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Source: (consider it) Thread: Calling Twilight and Pomona to their own damn room in a warm place
Sioni Sais
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In response to some ongoing and long-running snarking in Purgatory, culminating in hostly warnings and this post in The Styx I feel it is best for the Greater Good of All that these two precious dahlings get their own thread and leave Purgatory alone, for what might turn out to be a reasonable debate. But then again, maybe not.

[ 04. July 2016, 19:42: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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A crown in Heaven awaits you, Sioni.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
A crown in Heaven awaits you, Sioni.

Not too soon. 2016 has been a shitty year.
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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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We're always encouraged to take our questions for the hosts to Styx and yet whenever we do, there's always some hosts who act like we've dared to question the Queen in the middle of her Christmas speech.


Neither Pomona nor I have posted on the Purg thread for hours and yet no one else has posted. Maybe we weren't ruining it for the other kids all that much.

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
We're always encouraged to take our questions for the hosts to Styx and yet whenever we do, there's always some hosts who act like we've dared to question the Queen in the middle of her Christmas speech.

...ok, that was pretty funny.

I think we are all getting pissy. It's been week after week of national/ international upset. If we were all in the same area, I'd suggest we organize a Bacchanalia, just because we could use one, collectively.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Patdys
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think we are all getting pissy...

It's only been ten bloody years- about time! [Razz]

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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
We're always encouraged to take our questions for the hosts to Styx and yet whenever we do, there's always some hosts who act like we've dared to question the Queen in the middle of her Christmas speech.

...ok, that was pretty funny.

I think we are all getting pissy. It's been week after week of national/ international upset. If we were all in the same area, I'd suggest we organize a Bacchanalia, just because we could use one, collectively.

What a wonderful idea, just a couple of months after the quack has ordered me off booze.
[Frown]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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rolyn
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Don't think the popcorn vendor is going to be very busy on this one sioni. Never-mind, worth a try.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Don't think the popcorn vendor is going to be very busy on this one sioni. Never-mind, worth a try.

No matter. It's for Pomona and Twilight to strut their stuff.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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jacobsen

seeker
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A Bachannalia? Is that another word for shipmeet?

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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.

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Golden Key
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Yes, with Bach played 24/7! [Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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lilBuddha
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Pomona,

You have accused Twilight of "vicious transphobia". Nothing in her post suggests this in any way I can see. At worst, I see ignorance. I see no hate in that post at all.
I understand your desire for proper understanding of gender concerns, but it is unreasonable to expect everyone to know what all the labels are, especially as they are evolving rapidly and many of the people they concern don't even understand what they mean.
The LGBT+ is called a community. It is not a cohesive one. Hell, bisexuality is feared amongst many of the older "members". Many of the older community, at least those I know, would be baffled by the labels you take as given. To expect the "straights" to understand without assistance is not realistic.
I often want to yell at people for not getting it with racism and sexuality and I sometimes actually do. But it isn't helpful if it appears they might be amenable to education.
I will not tell you how to feel. I will say I think, in this case, you are reacting to something that was not presented.
You can tell me to that I am wrong, I might be.


for background, begin reading here.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
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Pomona, I am so sorry I made you cry.

I was actually trying to say that I think transgender people should be able to identify any way they want and, of course, to use whatever bathroom they want to use.

I don't know what I said to make you think I was transphobic. I have always believed that we are all born somewhere on a wide spectrum between the two most commonly named genders. I think that it is all too easy for infants to be misidentified at birth. I also believe that in our world full of food additives, medications, environmental factors and chemicals it is very easy and increasingly common for a fetus to develop gender features that do not fit easily with the mind of the child to come.


My heart goes out to every person who has to deal with variances that are seen by others as "not normal."

Just as an example, a member of my family didn't go through puberty at all due to a pituitary injury. That person has had to deal with questions and curiosity of others, including doctors, the inability to have a sexual relationship or to have children, always looking many years younger than their actual age and endless other problems. I love this person very much and would do anything to make life easier for them.

I'm not sure what I said to upset you so much but I am very sorry I did.

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mousethief

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Twilight [Overused]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Gee D
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Like lilBuddha, I can't see anything phobic at all about Twilight's post - not transphobic, not homophobic, nothing phobic at all. What I can see is an inability to understand the jargon, invented words and labels littering Pomona's post. Who can blame her for that?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Liopleurodon

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The world is moving very, very quickly when it comes to attitude changes and awareness of transgender issues. The language is changing to reflect that. I believe strongly that members of a group should be able to work out which language they feel most comfortable with, and the language that trans people use is still very much a work in progress. It's particularly important for trans people, I think, because up until now the language used has generally been something done to them, without any regard to their feelings or the accuracy of it.

