|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Bloody Brexiteers
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
And is there any evidence whatsoever that Cox's murderer had even heard of this event, let alone attended?
None and I wasn't suggesting that he did necessarily.
However here we have someone who murders someone in broad daylight, who has apparently strong patterns of interaction with Neo-nazis, who apparently shouted "Britain First". And to top it all, it turns out that Britain First clearly think it necessary to carry knives for defensive purposes.
Possibly a total coincidence that this training event happened recently. Maybe it is totally random that Neo-Nazis want Brexit and advocate street violence. Utterly unconnected that Farage claims there will be violence on the streets if the popular vote doesn't go his way. Maybe it has nothing to do with Farage's recent visual rhetoric about migrants.
The attacker may have not recognised her as his MP, he may have been so high on something that he saw her as a slug etc and so on. These things happen.
But it isn't a stretch to say that there are rather a lot of coincidences here and it doesn't take a genius to think that they might be connected.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
I mean, Richard Barth doing the same thing on the internet, dig up this link:
https://twitter.com/Barthsnotes/status/743473590897623041
That's a little different as the suspect himself appears to have implicated himself with that organisation and the organisation has named him.
Well, it would look like the SPLC made their statement on the basis of a receipt with a name and address on it from the organisation concerned listing the items ordered. So I don't see what the difference is - in fact the SPLC actually had more information.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
|
Posted
Barnabas: quote:
I guess the police are looking at the evidence for premeditation, for various reasons associated with the UK criminal law.
IANAL, but I would have thought the fact he was carrying a gun and a knife around with him was clear evidence of premeditation to kill or injure *somebody*.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, he also chose to murder his local MP, a prominant campaigner for human rights and advocate for an open and welcoming multi-ethnic society.
Do we even know if he knew this about Ms Cox, let alone that it influenced his attack?
No, we don't know.
He clearly knew when and where she held here surgeries, which probably puts him in a minority of the population. I assume her maiden Parliamentary speech had been widely reported in the local paper, possibly the local TV and radio. And, that the local papers had reported on her other activities. But, we don't know if he read the local papers recently, although I thought I'd seen something about him reading about the need for volunteers in the local press.
There's certainly no reason why he wouldn't have known the views of Ms Cox. I would suspect that it's likely that even if he didn't know the details that he was aware that she was a left-leaning MP supporting Remain. Whether that influenced his attack? We can't say. But, it's still a lot of coincidences.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
@ Jane R
It points that way, I agree, but neither you nor I know whether this was just something he always did. Nor do we know whether the man in custody had a prior intention to attack Jo Cox, or this was (horrible of phrases) an "opportunist crime". No doubt the police will investigate both any history of violence and any evidence of mental instability.
Meanwhile, I am very much on board with the statement issued by Jo Cox's widowed husband. I've always thought that in highly charged situations, it's best to think and speak carefully, and not add fuel to fires. Hatred is contagious.
[ 17. June 2016, 11:08: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
Alan and mr cheesy: then all you've got is piss-and-wind speculation. Not so very different from the people who cry in other situations, "He was a Muslim so it must have been an Islamist attack!".
For the time being, they're only "suspicious co-incidences" which it "doesn't take a genius" to draw specific conclusions from to those who insist on reading them that way.
We simply don't know enough to make any such judgement at this stage - that's the plain truth of the matter.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
Unless
a) the underlying principles upon which people will vote has been changed in light of yesterday's killing
or
b) the Leave or Remain campaigns are overwhelmingly seen poorly in their reactions to this tragic event
this tragic event will not change people's minds about Remain or Leave.
Somebody will be seen and chastised by the other side, likely today or tomorrow, for "using these events". Whether that is enough to swing votes is another matter.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
Like as with the Arch Duke Ferdinand, one person dies violently and everyone is holding their breath. The same thing with the Kennedy assassination, fortunately that did not trigger an imminent disaster.
Fear and tension is in the air, this bloody referendum. Hands up who'll be glad when it is over.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Alan and mr cheesy: then all you've got is piss-and-wind speculation. Not so very different from the people who cry in other situations, "He was a Muslim so it must have been an Islamist attack!".
For the time being, they're only "suspicious co-incidences" which it "doesn't take a genius" to draw specific conclusions from to those who insist on reading them that way.
We simply don't know enough to make any such judgement at this stage - that's the plain truth of the matter.
