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Source: (consider it) Thread: Bloody Brexiteers
rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It's also an argument that ignores the frequency of Brexit language in more recent hate crimes, the documented cases of phrases like "we won" in racist attacks.

The underlying and irrational sentiment of 'Keep them out' goes back a lot lot further than Brexit and the 05 terror attacks.

Brexit didn't create it, it was already there. The platform had noticeably started to build under Blair with the media hype of mass immigration. Cameron thought Let's have it out and he blew it. Triumphalism in the event of a Brexit win was invertible. Unfortunately there is only a thin line between that and the racial incidents which have occurred.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It's also an argument that ignores the frequency of Brexit language in more recent hate crimes, the documented cases of phrases like "we won" in racist attacks.

The underlying and irrational sentiment of 'Keep them out' goes back a lot lot further than Brexit and the 05 terror attacks.

Brexit didn't create it, it was already there. The platform had noticeably started to build under Blair with the media hype of mass immigration. Cameron thought Let's have it out and he blew it. Triumphalism in the event of a Brexit win was invertible. Unfortunately there is only a thin line between that and the racial incidents which have occurred.

Because the fuel was already placed does not excuse the match being thrown.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Rocinante
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Getting sick and tired of people describing the referendum result as clear. It was not fucking clear! Yes, 17 million people voted in favour of leaving for innumerable bizarre reasons, but 16 million of us voted against. If it had been a close-run general election rather than a close-run referendum, we the 16 million would have our views represented in parliament by opposition MPs. The government would have a hard time getting its legislation passed, and would have to make some compromises. But because the pig-fancier decided to cave in to his lunatic fringe and concede a referendum, we have to just suck it up. Well sorry, but no. This is the stupidest thing this country has ever done (in peacetime at least)and I will never be reconciled to it.

Referendums are not democracy, they are fucking tyranny. The one positive thing to come out of this fiasco is that there will NEVER be another referendum in the UK. Future prime ministers will remember the humiliating end of Hameron's career and shudder.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Getting sick and tired of people describing the referendum result as clear.

If 51.89% of voters had voted Remain, would you still claim that it was an 'unclear' result...?
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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
The one positive thing to come out of this fiasco is that there will NEVER be another referendum in the UK.

It appears that Nicola Sturgeon hasn't got the memo.
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MarsmanTJ
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If 51.89% of voters had voted Remain, would you still claim that it was an 'unclear' result...?

Yes! But I'm not the only one who considers these figures unclear and worthy of a second referendum...
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Rocinante
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Getting sick and tired of people describing the referendum result as clear.

If 51.89% of voters had voted Remain, would you still claim that it was an 'unclear' result...?
Yes I would. It would have settled nothing and the whole wretched business would probably have been repeated in a few years' time. It would certainly not have altered my belief that referendums are crude and undemocratic. That's why dictators have always been so keen on them.

Ok, the Scots may finally get the result that they should have got last time (Project Fear is now a thoroughly busted flush), but no UK/English prime minister is ever going to sign up to another referendum on anything.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Getting sick and tired of people describing the referendum result as clear.

If 51.89% of voters had voted Remain, would you still claim that it was an 'unclear' result...?
Anything less than 40:60 (on a very high turnout) is unclear - and even then I'd doubt the clarity. Regardless of which way it went in relation to my personal vote.

And, given we're still waiting to find out what the actual question was, it's even less clear.

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Sioni Sais
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If any one thing pisses me off it's that there will be no vote in Parliament to invoke Article 50.(see below photo of Boris Johnson) So much for democracy: it took an act of parliament to sign up to the Lisbon Treaty, which took us "in", and now we are coming "out" on the Prime Minister's say so. An unelected Prime Minister to boot.

I'm a civil servant and this is bloody difficult to stomach.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Rocinante
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Starting to think that this whole stinking, toxic mess that is Dave 'n' George's legacy can only be resolved with a general election. Fuck the FTPA, that was just to make sure the ConDem coalition lasted more than 6 months. Let the parties set out rival manifestos as to what Brexit means; let the Libs and SNP stand on a "no Brexit" platform. We had an election in 74 because Ted Heath had a hissy fit. This is surely a more serious crisis.
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
An unelected Prime Minister to boot.

