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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fuck the Amerixan injustice system
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
More idiotic rapesplainy patriarchal "advice" that completely misses the point.

The big problem with advice like this is that it treats sexual assault like some kind of unpreventable natural disaster, like a flood or tornado, rather than a deliberate action by a human actor. ... While "don't be the most vulnerable person in the group" may be sound practice on a individual level, as blanket advice for a whole class of people it's only real purpose is to shift suffering around. In other words, it's advice not so much about preventing rape as about shifting it onto women considered more 'deserving' of it.
Bravo. Thank you.

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
.. Soror Magna could find out if someone in the family had cancer and say, "Your mind is more rotten than your brother's lungs." ...

No, I wouldn't. Lung cancer isn't funny. Mental illness is.


--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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Congratulations, Soror Magna. You have succeeded where so many have tried and failed over the past 14 years. I'm out of here.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I guess that shows me. Other than the fact that this graph begins in 1973 at the height of the free love hippie movement and I was talking about years beginning in biblical times and ending when I was in college in 1965. Plus my hypothetical girls were at chaperoned parties not women over all.

Rape wasn't less back then, just less reported. And, since men were even more in control of what defined rape, fewer things were considered rape.
I was not trying to show you up, but trying to show that perception doesn't equal reality.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
The big problem with advice like this is that it treats sexual assault like some kind of unpreventable natural disaster, like a flood or tornado, rather than a deliberate action by a human actor. ...
It would be like telling gay people not to go to nightclubs because you could get shot.

It isn't that hard not to shoot people. I didn't shoot anyone, today gay or straight. I am not even shooting anyone right now.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Congratulations, Soror Magna. You have succeeded where so many have tried and failed over the past 14 years. I'm out of here.

Please don't give the haters the satisfaction. I don't always agree with you, but I value your voice.

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Congratulations, Soror Magna. You have succeeded where so many have tried and failed over the past 14 years. I'm out of here.

Please don't give the haters the satisfaction. I don't always agree with you, but I value your voice.
What haters? I see angry disagreement, but not haters. Back down from the hysteria.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Congratulations, Soror Magna. You have succeeded where so many have tried and failed over the past 14 years. I'm out of here.

Please don't give the haters the satisfaction. I don't always agree with you, but I value your voice.
What haters? I see angry disagreement, but not haters. Back down from the hysteria.
Weellll, kinda in the middle. I think there was over-reaction and a bit more viciousness than was warranted. I think Twilight voiced her position poorly, and I do think it slightly misguided as well.
Haters? maybe not, but just because one can be a dick, doesn't mean one should be.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Congratulations, Soror Magna. You have succeeded where so many have tried and failed over the past 14 years. I'm out of here.

Please don't give the haters the satisfaction. I don't always agree with you, but I value your voice.
What haters? I see angry disagreement, but not haters. Back down from the hysteria.
I'm using "haters" in the more loose, millenial way as in "haters gonna hate" or as the Urban Dictionary says "A phrase used to express apathy towards another's disapproval".

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
.. Soror Magna could find out if someone in the family had cancer and say, "Your mind is more rotten than your brother's lungs." ...

No, I wouldn't. Lung cancer isn't funny. Mental illness is.

WTF?
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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
No, I wouldn't. Lung cancer isn't funny. Mental illness is.

Is this some sort of clever self-deprecating ironic comment that doesn't quite work or just as breath-takingly stupid as it looks?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
.. Soror Magna could find out if someone in the family had cancer and say, "Your mind is more rotten than your brother's lungs." ...

No, I wouldn't. Lung cancer isn't funny. Mental illness is.

WTF?
.
Ditto.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mr cheesy
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Lung cancer isn't funny, but someone in a mental health hospital is. Obvs.

FFS. What is wrong with you, Soror Magna? How can you not see that someone who has someone close to them with a mental illness that you know about is not going to want to see that link?