Yes, it's speculation. But, there seems to be enough information for some of that to be more than "piss-and-wind". We know he walked into a busy market area with a gun and a knife and shot Ms Cox. There are only two options:
- He was going to kill someone, it didn't matter who, and he didn't know he killed the local MP
- He deliberately targetted Jo Cox
Option A is possible, but ... oh look, there's the porcine aerobatics display team in action.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
You can't make friends with a snake and then act surprised when it bites you. It was only a matter of time considering how this whole referendum has gone. It's become a thoroughly ugly, filthy buisness. Regardless of what happens next week there are a lot of things that won't go back in the box.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Like as with the Arch Duke Ferdinand, one person dies violently and everyone is holding their breath. The same thing with the Kennedy assassination, fortunately that did not trigger an imminent disaster.
Fear and tension is in the air, this bloody referendum. Hands up who'll be glad when it is over.
:Waves hand in the air:
--------------------
http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Alan and mr cheesy: then all you've got is piss-and-wind speculation.
The only piss-and-wind here is you hoping beyond hope that a man with neo-nazi links armed with a gun and a knife who stabbed and shot his internationalist, refugee-welcoming, Remain-supporting MP while shouting 'put Britain first' wasn't influenced by the toxic, deeply racist, mendacious Leave campaign.
Good luck with that.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Alan and mr cheesy: then all you've got is piss-and-wind speculation. Not so very different from the people who cry in other situations, "He was a Muslim so it must have been an Islamist attack!".
Muslims are a much larger and more variable demographic than far-right neo-nazis.
The equivalent speculation would be "It must have been a far-right killing, he was white British."
For the appropriate Islamist parallel try "It must be Islamic terror, he was a member of an extremist Islamic group."
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I think we have to be clear that there is absolutely a difference between a position which describes a lone murderer as "a Muslim" compared to one which describes him as "a fascist".
Fascism in and of itself is a system of rule by the strongest. That's what it is. So violence is ingrained right through it.
Islam is not fundamentally violent.
So if you are describing someone as being a Neo-Nazi who has committed political violence, then that is no way inconsistent with the political view they hold as a Neo-Nazi. Indeed, it would be very difficult to be a fascist who didn't believe that violence was the way to get power.
But someone who self-identifies as Muslim who has committed political violence is different because it is clearly very easy to be a Muslim with a wide range of political views.
So if Trump was to say something about excluding fascists from entering the USA, that might be fair enough. The chances of them being violent are high because that's the bedrock of their political view.
But in saying something about refusing entry to Muslims, he's saying something quite different.
For another thing - even if this guy never intended to attack the MP, it would be hard to say that he wasn't indoctrinated by violence if he was part of a fascist or neo-Nazi group in the past. But even that's a stretch, because there would be no political benefit from taking out a random person in the street if an MP was in the vicinity. Why would you do that?
And ultimately this is why the Leave side is so fundamentally evil. Whilst there are surely some within the group who are just misguided idiots, the way the debate is framed is about foreigners, about immigration, migrants and "British sovereignty". By taking exaggerated positions on these issues you cannot help but be sharing a platform with fascists. When you start talking about the possibility of you losing the democratic vote and that leading to violence by people who don't accept it, then you're at very least giving unintentional backing to the worst aspects of those on your side of the argument.
[ 17. June 2016, 13:24: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Piglet
Islander
# 11803
|
Posted
It seems to me that, unlike with the atrocity in Orlando, at least the perpetrator is still alive, so the police can at least attempt to discover why he did it.
As to whether the tragedy will affect the outcome of the referendum, I'm inclined to think that it might sway some waverers (of whom there appear to be many) towards the Remain camp. If the "Britain First"/neo-Nazi connection is proven to be right, the Leave campaigners will probably be damaged by association (real or imagined).
--------------------
I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, there seems to be enough information for some of that to be more than "piss-and-wind". We know he walked into a busy market area with a gun and a knife and shot Ms Cox. There are only two options:
- He was going to kill someone, it didn't matter who, and he didn't know he killed the local MP
- He deliberately targetted Jo Cox
Option A is possible, but ... oh look, there's the porcine aerobatics display team in action.
You're missing my point. Whether he deliberately targeted Jo Cox or not, there is as yet no evidence that he targeted her (a) precisely because she was a remain supporter - that that was what motivated him - or (b) that it was the nasty leave campaign stuff wot made him do it.
Really, there isn't. It may all be as you say. But would it kill us to suspend judgement until we have a bit more solid stuff to go on rather than scoring angry political points about this tragedy right from the get-go?
