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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fuck the Amerixan injustice system
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Mousethief,

As I already said above, using your name was a mistake,

I must have missed your apology. As I do still.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63202 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
"Think how you would feel if you let your daughter go out with a young man and he got drunk and she died in a car wreck-- tell her not to get in cars with drunk boys!"

I'm very sorry to hear you're making an analogy of drink-driving as a stand-in for rape. Life must very confusing for you.

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Forward the New Republic

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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Mousethief,

As I already said above, using your name was a mistake, I was responding to a post by Alan where he accused me of being the same as the fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia and put a lot of words in my mouth about how women dress, etc. I was angry but I still wouldn't have said it if I had thought he had teen daughters.

The thing you're failing to appreciate is that it is a horrible thing to say about any of your colleagues on this board, however angry you are.

It wouldn't matter if you were talking to Alan, to Mousethief or to me. Indeed, by saying this shit to any of us, you're saying it to me.

You are making some claim, based on nothing at all, about how I'm bringing up my daughter, and you are saying that I'd deliberately put her in danger of rape.

If it was down to me, you'd be drummed off this board. Shame on you.

[ 11. June 2016, 13:15: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
"Think how you would feel if you let your daughter go out with a young man and he got drunk and she died in a car wreck-- tell her not to get in cars with drunk boys!"

I'm very sorry to hear you're making an analogy of drink-driving as a stand-in for rape. Life must very confusing for you.
Well I never would have made the connection myself but it I was responding to Soror Magna who had said this:
quote:
What do you tell someone who gets hit by a drunk driver? Surely you must have noticed that MADD didn't suggest we should all dodge drunk drivers; instead, they fought to have drunk drivers treated like the criminals they are. You're a fucking moron and you're arguing for rape culture because you stupidly think it makes you a rebel against the zeitgeist. Next you'll tell us that if there were no women on the planet, we wouldn't have all these rapes. Moron.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Mousethief,

As I already said above, using your name was a mistake,

I must have missed your apology. As I do still.
There was this
quote:
Sorry, I confused your name with Mousethiefs.
And this:
quote:
Er right, sorry. As I said I meant to say Alan who I had quoted, not Mousethief.
Admittedly not a lot of groveling, just a simple "sorry," but I might ask you to remember in the midst of your great outrage over mistaking your name while talking about daughters, that you have in the past, many times, deliberately made fun of my son and his schizophrenia.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Admittedly not a lot of groveling, just a simple "sorry," but I might ask you to remember in the midst of your great outrage over mistaking your name while talking about daughters, that you have in the past, many times, deliberately made fun of my son and his schizophrenia.

I think you're totally delusional.

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arse

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Twilight,

I am not joining the dogpile of condemnation of your character. However I do think you have, at best, stated your case poorly. And, if I am completely frank, I think much of it misguided. I will try once more before abandoning hope.

1. The strong focus on assigning responsibility to the perpetrator of a crime is right in the case of rape. It is never OK or justified or in any way ameliorated.

2. Everyone should make responsible decisions about their own safety and good parents/guardians will do their best to impart this.

3. Despite all the best guidance and intent, people will fuck up. Good children from good homes will do stupid things. But you know what? It doesn't matter. No matter how a person is raised, no matter how many risks they take being raped because of it is not anyone's fault but the rapist's.

4. Educating people on what constitutes rape, like the tea video, and emphasising the responsibility of the perpetrator is part and parcel of the defencive strategy you are seeming to promote, not counter to it.

ETA: Points 1 & 2 are not halves of an equation.
Rape is always 100% the perpetrators responsibility.

[ 11. June 2016, 14:23: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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I agree with everything you just said Lilbuddha, so if I have seemed not to then I truly have done a bad job of communicating here.
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Er right, sorry. As I said I meant to say Alan who I had quoted, not Mousethief.