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
How can you not see that someone who has someone close to them with a mental illness that you know about is not going to want to see that link?

Worse still would be to see that and still purposefully post the link. Statistically speaking most of us will have someone close to us with a mental illness. I have.

[ 14. June 2016, 08:22: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Golden Key
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And many Shipmates have mental illness, of varying sorts. E.g., I have a couple of kinds of depression

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mdijon
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I once asked a friend what kind of depression they had. They had "The shit kind".

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Yup.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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lilBuddha
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Maria Bamford, the comedian in the link, is bipolar II. She addresses her difficulties in her routines and, IIRC, uses humour to educate about mental illness.
Even knowing this, that link felt a little disturbing.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Yes, at some other time, when I'm in an appropriate mood, I may watch it. Looking at the comments, evidently some viewers who've been in psych facilities found her routine to be both accurate and funny.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mdijon
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I didn't know that background and it changes my view of the link. But in the context on this thread and taking the text of the post in question it looks nasty and pointed rather than funny.

[ 14. June 2016, 13:22: Message edited by: mdijon ]

--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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lilBuddha
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That is what I was trying to say. I don't think it was meant to be funny.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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cliffdweller
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I don't know what Soror M's intent was in posting the link. The exchange with Twilight seems... personal and purposeful. And too dark and awful even for hell. I hope I'm reading it wrong, but doesn't seem like it.

Hell is for good, mean fun. This is not fun.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Soror Magna
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You don't and you are.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
You don't and you are.

Who are you talking to and wtf is this supposed to mean?

--------------------
overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
You don't and you are.

Who are you talking to and wtf is this supposed to mean?
I think it's a response to my post:

quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I don't know what Soror M's intent was in posting the link. The exchange with Twilight seems... personal and purposeful. And too dark and awful even for hell. I hope I'm reading it wrong, but doesn't seem like it.

So the comment confirms that yes, I don't know Soror's intent and yes, I am reading it wrong.

I hope that is the case. Perhaps it should go to PM then as it appears to be a private conversation.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Hell is for good, mean fun.

It is, but not only. You don't get to police what happens here. If you'd like to discuss the limits of Hell, Styx is ^ that way.

DT
HH


--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Hell is for good, mean fun.

It is, but not only. You don't get to police what happens here. If you'd like to discuss the limits of Hell, Styx is ^ that way.

DT
HH

Sorry-- I wasn't trying to control the conversation, just reacting to it/ commenting on it. I'll watch the wording next time.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Soror Magna
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Women are constantly barraged by well-meaning idiots with the same fucking don't drink / don't dress slutty / don't go to parties / don't walk alone / don't leave your house / don't make eye contact / don't get in elevators / etcetera etcetera etcetera. Let's not forget, "Go ahead Mousethief, encourage your daughter to go to frat parties, drink as many shots as the boys, get on the table and do a strip tease. Then after she's been raped you can shout to the skies about how none of that meant permission to rape her and the rapist should do twenty five years, etc." And "I frankly don't care whether the frat boys go to parties and get drunk because the likelihood that they are going to be overpowered and raped is negligible." The good old days of chaperones versus "throwing our daughters to the wolves". All that does, as Doc Tor pointed out, is help rapists get away with rape. And what impact does that bullshit have on the survivors? We know - self-blame, guilt, doubt, shame. I'm fucking sick and tired of that shit, I have no patience for it, and I'm quite sure survivors of assault hate it even more than I do. IT. HAS. TO. STOP.


And for the record, I've spend my fair share of time in psych wards, as have several of my friends, and we all went to see Maria Bamford and laughed our assess off. Your mileage, sensitivities, and/or grip on your pearls may vary.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
and I'm quite sure survivors of assault hate it even more than I do.

Varies, but generally yes.

quote:

IT. HAS. TO. STOP.