Come on now, Sioni. The Prime Minister was elected by the voters of her constituency in the same way that every other Prime Minister in recent memory has been.

The fact that she wasn't the leader of her party at the last General Election is as irrelevant of Mrs. May as it was of Mr. Brown, Mr. Major, or several others.

If it's an electoral mandate you're worried about, Mr. Cameron won in 2015 with a promise to hold a referendum on the EU. Should it be so much of a surprise that the government has held that referendum, and now intends to take action based on it?

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Alan Cresswell

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Well, Cameron was (is) an idiot. The manifesto promise was fine, it kept his party together long enough to form a government. But, he could have put a bit of thought into the issue before rushing to get the voters answer to an un-defined question. Would it have been so much to ensure the bill had a clearly defined super-majority requirement such that there would be no question about the result? Would it have been too much to spend the time to allow the Brexit campaign to draw up a statement of what sort of Brexit we were voting on?

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Would it have been too much to spend the time to allow the Brexit campaign to draw up a statement of what sort of Brexit we were voting on?

The Brexit people were careful to leave that undefined (because they knew full well that no specific Brexit model would win). One can certainly blame the Remain campaign (of which Mr. Cameron was of course a leading light) for not making more of this issue.
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Imaginary Friend

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This illustrates my major frustration with the whole sorry debacle. From the outset, it has not actually been about what's best for the long term future of the UK. For those that matter, it's been about short-term political calculations (Call Me Dave), personal career advancement (BJ, and I'm so so sooooo glad that blew up in his face), attention whoring (Farage), and a chance to beat up on people they don't like (basically the whole of the Right).

So given that those were the motivations, details like whether we'd rejoin the Single Market really don't matter. But on the other hand, we'll get our blue passport covers back, so it's all good.

They're narcissistic, cretinous fucktards, every single one of them.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
This illustrates my major frustration with the whole sorry debacle. From the outset, it has not actually been about what's best for the long term future of the UK.

I don't think that's entirely right. There were certainly bullshit personal power games going on, but IMO plenty of the Brexiteers are genuinely of the opinion that Brexit is in the UK's best long-term interest.

I think those people made a judgement that they wouldn't be able to win a public debate based on that, so chose to let the forces of confusion and legerdemain help them achieve their aims.

It's bad for British politics that they were playing bullshit games in stead of trying to win an honest argument, and it's an even worse reflection on the Remainers that nobody called them on this.

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Rocinante
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I know several Brexit voters (we're still on speaking terms, just) who think that our future is now rosy and everyone will live happily ever after. None of them is able to explain how this will be brought about, even in the broadest terms. It's just a case of thinking the grass is always greener outside the fence. Oh, and we've taken back control, apparently.

This applies to the fucktards at the top just as much as the useful idiots who voted for them. That's why we need a new mandate IMO.

The treaty of Lisbon was designed to make leaving the EU as painful as possible. We're about to be made an example of.

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M.
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I voted leave for a number of reasons, the main one being that having worked - not constantly, but consistently - with the EU over some 20-odd years, I didn't like what I saw.

But I admit that there was a part of me that just wanted to lob a grenade. I thought that was unmeritorious and tried to discount it in my decision making. However, all the grizzling about it since is making me change my mind.

And yes, I realise that makes me deluded* ill educated** racist scum***

M.
*About so many things, I imagine
** I'm not sure what the bar is here
*** You'd have to ask others about that

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Would it have been too much to spend the time to allow the Brexit campaign to draw up a statement of what sort of Brexit we were voting on?

The Brexit people were careful to leave that undefined (because they knew full well that no specific Brexit model would win).
Which is exactly why Cameron should have made it a condition of the referendum. He put it on the election manifesto to stay in No 10. There was nothing stopping him announcing the referendum subject to the Brexit side producing a definition of what they would seek if the vote went their way. If the Brexit side couldn't do that (and, as you say, the debate would likely set the Brexiters into a rate of schism that would make even Presbyterians heads spin) then Cameron could call the referendum off and be able to say "we tried to fulfill the manifesto promise to hold a referendum, but the Brexit side (over whom we have no influence) blew it". On the off-chance that Brexiters could unite around a Brexit manifesto then they would likely not have achieved as much electoral support, and Remain would have won. Both exactly what Hameron wanted. He started off playing a game with the electorate, then made the bizarre decision to stop playing.