That was not directed to me. And it was an apology for a name mistake, not for the hideous content of your post. Which as cheesy said is a horrid thing to say to any father.

quote:
Admittedly not a lot of groveling, just a simple "sorry," but I might ask you to remember in the midst of your great outrage over mistaking your name while talking about daughters, that you have in the past, many times, deliberately made fun of my son and his schizophrenia.
And I apologized profusely and swore to amend my ways, and did. May I ask you to remember this? Not much point, apparently. You really are a waste of carbon.

[ 11. June 2016, 15:06: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I agree with everything you just said Lilbuddha, so if I have seemed not to then I truly have done a bad job of communicating here.

First sensible thing you've posted. And your bad communicating includes the inability to read as well. I wrote, "hit by a drunk driver"; you changed that to getting into a car driven by a drunk driver. I wrote that you were "arguing for rape culture" and you changed that to me saying you were for rape. And yet you claim here and on other threads that other posters misrepresent or distort what you wrote. Project much? And since you think we're being mean about your son's schizophrenia - news to me - I'll say that the voices in his head probably make a hell of a lot more sense than you do.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And I apologized profusely and swore to amend my ways, and did. May I ask you to remember this? Not much point, apparently. You really are a waste of carbon.

I don't remember a profuse apology. I remember a host giving you a specific warning about it and that you stopped. I once thanked you for that.

It doesn't change the fact that your reaction to my post reeked with pearl clutching shock that anyone should ever mention a person's child and it was a little rich coming from you. What's more mine was a hypothetical case. I was not talking about anyone's specific son or daughter that I knew something about as you were then and as Soror Magna is now.

[ 11. June 2016, 17:48: Message edited by: Twilight ]

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And I apologized profusely and swore to amend my ways, and did. May I ask you to remember this? Not much point, apparently. You really are a waste of carbon.

I don't remember a profuse apology. I remember a host giving you a specific warning about it and that you stopped.
Then you have a very selective memory.

quote:
I once thanked you for that.
But still want to use it as a club.

quote:
It doesn't change the fact that your reaction to my post reeked with pearl clutching shock that anyone should ever mention a person's child and it was a little rich coming from you.
You really don't get people, do you? It's not that you mentioned (as I thought) my children. It's what you said about them. Write for meaning, for God's sake.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I agree with everything you just said Lilbuddha, so if I have seemed not to then I truly have done a bad job of communicating here.

Yeah I think we may have mentioned this a couple dozen times. But again your big problem is slowing down enough to read non-defensively. What lilBuddha wrote was a well written and concise summary of what I and others have been saying all along.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
I once thanked you for that.
But still want to use it as a club.

You really don't get people, do you? It's not that you mentioned (as I thought) my children. It's what you said about them. Write for meaning, for God's sake.

I didn't say anything "about," anyone's daughter, I said go ahead and encourage your daughters to do X and think how you'll feel if something terrible happens. It was a warning not an insult toward anyone.

I'm also not mentioning your past as a club but pointing out the irony of someone who spent years following me around making jabs about my son, now going into a huge hissy fit and telling me I don't belong on the earth and should never be invited to any event, yadayada as though the thing I did once wasn't something you had done about a hundred times. It was too much hypocrisy to let pass.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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I have never followed you anywhere, nor would I. Get over yourself.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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A guy with 60,000 posts only seems like he's always on your tail. It's an illusion brought on by sheer quantity.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Savoir Faire is everywhere.

--------------------
“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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And sensitivity. We will naturally magnify threats we perceive towards that which we care most deeply.
Though it is likely hypocritical of me to say this, I think people are seeing through their anger rather than using reason.
Not peacemaking, I am in a don't give a shit mood, everyone can go fuck themselves for all I care at the moment.
Just an observation.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I think people are seeing through their anger rather than using reason.

And talking at cross purposes, I think.

Everyone, including women, should be free to wear what they want, drink what they want, walk where they want, without having to fear being raped. When someone is raped, it's the rapist's fault, not the victim's.