That said, because of the rapidity of change, it can be difficult to keep track unless you're actively trying to do so (which I am, and even I sometimes get caught out). So I think it's helpful to distinguish between people who have a problem with trans people, and people who basically mean well but are a bit out of date. Twilight probably falls into the second category.

I want to be clear though, that when someone calls you out on language about trans people, it isn't a case of petty people pissing about with language in a PC police way and yelling at everyone. It's a group who've never been listened to before still getting the message across about what they want to be called and what they want to say.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I want to be clear though, that when someone calls you out on language about trans people, it isn't a case of petty people pissing about with language in a PC police way and yelling at everyone. It's a group who've never been listened to before still getting the message across about what they want to be called and what they want to say.

I agree with your post overall, but this last paragraph calls for some comment. If you're a part of any group that seeks to get its message across its seems to me important that you talk in a language that is generally accepted and understood in the community at large. Pomona's posts aren't written in that sort of language, but rather in a jargon available only to a very few.

[ 06. July 2016, 11:48: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Liopleurodon

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But that's how the language changes and develops. The "select few" in this case are trans people and their allies. They're putting those terms out there and people are picking them up. The hope is that they become more common. It's not elitist. It's more of an early-adopter thing.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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Gee D
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Any suggestions on how we can pick them up? The usage in Pomona's posts is as opaque as it could be and whatever meaning she may have intended is obscured. It's hard to learn from those posts.

The second point which Twilight made was the persistent usage by Pomona of labels - everyone is herded into a group to which a label is given - as if all members of the group agree on everything which she attributes to that group. It's a technique frequently used by sociologists, and to my mind, is lazy and stereotypes badly.

[ 06. July 2016, 12:18: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
They're putting those terms out there and people are picking them up. The hope is that they become more common.

It's very hard for the terms to become more common when they're changing them all the bloody time. Especially when using a term that's now a week out of date gets one accused of [this week's term]phobia.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
...I believe strongly that members of a group should be able to work out which language they feel most comfortable with, and the language that trans people use is still very much a work in progress. It's particularly important for trans people, I think, because up until now the language used has generally been something done to them, without any regard to their feelings or the accuracy of it.
... It's a group who've never been listened to before still getting the message across about what they want to be called and what they want to say.

That's fine, but she's also using her labels to describe people not in that group and who don't choose to use them. She would refer to me as "cishet" but I can assure you that is not a way I would ever describe myself.

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Liopleurodon

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"Cishet" is just short for cisgender and heterosexual ie not LGBT+. It's a purely descriptive term. I'd probably write cis/hetero myself, but I'd use basically the same term. I don't really see what the problem is with it. Though I may be about to find out, I guess.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
"Cishet" is just short for cisgender and heterosexual ie not LGBT+. It's a purely descriptive term. I'd probably write cis/hetero myself, but I'd use basically the same term. I don't really see what the problem is with it. Though I may be about to find out, I guess.

The biggest problem from my POV is we weren't told what it meant. But then everybody knows I'm too lazy to Google, so fuck me.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Any suggestions on how we can pick them up?

This is actually a real problem. Wikipedia is useless on two fronts. You need to know what you are looking for and the descriptions try too hard to be scholarly and end up being difficult to parse.
Many sites tend to assume you know something to start. Adn do a poorer job than they think in cluing the uninitiated.

Try here. Not perfect, but they try to keep it clear.


quote:

The second point which Twilight made was the persistent usage by Pomona of labels - everyone is herded into a group to which a label is given - as if all members of the group agree on everything which she attributes to that group. It's a technique frequently used by sociologists, and to my mind, is lazy and stereotypes badly.

This link by no prophet on the origin thread speaks of the internal dissonance.
I do not think Pomona is being lazy.
We all think our views are the most correct, it is a difficult thing to step outside, especially when who one is is misunderstood, dismissed and denigrated.

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
She would refer to me as "cishet" but I can assure you that is not a way I would ever describe myself.

Part of this is because you are in a "default" group, you do not need to.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
She would refer to me as "cishet" but I can assure you that is not a way I would ever describe myself.

Part of this is because you are in a "default" group, you do not need to.
Just as neurotypical people don't refer to themselves as neurotypical.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
"Cishet" is just short for cisgender and heterosexual ie not LGBT+. It's a purely descriptive term. I'd probably write cis/hetero myself. . .

