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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fuck the Amerixan injustice system
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Wow. That was.. something else.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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I just read the transcript of her speech. How the judge--however much of a nostalgic, over-aged, Stanford frat boy he is--how the judge could've issued that sentence after listening to her speech is unfathomable to me. The movement to recall him is absolutely right.

And if he's that attached to Stanford, maybe he should've recused himself from the case, altogether.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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The pastor who wrote a letter to Brock Turner's dad, father to father, has followed it up with the blog post "Rape Should Never Be Viral (Fighting Sexual Assault Beyond What's Trending".

It's a really good piece about the priorities of the media, and how people can stay aware and helpful after the media loses interest. And there are resource links.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
What I objected to was your after-the-fact blaming of the victim's parents-- just a step removed from victim-bashing.
I did not blame her parents or her in any way. In the context of my post I was relating what happened to the poem I had quoted which said we clothe them but don't fear for them and yes, I said they failed to keep her safe. As in we all failed to keep her safe as in young women are being raped at these parties and we and you in particular don't seem to care. All you care about is ranting against the perpetrator for a few more pages.

In your frenzy of hatred toward the perpetrator any attempt I've made to turn the conversation toward preventing this from happening in the future is called victim blaming and stifled.

Nothing I've said about girls getting drunk at parties lessens the guilt of the rapist in any way. You are the ones who make that false connection and I wonder why?

If the thread was about a terrible home invasion and I suggested a really good alarm system would you accuse me of making excuses for the thief?


Keep on whining: "Young people always make mistakes, who will chaperone the chaperones, there have always been rapes, we can tell them but they don't listen." That absolves you from any attempt to protect them and as the rape cases keep rising you can keep on throwing up your hands and shushing anyone with suggestions that might help.

This reminds me of all the young women who get pregnant every year because they thought the man should be in charge of birth control. She's the one whose life will be changed but I guess it's more important to stamp her little foot and make sure he does his share than to plan her children.

Now it's more important that every word of the discussion is aimed at the rapist's and his crime than to talk about lessening the chance of this in the future.

It's time we taught women to take charge of their own bodies. No young single woman should trust anyone but herself when it comes to birth control. No woman should get so drunk in public she can't protect herself. That sentence has nothing to do with how guilty the rapist is, and if you think it does you've made a big leap in false logic. It doesn't lessen his crime and it's not intended to blame the victim for what already happened, it's intended to help keep women from getting raped.

Sorry I don't have a cute cartoon about that.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Would you extend that to "no men should get drunk in public"?

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mr cheesy
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I was quite angered by Turner's statement to the court - and it did make me think that one's view of this event would be influenced by which of these two statements (Turners and the victim's) one read first, because they are quite different.

According to Turner, the victim met him at a party, left with him to return to his flat and in their inebriation decided that it was appropriate to have sex outside. The victim consented on many occasions, he got up because he wanted to puke and met a couple of Swedes, who proceeded to attack him and then was confusingly arrested by the police.

According to the victim, she was at a party, had too much to drink and woke up in hospital with signs of sexual assault.

If one takes the Turner account at face value, this was a couple of people who unwisely had too much to drink and, unwisely, had some form of consensual sexual relations in public, which unfortunately led to a police investigation because unfortunately the woman had some physical evidence which was not easy to explain and uncomfortably the story got into the media and this chain of events has led to a gifted athlete being kicked out of university and his whole life irreversibly changed. All for the sake of 20 minutes of unwise choices after an evening of drinking.

If one then takes looks at the victim, she's got no idea what happened because she has no memory of it. All of her complaint comes down to physical evidence, witness evidence and, to not put too fine a point on it, over emotional rhetoric. She, the victim, was part of this whole set of events - yes, it is unfortunate that it ended up that Turner was still touching her when those Swedes turned up, but they shouldn't have assaulted him and this certainly should not have gone as far as the police and this court.

And it is like the judge has listened to a probation report - which says that Turner hasn't offended before, that the victim isn't looking for "hard time" (she didn't quite say that, she said that Turner's self understanding was more important than the length of sentence) and the letters of support from high-status friends of the family - and has shrugged his shoulders, said to himself "she was pissed and passed out, he was pissed, she doesn't know what happened so can't contradict his account, they were on the way to his flat... and I'm going to get in a whole lot of hot water from my peers if I give anything other than the "white rich boy" pass to this kid."

[Mad]

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Although it's not "he says, she says". There were two Swedes who were witnesses to the end of the evening, who both were clear that the woman was not responding to being touched and was clearly unconscious. One of them even considered it necessary to determine whether she was even alive. Which rather destroys any claim of consent given after they tumbled down the hill - assuming the rest of the story is true.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Although it's not "he says, she says". There were two Swedes who were witnesses to the end of the evening, who both were clear that the woman was not responding to being touched and was clearly unconscious. One of them even considered it necessary to determine whether she was even alive. Which rather destroys any claim of consent given after they tumbled down the hill - assuming the rest of the story is true.