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
It seems to me that, unlike with the atrocity in Orlando, at least the perpetrator is still alive, so the police can at least attempt to discover why he did it.
As to whether the tragedy will affect the outcome of the referendum, I'm inclined to think that it might sway some waverers (of whom there appear to be many) towards the Remain camp. If the "Britain First"/neo-Nazi connection is proven to be right, the Leave campaigners will probably be damaged by association (real or imagined).
We won't know what connections and motivations there were until the case comes to trial. By which time the referendum will be done. So any damage to the Leave campaign will be on the basis of supposition and speculation. Of which there is plenty at the moment on every news broadcast, newspaper article and FB share. I can't see how it won't damage the Leave campaign. Which is a pity, I would much rather the weaknesses in the Leave campaign (over their dodgy arithmatic, impossible promises, the suggestion that immigration is a problem etc) were the reason for their failure on Thursday than a lone crazy man gunning down an MP.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, there seems to be enough information for some of that to be more than "piss-and-wind". We know he walked into a busy market area with a gun and a knife and shot Ms Cox. There are only two options:
- He was going to kill someone, it didn't matter who, and he didn't know he killed the local MP
- He deliberately targetted Jo Cox
Option A is possible, but ... oh look, there's the porcine aerobatics display team in action.
You're missing my point. Whether he deliberately targeted Jo Cox or not, there is as yet no evidence that he targeted her (a) precisely because she was a remain supporter - that that was what motivated him - or (b) that it was the nasty leave campaign stuff wot made him do it.
Really, there isn't. It may all be as you say. But would it kill us to suspend judgement until we have a bit more solid stuff to go on rather than scoring angry political points about this tragedy right from the get-go?
Yet even proponents of Brexit have admitted that the nature of the Leave campaign, especially the focus on immigration, made something like the murder of Jo Cox inevitable. Whether or not this particular case was a direct result of that climate, there is no denying that the Leave campaign have generated that climate and it has consequences. Even members of the Leave campaign are admitting that. If we follow the climate analogy, we know that global warming will increase the frequency and severity of storm events, but we can't point a finger to a particular storm and say "that was caused by climate change".
And, FWIW, I think that Trump and Cruz, and other Republicans, appear to be creating a similar climate in the US at the moment. A climate that is creating a fear of immigrants - Mexicans who are "drug-dealing rapists" or Muslims who are "gun wielding terrorists" - of ethnic minorities, of the LGBT community etc. A climate in which atrocities against those minority communities, or against people who oppose that climate, will be inevitable.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
I would suggest that if the murderer had shouted 'Allahu akbar', and had previously subscribed to Dabiq magazine, and some commentator said 'Oh we must not jump to conclusions about motives', then 'political correctness gone mad' is probably the kindest thing that would be said about that commentator.
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I would suggest that if the murderer had shouted 'Allahu akbar', and had previously subscribed to Dabiq magazine, and some commentator said 'Oh we must not jump to conclusions about motives', then 'political correctness gone mad' is probably the kindest thing that would be said about that commentator.
Yes, the tabloids would be screaming about terrorism, probably, whereas this case is a 'crazed loner'. Well, the media are generally on the right, and support Leave, so they are not going to highlight any possible connection with that.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Yet even proponents of Brexit have admitted that the nature of the Leave campaign, especially the focus on immigration, made something like the murder of Jo Cox inevitable.
Inevitable? I don't buy that. And "something like" the murder of Jo Cox is almost offensively general. The murder of Jo Cox was a very specific, highly contingent and deeply personal tragedy.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Whether or not this particular case was a direct result of that climate, there is no denying that the Leave campaign have generated that climate and it has consequences. Even members of the Leave campaign are admitting that.
So far I have only seen Allan Massie "admit" that. And any "climate" that has been created is the product of the interaction between one side and the other - the ramping up of rhetoric and of accusation and counter-accusation. No one "side" can claim that it was blameless. But both "sides" are actually blameless of the actual murder of this one specific individual person.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
It's interesting that they've gone for the crazed loner thing - since he spoke to neighbours, worked on their gardens, got involved with a local conservation project and helped people at the Job Centre with computers, he doesn't seem like a loner to me. Apart from not being married with a family, and living alone. Like me.