But we aren't all free in those ways. Rape is the fault of the rapist, but I'd just as soon not be a victim of that crime or any other, and if I think I need to do things to protect myself, I do them. I don't walk around dangerous neighborhoods by myself at night. I lock my doors. I don't let people in the front gate at work if something seems off about them.

The summer after my sophomore year in college I briefly worked for the county picking up trash on the side of rural roads. They took us in pick-up trucks out to the middle of nowhere and picked us up hours later. One of my co-workers was a guy I went to high school with, and when I told my parents that he was on this crew and that he'd asked me for a ride home, my father made me quit the job. He didn't give much of an explantion, but I took it that he didn't want me miles outside of town with this guy, whose only offense as far as I knew was being slow and weird.

I don't know if I was in any danger. Maybe my dad knew something about this guy that I didn't. But I don't think he was contributing to rape culture by doing something he thought would protect me.

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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
In case you haven't read the thread, and I don't think you have...

Le Sigh. In case you didn't read what I wrote—and I really don't think you have—I think the point that you bloody well missed, or maybe wasn't banged through your skull with a pile driver, is that people like me get a pass for our bad behavior, while The Other gets typecast, loaded down with dog whistle imprecations, locked up, and the keys thrown away. What other conclusion am I supposed to draw from, say, comments from political leaders in the wake of Black Lives Matter and police shootings, or the current election, or the massive prison problem we have here in the Carceral States of America?

Or are you just out to handwave and cook up a few spurious accusations to cover your backside?

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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Some examples of how the media help maintain white male privilege:

Why Brock Turner's mug shot matters

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The average criminal has a low IQ and very high-self-esteem.

The average college rapist has a reasonable IQ - he's a college student.
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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

The summer after my sophomore year in college I briefly worked for the county picking up trash on the side of rural roads. They took us in pick-up trucks out to the middle of nowhere and picked us up hours later. One of my co-workers was a guy I went to high school with, and when I told my parents that he was on this crew and that he'd asked me for a ride home, my father made me quit the job. He didn't give much of an explantion, but I took it that he didn't want me miles outside of town with this guy, whose only offense as far as I knew was being slow and weird.

I don't know if I was in any danger. Maybe my dad knew something about this guy that I didn't. But I don't think he was contributing to rape culture by doing something he thought would protect me.

Your father sounds like a good guy to me. I imagine he had heard rumors along the lines of the weird guy being some sort of sexual predator. Maybe something suspected but not proven.

I hope he never told that story to people like the ones on this board, who would be angry at him for making his daughter give up a summer job she liked when she had done nothing wrong. They would say that he was blaming you when it was the weird guy who was the one at fault and the only one who should be punished.

Your father probably was too level headed to become defensive about being attacked just for trying to keep you safe, but it's possible some man in that situation might have said to the mob, "Well alright then, let your daughter work with the sex offender and see how you like it if something happens to her."

Then the mob would have an excuse to go wild and tell him how paternalistic and awful he was, exactly like the men who tell young women who get raped that it's their own fault for dressing slutty and just like the men in Saudi Arabia who don't let their daughters out of the house.


Then Ariston could tell him it was his white privilege talking.

Leorning Cniht could bring up something totally irrelevant left over from a discussion about why tougher sentences don't bring less crime.

Soror Magna could find out if someone in the family had cancer and say, "Your mind is more rotten than your brother's lungs."


Finally, Mr. Cheesy could get his greatest wish; a chance to put on his best pinafore, take up his pots and pans, and lead the irate populace as they drum him out of town, shouting, "For shame, for shame!"

Yep. Glad that didn't happen.