You're right that the Remain campaign should have played on it a lot more. It featured heavily in my comments on Brexit, this total absence of a manifesto for Brexit. But, I'm just one small voice online - and, it wasn't really much of a discussion since, apart from a few people here, to the best of my knowledge I don't know anyone who voted for Brexit. Everyone at church, at work, my Facebook friends who had ever expressed an opinion were always going to vote Remain.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Rocinante
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quote:
Originally posted by M.:

And yes, I realise that makes me deluded* ill educated** racist scum***

M.

One of the brexit voters I know is an intelligent, post-graduate qualified professional person of British Asian ethnicitiy. So I would never make that accusation which you have chosen to randomly make about yourself for reasons which I can only guess at.

I think that this person's reasons for voting leave, as far as I can determine without using enhanced interrogation techniques, essentially amounted to "Things need to change. This is a change, let's do it."

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
to the best of my knowledge I don't know anyone who voted for Brexit. Everyone at church, at work, my Facebook friends who had ever expressed an opinion were always going to vote Remain.

I'm starting to seriously wonder which way is up though.

Several of my friends who've been more vocal about how dreadful the whole thing is on social media have admitted to me privately/down the pub that they in fact voted leave... The thinking from the twenty/thirty something professional youth seems to be that you say one thing out loud to keep your job/friends/network of "useful" connections, and do another in the privacy of the polling booth.

This "when I say I voted Remain I'm lying" has come up with more and more frequency for me in the past couple of weeks.

Either A some people are starting to get used to the idea and trying to retrospectively own it now the sky hasn't fallen in (yet) or B they really have been "virtue signalling" all the time and did vote Leave.

Cynicism, thy name is voter.

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
And yes, I realise that makes me deluded* ill educated** racist scum***

No.

But you'll have to live with the fact that you voted alongside all the deluded ill-educated racist scum. I'm sure you'll cope.

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Forward the New Republic

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Getting sick and tired of people describing the referendum result as clear.

If 51.89% of voters had voted Remain, would you still claim that it was an 'unclear' result...?
Yes. What would've been clear and still is clear is how unsatisfactory and thoroughly undemocratic referendums of this sort are.

You mention Nicola Sturgeon and her urging of the unfairness of the result on Scotland; and it's the same for Northern Ireland. Apparently we voted for 'remain', by almost 10%, but within the context of the wider vote this stands for nothing. However, as our First Minister is the leader of the DUP who wanted out of the EU, there isn't the same noise being made here, as in Scotland. She isn't going to represent the 1 and a quarter million who wanted to remain.

All this mess and partisanship demonstrates how flawed referendum is, especially on such a crucial issue.

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Getting sick and tired of people describing the referendum result as clear.

If 51.89% of voters had voted Remain, would you still claim that it was an 'unclear' result...?
No, because if I'd been in charge so it actually mattered what I called it, I'd have said at the outset that a 2/3 majority would be required for what is a massive constitutional change. This is common practice, is it not?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
And yes, I realise that makes me deluded* ill educated** racist scum***

No.

But you'll have to live with the fact that you voted alongside all the deluded ill-educated racist scum. I'm sure you'll cope.

Don't ignore the well-educated, nay expensively educated, racist scum. Plenty of them around too.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
No, because if I'd been in charge so it actually mattered what I called it, I'd have said at the outset that a 2/3 majority would be required for what is a massive constitutional change. This is common practice, is it not?

No, not really.

The recent referendum in Scotland - a potential constitutional change of similar magnitude - required only a simple majority of those voting. The 1975 referendum in support of joining the EEC required only a simple majority. The 2011 Alternative vote referendum required only a simple majority of those voting. All the referenda on devolution for Wales required only a simple majority.

I don't think there's any kind of precedent in UK law for a referendum requiring a supermajority, is there?

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Lyda*Rose

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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:

And yes, I realise that makes me deluded* ill educated** racist scum***

M.