[ 17. June 2016, 14:33: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I don't think this murder was inevitable. But I have been worried recently by the racism and xenophobia generated by Leave recently. These are poisonous fumes, which seem much worse, than in the normal political campaigns. As others have said, I can't wait for this referendum to end, and hopefully the fumes will be dispelled to some extent.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
It's interesting that they've gone for the crazed loner thing - since he spoke to neighbours, worked on their gardens, got involved with a local conservation project and helped people at the Job Centre with computers, he doesn't seem like a loner to me. Apart from not being married with a family, and living alone. Like me.
Well, 'crazed loner' tends to depoliticize it, I think, and switches off his links to neo-Nazis. But of course, this can be switched on and off like a tap. One of Lee Rigby's killers had mental health problems, but I don't think that was emphasized by the right-wing media, was it?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I would suggest that if the murderer had shouted 'Allahu akbar', and had previously subscribed to Dabiq magazine, and some commentator said 'Oh we must not jump to conclusions about motives', then 'political correctness gone mad' is probably the kindest thing that would be said about that commentator.
Yes, the tabloids would be screaming about terrorism, probably, whereas this case is a 'crazed loner'. Well, the media are generally on the right, and support Leave, so they are not going to highlight any possible connection with that.
But just as it would be wrong to jump to a conclusion that a murder by a Muslim must be a Islamist attack just because the assailant was a Muslim, it is wrong to jump to the conclusion that not only was Mair motivated by his political opinions (the opinions of an very mentally vulnerable person) to kill Jo Cox specifically because of her political stance on immigration but that it was the Brexit campaign specifically wot did it.
It the italicised bits which I think people are being far too quick to jump to.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I note that it is now reported that Trump has said that "More attacks will follow Orlando" - apparently borrowing rhetoric from Farage.
My goodness, what the fuck is the world coming to?
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Inevitable? I don't buy that. And "something like" the murder of Jo Cox is almost offensively general. The murder of Jo Cox was a very specific, highly contingent and deeply personal tragedy.
Yes, it was a specific event. A tragedy for her friends, family and constituents. And, until the trial we won't know all that can be known about the circumstances. As I said, we can't attribute causes to the murder of Jo Cox at the moment, maybe even after the facts are presented at trial we won't be able to. Which is why I was trying to open things up to the more general.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Whether or not this particular case was a direct result of that climate, there is no denying that the Leave campaign have generated that climate and it has consequences. Even members of the Leave campaign are admitting that.
So far I have only seen Allan Massie "admit" that.
Farage has also been banging on about violence in the streets.
Again, the specific consequences are difficult to predict. But, leading politicians within the government, not just nutters like Farage, keep on pounding out the lies that immigration is bad for the country, that immigrants take "our jobs", that they scrounge off the welfare system, that refugees fleeing Daesh are all potential terrorists etc. Is it not reasonable to expect that such poisonous rhetoric will encourage the Nazi thugs of organisations like Britain First to take to the streets, to organise more marches outside mosques? And, that some members or sympathisers of such organisations will take things further than just marching and chanting obscenities? Maybe some bricks through the windows of the homes of immigrants, maybe petrol bombs? Maybe targetting not just immigrants but those of us who support a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural society as being the best thing for Britain?
And, when the rhetoric of politicians in a referendum campaign creates a climate where the Nazi thugs feel encouraged to increase their vile activities, do those politicians not bear some blame over those actions?
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, 'crazed loner' tends to depoliticize it, I think
That isn't, IMO, a bad thing in the current circumstances. I don't think anyone wants this atrocity to become part of the referendum campaign.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
As I said, we can't attribute causes to the murder of Jo Cox at the moment[.]
Right. My whole point in a nutshell. Which is precisely why I think those seeking to do so by their "it doesn't take a genius to work it out" speculations should knock it off.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
No, that's not true. Jo Cox's husband wants it, for a start.
(in reply to Alan's comment above)
[ 17. June 2016, 14:50: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
Mention has been made of where the killer lived and his relationship with neighbours, also that he'd lived there since he was 12 with parents and then grandmother who died a few years ago. He apparently worked voluntarily in gardens, but I wonder what his source of income is. I shall be interested to read this, but realise that it is not particularly relevant in connection with the murder.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Right. My whole point in a nutshell. Which is precisely why I think those seeking to do so by their "it doesn't take a genius to work it out" speculations should knock it off.
Before you misquote me again, you might try reading what I actually wrote in a post which said all this supposition could be wrong.
quote:
The attacker may have not recognised her as his MP, he may have been so high on something that he saw her as a slug etc and so on. These things happen.