Right. And there was some pretty unpleasant physical evidence.

It seems that this was enough for the jury to convict, but not enough for the judge to take into account when setting the prison time.

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Liopleurodon

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# 4836

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According to her statement, she didn't much feel like going out that night, but her younger sister wanted the company and talked her into it. Her sister is the student - Doe herself is older and graduated a few years ago. She doesn't drink very much these days and misjudged her alcohol intake. It's honestly the kind of mistake anyone could make. Many of us have been there - we didn't eat dinner, or it was hot and we were dehydrated, or that mixed drink had more vodka in it than we realised - and suddenly we're much, much more drunk than we expected to be. In Doe's case, she used to go to parties and drink as a student but hadn't done so since graduation and had completely lost her alcohol tolerance.

Most of us emerge from that experience unscathed except for the hangover. Sometimes a criminal scumbag is around to make a bad night much worse. If your answer to this problem is "become someone who never makes human mistakes" it isn't going to work.

ETA: this is a response to Twilight, but for some reason I failed to quote her. Need moar coffee.

[ 10. June 2016, 12:03: Message edited by: Liopleurodon ]

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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I love how dishonest people put things in quotes that I neither said nor implied. Of course we all make mistakes and this young woman is not at fault for any mistake in judgement she made just as no young woman is "at fault," for getting drunk. I'm saying that it might help prevent future rapes if we reminded other so far unraped women to be careful how much they drink when they are among drunken strangers.
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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Would you also remind men to be careful of how much they drink?

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
What I objected to was your after-the-fact blaming of the victim's parents-- just a step removed from victim-bashing.
I did not blame her parents or her in any way. .
Here is what you said:

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The girls parents no doubt provided her with all the pretty clothes that money could buy, but failed to keep her safe...

I can't conceive of any other way to read that then as blaming the parents for not "keeping her safe".

You went on to talk in more general terms about the responsibility of society in general-- something I explicitly agreed with and others have as well. But what I objected to was your blaming the parents-- something you very clearly did.

It might be helpful if you would specify what sort of "prevention" would be effective. So far you've focused on "not getting drunk at frat parties", which is fine, although not all rapes involve frat parties or alcohol. But how exactly could the parents have prevented this? Again, I'm pretty sure the majority of parents of college-age students have warned them about the dangers of excessive drinking. Working for a university, I know for a fact that pretty much every American college has a number of mandatory orientation or other sessions devoted to the topic, as well as the topic of date rape. And yet, they have been ineffective in stopping young adults from drinking (and were ineffective "a thousand years ago" when you and I were in college).

Your assumption seems to be that "feminism" has prevented parents/colleges/societies from doing enough re prevention, yet again, every college has seminars re date rape, drinking etc. So, what is it you think these particular parents failed to do?

[ 10. June 2016, 12:48: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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These arguments make me uneasy, because we seem to be quite close to telling girls not to wear short skirts, show cleavage, and so on, as men are dirty brutes. I thought we were moving away from this focus on the victim's responsibilities? This characterizes patriarchal attitudes, doesn't it? Women should wear modest clothes, should not drink, and really, should go out accompanied by a chaperone. Hello, Saudi Arabia.

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no path

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Would you extend that to "no men should get drunk in public"?

See this is the sort of flippant, high-five, each other, thing I'm objecting to. I frankly don't care whether the frat boys go to parties and get drunk because the likelihood that they are going to be overpowered and raped is negligible.

Am I the only person who cares about the steep increase in rape incidents on college campuses? Or does all anyone care about clever slogans and "not blaming the victim," and increasing the punishment for the rapist -- which most studies show has very little effect on crime. The average criminal has a low IQ and very high-self-esteem. He doesn't care what the penalty is because he doesn't think he will get caught. As far as I'm concerned repeat offender rapists should be locked up for life, but if you're one of his victims that probably wont make you feel much better. What would make the biggest difference would be not getting raped in the first place.

Go ahead Mousethief, encourage your daughter to go to frat parties, drink as many shots as the boys, get on the table and do a strip tease. Then after she's been raped you can shout to the skies about how none of that meant permission to rape her and the rapist should do twenty five years, etc. It will all be true, but she will still have been raped and that's a whole lot worse than the unfairness of her not being able to (safely) get as shit faced as the boys.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Would you extend that to "no men should get drunk in public"?

See this is the sort of flippant, high-five, each other, thing I'm objecting to. I frankly don't care whether the frat boys go to parties and get drunk because the likelihood that they are going to be overpowered and raped is negligible.
So, you are willing to let young men have the (dubious) fun of getting drunk*, but you don't want young women to have the opportunity to do the same?

I don't see anything flippant in my question, and I've no idea where any high-fiving comes in.

You're basically expressing a variation on "don't wear short skirts, off the shoulder dresses, tops revealing a little cleavage". You are wanting women to avoid doing something that they want to do, but not putting any corresponding responsibility on men. Which is a small step from Saudi Arabia, or a small step in a different direction to blaming the victim because her choice of clothing was interpreted as "asking for it". Which has me confused, because I'm pretty certain you don't want either of those.

