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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Calling Twilight and Pomona to their own damn room in a warm place (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Calling Twilight and Pomona to their own damn room in a warm place
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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And we need another pronoun. 'They' is already taken. It's not impossible - remember the stooshie about 'Ms'? How a woman had to be either Miss or Mrs? How nobody could pronounce it? Now it's standard.

An 'ee' sound preceded by almost any consonant would work. From which it should be easy to form the other possessive forms - zee, zees, zine, zeeself. Or start from 'twi' which already has sense coexistant or interstitial states.

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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

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I suppose it might be a cop out, but unless I know what someone prefers, I tend to go with avoiding pronouns where I can. Other than that I'm happy to use whatever terms the person involved prefers.

Personally, as a cisgender, mainly straight woman who chose not to have children, I passionately hate the term "breeder" especially as I've usually heard it said with disgust. At the same time I can understand people who have been oppressed by being on the receiving end of name calling (and worse)not being fussy about the labels they use toward someone who belongs to a group by whom they have been oppressed.

Or is "breeder" regarded as a neutral term by some people?

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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kingsfold

Shipmate
# 1726

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quote:
posted by Firenze:
And we need another pronoun....
snip...
An 'ee' sound preceded by almost any consonant would work. From which it should be easy to form the other possessive forms - zee, zees, zine, zeeself.

Close. AIUI zie is in use already in this context.

ETA: Sorry - poor choice of link; try here

[ 07. July 2016, 12:33: Message edited by: kingsfold ]

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I came to Jesus and I found in him my star, my sun.
And in that light of life I'll walk 'til travelling days are done


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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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I think "breeder" is regarded as a slightly insulting term, a rather tongue-in-cheek slur that probably arose as a response to homophobic slurs. This kind of slur directed at the dominant group is a bit odd, as it doesn't have the full force of societal oppression behind it. It's a bit like "honky" or "cracker" for white people, or many of the vaguely insulting words western Europeans have come up with for people from their neighbouring countries - a bit insulting, but not having the real force behind them that many racial slurs do.

That said, I don't like slurs of any kind and avoid using them. And yes, it's perfectly understandable to dislike being called a "breeder".

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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Huia
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# 3473

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That's helpful Liopleurodon. New Zealanders and Australians tend to have those kind of vaguely insulting terms for each other - I have been known to refer to Australia dismissively as "New Zealand's largest off shore island" but the few times I have heard "breeder" it has been like being sworn at. I think I probably need to take it less personally, they are attacking what they might think I stand for, not who I am.

Having once seen someone on the receiving end of some vicious verbal gay bashing (and intervened as best I could) I can understand a desire to hit back. Hell, I wanted to find some nasty words to use towards the attackers myself.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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I tend to, when discussing heterosexual people in the context of discussing cishets and LGBT+, use the term "breeder" to refer to myself and my fellow, well, breeders. Some of my best friends are gay™, including some who would definitely tell me if it bothered them. None have, so I am assuming this case of appropriating an insult isn't offensive.

(OTOH I think, what right does somebody have to be offended if I willingly accept a rude sobriquet that they or a group of which they are a member and I am not assign to me?)

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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If cishet is a thing, are people using transhet?

I ask because there's actually no point to replacing "heterosexual" or "hetero" with "cishet" unless there's a place for emphasising that there are transgender people who are heterosexual.

"Cisgender" is perfectly adequate as a contrast to "transgender". "Cishet" (or the clearer "cis/hetero") is only of practical use if you're actually discussing sexuality as well as gender.

[ 08. July 2016, 08:06: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If cishet is a thing, are people using transhet?

I ask because there's actually no point to replacing "heterosexual" or "hetero" with "cishet" unless there's a place for emphasising that there are transgender people who are heterosexual.

"Cisgender" is perfectly adequate as a contrast to "transgender". "Cishet" (or the clearer "cis/hetero") is only of practical use if you're actually discussing sexuality as well as gender.

The reason why they're lumped together in "cishet" is that they're lumped together in "LGBT". The reason that they're lumped together in "LGBT" is that all these groups experience discrimination, although obviously no one person is LGB AND T. The fact is, though, that LGBT is the "group" that has been thrown together, just as "people of colour" have nothing necessarily in common other than their not being white and being marginalised as a result. If you're going to draw the lines in this way, sooner or later you need a term that means "not LGBT." For better or worse, this is the one that someone has come up with and it does the job.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I am allowed to claim it excludes me because I am, for want of a better neologism - cisL ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Obviously if you're a lesbian you aren't cishet. Nor, for that matter, am I.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
If you're going to draw the lines in this way, sooner or later you need a term that means "not LGBT." For better or worse, this is the one that someone has come up with and it does the job.

I think the point I was making was that "heterosexual" does exactly the same job, unless you're particularly wanting to allow for transgender heterosexuals.

Which one might well be. I don't know. My limited experience is that when people are talking about transgender issues, there's not usually much focus on whether the transgender person is homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual.

[ 08. July 2016, 11:43: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Obviously if you're a lesbian you aren't cishet. Nor, for that matter, am I.

