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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bloody Brexiteers
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
But, you're still only saying that all we have is more information on one part of the short term consequences of exit - information that had been available prior to going to the polls last week. Which means that a further referendum today would still be on the same non-question. The only way a further referendum would ask a different question would be when there is a definition of what form of exit we get, which is something we should have had at least 6 months before going to the polls. At present we're in the limbo land of having voted in a government and waiting for them to pick their leader and write their manifesto.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
The only conceivable scenario in which I can imagine a second referendum being held (what would the question be??) would be after a General Election, which is itself months away at the earliest.
During all this time the rest of the world is not standing still. Contracts are being terminated, investment decisions are being made, the business of the EU is continuing without the involvement of the UK.
There is no Bagpuss option of putting everything back the way it was. Any reversal of the wishes expressed by the referendum will not get the UK's relationship with the EU back to where it was this time last week.
In addition, domestically, you have the issues exposed and the prejudices legitimised by the Leave vote. You can't put them back in the bottle just like that.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Indeed, last week one option was defined - Remain was clearly a vote for what we had at the time, with some small changes over time as the EU evolved.
A second referendum today with the same options would also need to have a manifesto for the Remain option, a statement of what relationship we would have with the rest of the EU since we can't go back to where we were.
On top of which we need a political commitment to campaign against the un-British racism and xenophobia that has surfaced recently. But, that's domestic policy and needs to be done regardless of the EU relationship.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, you're still only saying that all we have is more information on one part of the short term consequences of exit - information that had been available prior to going to the polls last week. Which means that a further referendum today would still be on the same non-question. The only way a further referendum would ask a different question would be when there is a definition of what form of exit we get, which is something we should have had at least 6 months before going to the polls. At present we're in the limbo land of having voted in a government and waiting for them to pick their leader and write their manifesto.
It's a bit like when my daughter became aware of the concept of stinging nettles. I told her she ought not to touch them but, blithely dismissing a 'Project Fear' based on expert opinions she decided to touch one anyway and promptly burst into tears. She now avoids stinging nettles. Given that the government's attitude and that of the Leave campaign to activating Article 50 presently appears to be "touch these two wires together and I destroy the EU forever... but do I have the right?" there may well be sufficient time for "information in the public domain" to turn into "why didn't people tell me this would happen!?"
I think the most likely scenario, at this point, is a Tory government with a working majority, membership of the EEA on not terribly advantageous terms, an economic downturn and a bunch of angry nativists banging on about betrayal and taking out their frustrations on immigrants and foreign nationals but until it happens the only justifiable stance that I can see is pessimism of the intellect and optimism of the will. If we fight, we'll probably lose but if we don't fight we'll certainly lose.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Indeed, last week one option was defined - Remain was clearly a vote for what we had at the time, with some small changes over time as the EU evolved.
Strictly speaking, Remain was a vote for the EU as modified by the epoch-making and fundamental reforms Cameron had negotiated.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
there may well be sufficient time for "information in the public domain" to turn into "why didn't people tell me this would happen!?"
Except people did say it would happen. Repeatedly.
If you fail an exam you don't get to resit the paper by claiming that you now know the answers and weren't told them before - especially when your teacher gave you all the information you needed to answer the questions. There are times when you can't go back, but only forward.
(And, I know you can resit exams - but you'll get a different set of questions. Any "resit" of the referendum would also have different questions)
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Indeed, last week one option was defined - Remain was clearly a vote for what we had at the time, with some small changes over time as the EU evolved.
Strictly speaking, Remain was a vote for the EU as modified by the epoch-making and fundamental reforms Cameron had negotiated.
True, they were a remarkably extensive set of reforms. But, it was still known.
It doesn't alter the fact that the referendum itself was a unique democratic exercise (at least in my adult lifetime in the UK). When else have we entered an election where the candidates don't have a manifesto?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Given that the government's attitude and that of the Leave campaign to activating Article 50 presently appears to be "touch these two wires together and I destroy the EU forever... but do I have the right?"
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) for the Doctor Who reference.
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
If Ireland have had a second referendum, and if Scotland intend to have a second referendum then why can't we have one as well?