 

*dubious because, although I've occasionally had too much to drink, never to the passing out in public stage, I've never actually enjoyed being in that out-of-control state and don't understand why some people seem to like it.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
See this is the sort of flippant, high-five, each other, thing I'm objecting to. I frankly don't care whether the frat boys go to parties and get drunk because the likelihood that they are going to be overpowered and raped is negligible.

It isn't altogether flippant because male rape does happen. But even if it didn't, surely there is a higher risk of someone being robbed, mugged, attacked etc whilst very drunk?

quote:
Am I the only person who cares about the steep increase in rape incidents on college campuses?
Err. No.

quote:
Or does all anyone care about clever slogans and "not blaming the victim," and increasing the punishment for the rapist -- which most studies show has very little effect on crime. The average criminal has a low IQ and very high-self-esteem. He doesn't care what the penalty is because he doesn't think he will get caught.
It seems unlikely the IQ aspect is going to be relevant to a young person at university raping another young person. And the "not caring" in this case is due to white privilege.

quote:
As far as I'm concerned repeat offender rapists should be locked up for life, but if you're one of his victims that probably wont make you feel much better. What would make the biggest difference would be not getting raped in the first place.
I'm not sure anyone is disagreeing with you. I'm not sure anyone is even disagreeing with you about the student alcohol issue.

But it still seems undeniable that the main problem here is the attitude of these young men to women.

Would this young man have attacked the woman if she'd been lying in the street unconscious after a road traffic accident? We can't tell, can we. All we know is that this woman is in an existing relationship, shows signs of internal bodily damage, that there were witnesses who had to physically remove him from the prone woman's body (and, apparently, were so upset at what they'd seen that they couldn't speak to police about it at first) and that the man had absolutely no reason whatsoever for his action. None at all.

If he was planning to shag her in his flat as he claimed, why is he doing anything to her behind a dumpster - even if she wasn't out for the count?

The story just doesn't add up.

A more frightening story which fits all the facts is that there is a disgusting misogynist tendency within university frat groups which uses and abuses women and thinks that they're totally immune to the consequences.

It doesn't even bear thinking about what might have happened if these Swedes had not been there.

Yes, serious questions need to be asked about people - all people - who drink themselves to oblivion at these frat parties. But a deeper, more disgusting question is why these rich-boy frat groups think that this is acceptable behaviour.

Both/and not either/or.

quote:
Go ahead Mousethief, encourage your daughter to go to frat parties, drink as many shots as the boys, get on the table and do a strip tease. Then after she's been raped you can shout to the skies about how none of that meant permission to rape her and the rapist should do twenty five years, etc.
You need to calm the hell down and step away from the computer. Nobody here should be talking as if anyone else deliberately puts their daughters in a position where they're likely to be raped.

Get a grip.

quote:
It will all be true, but she will still have been raped and that's a whole lot worse than the unfairness of her not being able to (safely) get as shit faced as the boys.
You've totally lost the plot, pal.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

Working for a university, I know for a fact that pretty much every American college has a number of mandatory orientation or other sessions devoted to the topic, as well as the topic of date rape.Your assumption seems to be that "feminism" has prevented parents/colleges/societies from doing enough re prevention, yet again, every college has seminars re date rape, drinking etc. So, what is it you think these particular parents failed to do?

I already explained that the "failed to keep them safe," as best I could. I meant it as a failure of all of us, her parents just being one example, representing us all.

You know why the seminars have probably been ineffective in reducing rape on college campuses? They probably, like you, put all the emphasis on what the boy is not allowed to do. "No mean no," etc. That's fine and should be included but most of the emphasis should be away from the boy, who she can't control, and toward what she can do herself to keep safe.

I don't blame all feminism, just the new wave that has come full circle from the feminism I believed in when I was a member of NOW in the 70's. We were focused on equal rights in the work place, and we spent a lot of our time saying that women should be in control of our own bodies. We shouldn't be fired just because we got pregnant. We shouldn't have to get our husbands' consent to get our tubes tied and we shouldn't have to be married to get the pill and we should be able to do any job we wanted to do, be it factory work or engineering. It's the new wave that has turned away from women's ability to control their own destiny and encouraged them to blame all their problems on men. (I am not speaking of rape here so don't use that in your strawman arsenal.) We have encouraged young women to think that the strongest feminist is the one who acts most like a redneck man, complete with cussing, drinking and unlimited sex, and not the one who acts most like an intelligent, wise woman.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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OK, you know what, I'm done here.

Even for this board, this conversation is puke layered upon puke.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Would you extend that to "no men should get drunk in public"?

See this is the sort of flippant, high-five, each other, thing I'm objecting to. I frankly don't care whether the frat boys go to parties and get drunk because the likelihood that they are going to be overpowered and raped is negligible.
So, you are willing to let young men have the (dubious) fun of getting drunk*, but you don't want young women to have the opportunity to do the same?

