strippers. It was drag queens.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
There are some of these abusers that wish we had become part of the Third Reich. They abuse the people whose forebears prevented it.
In the words of the Beatles [re WWII] "Bet you're sorry you won."
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You voted on the same side as all the racists, and now the racists think they've won.
Whereas you voted on the same side as the people who think it's okay to rig a vote. And now those people refuse to accept that they've lost.
Oh come off it. No-one is suggesting the army move in, send Johnson, Gove and Farage to the Tower and set up internment camps for racists and UKIP supporters (but I repeat myself). What we want now is for a vote that was achieved by legal, constitutional and democratic means to be set aside by legal, constitutional and democratic means when it becomes obvious that the consequences of said vote will be horrible and that the prospectus of the Leave campaign (and end to free movement and access to the Single Market) is frankly not achievable. Or, failing that, access to the EEA.
As a democrat I think the people should be allowed to make their own mistakes. I also think they should be allowed to try and rectify them when they realise what they have done.
Come off it yourself. Scotland is proposing a new referendum because circumstances have changed significantly.
Circumstances have not changed one iota when it comes to the EU since the last time you voted on the EU, which was less than a week ago. The only thing that has happened is a vote on the exact same question that you want to have another vote on.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You voted on the same side as all the racists, and now the racists think they've won.
Whereas you voted on the same side as the people who think it's okay to rig a vote.
If that was the case, Remain wouldn't have lost, would they?
I'm sure they'll try harder the next time.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You voted on the same side as all the racists, and now the racists think they've won.
Whereas you voted on the same side as the people who think it's okay to rig a vote. And now those people refuse to accept that they've lost.
Oh come off it. No-one is suggesting the army move in, send Johnson, Gove and Farage to the Tower and set up internment camps for racists and UKIP supporters (but I repeat myself). What we want now is for a vote that was achieved by legal, constitutional and democratic means to be set aside by legal, constitutional and democratic means when it becomes obvious that the consequences of said vote will be horrible and that the prospectus of the Leave campaign (and end to free movement and access to the Single Market) is frankly not achievable. Or, failing that, access to the EEA.
As a democrat I think the people should be allowed to make their own mistakes. I also think they should be allowed to try and rectify them when they realise what they have done.
Come off it yourself. Scotland is proposing a new referendum because circumstances have changed significantly.
Circumstances have not changed one iota when it comes to the EU since the last time you voted on the EU, which was less than a week ago. The only thing that has happened is a vote on the exact same question that you want to have another vote on.
Friday morning, I got up and heard the news we were out. Made breakfast, took my daughter to school, went to the gym. Came home to the news that the UK had gone from being the 5th largest economy in the world to the 6th. That was between 6.30 and 10.30 on the first day of Brexit. Nothing that has happened since has convinced me that we are headed for the broad sunlit uplands. Pretty much the totality of informed economic opinion thinks that we are headed for a recession. It is entirely clear that no-one in the Leave campaign has the slightest bloody clue what we do next because the central plank of their campaign is entirely fraudulent. Over the next few months I expect this to start percolating into the popular consciousness. There will be a backlash. At which point it would be entirely legitimate to revisit the issue.
Of course the converse could be true. Angela Merkel and the other 26 EU heads of state, determined to trade freely with the UK, will grant us access to the single market without freedom of movement. The economy will rally and the good times will begin to roll. At which point I will, of course, look rather silly. The Leavers will be entirely vindicated. No-one will publicly admit to joining Remain at dinner parties and those politicians who campaigned for it will see their stock drop. In which case, great, I don't like to be afraid for my country and would rather not see my opinions vindicated at the expense of the prosperity of my fellow counterpersons.
But, if I am right and things do turn out to be disastrous and public opinion swings decisively behind remain then it is absurd to say that there is no process which could give this change of mind democratic legitimacy. Electorates change their minds about stuff all the time. Can't see why this decision is any different to implementing the Poll Tax or joining the ERM.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
If Ireland have had a second referendum, and if Scotland intend to have a second referendum then why can't we have one as well?
If the result of our (theoretical) second referendum is still Leave then fair enough, no further ones should be held on the subject - at least not for a long time. But this one has been and continues to be particularly divisive and controversial and there is predecent for having another crack at it to clarify the position.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Just because I found it this morning, the official Leave campaign postcard through my door before the Referendum promised the £350 million paid to the EU could support the NHS and immigration control. And that my street was one of those most likely to vote Leave.
There may a case to answer on false campaigning as both those campaign promises were retracted the day after the vote.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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