Because you want a referendum in exactly the same situation as your first referendum on exactly the same question. This is not the case for Ireland or Scotland.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
If Ireland have had a second referendum, and if Scotland intend to have a second referendum then why can't we have one as well?
Because you want a referendum in exactly the same situation as your first referendum on exactly the same question. This is not the case for Ireland or Scotland.
Same question but in a different situation. Since the result was announced any number of market indicators have shown that the UK is going to be less properous for some years and that many of the Brexiteers promises were hollow. I doubt many votes will switch but many who didn't vote before may vote given a second chance.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
But, it was known that the economy was going to tank (at least in the short term). The voters were told this. It was also known that many of the promises of the Leave campaign were not going to be fulfilled, and based on lies. The voters were told this too. The facts on which people chose to vote haven't changed, they've just happened rather than being predicted to happen. What will actually change the question is for the Leave campaign to appoint their leader and write their manifesto, both of which they should have done at least 6 months ago.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
And a warm thank-you to Boris for landing us in this mess then deciding he doesn't want to take responsibility for sorting it out. A lot of people are going to be quite annoyed with him after today.
Boris sold a lot of people a dream. Unfortunately, in the later stages of the campaign it was looking increasingly threadbare. At least he had the sense to admit he wasn't the right person for the job.
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
We need a "Johnson you utter sack of shit" thread, the only slight consolation is that it's all blown up in his face and now he'll never be PM. Resigning his seat tomorrow?
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Resigning his seat tomorrow?
That would be the honourable thing. So I think it's safe to say he won't.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Resigning his seat tomorrow?
That would be the honourable thing. So I think it's safe to say he won't.
Hope not. I'm looking forward to the bit when he stands up outside Downing Street, after meeting a victorious Teresa May, to explain to the assembled hacks that his lifetimes ambition has always been to serve as a Parliamentary Undersecretary at the Department of Work and Pensions.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Dave has run, Boris has run.
Leaders of men/women? I trowe not.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
What the fuck do the Tories have to do for the mud to stick? How many souls have been sacrificed to Satan to create this much Teflon?
FFS. They are about to use Johnson as the scapegoat, meaning the rest of them save their miserable, worthless hides and sail on in government as if nothing has happened. Apart from the fact that a fair chunk of them were involved in peddling the worthless lies for which Johnson acted as mouthpiece.
What a shower of shits. Skillful ones, but total excrement nonetheless.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Since the result was announced any number of market indicators have shown that the UK is going to be less properous for some years and that many of the Brexiteers promises were hollow.
One of the claims made before the vote was that the stock market would crash. Of course, the stock market can go down as well as up but I think I'm right in saying that the FTSE-100 recovered all its post-Referendum losses yesterday, i.e. stock market armageddon lasted six days. We'll see what the future holds.
I almost wish we could all vote again so that Britain could vote Leave for a second time. That would hopefully shut up most of the complainers. Not all of them, though, probably.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I think I'm right in saying that the FTSE-100 recovered all its post-Referendum losses yesterday, i.e. stock market armageddon lasted six days. We'll see what the future holds.
It depends if you take into account the fall in the value of the pound, apparently. (In other words, the price in pounds has recovered, but if you converted it into other currencies the value has fallen.)
The FTSE-250 hadn't recovered as of this afternoon. That is, the value of the very secure companies is recovering; that of only moderately secure companies less so.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Also, what happened to the stock so far is just from the initial shock. Regardless of the final levels, expect more dips and surges as the process continues.
Even if the markets were exactly the same today as before the vote, it would be fairly stupid to claim a recovery.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
The Bank of England wouldn't be considering interest rate cuts if they weren't afraid the British economy will go into recession.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Beenster
Shipmate
# 242
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Posted
A recession has been predicted, but nothing is certain at the moment - not even some of the doom. My sense is that it will come, but it will take a while to kick in, partly due to the two quarters - ie 6 months - needed to measure a recession by definition.
I woke up this morning early. A week ago I woke up at 3am and watched the results pour in. Today I woke up at 5am and wondered where we were - and how far we had come or gone in a week. It's no time at all but the week has been so bruising.