I don't see anything flippant in my question, and I've no idea where any high-fiving comes in.

You're basically expressing a variation on "don't wear short skirts, off the shoulder dresses, tops revealing a little cleavage". You are wanting women to avoid doing something that they want to do, but not putting any corresponding responsibility on men. Which is a small step from Saudi Arabia, or a small step in a different direction to blaming the victim because her choice of clothing was interpreted as "asking for it". Which has me confused, because I'm pretty certain you don't want either of those.

 

*dubious because, although I've occasionally had too much to drink, never to the passing out in public stage, I've never actually enjoyed being in that out-of-control state and don't understand why some people seem to like it.

Sorry I confused you with Mousethief above.

No. Recommending that women don't get blind drunk around a group of drunken horny college boys is not Saudi Arabia and rape charges are not "no corresponding responsibility," for the men. If the men were in danger of getting raped I might recommend they not get drunk either but they aren't. Why not tell your kids to walk down the centerline of the highway if that's something they want to do? It will be the driver's fault if they get hit. Any mention that they shouldn't have been walking on the line will just be victim blaming and Saudi Arabia will be knocking on our doors.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I already explained that the "failed to keep them safe," as best I could. I meant it as a failure of all of us, her parents just being one example, representing us all.

You went on to talk in general about what we can all do-- and I agreed with you, explicitly, that we all have a responsibility to keep our young (and old) women safe. But you quite clearly began by explicitly blaming these parents, w/o knowing a single thing about them or what they did/did not do.


quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

Working for a university, I know for a fact that pretty much every American college has a number of mandatory orientation or other sessions devoted to the topic, as well as the topic of date rape.Your assumption seems to be that "feminism" has prevented parents/colleges/societies from doing enough re prevention, yet again, every college has seminars re date rape, drinking etc. So, what is it you think these particular parents failed to do?

You know why the seminars have probably been ineffective in reducing rape on college campuses? They probably, like you, put all the emphasis on what the boy is not allowed to do. "No mean no," etc. That's fine and should be included but most of the emphasis should be away from the boy, who she can't control, and toward what she can do herself to keep safe.
well, then, you would be wrong.

Again, I work at a university, I'm familiar with what the seminars entail, and no, they do include all sorts of preventative information-- including not getting drunk at frat parties. Something, again, most parents tell their girls as well.

Further, this is not just something that happens now and not "a thousand years ago" when you & I were in college and women were "chaperoned". It happened then-- a lot. The difference then was that victim shaming prevented a large percentage of rape victims from speaking out (I served on a jury for a rape trial more than 30 years ago and saw this first hand). A judgmental and puritanical society kept us from talking about the problem and prevention. I appreciate the advances that "feminism" has made in brining the topic out in the open so that someone like Emily Doe can talk honestly and openly about her experience in a way that will benefit all young women.

There may be more that we can do re prevention. God, I hope so. But just saying "don't get drunk" doesn't seem to cover it.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:




quote:
Go ahead Mousethief, encourage your daughter to go to frat parties, drink as many shots as the boys, get on the table and do a strip tease. Then after she's been raped you can shout to the skies about how none of that meant permission to rape her and the rapist should do twenty five years, etc.
You need to calm the hell down and step away from the computer. Nobody here should be talking as if anyone else deliberately puts their daughters in a position where they're likely to be raped.

Get a grip.



Er right, sorry. As I said I meant to say Alan who I had quoted, not Mousethief. I don't think Alan actually has any college age daughters so it wasn't mean to be specific just hypothetical.

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Ariston
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Strange. I attended many a frat party in my college days. Had more than a few sometimes, was around women, who themselves had imbibed more than a bit.

Number of women I ended up raping: 0.

Somehow, being in that same situation didn't magically make me evil. Somehow, it seems like it's possible for red-blooded hetrodudebros like me to keep our hands, eyes, and thoughts to ourselves, even after a couplefew.

But, if I put myself in a headspace I don't much enjoy and ponder some counterfactuals...no, I really don't see how "what she was wearing" is going to stop or slow down someone acting with malice in their hearts. "She was asking for it, the slut" can be twisted so many ways, used to justify so many things. What counts as "modest" or "clearly asking for it" is up for interpretation, and, in the mind of any criminal, that interpretation will never work out in their victim's favor.

And if you really think having a few adult chaperones or supervision of legal adults is going to do jack fucking shit, or that it indeed ever likely did in the eight hundred and fifty year history of the Western university—you're a funny little ducky, aren't you? Seriously, go read the Carmina Burana, with its tales of farmers' daughters meeting wandering students. Why, isn't the trope of sneaking out after curfew a staple of every story that involves a boarding school or college? Human society will always find a way to censor some good things, and excuse many evil ones, thanks to humanity's radical tendency to evil. No amount of supervision, modest dress, or forced repression will ever cure that; only a refusal to condone privilege, to no longer excuse immoral and heinous actions, and to make it clear that human beings are to be treated as ends unto themselves and never means to one's own selfish ends can even begin to make things right.