Yeah, that would have helped me. I know what cis/cisgender mean and, of course, what heterosexual means. But I don't think I had ever seen "cishet" written out. Even in the context of this discussion, I read "cishet" as "si-shet," thinking it was a new term I hadn't heard before. I did google it, and then realized I was reading it wrong. I think when I'd heard the term before, my mind had seen it as "cis-het."

The point being, even something simple like spelling can hinder comprehension.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Pomona, I am so sorry I made you cry.

Nothing to the attacks of ocular rotation Pomona can cause.
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
But that's how the language changes and develops. The "select few" in this case are trans people and their allies. They're putting those terms out there and people are picking them up. The hope is that they become more common. It's not elitist. It's more of an early-adopter thing.

yes, this.


quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Any suggestions on how we can pick them up? The usage in Pomona's posts is as opaque as it could be and whatever meaning she may have intended is obscured. It's hard to learn from those posts.

The same way we learn any new vocabulary-- repetition. The "early adopters" use the term as frequently as possible and provide clear, understandable definitions. The trick is to do so as non-defensively as possible, to not assume phobia or prejudice among those who have not yet been exposed to the new terminology.


quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

The second point which Twilight made was the persistent usage by Pomona of labels - everyone is herded into a group to which a label is given - as if all members of the group agree on everything which she attributes to that group. It's a technique frequently used by sociologists, and to my mind, is lazy and stereotypes badly.

The fact that we use labels is not in and of itself lazy or stereotyping. It is, in fact, a normal and useful human function. Our brains are designed to do that from infancy for a very good reason-- that's how we learn. We learn very early on to group similar things in categories-- "people walk upright and have two arms and legs; dogs are furry and bark and walk on four legs." Then, a bit later on, we learn that there are exceptions to the rules-- some humans have only 1 leg or none, some crawl on the ground (usually toddlers) rather than walking upright...

As has been detailed upthread, advocating the elimination of all labels racial or otherwise, however well-meaning it might be (and it usually is) tends to increase inequality, rather than decrease it (which I assume is the goal). This happens because "color blindness" tends to obscure the underlying problems-- the "starting point" differentials, and assume a level playing field. When you don't use any labels you won't know about the inequalities. If, for example, you never notice or collect data on race in reference to policing or incarceration, you won't have any way to know if there is an underlying inequality there. You won't see the problem, which pretty much guarantees that the problem will not be addressed or resolved.

Of course, there are problems with labeling-- one, as you note is stereotyping. Another, as Twilight noted, is the way labeling tends to make us see people as the label rather than as a person first and foremost. Those are real issues and need to be addressed with diligence. But the solution is not the eliminate all labels-- both because it is impossible (it's just the way our minds work) but also because it is unhelpful. The solution is to be diligent and careful and thoughtful in the ways we use labels.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
She would refer to me as "cishet" but I can assure you that is not a way I would ever describe myself.

Part of this is because you are in a "default" group, you do not need to.
Just as neurotypical people don't refer to themselves as neurotypical.
Yup. Some people do object to "cisgender" but from a linguistic perspective "cis" is just the opposite of "trans" - remaining on the same side rather than crossing over. Often what the objection amounts to is "I don't need another word for normal!"

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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Lyda*Rose

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# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:


quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
She would refer to me as "cishet" but I can assure you that is not a way I would ever describe myself.

Part of this is because you are in a "default" group, you do not need to.
Personally, I'm old fashioned enough to refer to myself as hetero. I will do my best learn how other people like to refer to their membership in different populations. But I'd definitely take it amiss if someone tried to correct me when I was referring to myself as hetero, and insisted that I refer to myself as cishet. I think everyone has the right to choose their own labels as long as they are not demeaning to others. Also, I'd appreciate some patience while I'm on the learning curve.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Liopleurodon

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I don't think that's very likely to happen though. It'd be like someone saying "I'm a white man" and getting the response "No, you're a WASP!" It'd be a really weird "correction" to make.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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Lyda*Rose

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True.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Paul.
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If you want to read something articulate from someone who rejects the cisgender label try this:

Am I cisgender?

[ 06. July 2016, 18:24: Message edited by: Paul. ]

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
If you want to read something articulate from someone who rejects the cisgender label try this:

Am I cisgender?

Excellent piece. Thanks for sharing this.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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What I think she misses is that she might not have a strong gender identity because she doesn't have a conflict.
Oh, and pedantically, a vagina is not a secondary sexual characteristic.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
What I think she misses is that she might not have a strong gender identity because she doesn't have a conflict.

That begins to sound circular.