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
One of the claims made before the vote was that the stock market would crash. Of course, the stock market can go down as well as up but I think I'm right in saying that the FTSE-100 recovered all its post-Referendum losses yesterday, i.e. stock market armageddon lasted six days. We'll see what the future holds.
I almost wish we could all vote again so that Britain could vote Leave for a second time. That would hopefully shut up most of the complainers. Not all of them, though, probably.
If you listen carefully, it is the media who have made a fuss about the stock market, no economist as far as I know has even mentioned it. It's not really relevant. As said above, you need at least 6 months to see the real effect. In reality it's the medium term that people are worried about.
This is a good summary. (Wren-Lewis uses the term 'Mediamacro' to describe how economic issues are reported which is completely at odds with the way economics actually works)
You may be right that a majority of people would still vote leave. It does however remain a bad idea.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
5 years time will be the real test when trade deals with the rest of the world are reaping the rewards. And of course the effect of the EU shutting us out, if indeed they do.
That is presuming we still have an EU.
If Leavers and Remainers are still bickering after all that time someone can say --- nah, nah nan nah...told you so ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It'll take more than 5 years to arrange trade deals with anyone. For a start, we'll need to find people to conduct trade negotiations on our behalf, it's been 40 years since we've needed people to do that (at present some of that £250m or so per week pays people to do that for the whole EU). Although we could go into such negotiations without a qualified negotiating team, but that would rely on the goodwill of others to strike a deal that's good for the UK.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Not sure why we are bothering to explain. If reason or logic were a factor, they wouldn't have voted to Leave
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Possibly the same reason why I still have the REMAIN poster in my window. To remind people that we didn't all vote for this mess, we weren't all fooled by the lies and deceit.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I can see why the old industrial areas voted Leave. They feel abandoned, unheard. For 40 years they have been derelict, with low-paid jobs, poor services, and then austerity on top of that. Voting Labour or UKIP tends to get absorbed into the cotton wool of Parliament, so here was a chance to say fuck off to the Establishment. It might be cutting off your nose to spite your face, as well.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Possibly the same reason why I still have the REMAIN poster in my window. To remind people that we didn't all vote for this mess, we weren't all fooled by the lies and deceit.
Yep, that's the same reason why during the Junior Doctors' dispute I started using my "Don't blame me, I voted Labour" mug at work...
AFZ
[ 01. July 2016, 17:17: Message edited by: alienfromzog ]
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
A recession has been predicted, but nothing is certain at the moment - not even some of the doom. My sense is that it will come, but it will take a while to kick in, partly due to the two quarters - ie 6 months - needed to measure a recession by definition.
I got to hear Mark Zandi's (Moody's Analytics) talk this Tuesday on the forecast economic effects of the Brexit, and he puts the chance of UK recession at 50% for 2017 (and, as you say, he's putting the first signs of the impact at the end of this year). Their macro model puts the impact on the UK GDP at about -0.5%. The impact should be limited largely to the UK with a relatively minor impact on the rest of the EU. The US and the rest of the world will hardly notice the change economically (unless a bunch of other countries follow suit which would be bad for the world economy as a whole).
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It'll take more than 5 years to arrange trade deals with anyone. For a start, we'll need to find people to conduct trade negotiations on our behalf, .....
Well we'd better get weaving because word is the several Countries have already expressed a strong interest in doing business with us. Big fish like India, Australia and New Zealand.
The popular notion pedalled since last week that a bunch of KKK coffin dodgers and racist chavs have unwittingly voted Britain into financial oblivion is, I think, total balderdash . In fact some are already saying that Mr. C himself was a closet Leaver with sections of the press calling him Dodgy Dave
[ 01. July 2016, 19:57: Message edited by: rolyn ]
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
In fact some are already saying that Mr. C himself was a closet Leaver with sections of the press calling him Dodgy Dave
And he was willing to sacrifice his career and reputation in order to bring about a Leave victory? Or was he planning to quit anyway?
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It'll take more than 5 years to arrange trade deals with anyone. For a start, we'll need to find people to conduct trade negotiations on our behalf, .....