As a whitecisgenderedhetrodudebro, I've been told all my life—usually in relation to some girl or someone I've hacked off—that I'm not responsible for someone else's feelings. Why should women be responsible for my actions?

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
They probably, like you, put all the emphasis on what the boy is not allowed to do. "No mean no," etc. That's fine and should be included but most of the emphasis should be away from the boy, who she can't control, and toward what she can do herself to keep safe.

The entire responsibility for a crime is the perpetrator, not the victim. The focus on the perpetrator in spots like the tea vid and the slogan "no means no' is that perpetrators have failed to understand or respect what constitutes consent. It is meant to educate potential perpetrators, not ignore caution for potential victims.
The judge's focus on the rapist's future shows that there is far to go in this.

[ 10. June 2016, 14:00: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The average criminal has a low IQ and very high-self-esteem. He doesn't care what the penalty is because he doesn't think he will get caught

Holy f'n crosspost, Batman.

This here's the embodiment of the privilege and stereotyping this whole kerfuffle is about. See, criminals aren't supposed to be smart. They're not supposed to be Nice Young Men With Futures That Everybody Likes. They're thugs. Not like us. Not from good families, not going to good colleges, not bound for great things. A Stanford swimmer who loved red meat and junk food? Oh, he's a good boy, just like my son, just like me back in the day. The young Black or Brown man from across the river, born into poverty, doesn't speak lawyer's English? Thug. Lock him up.

Criminals aren't supposed to be like us. We don't recognize evil when it looks at us from the mirror. The Criminal Element is dumb. White collar crime doesn't happen, or doesn't matter, or gets you bailed out by the government, run by people who look a lot like the criminals. White privilege, class privilege, those have no effect on arrests, perception, or sentencing, right? I mean, just because I can go out, smoke some weed, spray paint some stencil graffiti, and run a couple red lights and not worry about getting arrested thanks to my class, gender, and skin color—well, that's all incidental, isn't it? Criminals are stupid sociopaths. I'm smart and humble. I'm no criminal. Can't be a criminal.

Six months to keep from ruining my bright future? Even that's too harsh.

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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cliffdweller
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sadly, all too well said, Ariston

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I don't think Alan actually has any college age daughters so it wasn't mean to be specific just hypothetical.

It's a few years yet. But, I hope that by the time my son and daughter are college age that I would have raised them well enough for them to be able to enjoy themselves having a few drinks without overdoing it, that they would know that binging is dangerous and like walking down the centre line of a major road not a good idea. I'd hope that they know how to be safe, sensible, and still have fun. That they will know to respect others, to protect anyone needing help, to trust and not abuse trust. Basically to be decent, good and sensible individuals. I've no doubt they will make mistakes, I hope they will know how to learn from their mistakes. I have no illusions that instilling such values in our children is a long term commitment to being a good father, in cooperation with others. It can't be achieved by a lecture series at the start of their time at university. I would expect that my advice to both of them would be more or less the same - study hard, do your best, make friends, have fun.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The average criminal has a low IQ and very high-self-esteem. He doesn't care what the penalty is because he doesn't think he will get caught

Holy f'n crosspost, Batman.

This here's the embodiment of the privilege and stereotyping this whole kerfuffle is about. See, criminals aren't supposed to be smart. They're not supposed to be Nice Young Men With Futures That Everybody Likes. They're thugs. Not like us. Not from good families, not going to good colleges, not bound for great things. A Stanford swimmer who loved red meat and junk food? Oh, he's a good boy, just like my son, just like me back in the day. The young Black or Brown man from across the river, born into poverty, doesn't speak lawyer's English? Thug. Lock him up.

Criminals aren't supposed to be like us. We don't recognize evil when it looks at us from the mirror. The Criminal Element is dumb. White collar crime doesn't happen, or doesn't matter, or gets you bailed out by the government, run by people who look a lot like the criminals. White privilege, class privilege, those have no effect on arrests, perception, or sentencing, right? I mean, just because I can go out, smoke some weed, spray paint some stencil graffiti, and run a couple red lights and not worry about getting arrested thanks to my class, gender, and skin color—well, that's all incidental, isn't it? Criminals are stupid sociopaths. I'm smart and humble. I'm no criminal. Can't be a criminal.

Six months to keep from ruining my bright future? Even that's too harsh.

Your two posts oh this page have so little to do with anything I have actually said that I would have no idea they were directed at me if not for the quote at the top. I was talking about the suggestion that harsher penalties might reduce rape incidents (not talking about the Stanford rape case at all) and I mentioned two known facts about typical criminals. They have lower than average IQ's and higher than average self esteem. Those are facts, not my opinion.