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Go ahead Mousethief, encourage your daughter to go to frat parties, drink as many shots as the boys, get on the table and do a strip tease.

quote:
How old are you? How much do you weigh? What did you eat that day? Well what did you have for dinner? Who made dinner? Did you drink with dinner? No, not even water? When did you drink? How much did you drink? What container did you drink out of? Who gave you the drink? How much do you usually drink? Who dropped you off at this party? At what time? But where exactly? What were you wearing? Why were you going to this party? What’ d you do when you got there? Are you sure you did that? But what time did you do that? What does this text mean? Who were you texting? When did you urinate? Where did you urinate? With whom did you urinate outside? Was your phone on silent when your sister called? Do you remember silencing it? Really because on page 53 I’d like to point out that you said it was set to ring. Did you drink in college? You said you were a party animal? How many times did you black out? Did you party at frats? Are you serious with your boyfriend? Are you sexually active with him? When did you start dating? Would you ever cheat? Do you have a history of cheating? What do you mean when you said you wanted to reward him? Do you remember what time you woke up? Were you wearing your cardigan? What color was your cardigan? Do you remember any more from that night? No? Okay, well, we’ll let Brock fill it in.
The big problem with narratives along the lines of "if you don't do X you won't get raped" is that 1) it's a lie and 2) it's a not-very-subtle way of telling rapists which are the 'right' victims. The one's everyone will cluck their tongues over and blame for their own assaults.

An interesting bit of phraseology from ESPN about the case:

quote:
The former Stanford swimmer convicted of sexual assault on an unconscious woman failed to reveal his drug and alcohol use in a letter to the judge.

Brock Turner told Judge Aaron Persky that he was an inexperienced drinker and that "the party culture and risk taking behavior" during his four months at Stanford led him to make a bad decision.

But court documents released Friday show that prosecutors cited several examples of Turner using hard drugs and alcohol at Stanford and in high school. Prosecutors say text messages recovered from his cellphone showed Turner discussing using LSD and ecstasy and smoking marijuana and dabs of butane hash oil, known as "wax," from as early as April 2014.

Court documents also show campus police gave him a ticket for underage drinking in November 2014.

"[F]ailed to reveal" is a great example of using the passive voice to shift responsibility. "Misled the court" might be more accurate, given his statements about his relative inexperience. "Lied" might be even more straightforward, but journalists usually refrain from stating anything so boldly.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The big problem with narratives along the lines of "if you don't do X you won't get raped" is that 1) it's a lie and 2) it's a not-very-subtle way of telling rapists which are the 'right' victims.



Of course it would be stupid to say "if you don't do x you wont get raped." That's why no one here has said that. I did suggest that if you don't get drunk you will be better able to fend off creeps and protect yourself, so possibly less likely to get raped. Just like if you don't leave your car unlocked, it still might get stolen, but it's less likely. "Less likely" may not seem worth the trouble to you, but I'll bet to the girl who escapes rape it's very worth it.

Oops! Maybe I shouldn't have said that. Now the thieves will know that unlocked cars are easier to steal and drunk girls are easier to manipulate. But, you know, as dumb as the average criminal is*, I doubt if they are as dumb as all that.

*and as someone is sure to point out, college boys are smart.

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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058

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The problem is the emphasis. Do we really want men wandering around who feel it is ok to rape drunk or unconscious women? Or that it is a lesser offense to do so? Getting drunk is a separate problem.

I'm a bit baffled about some of the news coverage of the Stanford graduation ceremony (I was present so have a fairly good idea what went on). Quite a few mentioned how the Turner case was protested/referred to and even mentioned that Ken Burns, the commencement speaker, referred to it. But most so far failed to mention Ken Burns 10 minute take down of an unnamed likely presidential nominee.

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spinner of webs

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
The average criminal has a low IQ and very high-self-esteem.

The average college rapist has a reasonable IQ - he's a college student.
And it's not exactly a cakewalk to get into Stanford.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

Leorning Cniht could bring up something totally irrelevant left over from a discussion about why tougher sentences don't bring less crime.