I am cis gendered, I am not heterosexual. Using the combo term cishet vs lgbt is problematic.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Obviously if you're a lesbian you aren't cishet. Nor, for that matter, am I.

I am cis gendered, I am not heterosexual. Using the combo term cishet vs lgbt is problematic.
In which case the problem is really with two different things (gender/orientation) being lumped together to form the LGBT+ grouping. In fact once you start factoring non-binary people it becomes even more confusing. Is a non-binary person who only dates men considered gay or straight or bi? None of the labels quite work.

The thing is that cishet vs LGBTQAI (yeah I know, that's a bunch of letters but I'm going to include queer, asexual and intersex here) does kinda work. Either you are (cisgender + heterosexual) or one of the other letters applies. Cisgender and heterosexual is considered the "default" characteristic. You must be both to not be LGBT+.

In reality all cishet tends to mean is "society is not fucking you over on the basis of your gender or orientation". Like WASP means that you have a privileged status in the USA in terms of race and religion. The existence of WASP as a term doesn't mean that you can't be white and RC, but if you are, it's a term that doesn't apply to you.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
If you're going to draw the lines in this way, sooner or later you need a term that means "not LGBT." For better or worse, this is the one that someone has come up with and it does the job.

I think the point I was making was that "heterosexual" does exactly the same job, unless you're particularly wanting to allow for transgender heterosexuals.

Which one might well be. I don't know. My limited experience is that when people are talking about transgender issues, there's not usually much focus on whether the transgender person is homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual.

Doesn't the "T" stand for "Transgender"? If so then if you're transgender + straight, you're still transgender, and you're still covered under LGBT+.

LGBT doesn't mean L and G and B and T. It means L or G or B or T.

[ 08. July 2016, 14:38: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Liopleurodon

Mighty sea creature
# 4836

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Part of it, I suspect, is for historical reasons. Transgender people have in the past (and sometimes still are, erroneously) simply been regarded as having an extreme version of gayness. The old concept of an "invert" was some kind of weird blending of sexual and gender nonconformity. I guess that's how gay and trans people ended up converging into the same space. But of course, most gay people are cis, and trans people have the full range of possible sexual orientations.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
and you're still covered under LGBT+.

But still, marginalised.
Think of Christians being described as Catholic, Protestant and Others. Others covers all the possible variations, but misses directly addressing the Orthodox, Anglican...

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
and you're still covered under LGBT+.

But still, marginalised.
Think of Christians being described as Catholic, Protestant and Others. Others covers all the possible variations, but misses directly addressing the Orthodox, Anglican...

Which brings us right back around to the alphabet soup. How can you cover everybody? You simply cannot. At some point you have to stop building the perfect acronym because it becomes too unwieldy. It's just simply not possible to mention every possible configuration of sexuality and gender and so forth every time you mention it, particularly as people with new self-descriptions come to light. Language just can't work that way.

Frankly I'm just happy when they include an "Other" category and don't assume that Catholics and Protestants make up the whole of Christianity. I don't mind sharing "other" with Anglicans if they don't mind sharing it with me. I do bathe.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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I don't think any configuration/extension of the current acronym will suit. Queer has negative connotations that not everyone is willing to ignore.
It is possible that this will change enough to be a universal word, but another might be better.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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AmyBo
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# 15040

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I think "breeder" is regarded as a slightly insulting term, a rather tongue-in-cheek slur that probably arose as a response to homophobic slurs. This kind of slur directed at the dominant group is a bit odd, as it doesn't have the full force of societal oppression behind it. It's a bit like "honky" or "cracker" for white people, or many of the vaguely insulting words western Europeans have come up with for people from their neighbouring countries - a bit insulting, but not having the real force behind them that many racial slurs do.

That said, I don't like slurs of any kind and avoid using them. And yes, it's perfectly understandable to dislike being called a "breeder".

I was called a breeder in college when I, as a bisexual woman, asked a Lesbian for the information to attend the LGBT support group on campus. (They had to keep meeting time and location secret for legitimate safety concerns.) I hate that term. It meant I couldn't talk to anyone about my sexual identity. I still kind of cringe when I hear the B in LGBTQ+, because in my experience that B was never welcome.

(edited for spelling/my ego)

[ 09. July 2016, 05:09: Message edited by: AmyBo ]

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I think "breeder" is regarded as a slightly insulting term, a rather tongue-in-cheek slur

No - it's a very insulting term. It's particularly abusive when applied as a functionary term to those people who would love to have children, but don't or can't.

I know you say that it is a term used in response to aeons of homophobic abuse (for which we should all regret and repent of), but surely the better way is love? Why fight insult with insult - it won't help the case with the die hards, only reinforce prejudice

As for cishet, again it's a label (like "white") that I (for example) don't choose for myself. Therefore I would kindly, sincerely and gently invite others not to use it of me.

Quite apart from anything else I am neither defined by my colour, race/ethnicity nor sexuality. As a matter of policy I never answer questions of colour, race or sexuality under any circumstances - as I try not to pigeonhole people myself. That includes enquiries from hospitals or government departments. I simply write "I do not answer these kind of abusive questions" on the form.

