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Source: (consider it) Thread: Farage you utter sack of shit
Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

And he is not a sack of shit. A sack of shit has some possible use as fertiliser.

Be fair. He'd work as fertilizer, too.
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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

And he is not a sack of shit. A sack of shit has some possible use as fertiliser.

Be fair. He'd work as fertilizer, too.
He would poison the soil.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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I'm beginning to feel very uncomfortable about the way we speak of this man - and I have been guilty, referring to him as toadface, and commenting on the smallness of the back of his head. I believe I have used the word obnoxious. I was delighted when comments were made at the EU about his taking money from us for doing nothing. (I was unable to counter my friend's mother saying what a wonderful man he was and how he had spoken for her. She didn't listen to the reasonable points I did say, but talked over me.)

I'm not sure how one should be answering that of God in him, but I don't think we are.

And I don't think I should be making the remark about needing an MRI scanner, either.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I'm beginning to feel very uncomfortable about the way we speak of this man - and I have been guilty, referring to him as toadface, and commenting on the smallness of the back of his head.

I'm generally don't make personal remarks, but apart from that think most of the opprobrium heaped on him in this thread has been on point.

Watch the speech he gave today at the EUP, it was clearly designed to infuriate, do as much as possible to stymie any future agreement, all so he can keep himself in the headlines, and then come back and crow over how the EU had screwed over 'decent people' in the service of his fascist rhetoric.

There's a lifetime effect in terms of lower average earnings to those graduating/leaving school during a recession. Nigel will be fine though - he keeps his money offshore.

Voting Leave was less a vote in favor of a plan (of which there was none) than a vote in favour of whoever profited politically to make hay while the country burned.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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I wonder how he will continue to argue that it is decent ordinary people re-enacting Kristallnacht in Lewisham, for example.
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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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I note the besides the speech from the Human Tapeworm, there was also one from an SNP MEP which was received with a standing ovation. Loyal, gallant little Scotland suffering even more from the machinations of this fascist creep than the rest of you. There'll be hands rubbed in Bute House tonight.
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Huia
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# 3473

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think we weren't actually sending him on a charm offensive. I think we have turned back the clock so far we were trying to exile him to the penal colony.

Well ya missed then. NZ was never a penal colony, although escaped convicts did settle here from Australia, including my great, great granddad.

Huia

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Conversely, I think the interests of Romanian and Swedish businesses should, in the UK, be losing out to the interests of UK citizens in those situations where a conflict of interests arises.

How far down does this principle extend? A Scottish business in England? A Yorkshire business in London? A Lambeth business in Southwark?
It extends down as far as a nation state. I'm not engaging you in rocket science here. There's no such thing as a citizen of Lambeth.

[ 29. June 2016, 00:16: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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I didn't know exactly who this man is. But his intemperate and insulting speech made The National on CBC. They labelled it a "ruckus". What on earth is his appeal except to the most base of attitudes and instincts?

The additional story tonight was about the racist attacks, showing several. Is England sliding into something horrible?

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It extends down as far as a nation state. I'm not engaging you in rocket science here. There's no such thing as a citizen of Lambeth.

The end game of the European Project is a single nation state. The goal is that everyone is a European citizen, and you become a citizen of Germany, say, by being a European citizen and moving to Germany.

The EU is trying to get there by some kind of adiabatic process.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It extends down as far as a nation state. I'm not engaging you in rocket science here. There's no such thing as a citizen of Lambeth.

The end game of the European Project is a single nation state. The goal is that everyone is a European citizen, and you become a citizen of Germany, say, by being a European citizen and moving to Germany.

The EU is trying to get there by some kind of adiabatic process.

In a single nation state, the concept of being "a citizen of Germany" wouldn't make any sense.

Right now a person can be Scottish, they can live in Scotland, but they can't be a citizen of Scotland.

If the EU ever actually does become a single nation-state, a federation in the sense that places like Australia and the USA are federations, then a lot of the problems of the current system would no longer exist. It's being a halfway-house that actually creates some of the issues, because there are features of the EU that tend to be inconsistent with each other. Are the constituent nations sovereign or aren't they?

However, I'm somewhat skeptical that full federation will ever be managed. There are so many different linguistic and cultural groups that it's going to be extremely tricky.

The only thing that makes me think that it could ever be possible is the existence of India. Because it's the nearest equivalent. However, there's at least an argument that modern India only exists because of the way an external occupying force fused its component parts together.

[ 29. June 2016, 04:35: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In a single nation state, the concept of being "a citizen of Germany" wouldn't make any sense.