If you read those facts and thought I was talking about minorities, or "thugs," then you are projecting your own prejudice on me. That post that you just spewed after reading the words "low IQ," is some nasty racial bias of your own. Just like all the stuff about what women are wearing and slutty behavior that you said in your first post is what is in your mind, not mine. Even though you lied by putting those things in quotes I have not said one word about how young women dress. My whole thing has been about the danger of girls drinking to the point of not being able to defend themselves. Again your ugly mind is projecting itself against me. Slut is your word, I never use it, just as I never use the word thug.

In case you haven't read the thread, and I don't think you have, we have moved past talking about the Stanford rape and are talking about the problem of rape in general. You'll have to work harder to bring race into that or you can just brag about your fine behavior at parties a little more.

Of course Cliffdweller thinks you're brilliant.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

In case you haven't read the thread, and I don't think you have, we have moved past talking about the Stanford rape and are talking about the problem of rape in general. You'll have to work harder to bring race into that or you can just brag about your fine behavior at parties a little more.


Really? I thought this thread had become, ahem, the Twilight Zone.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Penny S
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# 14768

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I frankly don't care whether the frat boys go to parties and get drunk because the likelihood that they are going to be overpowered and raped is negligible.

Wouldn't it be advisable to care if there is a greater than negligible likelihood that some of the drunken frat boys may rape someone, and thus ruin their futures?
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

Of course Cliffdweller thinks you're brilliant.

Thank you.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I frankly don't care whether the frat boys go to parties and get drunk because the likelihood that they are going to be overpowered and raped is negligible.

Wouldn't it be advisable to care if there is a greater than negligible likelihood that some of the drunken frat boys may rape someone, and thus ruin their futures?
We'll of course that's true and drunken young men have a much greater chance of doing something to cause their own death like fall off balconies or get in car crashes but I didn't dare mention anything like that for fear someone would claim that meant I was sympathetic to the Stanford rapist.

By the way, I think he fits the mold of low IQ and high self esteem perfectly. He thought he was oh so clever and would get away with his crime by dragging his victim out of sight of the house, but he was too stupid to notice that now he was in full view of the walking path.

I knew lots of low IQ people in college, particularly among the athletic scholarship crowd. Ariston wouldn't have thought of this though being the sort of sub-conscious racist who thinks all white college boys must be smart and all low IQ people must be African American.

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cliffdweller
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I had to look it up and turns out twilight is correct-- average inmate has lower IQ than population at large and rapists reportedly lower than other felons. Some interesting theories re why.

However a Stanford student is not going to have a below average IQ. Which may go to help explain the strong stench of privilege in the judges statement / sentence. In addition to racial, economic or athletic elitism, intellectual elitism is a possible explanation. As well as a reminder that "smart" does not equal either wise or moral. And to Twilights point I would respond that I know many below average IQ youth who are still able to understand consent, consequences, and why rape is wrong

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Twilight--

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:




quote:
Go ahead Mousethief, encourage your daughter to go to frat parties, drink as many shots as the boys, get on the table and do a strip tease. Then after she's been raped you can shout to the skies about how none of that meant permission to rape her and the rapist should do twenty five years, etc.
You need to calm the hell down and step away from the computer. Nobody here should be talking as if anyone else deliberately puts their daughters in a position where they're likely to be raped.

Get a grip.



Er right, sorry. As I said I meant to say Alan who I had quoted, not Mousethief. I don't think Alan actually has any college age daughters so it wasn't mean to be specific just hypothetical.

Whoever you meant, it's still a vile thing to say.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
And to Twilights point I would respond that I know many below average IQ youth who are still able to understand consent, consequences, and why rape is wrong

Let me try to make this simple enough that you can't twist it into something else entirely.


LilBuddha had suggested that stronger sentences might serve as a deterrent to rapists. I thought that sounded like a good suggestion but I remembered from debates about the death penalty, that studies have shown very little correlation between the penalty for a crime and the amount of people who commit it. It is believed by those who are experts in the subject that most criminals don't know what the punishment for their crime is (low IQ) and don't really care what it is because they think they're too clever to get caught(high self-esteem.)

At no point at all did I imply in any way that the low IQ a criminal may or may not have should excuse what they did.

This is what infuriates me. The way you just make stuff up. You're beginning to sound like a straight up liar.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
[/qb]Originally posted by Golden Key:


Whoever you meant, it's still a vile thing to say. [/QB]

Well since you're casting judgement I hope you'll consider that before I said that to Alan he had said this to me:
quote:
You're basically expressing a variation on "don't wear short skirts, off the shoulder dresses, tops revealing a little cleavage". You are wanting women to avoid doing something that they want to do, but not putting any corresponding responsibility on men. Which is a small step from Saudi Arabia, or a small step in a different direction to blaming the victim because her choice of clothing was interpreted as "asking for it". Which has me confused, because I'm pretty certain you don't want either of those.
I thought that was sort of vile. being compared to the Taliban when I hadn't said one single word about the way young women do or don't dress or suggested for one minute that I thought any young women in any condition or state of dress were "asking for it."

My point through this entire thread has been about trying to keep women safe from rape and that's why I felt like I needed to spell out a possible tragic scenario to make parents stop and think that maybe the safety of our young women was more important than whether or not we're being 100% fair in our boy/girl party expectations.

