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Source: (consider it) Thread: Bloody Brexiteers
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Was Tommy Mair a member of "Britain First"?

There's a picture doing the rounds on twitter, of him standing in the centre of 5 BF activists, in front of a mosque.

So, yes, as much as there are records of membership.

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Forward the New Republic

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Barnabas62
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Did you see this?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
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Posted by Mr Cheesy:
quote:

Yes I am. I'm a child who believes fascists are actually comedy characters who given a chance will just prove how idiotic they are without any assistance from anyone else.

Yes, that concept has worked out really well for the fascists in Europe in the past. [Roll Eyes]

I'll grant you, they were certainly idiotic, I just didn't see anyone laughing.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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Yes, but there are many, many pictures of BF people (usually in their twos and threes) standing behind a BF banner in all manner of locations. Often the same people, for that matter. It's what they do: turn up, unfurl the banner, tweet the picture, get jeered off the street by the locals (though they're less likely to tweet that...).

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Forward the New Republic

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Also, the link I saw first was on a wayback machine thread, started in 2012 or so. If that's Mair deliberately photoshopped in, then someone has a time machine, and a better use to put it to than photoshopping.

I grant you this is the internet, and things can be fixed.

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Forward the New Republic

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Eutychus
From the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
I was also attempting in a rather flippant way to balance out my previous post which has been completely overtaken by events.

Wishing gang rape on somebody in prison is an odd way of being flippant.
quote:
Let him suffer a bit (a lot?), perhaps then he might come to some appreciation of the enormity of what he's done.
If you're championing the idea that physical suffering is an appropriate and constructive response to wrongdoing, forget Brexit, you might as well tear up the European Convention on Human Rights while you're at it (much as many Brexiters would, apparently, be keen to).

I'll say it before and I'll say it again, however much of a monster anyone may be, the day we think they deserve to stop being treated as a human being, we have forgotten our own humanity.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Yes, that concept has worked out really well for the fascists in Europe in the past. [Roll Eyes]

I'll grant you, they were certainly idiotic, I just didn't see anyone laughing.

I think a large number of people who saw Chaplin's Great Dictator thought it was funny in 1940.

And that was by no means the only comedy about fascists. The defeat of Mosley and the British Union of Fascists was in no small part from people laughing him off the stage.

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arse

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Penny S
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I find all these references to prison rape as a justifiable part of punishment deeply disturbing. The perpetrators of those crimes should be tried for them and imprisoned in solitary confinement, possibly in Broadmoor, or somewhere where they can be treated. They should see their release vanish into the distance, because they are not fit to be outside.
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Penny S
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# 14768

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Fascist comedy included the goosestepping 'Lambeth Walk', didn't it?

If you don't want to look a fool, don't develop a foolish marching style

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Also, the link I saw first was on a wayback machine thread, started in 2012 or so. If that's Mair deliberately photoshopped in, then someone has a time machine, and a better use to put it to than photoshopping.

I grant you this is the internet, and things can be fixed.

Thanks Doc. To my untutored eye, the photos looked genuine and they contain someone who looks like Tommy Mair.

Boldly going where I have never gone before, I found (link to Britain First website) this denial. The photos, if genuine, may have some legal significance. So I guess they will be looked at forensically. In the present age, seeing is not necessarily believing.

[ 18. June 2016, 14:40: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
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Could we label that last link nsfw - really didn't want the Britain First site on my browsing history.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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Good point, well made.

DT
HH


(God forbid my computers ever get forensically examined. [Ultra confused] )

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Forward the New Republic

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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Posted by Cheesy:
quote:

I think a large number of people who saw Chaplin's Great Dictator thought it was funny in 1940.

Weel, I really hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but you aint no Chaplin.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Weel, I really hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but you aint no Chaplin.

I never said I was. I was responding to your facetious argument that comedy had never had an effect on fascism - in fact it has.

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arse

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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
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Two instances from 70+ years ago where comedy has had an affect on public opinion do not compare to the amount of people killed by facism, even in the last 10 years in places like Hungary.