The US has the concept of "a citizen of Vermont" (or whichever state). It means exactly a US citizen who is resident in Vermont, but state politicians talk about "citizens of $STATE" all the time.

quote:
It's being a halfway-house that actually creates some of the issues, because there are features of the EU that tend to be inconsistent with each other. Are the constituent nations sovereign or aren't they?
Yes, that was my point. The EU is in the transition regime, where not everything exactly makes sense.
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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think we weren't actually sending him on a charm offensive. I think we have turned back the clock so far we were trying to exile him to the penal colony.

Well ya missed then. NZ was never a penal colony, although escaped convicts did settle here from Australia, including my great, great granddad.

Huia

I knew he would get lost. Anything outside the UK borders tends to befuddle him.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is England sliding into something horrible?

Yes. Without a doubt. Exactly what, I have no idea, but something very problematic.

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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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# 8891

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

And he is not a sack of shit. A sack of shit has some possible use as fertiliser.

Be fair. He'd work as fertilizer, too.
Nah - what if you wanted to grow French beans? Or Spanish onions?

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Alex Cockell

Ship’s penguin
# 7487

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I only hope there may be some way back, maybe via Nic Sturgeon?

I want the nightmare to end. Please?

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It extends down as far as a nation state. I'm not engaging you in rocket science here. There's no such thing as a citizen of Lambeth.

Give it time. Haven't you seen "Passport to Pimlico"? It'll be like that.
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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In a single nation state, the concept of being "a citizen of Germany" wouldn't make any sense.

The US has the concept of "a citizen of Vermont" (or whichever state). It means exactly a US citizen who is resident in Vermont, but state politicians talk about "citizens of $STATE" all the time.
Exactly. And Vermonters vote in Vermont state elections, but not in the state elections of New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, etc. Each state has its own constitution, a state supreme court which interprets it as well as lower courts, a state legislature, a governor, etc etc. Most important, state laws govern a lot more of day-to-day life in the US than federal laws do. It very much matters that I live in California and am governed by its laws rather than in Arizona.

The concept of being a citizen of Germany or France or wherever would make total sense if a future united Europe used the American model. I don't know if they should do so, having never given it a lot of consideration, but something akin to the federal/state system in the US would allow for local regulation and government of things like agriculture and education in the component states of a united Europe.

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chris stiles
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.. and of course, the sole UKIP member of the HoL (unelected elites anyone?), had this rather idiotically phrased idea to add this afternoon:

Lord Pearson of Rannoch: "My Lords, I am most grateful. Do the Government accept that there are about 3 million EU nationals living at present in the United Kingdom, but there are also 1.2 million British people living in the European Union? When present tensions have calmed down, why would either Brussels or London want to do anything to upset this mutually beneficial situation? Do the Government agree however, that if the EU were to get difficult with our nationals living there, it is we who hold the stronger hand if we retaliate, because so many more of them are living here?"

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In a single nation state, the concept of being "a citizen of Germany" wouldn't make any sense.

The US has the concept of "a citizen of Vermont" (or whichever state). It means exactly a US citizen who is resident in Vermont, but state politicians talk about "citizens of $STATE" all the time.
Exactly. And Vermonters vote in Vermont state elections, but not in the state elections of New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, etc. Each state has its own constitution, a state supreme court which interprets it as well as lower courts, a state legislature, a governor, etc etc. Most important, state laws govern a lot more of day-to-day life in the US than federal laws do. It very much matters that I live in California and am governed by its laws rather than in Arizona.

The concept of being a citizen of Germany or France or wherever would make total sense if a future united Europe used the American model. I don't know if they should do so, having never given it a lot of consideration, but something akin to the federal/state system in the US would allow for local regulation and government of things like agriculture and education in the component states of a united Europe.

Then how does one become a citizen of Vermont? If you're not born there, do you go through a ceremony? Do you have to renounce your citizenship of another state, or can you be a dual citizen?

Residency is not citizenship. If I lived in California, there would undoubtedly be a set of laws that applied to me that wouldn't apply to me elsewhere. But I would not be applying to become a citizen of California at any point, I would be applying to become a citizen of the United States while I was residing in California. And I became a United States citizen, I would register as a voter in California because I lived in California.

This is no different to Australian States, which have their own constitutions and their own courts and their own elections. All you are describing is a federation, like mine and like many other countries. That doesn't stop the United States of America being the single country, with a Supreme Court at the top and a national Congress and a national President. And a single citizenship in the sense that most people use the word.

[ 29. June 2016, 22:35: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Schroedinger's cat

Ship's cool cat
# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
.. and of course, the sole UKIP member of the HoL (unelected elites anyone?), had this rather idiotically phrased idea to add this afternoon:

Lord Pearson of Rannoch: "My Lords, I am most grateful. Do the Government accept that there are about 3 million EU nationals living at present in the United Kingdom, but there are also 1.2 million British people living in the European Union? When present tensions have calmed down, why would either Brussels or London want to do anything to upset this mutually beneficial situation? Do the Government agree however, that if the EU were to get difficult with our nationals living there, it is we who hold the stronger hand if we retaliate, because so many more of them are living here?"