One of the brexit voters I know is an intelligent, post-graduate qualified professional person of British Asian ethnicitiy. So I would never make that accusation which you have chosen to randomly make about yourself for reasons which I can only guess at.

I think that this person's reasons for voting leave, as far as I can determine without using enhanced interrogation techniques, essentially amounted to "Things need to change. This is a change, let's do it."

Unfortunately, there are people on our side of the Pond who will vote for the Donald for the same reason. In fact, he has been trying to appeal to minorities by asking "What have you got to lose?" And he'll probably snag a few votes that way. [Roll Eyes]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Alan Cresswell

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That's what happens when you let the people have a say in who governs them and the policies they enact. Bloody democracy, worst possible form of government, except for all the rest.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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rolyn
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Old mcDonald made me laugh today. Still banging on about the wall on the Mexicain border and making Mexico pay for it. How the fuck is that supposed to happen.

Does give a person the warm fuzzies though, shutting oneself in. Since Brexit we have seen terrorist activity on mainland Europe, we see boatloads of people still tryinging head this way from just about anywhere.
Call me racist scummy if you want but I've made the transition from regr-exit to feeling glad that Leave took it.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:

I think that this person's reasons for voting leave, as far as I can determine without using enhanced interrogation techniques, essentially amounted to "Things need to change. This is a change, let's do it."

Which is an incredibly stupid reason.
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Don't ignore the well-educated, nay expensively educated, racist scum. Plenty of them around too.

Cameron is expensively educated, as is the Bo-Jo the Clown. So yeah.

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:

Call me racist scummy if you want but I've made the transition from regr-exit to feeling glad that Leave took it.

I'll call you callous and stupid. The callous should be obvious. As should to the stupid, it should also be apparent, but then if you were exhibiting intelligent commentary...
The fallout thus far as been negative, the rational prediction shows no reason it should go well when negotiations actually commence. Gloating that "other" people have died not only shows you to be a tosser, but underlines the fact that you have little comprehension as to how things work.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
And yes, I realise that makes me deluded* ill educated** racist scum***

No.

But you'll have to live with the fact that you voted alongside all the deluded ill-educated racist scum. I'm sure you'll cope.

If that's the case then, presumably, a good chunk of these people are the sort who have always voted Labour and will vote for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party when they get the chance. How do you feel about that?
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
How do you feel about that?

Remarkably sanguine.

Because Brexit was, and is, fuelled by racism, nationalism and xenophobia. That's why you'll find all the racist, nationalist xenophobes under the Leave banner.

Voting Labour however, is voting for a broadly positive collection of policies to increase the common good, whatever your religion, colour or ethnicity. If racists want to vote Labour, then okay - but they won't get what they want.

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Forward the New Republic

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
I know several Brexit voters (we're still on speaking terms, just)

I'm curious. Was the 'speaking terms' reference a jokey, throwaway comment or have you really struggled to continue speaking to such people?
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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Since Brexit we have seen terrorist activity on mainland Europe, we see boatloads of people still tryinging head this way from just about anywhere.

And, before Brexit there was terrorist activity on mainland Europe. And, boatloads of people trying to cross into Europe. Your point is, what? Other than demonstrating your stupidity.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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Again that word "stupidity". Didn't work against brexit, hasn't worked against the rise of trump.

[ 01. September 2016, 20:15: Message edited by: rolyn ]

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Rocinante
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# 18541

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
I know several Brexit voters (we're still on speaking terms, just)

I'm curious. Was the 'speaking terms' reference a jokey, throwaway comment or have you really struggled to continue speaking to such people?
It was sort of jokey, but I really want to find out why people I like and respect would choose to do something (to my mind)so bizarre and dangerous. Generally they don't really know themselves and don't really want to talk about it and there have been sharp exchanges along the lines of "I just feel we should have our country back, O.K?" or some such. I have enough social skills not to point out that this is nothing more than a slogan, so these conversations have been unsatisfactory to both parties.

One colleague made a reasonably rational argument based on parliamentary sovereignty, but I had to point out that if he really believed parliament to be sovereign, then EU membership should be decided by a free vote in the House of Commons, not by a referendum. This went down like a lead balloon.