I was thinking maybe there are orthogonal scales -- One is strength of identity (up and down), and one is gender one identifies with (left and right). If one identifies entirely as a female, but feels like this woman feels, they would be in the lower left hand corner. A person who doesn't give a rip what gender they are (one thinks of Vi Hart), would be bottom center. Someone who vehemently rejects the gender binary would be top center. Transgender people would presumably be in the upper corners.

quote:
Oh, and pedantically, a vagina is not a secondary sexual characteristic.
I noticed that too. If having a vagina is secondary, I wonder what example she'd give of a primary sexual characteristic? She must have mis-spoken.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Twilight

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I've been reading about my new word all day and I'm glad I researched it a little before I took it out in public to impress my book club.

Quite a few sources considered it a form of insult.

Dictionary.com says cishet is "usually disparaging and offensive."


Urban Dictionary finds it particularly angry and confrontational.


So like some other words that have reasonable Latin roots and are "just short for," something longer, (the short form of homosexual for example) it can seem perfectly fine on the surface but is considered an insult based on the hostility with which it is most often used.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I don't think that's very likely to happen though. It'd be like someone saying "I'm a white man" and getting the response "No, you're a WASP!" It'd be a really weird "correction" to make.

Remind me to introduce you to Pomona sometime. She's exactly the sort of person who would insist on making such a correction.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I've been reading about my new word all day and I'm glad I researched it a little before I took it out in public to impress my book club.

Quite a few sources considered it a form of insult.

Wellll, not quite an accurate statement, IMO. ISTM, the Queer Dictionary have the most accurate take.
quote:
The use of "cishet" by the LGBT+ and feminist community has been a source of some controversy, It may be occasionally used in what are perceived as ad hominem or straw-man arguments when addressing cisgender heterosexuals, and this has led to many perceiving it as an insult. In gender, cishet is a shorthand descriptive term and not a slur.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Remind me to introduce you to Pomona sometime. She's exactly the sort of person who would insist on making such a correction.

I will be among the first to acknowledge that Pomona's posts can appear to lack some of the social niceties. But try to understand why that might be.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I've been reading about my new word all day and I'm glad I researched it a little before I took it out in public to impress my book club.

Quite a few sources considered it a form of insult.

Dictionary.com says cishet is "usually disparaging and offensive."


Urban Dictionary finds it particularly angry and confrontational.


So like some other words that have reasonable Latin roots and are "just short for," something longer, (the short form of homosexual for example) it can seem perfectly fine on the surface but is considered an insult based on the hostility with which it is most often used.

I'm not sure that first definition on UD is exactly a calm, measured appraisal of the word's use in society. "... who have the audacity ..." is not exactly a neutral definition. This person has an axe to grind and is not to be trusted to give a fair rendering of the word's social/emotional impact.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I've been reading about my new word all day and I'm glad I researched it a little before I took it out in public to impress my book club.

Quite a few sources considered it a form of insult.

Dictionary.com says cishet is "usually disparaging and offensive."


Urban Dictionary finds it particularly angry and confrontational.


So like some other words that have reasonable Latin roots and are "just short for," something longer, (the short form of homosexual for example) it can seem perfectly fine on the surface but is considered an insult based on the hostility with which it is most often used.

I'm not sure that first definition on UD is exactly a calm, measured appraisal of the word's use in society. "... who have the audacity ..." is not exactly a neutral definition. This person has an axe to grind and is not to be trusted to give a fair rendering of the word's social/emotional impact.
Of course, you're right but that's how the Urban Dictionary has always worked. Everyday people say what they think a new or slang word means and the others vote on whether the definition fits their understanding of the word. That person's definition received the most votes because the majority of people who had encountered the word had perceived it the same way.

No it's not Webster's but it's how this new word is used on the street and probably at least as fair an understanding as the Queer Dictionary, which would be biased in favor of the people who use it to describe others. It's the people who are on the receiving end of the word who would know best how it feels to be called that.

If I as a white person, invented a new word to describe people of some other race, it would be those people, not me, who could best decide if the word seemed insulting.

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mousethief

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You're ignoring power differential.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

If I as a white person, invented a new word to describe people of some other race, it would be those people, not me, who could best decide if the word seemed insulting.

It wasn't invented as an insult, the people who use it as an insult use straight as an insult as well.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

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Breeder, on the other hand....

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Breeder, on the other hand....

You should have been to the café in Centennial Park - breeder was frequently by used by waiters about non-gay men. The Eastern Suburbs ladies, bearers of numerous children, were fawned over and gave large tips in response......

Upthread, someone raised the issue of early adopters. All well and good if a suitable explanation is given. However, some use a newly invented word as a tool of exclusion. Probably the inventor of cisgender got her indentured position from it, maybe even at Associate Professor level.