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Golden Key
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Twilight--

But you spelled it out with an example of an actual Shipmate and family. *That's* what I thought was vile.

I think there are some communication problems, because what you say comes across to many of us very differently from what you say you mean, and vice versa. I don't think anyone is intentionally lying about what you said.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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Why is it that none of the suggestions for keeping women safe are directed at the men who attack them? Men are vastly more violent and criminal than any other gender or sex. The best way to keep women safe - and lots of other men too, and prevent all sorts of other crimes - would be to have curfews and restrictions for MEN. When is someone going to tell MEN to just stop raping? It doesn't take much effort to NOT rape.

And if it isn't fair or legal to restrict all men because of the actions of a few men, why the fuck do we to tell all women to restrict themselves because of the actions of a few men?

Fuck that shit. Fuck the courts. If there's no justice for women, there's always revenge.

Gee D, here's some more detail on the legalese:

Stanford University sexual assault case sentencing seen as too lenient by legal experts

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
... I frankly don't care whether the frat boys go to parties and get drunk because the likelihood that they are going to be overpowered and raped is negligible. ...

Yeah, well, maybe you should care, because frat boys go to parties and get drunk and rape OTHER PEOPLE. Fuck, you're dumb. You don't care that men get drunk and commit crimes, because it's up to the rest of us to avoid them. What do you tell someone who gets hit by a drunk driver? Surely you must have noticed that MADD didn't suggest we should all dodge drunk drivers; instead, they fought to have drunk drivers treated like the criminals they are. You're a fucking moron and you're arguing for rape culture because you stupidly think it makes you a rebel against the zeitgeist. Next you'll tell us that if there were no women on the planet, we wouldn't have all these rapes. Moron.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Strange. I attended many a frat party in my college days. Had more than a few sometimes, was around women, who themselves had imbibed more than a bit.

Number of women I ended up raping: 0. ...

FTW.
[Overused]

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Net Spinster
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# 16058

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BTW the training that all frosh of Turner's year included:

quote:
All incoming undergraduates were required to take new online training this summer focused on healthy relationships, sexual assault, affirmative consent, bystander intervention and related issues. That training was supplemented by in-person presentations and discussions during New Student Orientation last week.
2014 info

It btw included a video by student athletes emphasizing consent and bystander intervention

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spinner of webs

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

LilBuddha had suggested that stronger sentences might serve as a deterrent to rapists. I thought that sounded like a good suggestion but I remembered from debates about the death penalty, that studies have shown very little correlation between the penalty for a crime and the amount of people who commit it. It is believed by those who are experts in the subject that most criminals don't know what the punishment for their crime is (low IQ) and don't really care what it is because they think they're too clever to get caught(high self-esteem.)

But none of that has anything to do with this case or others like it.
Sentences like this undermine every message about personal responsibility that we have been attempting to impart. It undermines the value of women we have been struggling to build.
There will always be some inequity in any system, this case says they are not even trying to pretend there isn't.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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Yeah, but weirdly him saying that is racist.

I can't even get my mind around what she said to Alan. All I can do at the moment is point to Soror Magnum's excellent post. Cheesy is right, this is sick making.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Sorry, my last was in response to this:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Strange. I attended many a frat party in my college days. Had more than a few sometimes, was around women, who themselves had imbibed more than a bit.

Number of women I ended up raping: 0. ...

FTW.
[Overused]

Massive crosspost collision.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
And to Twilights point I would respond that I know many below average IQ youth who are still able to understand consent, consequences, and why rape is wrong

Let me try to make this simple enough that you can't twist it into something else entirely.


LilBuddha had suggested that stronger sentences might serve as a deterrent to rapists. I thought that sounded like a good suggestion but I remembered from debates about the death penalty, that studies have shown very little correlation between the penalty for a crime and the amount of people who commit it. It is believed by those who are experts in the subject that most criminals don't know what the punishment for their crime is (low IQ) and don't really care what it is because they think they're too clever to get caught(high self-esteem.)

At no point at all did I imply in any way that the low IQ a criminal may or may not have should excuse what they did.

This is what infuriates me. The way you just make stuff up. You're beginning to sound like a straight up liar.

uh huh. Nothing in what I said in the quote above or the fuller post is contrary to that. In fact, I stated the post by saying "I looked it up, and turns out Twilight is right."

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Thank you Soror Magna. None of the links I had found said that there was an absolute minimum sentence.

This is not an apology for Turner, but there must be an enormous range of sentences available. We are told above that frat boys go to parties such as this with a view to hooking up ( a term new to us, but meaning clear). I doubt that all the girls going to these parties are there to exchange recipes for sponge cakes. What if John and Jane meet one evening, find each other's company enjoyable and go the the bedroom to find out just how much they enjoy it. No-one has spiked anyone's drinks. They like it so much that Jane helps John put the condom on as he's drunk a lot and is fumbling a bit. Just as he's about to enter her, she passes out from all the alcohol she's had and her recent exertions. Because she's unconscious, any previous consent she's given must go, but John decides to proceed any rate. John tells accurately enough what has happened. Is 6 months then too lenient?