I get that comedy is a decent weapon but many of our governments have been complicit in allowing facism to grow in other countries for the sake of things like trade or, in the case of the recently departed Conservative government of Canada, raking in money from supporters when being seen to be tough and keeping out the "other".

Outrage and nasty pointed "WTF" discussions with God are probably better ways of going about things.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Two instances from 70+ years ago where comedy has had an affect on public opinion do not compare to the amount of people killed by facism, even in the last 10 years in places like Hungary.

I'm confused why you are making that comparison. All I'm saying is that fascists don't like being made fun of, and that in the past this has had an impact so in the same vein we should point and laugh at this current idiot.

quote:
I get that comedy is a decent weapon but many of our governments have been complicit in allowing facism to grow in other countries for the sake of things like trade or, in the case of the recently departed Conservative government of Canada, raking in money from supporters when being seen to be tough and keeping out the "other".
Who is disagreeing with that?

It is all very well for Cameron to praise Jo Cox's stand on refugees when it is his government which is refusing to do anything meaningful about it.

In the same way it is the height of hypocrisy for the French government to praise her whilst today they've blocked an aid convoy from bringing relief to those unfortunates in Calais.

quote:
Outrage and nasty pointed "WTF" discussions with God are probably better ways of going about things.
That's fine, I respect your view and your inclination. I still maintain that a better way is to point and laugh.

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arse

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Penny S
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# 14768

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While watching various versions of the 'Lambeth Walk', I read the comments underneath, and, apparently, the film was much enjoyed by Danish resistance, so much so, that they would hold showings of it. Also apparently, I haven't been able to check, some of these showings were to German soldiers, and some of the soldiers were members of an internal not-exactly-enamoured-of-der-fuhrer group, and some of the soldiers' weapons ended up with the resistance.

I assume this was towards the end.

I want to check - and also how the film got there. Physical copies must have been smuggled in.

If true, humour against fascists was useful.

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Penny S
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Page 149 - cinema in Denmark, No Germans.
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Rocinante
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I accept that my previous comments were inappropriate, even for Hell, and I apologise for any offence caused. I can't remember the last time I was so angry about something, and I hate that feeling.

I have decided to stay away from the internet and avoid news coverage until this fucked-up abomination of a referendum is over. I won't vote and I no longer care about the outcome. It doesn't seem important any more.

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Eutychus
From the edge
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And now for a touch of light humour: Brexit would make Britain like Guernsey, says French minister [Killing me] I'm not sure how the government of Guernsey (several members of which I know) will take that...

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Is that the same or different from Jersey - cos my immediate thought was of detective Bergerac.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
I won't vote and I no longer care about the outcome.

One more victory for the enemies of democracy.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
And now for a touch of light humour: Brexit would make Britain like Guernsey, says French minister [Killing me]

Warmer weather and lower taxes? I think quite a lot of Britons would sign up to that...
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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Good point, well made.

DT
HH


(God forbid my computers ever get forensically examined. [Ultra confused] )

Sorry, Hosts and Shipmates. A retired person's blindspot.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Eutychus
From the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Is that the same or different from Jersey - cos my immediate thought was of detective Bergerac.

Now you have insulted both Jersey AND Guernsey. That's like confusing Australians and New Zealanders.

One senior official in Jersey delights in telling visitors that the States of Jersey has a mace given to them by Charles II, and showing them, and invites them to ask the States of Guernsey where their mace is.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
And now for a touch of light humour: Brexit would make Britain like Guernsey, says French minister [Killing me]

Warmer weather and lower taxes? I think quite a lot of Britons would sign up to that...
Primary healthcare is not free at the point of use, over 20% of the population are on £20,000 a year or less, with a state average income of £60,000 a year, this tells you there is a significant income gap. I'll pass thanks.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Is that the same or different from Jersey - cos my immediate thought was of detective Bergerac.