Well we'd better get weaving because word is the several Countries have already expressed a strong interest in doing business with us. Big fish like India, Australia and New Zealand.
The popular notion pedalled since last week that a bunch of KKK coffin dodgers and racist chavs have unwittingly voted Britain into financial oblivion is, I think, total balderdash . In fact some are already saying that Mr. C himself was a closet Leaver with sections of the press calling him Dodgy Dave
Well, I have to say this is the first time in my life I've heard my country referred to as a 'big fish'. It feels like a bit of a backhanded compliment, though, to be honest. And as I noted on the Farage thread, in reference to his metaphorical greasy hand of friendship being stuck in our face - why would you go back for seconds?
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
[QUOTE]Well we'd better get weaving because word is the several Countries have already expressed a strong interest in doing business with us. Big fish like India, Australia and New Zealand.
Don't forget that here in Aust, today's election day. I don't know what "the word" might be, certainly no publicity to it here, but if there's a vote in it, a pollie may say anything.
[ 01. July 2016, 23:18: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The only way a further referendum would ask a different question would be when there is a definition of what form of exit we get, which is something we should have had at least 6 months before going to the polls. .
Article 50 is set up so that you only know the terms when you are halfway out of the exit door with no way to come back. On leaving for trade purposes the UK will be a brand new country following WTO rules which will hollow out our financial industry.
Only a fool would activate Article 50 but this is where we have come to.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The only way a further referendum would ask a different question would be when there is a definition of what form of exit we get, which is something we should have had at least 6 months before going to the polls. .
Article 50 is set up so that you only know the terms when you are halfway out of the exit door with no way to come back. On leaving for trade purposes the UK will be a brand new country following WTO rules which will hollow out our financial industry.
Only a fool would activate Article 50 but this is where we have come to.
So what would happen, in terms of UK-EU relations, were the UK to just ignore the results of the referendum, and never ask for the activation of Article 50? Could they just continue on in the EU as before, or is there some rule that in the event of a Leave vote, the country which held the referendum has to leave?
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
And he was willing to sacrifice his career and reputation in order to bring about a Leave victory? Or was he planning to quit anyway?
No one said he had to go. In fact most wanted him to stay so as to avoid the political turmoil we are now seeing. He knew that Referendum was going to be tight so he'd been a fool not to have a plan B.
I'm somehow sure that if the behind-the-scenes Power mongers really feared throwing this bone to the masses, esp in light of the refugee crisis, could go the wrong way then somehow they'd have found a way to shelve it. A bit like the Westminster paedo business, just fudge it and fudge it until everyone forgets about it.
This whole malarkey stinks more than the dead fish the EU made us throw back in the sea.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Anyone at today's Brexit protest? If it was organized on social media I never saw anything about it.
It was on Facebook apparently - I knew about it from the Guardian article linked to earlier on this thread. I didn't go, but knew people there according to my Twitter feed.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
So what would happen, in terms of UK-EU relations, were the UK to just ignore the results of the referendum, and never ask for the activation of Article 50? Could they just continue on in the EU as before, or is there some rule that in the event of a Leave vote, the country which held the referendum has to leave?
That's an easy one legally. Tricky politically.
The EU is a organisation made up of sovereign nations. There is no mechanism as I understand it for throwing countries out. The provision of Article 50 is that countries notify the rest of their intent to leave. The mechanisms leading up to that are absolutely a matter for the sovereign nation and no-one else's business.
The UK constitution is clear that Parliament is sovereign. The activation of the article falls within the royal prerogative - i.e. execute powers that are exercised by the government in the form of the Prime Minister and/or the Cabinet. The bill that created the referendum could have compelled the PM to act in the a event of a Leave vote. It didn't and hence it has no legal power. Parliament could pass a bill to stop the PM from activating Article 50. Or the PM (whoever that is) could just do nothing.
That's the legal facts. The internal and external politics are somewhat different and very unpredictable. However, much as I would love to see some way back, I do not think it conceivable. However I will still mourn for my country when it actually happens.