What a piece of wank-cloth. I doubt the EU would do anything about them, but they might find that, no longer being EU citizens, their life there was harder, and would want to return. Or something. The fact that currently they can have friends to visit or visit home is surely part of the appeal?

So OK, the EU sends all of the (retired, non-contributing to the economy) ex-pats back to us, and we send all of the (contributing to our economy, earning money, doing jobs) EU workers back? I think I see who wins in that situation.

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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:


quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Is England sliding into something horrible?

Yes. Without a doubt. Exactly what, I have no idea, but something very problematic.
I guess it's the sack of shit the thread started with.

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(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Then how does one become a citizen of Vermont?

By being a US citizen and being resident in Vermont.
From the 14th amendment of the US constitution:
quote:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

quote:

That doesn't stop the United States of America being the single country, with a Supreme Court at the top and a national Congress and a national President.

Sure, and it also doesn't stop the states being in competition with each other. States routinely take actions which are intended to benefit their own citizens over the citizens of some other state.
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Yeah. To the rest of the world that's residency in Vermont. I understand that in the USA they use the word "citizen".

All I'm saying is that to the rest of the world that is not citizenship. And when I'm talking about the possible future of the EU, I'm not going to incorporate an American linguistic quirk.

The whole point is that the EU is currently not a federation in the sense that the USA, Australia, Mexico, Canada, India etc etc etc are federations. If it ever becomes one, then residency will determine eligibility for lower-level elections in a way that doesn't work BETWEEN countries. Because between countries, you can't switch citizenship merely by moving house as the 14th amendment provides.

[ 29. June 2016, 23:15: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The whole point is that the EU is currently not a federation in the sense that the USA, Australia, Mexico, Canada, India etc etc etc are federations. If it ever becomes one, then residency will determine eligibility for lower-level elections in a way that doesn't work BETWEEN countries. Because between countries, you can't switch citizenship merely by moving house as the 14th amendment provides.

Of course the EU is not such a federation. I thought we were talking about what it might become in the future.
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balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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England will be the 51st State before that happens.

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Kitten
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# 1179

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Farage has quit as head of UKIP (again)

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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Walking away from the mess you helped create seems to be a theme, does it not?
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Callan
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Teresa May is going to have stacks of plausible deniability if she becomes PM, is she not? "I am not responsible for undertakings given by Nigel Farage/ Boris Johnson/ Michael Gove (delete as appropriate)" will become a wearying refrain at the despatch box.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Ariel
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# 58

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I did wonder whether his resignation has anything to do with Andrea Leadsom refusing to rule out possibly giving him something to do if she became PM.
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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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It looks like his views haven't changed much since his school days.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yeah. To the rest of the world that's residency in Vermont. I understand that in the USA they use the word "citizen".

I have never heard somebody over the age of about 10 refer to a "citizen" of Vermont or a "citizen" of Oregon. We are residents of states, citizens of the United States of America.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have never heard somebody over the age of about 10 refer to a "citizen" of Vermont or a "citizen" of Oregon. We are residents of states, citizens of the United States of America.

I have heard many people refer to citizens of individual states. On the other hand, all those people were politicians. I'll let you decide what that means for your ten-year-old criterion.
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have never heard somebody over the age of about 10 refer to a "citizen" of Vermont or a "citizen" of Oregon. We are residents of states, citizens of the United States of America.

I have heard many people refer to citizens of individual states. On the other hand, all those people were politicians. I'll let you decide what that means for your ten-year-old criterion.
That I listen to more children than politicians?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have never heard somebody over the age of about 10 refer to a "citizen" of Vermont or a "citizen" of Oregon. We are residents of states, citizens of the United States of America.

I have heard many people refer to citizens of individual states. On the other hand, all those people were politicians. I'll let you decide what that means for your ten-year-old criterion.
That I listen to more children than politicians?
Or more children than lawyers. In my line of work, it's common to talk about citizens of states. The Constitution and laws of my state refer to citizens (or the citizenry) of the state. I would guess the same is true of other states.

A resident of the state and a citizen are often used interchangeably, but they are not necessarily the same thing. For example, convicted felons are residents of a state, but often lose the rights of citizenship. In such cases, the rights of citizenship, including the right to vote, are primarily rights under state law, not federal law.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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I stand corrected.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
Farage has quit as head of UKIP (again)

Everyone else is having a leadership contest, why shouldn't UKIP join in the game?

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31975 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
Farage has quit as head of UKIP (again)

Everyone else is having a leadership contest, why shouldn't UKIP join in the game?
Not the Liberal Democrats! In fact I fully expect to see someone's hot take on all this to be that my not having a leadership crisis at this juncture they are out of touch with the public mood and therefore unfit to govern.