Now you have insulted both Jersey AND Guernsey. That's like confusing Australians and New Zealanders.

One senior official in Jersey delights in telling visitors that the States of Jersey has a mace given to them by Charles II, and showing them, and invites them to ask the States of Guernsey where their mace is.

Both places have also been very late to the table on civil rights.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
I won't vote and I no longer care about the outcome.

One more victory for the enemies of democracy.
you will care about the income if it means that if we leave the EU the economy tanks so much that teh UK no longer has the money to do things you think are valuable like a free NHS.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I find all these references to prison rape as a justifiable part of punishment deeply disturbing. The perpetrators of those crimes should be tried for them and imprisoned in solitary confinement, possibly in Broadmoor, or somewhere where they can be treated. They should see their release vanish into the distance, because they are not fit to be outside.

Given the known, brutal, psychological effects of solitary confinement, I'm not sure advocating that is a significant improvement on advocating rape.
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Penny S
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Except that it removes the rapists from the opportunity to abuse other prisoners. So their well-being trumps others?

They can have activities to fill their time. They can have TV and edited internet. They can have visits from therapists and so on, under guard.

But not the opportunity to destroy others.

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Arethosemyfeet
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I think it's possible to restrict opportunities to assault other prisoners without going all the way to solitary confinement.
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Doublethink.
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In a properly run and staffed prison, no one should be having the opportunity to rape anybody.

This does not require solitary confinement.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Penny S
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Quite. So why do people keep gloating about it going to happen to people they don't like? It's obscene.
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Eutychus
From the edge
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Any prison in which there is zero risk of sexual assault cannot be considered to be well-run, because it would be inhumane for all sorts of other reasons.

Solitary confinement is psychologically deleterious (I know someone in for 20 days right now). The European Prison Rules (p79) state that solitary confinement
quote:
should not be considered an appropriate punishment other than in the most exceptional circumstances
Rule 60.5 says
quote:
Solitary confinement shall be imposed as a punishment only in exceptional cases and for a specified period of time, which shall be as short as possible.
In other words, if it were to be applied to someone like Thomas Mair indefinitely, it would be considered inhumane and justifiably so.

Wishing someone like him could be locked up in solitary for ever is not just inhumane, it flies in the face of the rights that signatories to the European Charter of Human Rights are supposed to stand up for. It is typical of the muddled, pitchfork-wielding mob thinking that typefies this debate.

All that said, solitary confinement is not comparable to violent sexual assault.

My qualifications for pontificating? I have been locked in solitary with a violent inmate and been forgotten about for well over an hour (they only remembered where I was when they started wondering where the chaplain had got to). I have also known prison rape victims placed in solitary after the fact for their own protection.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Penny S
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# 14768

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So punishing the victim for being a victim.
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Eutychus
From the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
So punishing the victim for being a victim.

Your ignorance of how prison actually works in practice is becoming more apparent with every post.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
And now for a touch of light humour: Brexit would make Britain like Guernsey, says French minister [Killing me] I'm not sure how the government of Guernsey (several members of which I know) will take that...

I see their former chief minister has responded in kind...

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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This week's More or Less on Radio 4 looked at the numbers being bandied about in the EU Referendum. One of the biggest possible savings comes from the UK opting out from the ECHR and some of the environmental standards. Which will stuff us asthmatics, for starters.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Perhaps it's time somebody told them that the ECHR has nothing to do with the European Union.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Curiosity killed ...

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I had a horrible feeling I should have double checked that one before posting, rather than trying posting from a bus just before disappearing into the Blackwall Tunnel. I'll have to check it when I'm home.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I think you might mean the European Health Insurance Card (EHIC).

According to the BBC the EHIC exists not just within the EU but within the European Economic Area, another thing a lot of people don't seem to know about (the now notorious Guernsey and Jersey are, for instance, part of the EEA and not the EU. Have you ever tried importing a car from there? I have. Ever tried shipping translation equipment there for a short job? I've been dissuaded by the customs hassle).