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It'll take more than 5 years to arrange trade deals with anyone. For a start, we'll need to find people to conduct trade negotiations on our behalf, .....
Well we'd better get weaving because word is the several Countries have already expressed a strong interest in doing business with us. Big fish like India, Australia and New Zealand.
The popular notion pedalled since last week that a bunch of KKK coffin dodgers and racist chavs have unwittingly voted Britain into financial oblivion is, I think, total balderdash . In fact some are already saying that Mr. C himself was a closet Leaver with sections of the press calling him Dodgy Dave
Well, I have to say this is the first time in my life I've heard my country referred to as a 'big fish'. It feels like a bit of a backhanded compliment, though, to be honest. And as I noted on the Farage thread, in reference to his metaphorical greasy hand of friendship being stuck in our face - why would you go back for seconds?
That was exactly my response too anoesis ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Although...Te Ika a Maui and all that.
I hear that John Key and the government have offered our trade negotiators to the UK. So that's something.
*Te Ika a Maui is the Maori name for the North Island of New Zealand and translates roughly as 'the Fish of Maui'.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
I enjoyed this comparison between two leave campaigns despite depressing me.
https://medium.com/@kirstymhall/brexit-was-a-con-67532113a7c#.kr5fj8dj0
The first part of the essay seems to be a rehashing of the argument that the voters got conned, because the Leave side didn't present a detailed enough plan about how the Brexit would work.
Thing is, though, the Leave plan apparently WAS detailed enough for the 52% who voted for that option, otherwise they wouldn't have voted that way.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Thing is, though, the Leave plan apparently WAS detailed enough for the 52% who voted for that option, otherwise they wouldn't have voted that way.
OK, go and run a survey. Ask the 52% what they voted for, and find out if there is an identifiable detailed plan for Brexit there. Did all 52%, for example, vote for significant reductions in immigration? Did they all vote for remaining in a free trade area with the rest of the EU? Did they vote for £350m per week to be spent on the NHS?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I think many hands strayed to the Leave box because somewhere in our heads we could hear Cameron's voice saying The EU needs reforming . Problem for mr. C being most suspected he had no more chance of reforming it than he did of keeping yunnkers out.
It would be interesting to know where the loyalties of the media mogels lie. For quite some time there have been subliminal messages, particularly from radio news bulletins, that I get the feeling may have helped the sucess of UKip and the Brexit campaign. Then of course there is the Internet .....
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It would be interesting to know where the loyalties of the media mogels lie.
Fear sells, this is the main motivation.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
Good news as the EU give up on TTIP we might get it in the brand new Brexit world.
[ 09. July 2016, 08:04: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It would be interesting to know where the loyalties of the media mogels lie.
Was that a mis-type for "moguls" or "mongrels"? Could easily be either or both.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
OK, go and run a survey. Ask the 52% what they voted for, and find out if there is an identifiable detailed plan for Brexit there. Did all 52%, for example, vote for significant reductions in immigration? Did they all vote for remaining in a free trade area with the rest of the EU? Did they vote for £350m per week to be spent on the NHS?
I have an elderly relative who voted for Leave and his reasons were vague in the extreme; just a general "let's make Britain great again." He was quite clear that he didn't have any specific short term reasons, indeed he doesn't expect to live to see the "benefits" of Leave. He's always had a distrust of "over-regulation" and "red tape" so I guess he thought he was voting for less of that.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
When I first thought about voting Leave my reason was basically that the EU needed reform, attempts so far had been unsuccessful, we seemed to have continually negotiated opt-outs for this, that and the other, and there was no guarantee that any further attempts at reform would be any more successful. I was uncomfortable with the idea of "ever closer union" and a European superstate and would have been happier with just a simple, single trading market.
Also I quite liked the idea that more money could be spent on the NHS.
It then occurred to me that if you're outside the door you have no say in what goes on inside the room, the money that could be spent on the NHS probably wouldn't be, TTIP would very likely be on the cards, and the loss of EU grants would hit agriculture (round here it's farming country). Also, Boris was starting to come across as flaky and delusional, and I didn't like or trust his line-up, so I changed my mind.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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