Yes, it does.
Not taking sides, I think it was kinda fucked up in both directions. The sad thing is the opportunity to reach someone who seemed reachable might be lost.
quote:

And for the record, I've spend my fair share of time in psych wards, as have several of my friends, and we all went to see Maria Bamford and laughed our assess off. Your mileage, sensitivities, and/or grip on your pearls may vary.

Maria is one of my favourite comedians. In part because she confronts her experience in an irreverent, but not disrespectful way. And she is damn funny. However using that sketch, with no immediate context, was OTT. IMO, obviously.

Now, I am not condemning you for doing so. It would be hypocritical, because I am certain I've crossed those lines myself. And Twilight, wittingly or not, pushed those same boundaries.
However, it should be a caution that the same people who were confronting Twilight about her remarks are also questioning yours.

Gods this is exhausting.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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When I followed the link, it was clearly a comedy sketch. I didn't know the comedienne from Eve, and had no context from the link to decide if she was some sicko getting kicks poking fun at people with mental illness, or she was someone with a mental illness poking fun at herself. But, that's irrelevant - I'm not sure anyone here is questioning the quality of the comedy, or whether or not it's in bad taste.

What we're finding distinctly odd is a link to it with the text "mental illness is funny". For those who suffer from mental illness, or have friends and family who suffer, mental illness is NOT funny. Though we sometimes manage to laugh at things from time to time. Posting that link, in the way it was posted and without any obvious connection to this thread or context is what generated the "WTF???" responses - I didn't add to the chorus because there wasn't any point, but did think it was something way out of line. If we were having a discussion of the portrayal of mental illness in the media, and whether it's an appropriate subject for comedy then the link would have been fine. But we're not, we're discussing rape and the criminal justice response to it.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
You don't and you are.

Then I don't know who is reading you right and you don't seem to be in the mood to help. It looks just plain nasty to me as well.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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lilBuddha
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To be fair to SM, I more than understand the anger and frustration. I simply think it is too strong a reaction in this case.

Not sure why I'm playing at peacemaking. I think I'm going back to angry bitch, much easier.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
... However, it should be a caution that the same people who were confronting Twilight about her remarks are also questioning yours.

Gods this is exhausting.

Fair enough, and I accept the pummelling - it's a known risk of failed black humour.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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mdijon
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Much of what Twilight posted made me angry as well. I would say it is too strong a reaction though, if that carries the sense that it turns the dial up too far. It's just the wrong sort of reaction rather than just too much of it.

There's nothing wrong with venting anger, particularly here, and expressing just how angry a particular post made you.

But picking on something personal like this to calculatingly cause hurt is just plain wrong rather than too much.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Is this some sort of clever self-deprecating ironic comment that doesn't quite work or just as breath-takingly stupid as it looks?

It was an attempt at the first, resulting in the second.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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fair 'nuff.

I'll leave before the fluffy bunnies arrive.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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RooK

1 of 6
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Is this some sort of clever self-deprecating ironic comment that doesn't quite work or just as breath-takingly stupid as it looks?

It was an attempt at the first, resulting in the second.
A worthy admission. Perhaps more usefully admitted to earlier and more clearly.
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Mertseger

Faerie Bard
# 4534

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I didn't know the comedienne from Eve, and had no context from the link to decide if she was some sicko getting kicks poking fun at people with mental illness, or she was someone with a mental illness poking fun at herself.

Bamford is kind of a national treasure here in the US, though she is not as well known as she deserves to be given her talent. She has, indeed, dealt with mental illness throughout her life culminating with stays in the psych ward and outpatient care after a national ad campaign for Target, a large department store chain, where she played hyperironically a manic shopper. She released a largely autobiographical comedy series called Lady Dynamite on Netflix last month which is surreal, intensely funny and extremely compassionate to her own journey and mental illness in general. Well worth checking out.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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Bamford is wonderful. The genius of the above piece is that she was finding the absurd in a harrowing experience of her own. It's in the same tradition as Richard Pryor's lenghthy routine about recovering from third degree burns over his torso after his crack pipe exploded.