My impression is that Brexit voters thought the referendum was a great opportunity to give the powers-that-be a kicking, and have now largely forgotten about it, leaving the rest of us surveying the shattered ruins of, in some cases, our life's work; or at least our image of our country as a modern, grown-up, outward-looking place. But the plural of anecdote is not data.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Again that word "stupidity". Didn't work against brexit, hasn't worked against the rise of trump.

You're conflating two different things. It may be the case that voting for Brexit, or for Trump, is "stupid". It is almost certainly the case that telling someone that a vote for Brexit or Trump is "stupid" won't dissuade them for voting that way.
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rolyn
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# 16840

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LilBuddha
If you can find a post of mine "gloating" over the death of other people then print it. Accepting you may have a different definition of the word to myself.
Callousness is allowing people to think that giving all they own to crooked small boat owners will give them a ticket to paradise, when in reality they risk being drown or at best holed up in squalid conditions for an indefinite period.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
LilBuddha
If you can find a post of mine "gloating" over the death of other people then print it. Accepting you may have a different definition of the word to myself.

This bit:
quote:
Does give a person the warm fuzzies though, shutting oneself in. Since Brexit we have seen terrorist activity on mainland Europe
quote:

Callousness is allowing people to think that giving all they own to crooked small boat owners will give them a ticket to paradise, when in reality they risk being drown or at best holed up in squalid conditions for an indefinite period.

That others are callous as well does not excuse your "warm fuzzies".

[ 01. September 2016, 21:54: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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{Sends respectful inquiry 'cross the Pond.}

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
How do you feel about that?

Remarkably sanguine.

Because Brexit was, and is, fuelled by racism, nationalism and xenophobia. That's why you'll find all the racist, nationalist xenophobes under the Leave banner.

Voting Labour however, is voting for a broadly positive collection of policies to increase the common good, whatever your religion, colour or ethnicity. If racists want to vote Labour, then okay - but they won't get what they want.

If I may ask, mightn't Brexit *also* be about heritage, nostalgia, national pride, and not wanting things to change?

From Ship discussions and news over the last few months, it seems that might be the case.

I gather much of the Remain and EU constructs is about globalization, but what definitions are being used? Stable peace? Sending companies and jobs to other countries? Unemployed people having more places to look for work? No borders? (Which I find boggling when it's between *countries*, and normal between the 50 states of America.) Getting freshly-baked croissants sent over via the Chunnel, and sending back a wheel of true Cheddar cheese, and having any taxes be reasonable?

And how does that ideal of no borders work out practically? If Europeans don't have to present passports nor ID, how do officials know the real foreigners whose papers they *do* need to check???

{As thanks, leaves a big basket of San Francisco sourdough bread, assorted California cheese and produce, Ghirardelli chocolate, and some tourist t-shirts and trinkets.}

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
If I may ask, mightn't Brexit *also* be about heritage, nostalgia, national pride, and not wanting things to change?

It would be interesting to see if anyone voted for the biggest constitutional change in a generation for reasons of "not wanting things to change".

quote:

And how does that ideal of no borders work out practically? If Europeans don't have to present passports nor ID, how do officials know the real foreigners whose papers they *do* need to check???

Practically, you need to produce a passport, and an appropriate visa if you're not an EU citizen (or state that you qualify for entry under a visa waiver scheme), when you enter the Schengen zone. Once inside you do not need to produce any documentation to travel between different areas. It's practically no different from arriving in the US at JFK then travelling to California ... you wouldn't need to produce your passport to cross from one state to another, and you don't need to produce your passport to cross from Belgium to France.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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I remember the first time I went to Alsace post-Schengen. As a child, crossing the border from France into Germany had involved traffic queues, border checks and crossing the dreaded "no man's land"; so I was amazed at being able to drive across the Rhine without even slowing down.
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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In case there's any doubt, do remember that the UK is not part of the Schengen Zone, so you need to produce a passport to enter the UK from the Schengen Zone and anywhere else (except the Republic of Ireland and Gibraltar, IIRC) and enter the Schengen Zone when travelling from the UK.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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Conversely, the Channel Islands are not part of the EU. (I don't know what passport rules are applied there).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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God, some of you people are funny. Referendums undemocratic because there's a winner and loser?