You were the one who brought up the completely irrelevant "most criminals have low IQ" in the middle of a discussion about college rape.

You can't start by arguing "criminals have low IQ, and so X, Y and Z don't work" and then turn around and apply it to a population of criminals who do not have low IQ.

Because college rapists have a similar IQ range to college rape victims, in that both are representative of the body of college students.
And no, it's not just the stupid ones who are rapists.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
The problem is the emphasis. Do we really want men wandering around who feel it is ok to rape drunk or unconscious women? Or that it is a lesser offense to do so? Getting drunk is a separate problem.

I'm a bit baffled about some of the news coverage of the Stanford graduation ceremony (I was present so have a fairly good idea what went on). Quite a few mentioned how the Turner case was protested/referred to and even mentioned that Ken Burns, the commencement speaker, referred to it. But most so far failed to mention Ken Burns 10 minute take down of an unnamed likely presidential nominee.

Huffpost covered it.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

Finally, Mr. Cheesy could get his greatest wish; a chance to put on his best pinafore, take up his pots and pans, and lead the irate populace as they drum him out of town, shouting, "For shame, for shame!"

Yep. Glad that didn't happen.

I would waste my time showing how a) I've agreed with much of what you've said and b) I objected to your personal characterisation of another user of this website but I can't be arsed.

[ 13. June 2016, 07:24: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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Golden Key
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"This Is How You Teach Kids About Consent" (The Good Men Project, via HuffPost). Really good steps, IMHO.

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Liopleurodon

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It's fine to take steps to be safer. It's fine to encourage others to take steps to be safer. Most women (I can't speak for men) do this automatically: we watch over each other, move around in groups, mind drinks and so on. Almost every parent is having discussions with their kids, checking out how trustworthy their friends seem, deciding on curfews and so on - at least while they're still at home. There is not one person on this board who wouldn't warn someone if we knew they were going to be spending time with someone who was likely to assault them. So discard that particularly nasty piece pf strawmannery.

The problem comes when someone gets raped - in this case Emily Doe - and the focus zooms in on what she did wrong. In this case what was she doing at a college party anyway? Individuals zoom in on it. The media zooms in. The courts zoom in. There's a whole spectrum here from mild to extreme victim blaming, but when a crime happens and anyone explains it primarily with reference to the victim's behaviour, that is what's happening. There's also a spectrum of advice about avoiding being raped which goes from sensible (know how you're going to get home at the end of the evening) at one end to the aforementioned Saudi gender segregation at the other.

The major difference between "don't go and drink at parties" compared with "don't get in the car with a drunk driver" is that the drunk driver is very clearly and explicitly about to commit a crime. Don't go with someone who's said they're going to break into someone else's house either. You'll be complicit in criminal activities if you do. Sure, you shouldn't go to a party with someone who says "let's go over to Jim's house on Saturday so I can rape you in the guest bedroom" but you don't tend to get that kind of warning about planned criminal activity. So the only way to completely eliminate the risk of being raped at a party is never to go to one, ever. For many people that's a miserable sacrifice.

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
There is not one person on this board who wouldn't warn someone if we knew they were going to be spending time with someone who was likely to assault them. So discard that particularly nasty piece pf strawmannery.

I think the strwmannery is yours. Here is my first post about protecting our daughters:
quote:
For thousands of years, right up until I was in college*, parties for young single people were chaperoned. Now we just throw the young women to the wolves and get outraged and angry when something like this happens.
It really should have been clear in that post and others about protecting our daughters that I was talking about society at large up until this point in history -- and not the particular people on this board. Of course the people on this board, educated, people who are particularly sympathetic to certain groups and genders, would have talked to their daughters the way Alan Cresswell very eloquently described a few pages back. That isn't everyone. Some young women aren't being taught very much at all. Equally obvious, I would think, is that society at large isn't educating their sons very well about treating young women with respect, limiting their drinking to what they can control, handling their sexual urges appropriately. I know the colleges try. Yesterday I heard a woman on NPR who teaches college classes on this very subject. She mentioned things like asking permission before every touch, continuing to ask permission at each step, etc. So they are being taught one extreme from their classes and an entirely, almost opposite, set of "rules," from their friends and what they see in movies. So no matter how nice and sensitive the children belonging to the people on this board are, I think it's hard for some out there to know where to draw the line. That's where I would like to see them protected from themselves a little until their brains and experience have caught up with them a bit more.