That's one extreme of course. Towards the other is a man who does spike a girl's drinks, talks about all sorts of other things, and when she's unconscious rapes her. Depending on his record etc, whether he's pleaded guilty or not, the sentencing range here would start at about 6 years before becoming eligible for parole, with an additional term of 1 year 6 months. In other words a sentence of up to the possibility of 7 yrs 6 months in gaol.

Where does Turner's case fit between these examples?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Thank you Soror Magna. None of the links I had found said that there was an absolute minimum sentence.

This is not an apology for Turner, but there must be an enormous range of sentences available. We are told above that frat boys go to parties such as this with a view to hooking up ( a term new to us, but meaning clear). I doubt that all the girls going to these parties are there to exchange recipes for sponge cakes. What if John and Jane meet one evening, find each other's company enjoyable and go the the bedroom to find out just how much they enjoy it. No-one has spiked anyone's drinks. They like it so much that Jane helps John put the condom on as he's drunk a lot and is fumbling a bit. Just as he's about to enter her, she passes out from all the alcohol she's had and her recent exertions. Because she's unconscious, any previous consent she's given must go, but John decides to proceed any rate. John tells accurately enough what has happened. Is 6 months then too lenient?

That's one extreme of course. Towards the other is a man who does spike a girl's drinks, talks about all sorts of other things, and when she's unconscious rapes her. Depending on his record etc, whether he's pleaded guilty or not, the sentencing range here would start at about 6 years before becoming eligible for parole, with an additional term of 1 year 6 months. In other words a sentence of up to the possibility of 7 yrs 6 months in gaol.

Where does Turner's case fit between these examples?

Judging by the injuries to Emily Doe, I'd say much closer to the 2nd scenario than the 1st. One of the courageous Swedes was so upset by what he saw he could barely control his sobbing when giving the report to the police.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Gee D--

Somewhere around the middle, I think.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17660 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
but John decides to proceed any rate. John tells accurately enough what has happened. Is 6 months then too lenient?

Yes. If someone wishes sex without an active and willing partner, they can masturbate.
As soon as the ability to consent is no longer present, consensual sex is also no longer present. Your scenario is why the minimum exists, there is no purpose in less than the minimum.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16604 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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Well done, Soror Magna. There is always this cry, that women should do this or not do this, to prevent rape. Quite bizarre, as if they actually cause it. Patriarchy is not dead, by a long way, but the outcry against this judge gives hope.

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no path

Posts: 9521 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But it still seems undeniable that the main problem here is the attitude of these young men to women.

Yes. This.

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Go ahead Mousethief, encourage your daughter to go to frat parties, drink as many shots as the boys, get on the table and do a strip tease. Then after she's been raped you can shout to the skies about how none of that meant permission to rape her and the rapist should do twenty five years, etc. It will all be true, but she will still have been raped and that's a whole lot worse than the unfairness of her not being able to (safely) get as shit faced as the boys.

I had missed this. Thanks, cheesy, for singling this out.

Twilight: You are a despicable excuse for a human being. Your presence on the planet is a blight for which God should be held personally responsible. All good human beings should become queasy at the sight of your name, knowing that you would post something like this. In any decent society you would never be invited to another event again. Do not ever mention my daughters again, you pustule on the anus of the world.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62951 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Mousethief,

As I already said above, using your name was a mistake, I was responding to a post by Alan where he accused me of being the same as the fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia and put a lot of words in my mouth about how women dress, etc. I was angry but I still wouldn't have said it if I had thought he had teen daughters.

My point through this entire thread has been that rape is terrible, this boy deserved to be found guilty as all rapists do and that he deserved a harsher sentence, but that keeping our daughters safe was our first concern, more important even than doing what's fair when it comes to drinking at parties. The post was meant as a "how would you feel if?" hypothetical. Just as a mother from MADD might say, "Think how you would feel if you let your daughter go out with a young man and he got drunk and she died in a car wreck-- tell her not to get in cars with drunk boys!" That wouldn't be saying the boy wasn't responsible for the wreck, it would be a plea to keep the girl alive.


Soror Magna has accused me of "arguing for rape culture:" Here are some words of mine on this thread I have cut and pasted exactly as written:

I think he should have received at least 3-4 years.
He assaulted a defenseless woman, so he should be given a sentence that is on the scale for similar crimes.
He saw the passed out girl and did something horrible, not because of wealth or color but because nowhere in his conscience was a voice
saying how wrong this was, that it was against all codes of decent behavior. If it was there it wasn't as loud as his base desires.

You may not like my ideas for keeping young women safe. I admit they are old-fashioned and paternalistic, I get horrified at the thought of rape and am willing to be old fashioned and paternalistic if it saves some girls, but saying that I am for rape is something I would call vile.

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