Although, to be fair, the SNP, Plaid, the DUP and, indeed, Sinn Fein are currently untroubled by leadership campaigns. Given Mr Farron's Cumbrian heritage I can only conclude that this demonstrates the stolid and responsible nature of the Celtic people, as opposed to the effervescence and emotionalism of the Anglo-Saxon race. (A jibe rather wasted given that no-one from Victorian England, AFAIK, posts on the ship but in the unlikely event that Charles Kingsley is reading this [Razz] )

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9677 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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FWIW I reckon Farage is taking soundings around the lunatic fringe of the Conservative party to see if he can kick-start his career there.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have never heard somebody over the age of about 10 refer to a "citizen" of Vermont or a "citizen" of Oregon. We are residents of states, citizens of the United States of America.

I have heard many people refer to citizens of individual states. On the other hand, all those people were politicians. I'll let you decide what that means for your ten-year-old criterion.
That I listen to more children than politicians?
Or more children than lawyers. In my line of work, it's common to talk about citizens of states. The Constitution and laws of my state refer to citizens (or the citizenry) of the state. I would guess the same is true of other states.

A resident of the state and a citizen are often used interchangeably, but they are not necessarily the same thing. For example, convicted felons are residents of a state, but often lose the rights of citizenship. In such cases, the rights of citizenship, including the right to vote, are primarily rights under state law, not federal law.

Assuming they were citizens before their convictions, the first sentence of the 14th Amendment ("All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.") seems to say that those felons are still citizens of the US and of their state of residence, whatever the restrictions on their voting rights.
Posts: 1992 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
Farage has quit as head of UKIP (again)

Everyone else is having a leadership contest, why shouldn't UKIP join in the game?
Not the Liberal Democrats!
I should have put the emphasis on game. As in, playing silly buggers to amuse themselves and a few political anoraks while the country goes to the dogs around them.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31975 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
Assuming they were citizens before their convictions, the first sentence of the 14th Amendment ("All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.") seems to say that those felons are still citizens of the US and of their state of residence, whatever the restrictions on their voting rights.

True. I muddled things a little, so thanks for the correction. They remain citizens, but lose certain rights of citizenship.

But it's probably worth highlighting/repeating for the purpose of this discussion that the XIV Amendment does say "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens . . . of the State wherein they reside." Prior to this amendment, states could deny state citizenship to persons who had United States citizenship, such as free blacks.

[ 04. July 2016, 16:59: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

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Yes, it certainly supports the position that state citizenship is "a thing" (as they say), though it's not clear to me what that entails.

I have found, though, that Googling "citizen of a state" is a quick way to find lots of sites with banners like "The Real Truth - What are they hiding? Stuff the government doesn't want you to know!" I suspect that state citizenship is both "a thing" and also not really the thing that a lot of swivel-eyed loons would like it to be.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I have found, though, that Googling "citizen of a state" is a quick way to find lots of sites with banners like "The Real Truth - What are they hiding? Stuff the government doesn't want you to know!" I suspect that state citizenship is both "a thing" and also not really the thing that a lot of swivel-eyed loons would like it to be.

Half of those sites are maintained by Texans who think they're going to secede from the Union, right? And the rest by survivalists in Idaho, eastern Washington, eastern Oregon, and western Montana.
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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I have found, though, that Googling "citizen of a state" is a quick way to find lots of sites with banners like "The Real Truth - What are they hiding? Stuff the government doesn't want you to know!" I suspect that state citizenship is both "a thing" and also not really the thing that a lot of swivel-eyed loons would like it to be.

Oh yeah. Of course, many of those sovereign citizen-types also insist that the XIV Amendment is itself somehow unconstitutional.

[ 04. July 2016, 23:24: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Wasn't the Civil War meant to more or less establish that the USA really was one country? I'm sure that's what Ken Burns told me.

Anyway, the UK is working hard to outdo you on the whole question of unity or lack of it. They've been doing it in sporting competitions for years.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Wasn't the Civil War meant to more or less establish that the USA really was one country? I'm sure that's what Ken Burns told me.

In terms of states being able to secede yes. (And it was after the Civil War that we went from saying "the United States are" to "the United States is.") Of course, the XIV Amendment—which standardized qualifications for citizenship across the country and which acknowledged that people are simultaneously citizens of the United States and citizens of individual states—was one of the results of the Civil War.

BTW, while it may not be the norm world-wide, the US is not the only country where sub-national citizenship is found. In Switzerland, one is a citizen of one's municipality/commune, canton and of the Confederation (assuming one is a citizen at all). Can't say if there are other countries where sub-national citizenship exists.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2444 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged



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