But it isn't a stretch to say that there are rather a lot of coincidences here and it doesn't take a genius to think that they might be connected.
That's right, I acknowledged that the general view could be wrong and that there may turn out to be some other cause of the attack.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, 'crazed loner' tends to depoliticize it, I think
That isn't, IMO, a bad thing in the current circumstances. I don't think anyone wants this atrocity to become part of the referendum campaign.
Well, thanks for cutting off the rest of my post, which pointed out that it's the right-wing media which want to depoliticize this killer, as they don't want any connection with Leave.
I agree that it should not form a part of the referendum campaign now, but the behaviour of the right-wing media is certainly worth noting, as they are playing a part in generating large amounts of racism and xenophobia, and of course, support Leave.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
No, that's not true. Jo Cox's husband wants it, for a start.
(in reply to Alan's comment above)
Well, he certainly wants her good work to be remembered, and for others to carry it forward. He also doesn't want people to respond towards those who hold similar political views as her murderer with hate.
Has he said anything specifically about the referendum? If so, I missed it. I would be surprised if he would want pictures of his wife circulated with a "Remember her sacrifice, vote Remain" or "Don't let her killer get what he wants, vote Remain" type message. But, perhaps if she was particularly passionate about the referendum that would be a fitting response. Though I think the Remain campaign would be crucified if they tried it.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, 'crazed loner' tends to depoliticize it, I think
That isn't, IMO, a bad thing in the current circumstances. I don't think anyone wants this atrocity to become part of the referendum campaign.
Well, thanks for cutting off the rest of my post, which pointed out that it's the right-wing media which want to depoliticize this killer, as they don't want any connection with Leave.
I agree that it should not form a part of the referendum campaign now, but the behaviour of the right-wing media is certainly worth noting, as they are playing a part in generating large amounts of racism and xenophobia, and of course, support Leave.
I didn't quite the rest of your post because there was nothing in there for me to disagree with, nor anything that I thought I could say better. I just picked the small point I wanted to expand on.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
No problem, Alan.
I suppose there is a parallel with Orlando, which the right-wing seemed to 'degay', by saying that it was an attack on all Americans, or all people, or even young people (!). Anything but a bigoted anti-gay attack. I suppose Trump made it all about himself as usual.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
Got that in one. Didn't know even have to check the news, did you? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Interesing how racists are tediously alike the world over. Must be a lizard brain devolutionary thing.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
....
As to whether the tragedy will affect the outcome of the referendum, I'm inclined to think that it might sway some waverers (of whom there appear to be many) towards the Remain camp. If the "Britain First"/neo-Nazi connection is proven to be right, the Leave campaigners will probably be damaged by association (real or imagined).
Its pretty easy to disavow a lunatic and distance your campaign from the extreme and refocus on a particular message based on "the issue", however that is defined.
What you need to do that is the right spokesperson to get that across - there's the real question Leave is probably asking itself.
Who do they put in front of the camera's to soothe the fears when their campaign has largely been based on fear?
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Right. My whole point in a nutshell. Which is precisely why I think those seeking to do so by their "it doesn't take a genius to work it out" speculations should knock it off.
Before you misquote me again, you might try reading what I actually wrote in a post which said all this supposition could be wrong.
quote:
The attacker may have not recognised her as his MP, he may have been so high on something that he saw her as a slug etc and so on. These things happen.
But it isn't a stretch to say that there are rather a lot of coincidences here and it doesn't take a genius to think that they might be connected.
That's right, I acknowledged that the general view could be wrong and that there may turn out to be some other cause of the attack.
Come off it. Given the deeply ironic tone of you whole post I'm pretty sure you meant that it was fairly safe to speculate that Jo Cox's death was indeed deeply influenced by the Brexit "climate". Are you really telling us now that you meant no such thing and that you meant to imply no such thing?
Let others read that post and decide for themselves.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Has he said anything specifically about the referendum?
quote:
unite to fight against the hatred that killed her
I think you'd have to have a particularly tin ear not to interpret that as an explicit call.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I've not seen anything to suggest that there was an altercation which the MP tried to intervene to stop.
This is just one example of posts over the last day, but I find it genuinely odd that people didn't spot that I specifically noted the initial reports I read included statements that Jo Cox intervened in an altercation.
Now I'm not saying that it's true, because there are plenty of other statements of witnesses to the media that frame it squarely as an attack on Jo Cox. But I raise this because it's a vivid example of just how damn unreliable our media is, and how much of it is no more than a repetition of what other people said with no investigative element to it at all.