The above post is about the problem of sexual assault in general, not about Brock Turner. Please don't tell me he has a high IQ and should have known better and he must surely have known he crossed the line. I know all that. I am not his defender. I think he as a complete, deviant pervert who should have been given years in prison. Please quit acting setting me up as his best friend. I am sick of it.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
For thousands of years, right up until I was in college*, parties for young single people were chaperoned. Now we just throw the young women to the wolves and get outraged and angry when something like this happens.

But this is just fantasy.

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If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Lyda*Rose

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
For thousands of years, right up until I was in college*, parties for young single people were chaperoned. Now we just throw the young women to the wolves and get outraged and angry when something like this happens.

But this is just fantasy.
I agree that it looks unreal. But where do you think the glitch in the statistics comes from? Are less people reporting the crime? Are law enforcement agencies getting slipshod about reporting to this national Bureau? Or is the Bureau slipshod? Or have the parameters of reported rape changed? [Confused]

ETA: I just thought about the old Boomer effect on crime statistics. When the Boomer bulge contained many young people (especially young men) between sixteen and thirty-five the sheer numbers of most crimes were higher.

[ 13. June 2016, 14:22: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]

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Doc Tor
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When an official statistic-collecting body produces a set of official statistics, you can have a variety of responses. I'd suggest one of the better responses is "perhaps my feelings aren't the best indicator of how the world actually is".

Exhibit A (inexplicably a .xls file, but it renders fine in Firefox)

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Hiro's Leap

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I agree that it looks unreal. But where do you think the glitch in the statistics comes from?

Why should it be a glitch? My understanding was that rape rates have fallen sharply since 1970, despite more reporting etc.
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Jengie jon

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Note the dates.

Indeed, the given statistics might be expected. The fear of crime and the amount of crime are rarely correlated. What I would expect is that there would be a high water mark just after women are accepted into society unchaperoned and for it to decrease thereafter as men and women get used to the new boundaries.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

Exhibit A (inexplicably a .xls file, but it renders fine in Firefox)

So when I read that table, the information that I come away with is that violent crime, murder, robbery, and aggravated assault have all halved in incidence over the last two decades, whereas the rate of forcible rape has only reduced by a third.

Or, broadly speaking, your risk of being raped has gone down, but you would expect to encounter more reporting of rape in the press.

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Doc Tor
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More reporting of rape, full stop, since there's been a historical under-reporting of that, compared to other violent crime. But even then, the statistics don't exactly back up a "throw our daughters to the wolves" scenario.

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Liopleurodon

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Quite apart from the fact that chaperoning adults around does in fact involve a level of infantalising them and impinging upon their freedom*, I don't think it's going to work. Whenever women *are* "protected", rapists seem to feel more entitled to rape any woman who somehow lets that armour slip for a moment. And it will slip. The rapist who picks out the drunkest girl at the party to rape is going for the easiest target, but he'd still rape someone if that particular girl wasn't there - it'd just be a different person who was the easiest target.

*I suppose you could make a case for preventing underage drinking in the US. That's harder to do in places where 18-year-olds are allowed to drink.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The big problem with narratives along the lines of "if you don't do X you won't get raped" is that 1) it's a lie and 2) it's a not-very-subtle way of telling rapists which are the 'right' victims.