A mate of ours, a doctor who also happens to be gay, went to a transgender conference here for professional reasons. One of the papers, delivered by an academic, roundly criticised the use of the word "transgender" saying that it was alienating and demeaning to the extent that transgender people hated it. He very foolishly asked what the research was behind that comment. After 10 minutes of abuse, he found, as you might expect, that there was none. Nor could he find out what the recommended word was.

Labelling need not be lazy, but unfortunately that is a lesson that Pomona has not yet learned.

[ 07. July 2016, 07:31: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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lilBuddha
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And this, children, is why drink posting is a bad idea.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Liopleurodon

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
What I think she misses is that she might not have a strong gender identity because she doesn't have a conflict.

That begins to sound circular.

I was thinking maybe there are orthogonal scales -- One is strength of identity (up and down), and one is gender one identifies with (left and right). If one identifies entirely as a female, but feels like this woman feels, they would be in the lower left hand corner. A person who doesn't give a rip what gender they are (one thinks of Vi Hart), would be bottom center. Someone who vehemently rejects the gender binary would be top center. Transgender people would presumably be in the upper corners.

Yup, there's definitely some truth to this. In fact when I first started to think/learn about trans people I found it quite easy to understand how, for example, someone who was born with a penis could nonetheless feel "I am definitely a woman, not a man". This is because that's how I feel about my gender (albeit I wasn't born with a wang). So it makes sense to me that someone else might feel that way. What I found harder to understand were people whose gender identity was not so binary.

As I've met more people and had more conversations, I've met:

- a fair few whose gender identity is basically "meh - I guess I'll go with what I have because it's easier, but I don't really care"

- some who are more "if I had completely free choice I'd switch to the other binary gender, but I don't feel strongly enough to go through all the crap trans people face"

- some who are "I feel very uncomfortable being identified as a man OR a woman and I'd really rather you used neutral pronouns"

- and some who are "I absolutely must change this body, this life as my birth-assigned gender. It's all wrong and I hate hate hate it. The only way I can live with myself is to change the body to match the brain."

What I'm getting at here is that there are a lot of these kinds of articles about and the problem with them is that they have a sample size of one. Examining how you yourself feel about gender is a worthwhile thing to do, but not if it results in "I don't feel that way, so I don't understand why anyone else would. They're probably mistaken / lying / making it up for attention / nuts / just in need of some help to realise how wrong they are." How one person feels about their own gender gives VERY limited insight. In my own case, I'm embarrassed to say that I was initially quite eye-rolly about nonbinary people. These days I have to say that I still don't instinctively "get it" but that's okay. I don't have to. There are a lot of things I don't understand that are nonetheless real.

In actual fact, the main rules for not being an arsehole towards trans people are generally pretty simple:
- use the pronouns and the name that the person wants you to use.
- don't ask/speculate about the contents of their underwear.
- don't treat the existence of trans people as the punchline of a joke.

Do these and you're 99% there, and considerably closer than almost all the mentions that trans people get on television.

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Doublethink.
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It does help if people actually tell you what pronouns etc they wish you to use, often you are effectively expected to guess from self-presentation - and that can be difficult to do if people have a non-traditional presentation of gender.

For example if meet a person in wearing a skirt with a name that could go either way (e.g. Hilary) and hair growing fomr their chin - but not to a length and extent that would normally be described as a beard: I don't know if they are a radical feminist woman who doesn't believe in altering their appearance / shaving body hair to conform to the male gaze, a man who beleives he shouldn't have to conform to traditional male clothing conventions, a man who lost a bet or a non-binary person combining gender signals.

What I can be fairly sure of, is that asking someone's gender in these circumstances is likely to offend depending upon which of these groups the person identifies with.

[ 07. July 2016, 11:13: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Liopleurodon

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Yeah that's a tricky one. One answer I've seen given a lot is "you should ask everyone their pronouns! Never assume!" which makes me wonder what planet the person is from if they think we can put that into practice and not get punched in the face within the week.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Yeah that's a tricky one. One answer I've seen given a lot is "you should ask everyone their pronouns! Never assume!" which makes me wonder what planet the person is from if they think we can put that into practice and not get punched in the face within the week.

Indeed! Then again, I'm pretty unlikely to meet a person such as Doublethink describes in a month of Sundays.

I have no idea what research (if any) has been carried out, but a fellow on my floor does a lot pf personal injury work - car accidents, work accidents and so forth. He has been involved in a number of cases where an injured plaintiff feels that they are a woman trapped in a man's body (never the other way around) - but had no such feelings before the accident.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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