Next you'll be telling me that electing an MP for a constituency is undemocratic because only one of the candidates wins. All of them who get a decent quota should take a turn, or something...

And close sporting fixtures are unfair. They should be rerun until one team manages to give the other a decent thrashing, and THEN we'll call it a win.

I remain fairly neutral on the outcome of the vote. What I'm not neutral on is my growing contempt for the people, mostly leaning on the left side of politics like myself, who have shown themselves to be utterly incapable of losing a vote with good grace.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Conversely, the Channel Islands are not part of the EU.

...Neatly illustrating the whole idiotic farce of the UK position on Europe.


[Edited the quote to clarify that the idiotic part is the official position, not Baptist Trainfan's lack of knowledge about immigration law. [Smile] ]

[ 03. September 2016, 07:44: Message edited by: Imaginary Friend ]

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If any one thing pisses me off it's that there will be no vote in Parliament to invoke Article 50.(see below photo of Boris Johnson) So much for democracy: it took an act of parliament to sign up to the Lisbon Treaty, which took us "in", and now we are coming "out" on the Prime Minister's say so. An unelected Prime Minister to boot.

I'm a civil servant and this is bloody difficult to stomach.

From this I conclude you're a civil servant who has no comprehension of how treaties - ANY treaties - usually work.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
God, some of you people are funny. Referendums undemocratic because there's a winner and loser?

No, the question isn't was there a winner or not. Clearly Brexiters won, they got more votes. The question that was asked is whether that could be called a "clear result". What we have is the equivalent of a football match that has gone through extra time and is settled by a penalty shoot out. If that happens in a major championship the backpages of the newspapers and the fans will spend practically forever discussing every little incident during the game which might have produced a different result, one way or the other. Why should that be allowed for a stupid football match, but not for a major constitutional change?

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Conversely, the Channel Islands are not part of the EU.

...Neatly illustrating the whole idiotic farce of the UK position on Europe.


The Channel Islands are not part of Schengen but are part of the European Economic Area.

They are not part of the UK because they are Crown Dependencies, the practical upshot of which is that they are not governed by the UK Parliament and thus exempt from Acts passed by it.

The inhabitants are British citizens. The Islands enjoy certain benefits of the UK's EU membership via Protocol 3 of the Treaty of Accession of the UK to the EU, so are indirectly affected by Brexit. I think the area in which they are most likely to suffer from Brexit is if the City loses a lot of its financial trade, which I think could have a knock-on effect on their financial services industry.

If not idiotic, a lot of things in the Channel Islands are eccentric, such as whether their respective sports teams should play as part of British leagues or as national sides.

[fact-correcting]

[ 03. September 2016, 08:16: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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The Isle of Man is in a similar position to the Channel Islands. Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory, and hence in another category of "not quite independent of the UK". I'm not sure quite how the decision was made to include Gibraltar in the referendum but not the Channel Islands or Man, or for that matter other British Overseas Territories - Akrotiri and Dhekelia in particular (the others not being geographically close to Europe could probably be excluded on those grounds).

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
God, some of you people are funny. Referendums undemocratic because there's a winner and loser?

The way I feel about it at the moment is something like this.

A referendum is declared about whether we should fly to mars. During the entire debate leading up to it, no-one ever says how it will be achieved, and the question is always waved away - successfully because the option captures the public mood which is looking for an escape, and in any case, for reasons not well understood by most, those campaigning against the proposition spent their entire time pointing out that the atmosphere on Mars is poisonous, rather than pointing out the complete lack of any proposal in the proposition as to how it would be achieved.

The proposition is endorsed by referendum. So naturally, everyone turns to those who made the propostion and asks how it will be achieved. "We don't know - just go and stand in the street and flap. If it doesn't work, that's anti-democratic". Of course it doesn't. They then make a whole series of other ridiculous propositions which completely fail to take into account other objective conditions, such as gravity, but their only response to any challenge is "that's anti-democratic". The entire situation rapidly descends into something poised delicately between tragedy and total farce, and the country in which the referendum was held looks utterly ridiculous, and the rest of the world points and laughs.

That's why I'm not lying down and taking it. I so hope that's OK with you - meanwhile, I will take your antipodean opinion under advisement.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged



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