Whether EHIC survives a possible Brexit depends, I think, on whether whoever's left in charge decides to leave the EEA as well. But I'm sure they'll cross that bridge when they come to it and suddenly reach unanimity on this divisive issue. Unless, just possibly, they haven't thought their plan all the way through.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Helpful diagram

Whoever thought a yes/no question would be the most sensible way to address the complex world we live in?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Whoever thought a yes/no question would be the most sensible way to address the complex world we live in?

An idiot.

It makes one wonder about the value of a "good education" when Eton and Oxford can produce someone with the total lack of common sense of Cameron.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

It makes one wonder about the value of a "good education"

Endows one with a lack of self-doubt and boundless confidence in your abilities, Dunning-Kruger is a thing because it is rewarded at many levels.
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Penny S
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# 14768

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That More or Less programme spoke about savings dependent on the removal of employee/employer regulations, among others, as though discussing them were either neutral, or the employers of the likes of Ashley and Green were reasonable in expecting them. In the interests of balance, I suppose.

Peonage and serfdom await.

And the only place to expect Health and Safety would be from the elves.

[ 18. June 2016, 22:01: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

It makes one wonder about the value of a "good education"

Endows one with a lack of self-doubt and boundless confidence in your abilities, Dunning-Kruger is a thing because it is rewarded at many levels.
The sense of entitlement is not to be underestimated either.
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Helpful diagram

Whoever thought a yes/no question would be the most sensible way to address the complex world we live in?

I find that sometimes direct yes/no questions are about the only way to get a meaningful answer out of a client. The problem is that I often have a chain of several yes/no questions, depending on what the answer to the 1st one was.

It's not having a yes/no question that's the problem, it's having a single one that's the problem. Certainly, if the Leave vote wins, there are going to be a myriad of further questions to sort out. Possibly some even if the Remain vote wins.

PS That diagram is unnecessarily complicated. Some of the categories it uses are fairly trivial ones, groups of countries that agree to talk to each other without much that is binding.

[ 19. June 2016, 03:38: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Helpful diagram

Whoever thought a yes/no question would be the most sensible way to address the complex world we live in?

I find that sometimes direct yes/no questions are about the only way to get a meaningful answer out of a client. The problem is that I often have a chain of several yes/no questions, depending on what the answer to the 1st one was.

It's not having a yes/no question that's the problem, it's having a single one that's the problem. Certainly, if the Leave vote wins, there are going to be a myriad of further questions to sort out. Possibly some even if the Remain vote wins.

PS That diagram is unnecessarily complicated. Some of the categories it uses are fairly trivial ones, groups of countries that agree to talk to each other without much that is binding.

True. But what is really driving me mad is how the Leave campaign are able to promise all sorts of different things to different people despite them being mutually exclusive.

The most likely scenario of a post-Brexit Britain is to be in the EEA without being in the EU. Hence still paying a big contribution and still accepting freedom of movement.

Hence the two biggest promises of the Leave campaign are a lie.

AFZ

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
The most likely scenario of a post-Brexit Britain is to be in the EEA without being in the EU.

As I understand it, that's provided only that the other 27 agree to those terms. Which is not a given, seeing as how the 27 don't exactly want a relatively painless Brexit giving ideas to other members.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
The most likely scenario of a post-Brexit Britain is to be in the EEA without being in the EU.

As I understand it, that's provided only that the other 27 agree to those terms. Which is not a given, seeing as how the 27 don't exactly want a relatively painless Brexit giving ideas to other members.
On the other hand, if there are countries thinking of quitting the EU over immigration and/or the cost of supporting the EU (which seem to be the main arguments for Brexit) then the precedent of the only country leaving being in a situation where it's still open for all EU nationals to live and work there, and they still pay the same amount to the EU - but, get less back from the EU and no longer have MEPs, a seat on the Council and the chance to appoint members of the Commission ....

I can see why that would deter others from leaving the EU. It should deter the UK from leaving.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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