Straight from the get-go, there have been conflicting accounts of what happened on this rather crucial point. Was this an attack on Jo Cox, or was this a fight/attack that Jo Cox was caught up in?
Shouting something out doesn't necessarily resolve it, because Jo Cox is not the only person in the whole of the UK you might want to shout something at.
In this particular case the police have a decent chance at getting to the bottom of things. The perpetrator is alive, as is the injured man who was directly involved. There also appear to be a considerable number of witnesses.
One of the worst things about our current age of short term reporting and social media, though, is that we're simply not prepared to wait for the police to tell us what they've uncovered.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
I've seen the same phenomenon with Orlando, of course. People declaring there was something fishy about there being no security at the club simply because they haven't read the news reports that say there WAS security at the club. People saying "why didn't people escape out the back" when a whole lot of people did escape out the back.
All the news reports about the gunman claiming allegiance to ISIS that don't mention he also claimed allegiance to ISIS' Muslim enemies and showed a complete lack of knowledge of the politics of the Arab world.
We all seem to think that one day's news reports is enough to tell us everything there is to know about an event, and time and again I think that it's utter bullshit.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
We all seem to think that one day's news reports is enough to tell us everything there is to know about an event, and time and again I think that it's utter bullshit.
Preach it, brother.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
I learn far more about news events by scrolling the Ship than I ever do by listening to radio news every day of every working week.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
They have just had some Brexit spokesperson from a political consultancy on France Info. Repeatedly challenged on the violence of the Leave campaign in particular, he kept repeating "no no, there hasn't been any physical violence" and all the time sneaking in campaign-oriented comments ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Whatever the murderer's motivations and state of mind, it seems indubitably clear to me that his actions were fuelled by the environment both campaigns have sought to create and feed on.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Whatever the murderer's motivations and state of mind, it seems indubitably clear to me that his actions were fuelled by the environment both campaigns have sought to create and feed on.
So you don't accept even the possibility that he was a man involved in, say, an ongoing dispute with a neighbour or the local council or was upset at his local MP because of something else?
Why are we reducing Jo Cox to a meme? Seriously. It's become "Jo Cox was known to be strongly in favour of the Remain campaign, therefore this is the only thing that Jo Cox has ever done and the only possible reason for her death".
Don't get me wrong, I agree it's a likely reason for her death. But blanket 'indubitable' statements that simply don't allow for any other possible reason make me tilt my head quizzically.
People do kill people over the most personal, local things, and there's no law of physics that prevents them from doing so at the same time as some Big Thing is going on. Day-to-day life in the UK hasn't miraculously stopped.
And Lord knows there are a thousand crime show scripts based on the idea that the first motive people leap to is not the correct one, either because the real killer is terribly cunning or because of sheer coincidence. And while real life is not the same thing as a crime show script, and sometimes things really are quite straightforward, we wouldn't buy into those crime show scripts if we didn't recognise that what they presented was at least possible.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
And really, the reason this is bothering me so much is because after days of challenging the immediate "Islamic terrorist" meme for Orlando, and seeing the gay community on social media arguing for a gay hate crime focus, I'm not that comfortable with leaping onto the "Violent supporter of Leave campaign" meme so darn readily.
Yes, there are many things that point that way, I agree. But there are a few things that don't, and I'd be much less disturbed if people didn't treat it like an open and shut case.
I struggle to find much difference in tone between "You see? Proof the Leave campaign is nasty" and "You see? Proof we have to take action against Muslims". They're both variations of "I told you so" that lack nuance.
Now if you'll excuse me I desperately need to go sleep.
[ 17. June 2016, 16:28: Message edited by: orfeo ]
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
FWIW it is being reported that police have found Neo-Nazi materials at the suspecrs' address.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Whatever the murderer's motivations and state of mind, it seems indubitably clear to me that his actions were fuelled by the environment both campaigns have sought to create and feed on.
So you don't accept even the possibility that he was a man involved in, say, an ongoing dispute with a neighbour or the local council or was upset at his local MP because of something else?
Of course I do. But it seems well-attested that he shouted "Britain first".
I never said Brexit was the primary or the unique cause of the murder, and very likely there was some pre-existing grudge (as it seems there may well have been for the murderer of the two police officers here in France recently).
But the climate fuels and legitimises hatred, and increases the likelihood of unstable individuals going beyond words and acting out.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