Of course it would be stupid to say "if you don't do x you wont get raped." That's why no one here has said that. I did suggest that if you don't get drunk you will be better able to fend off creeps and protect yourself, so possibly less likely to get raped. Just like if you don't leave your car unlocked, it still might get stolen, but it's less likely. "Less likely" may not seem worth the trouble to you, but I'll bet to the girl who escapes rape it's very worth it.

The big problem with advice like this is that it treats sexual assault like some kind of unpreventable natural disaster, like a flood or tornado, rather than a deliberate action by a human actor. Brock Turner chose to rape Emily Doe because she was the most vulnerable woman at the time. If Emily Do had been completely sober her ability to "fend off creeps and protect [her]self" would be irrelevant because Mr. Turner would almost certainly have picked someone else to rape that night. While "don't be the most vulnerable person in the group" may be sound practice on a individual level, as blanket advice for a whole class of people it's only real purpose is to shift suffering around. In other words, it's advice not so much about preventing rape as about shifting it onto women considered more 'deserving' of it.

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Oops! Maybe I shouldn't have said that. Now the thieves will know that unlocked cars are easier to steal and drunk girls are easier to manipulate. But, you know, as dumb as the average criminal is, I doubt if they are as dumb as all that.

It's more about the message that's communicated with all the blaming and second-guessing of certain classes of victims. The endless rounds of 'if she'd only been [sober / at home after dark / wearing a niqāb / whatever] she would never have been assaulted' tells rapists which victims are least likely to get them into trouble if apprehended. It's a way of supplying them with the guidelines and parameters for who to target.

quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
The problem comes when someone gets raped - in this case Emily Doe - and the focus zooms in on what she did wrong.

The increased focus on the victim and what she is considered to have done wrong also necessarily decreases focus on the rapist. This is such a commonplace and predictable phenomenon it's hard to conclude that this isn't intentional.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
More reporting of rape, full stop, since there's been a historical under-reporting of that, compared to other violent crime. But even then, the statistics don't exactly back up a "throw our daughters to the wolves" scenario.

Though people have been accused of that philosophy, none on this thread have actually advocated it.

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If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Doc Tor
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That'll be because we're ordinary decent parents, and not a bunch of fucking idiots.

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lilBuddha
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As I've said before, parenting skills are not the primary focus. Preventing rapists from raping is. Granted, there are some people who will attempt rape regardless, but a large number happen because the rapist feels entitled and doesn't consider the victim as important.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As I've said before, parenting skills are not the primary focus.

No, but refuting those who think I'm a terrible parent because, God forbid, I 'let' my teenage daughter leave the house and go to parties with boys, is necessary. If not obligatory.

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lilBuddha
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Never thought of you as a terrible parent.

Terrible person, maybe, but not a terrible parent.


rimshot

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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She seems remarkably balanced, considering. Swears like a navvy, drinks like a fish, looks like a (goth) angel, and as smart as fuck.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
For thousands of years, right up until I was in college*, parties for young single people were chaperoned. Now we just throw the young women to the wolves and get outraged and angry when something like this happens.

But this is just fantasy.
I guess that shows me. Other than the fact that this graph begins in 1973 at the height of the free love hippie movement and I was talking about years beginning in biblical times and ending when I was in college in 1965. Plus my hypothetical girls were at chaperoned parties not women over all.
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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
For thousands of years, right up until I was in college*, parties for young single people were chaperoned. Now we just throw the young women to the wolves and get outraged and angry when something like this happens.

But this is just fantasy.
I guess that shows me. Other than the fact that this graph begins in 1973 at the height of the free love hippie movement and I was talking about years beginning in biblical times and ending when I was in college in 1965. Plus my hypothetical girls were at chaperoned parties not women over all.
Not sure what you're arguing here. Is it that you don't care about sexual assaults that happen outside a "party" context? Or that all women should be chaperoned whenever leaving their homes?

Besides, if you're going to go back to "Biblical time" I think it's pretty clear that having a chaperone is no preventative to sexual assault.

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