Now, if Bamford did a routine about how Pryor was bandaged from head to foot, and how bad his blisters stank, and how he cried like a little bitch when he got his first sponge bath-- well, that would make her a huge asshole. Because it's not her experience to jeer about.

Thanks for snapping out of whatever that was, Soror Magnum.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Is this some sort of clever self-deprecating ironic comment that doesn't quite work or just as breath-takingly stupid as it looks?

quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
It was an attempt at the first, resulting in the second.

Got it, and been there myself on occasion. Thanks.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Soror Magna
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The latest roundup: cell phone, pot, LSD, fake ID, underage drinking ...

Stanford rape case: Inside the court documents

The full sentencing brief can be found here:
Brock Turner Sentencing Brief

There's lots more legal detail about the parameters for sentencing and probation. IANAL, but it's hard not to conclude that the judge, assisted by the probation department, let Turner off super-easy-peasy, either out of favouritism (likely) or stunning naivete (not likely).

And for dessert, legal victim-blaming and slut-shaming:

quote:
... The 22-year-old, who was on holiday, was drugged in a Doha hotel and woke up in an unfamiliar flat, where she realised she had been raped, her lawyer says. ...

She was arrested in March on suspicion of having sex outside of marriage. She is due to appear in court on Monday. ...

The woman may also be charged with an alcohol-related offence, news website Doha News reported. ...

Dutch woman arrested in Qatar after making rape claim

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Hell is for good, mean fun.

Where on earth did you get that idea?

[note to self: read the whole thread before replying to a post. sorry Doc]

[ 15. June 2016, 15:58: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Thanks for snapping out of whatever that was, Soror Magnum.

And again - WTF? Where's the dogpile on Soror Magnum to equal the one for Twilight?
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mdijon
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Dogpile coordinator's off day. I jumped the gun without the usual PM.

Seriously, if you want an analysis I'd say the differences are that the SM dogpile ended earlier and had fewer piling in to start with. The early stop might be put down to stopping digging and an admission of failing to communicate, the fewer pilers to start with might be due to inherent bias due to the topic or the pilee, or due to the stage in the thread. Maybe also a single nasty line with a load of single liner "WTF" and "that's nasty" responses don't get as much dogpile momentum as paragraphs of prose with paragraphs of response.

[ 15. June 2016, 16:51: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Hiro's Leap

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mdijon - I'd agree with you except it wasn't a single comment. It was preceded her saying to Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
And since you think we're being mean about your son's schizophrenia - news to me - I'll say that the voices in his head probably make a hell of a lot more sense than you do.

That wasn't self-deprecating humour.
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mdijon
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You're right, I'd missed that. Nastier and harder to explain as an error of humour judgement.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
the fewer pilers to start with might be due to inherent bias due to the topic or the pilee, or due to the stage in the thread.

The parts I left in bold are the ones I'd wager on.

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If it's not here soon, I might be done
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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Thanks for snapping out of whatever that was, Soror Magnum.

And again - WTF? Where's the dogpile on Soror Magnum to equal the one for Twilight?
I meant " snapping out of whatever possesed you to type that."

"WTF" did you read?

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Thanks for snapping out of whatever that was, Soror Magnum.

And again - WTF? Where's the dogpile on Soror Magnum to equal the one for Twilight?
I meant " snapping out of whatever possesed you to type that."

"WTF" did you read?

That's how I read Kel's statement also.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Golden Key
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Me, too.

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mdijon
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I think that's also how RuthW read it. It indicates, if I'm honest like my post did as well, an end to a dogpile over something because SM 'snapped out of it' and that seems rather different from Twilight's treatment here.

I guess the counter to that is that Twilight didn't 'snap out of it' but on the other hand as Hiro's leap has just pointed out SM's explanation seems not to cover all the nastiness posted here.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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