[ 09. July 2016, 06:42: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I think "breeder" is regarded as a slightly insulting term, a rather tongue-in-cheek slur

No - it's a very insulting term. It's particularly abusive when applied as a functionary term to those people who would love to have children, but don't or can't.

I think the point is that is how the term is generally used. How it is received is a different thing.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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This discussion demonstrates precisely the effect of the personal becoming political. It remains personal, but everyone is suddenly accountable to everyone else for the expression of their own experience and their treatment of everyone else's.

The fact that the range of sexualities is lumped together in a rather simplistic political agenda does not mean that they make easy bedfellows, and I do wish people would stop trying to bully them into doing so.

Pomona is a classic example of this kind of cloth eared, boned headed bully. Stop barking, start listening. We all need to listen to each other, whatever our experience. My experience as a gay man in the church has not been entirely easy, and still isn't, but it doesn't give me the right to bark orders at everyone else and never listen to their experience.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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Forgive the double post, but I need to point out that I am not required to make myself into a doormat either. Nor does it mean that I won't interrogate the experience of others, and challenge their right to impose their conclusions on me. It simply requires me to treat them as persons, with their own experience, and not simply as political pawns to be moved out of my way as I charge relentlessly forward unto some kind of victory.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Evensong
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# 14696

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Twilight was called to hell and I missed it?

*sigh*

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a theological scrapbook

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Twilight was called to hell and I missed it?

*sigh*

You've missed quite a bit. Serves you right for attending to that "real life" thing.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I think "breeder" is regarded as a slightly insulting term, a rather tongue-in-cheek slur

No - it's a very insulting term. It's particularly abusive when applied as a functionary term to those people who would love to have children, but don't or can't.
Yes, I can imagine.

I don't know if it's a cross-pond difference or not, but I have only heard the term applied to me once in my entire life-- and that, interestingly, was 32 years ago, when I was holding my first child (so obviously, literally a "breeder"). I had never heard of that use of the term before and was a bit shocked, although it was apparent it was being used as a slur of some sort. Have never heard the term used in RL since in any context.


quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

As for cishet, again it's a label (like "white") that I (for example) don't choose for myself. Therefore I would kindly, sincerely and gently invite others not to use it of me.

Quite apart from anything else I am neither defined by my colour, race/ethnicity nor sexuality. As a matter of policy I never answer questions of colour, race or sexuality under any circumstances - as I try not to pigeonhole people myself. That includes enquiries from hospitals or government departments. I simply write "I do not answer these kind of abusive questions" on the form.

I hear "cishet" as more of a clinical term. Not something I'd expect to hear in casual conversation, more like something I'd come across in a journal article or academic discussion (or the Ship). As such, I have no problem with it. Of course, words have a life of their own so no telling how the usage might evolve over time. But as a clinical descriptor it seems harmless enough.

The problem with saying "I don't see color/gender/sexuality/labels" has been noted above. It's something that can only be said from a position of privilege-- you don't see labels because you don't need to see labels. There are real problems with use of labels, hence the instinctive distaste. They DO tend to cause us to see people as the label and not the person. But getting rid of labels all together inevitably means you obscure real discussions of real problems among marginalized groups. The example above of recording race in reference to policing and/or incarceration is an excellent illustration of why some use of labeling is essential to addressing problems of marginalization and oppression.


quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:

The fact that the range of sexualities is lumped together in a rather simplistic political agenda does not mean that they make easy bedfellows, and I do wish people would stop trying to bully them into doing so.

Is that happening? [Confused] (honest question). I had understood the "lumping together" to be voluntary-- marginalized groups seeking solidarity to address common concerns. Who is doing the bullying-- and why?

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:

The fact that the range of sexualities is lumped together in a rather simplistic political agenda does not mean that they make easy bedfellows, and I do wish people would stop trying to bully them into doing so.

Is that happening? [Confused] (honest question). I had understood the "lumping together" to be voluntary-- marginalized groups seeking solidarity to address common concerns. Who is doing the bullying-- and why?
It's a curious double bind: first groups with little in common other than what they aren't (i.e. cis-gendered and heterosexual simultaneously) come together looking for safety and power in numbers, and then among them there's a sort of arms race, with those who claim the prize for being most marginalised asserting at the same time the exclusive right to speak on behalf of the whole "alliance". There is in particular a move afoot, to my mind at least, to exclude the voice of gay men, to see us as oppressive because we are male and cis-gendered, while at the same time claiming our campaigning energies. Which, in my unhumble opinion, can fuck the fuck off.

[ 09. July 2016, 14:57: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]

--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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ah, thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. And yeah, f*** that.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

Quite apart from anything else I am neither defined by my colour, race/ethnicity nor sexuality. As a matter of policy I never answer questions of colour, race or sexuality under any circumstances - as I try not to pigeonhole people myself. That includes enquiries from hospitals or government departments. I simply write "I do not answer these kind of abusive questions" on the form.

To use your example of inquiries from hospitals: We now know, for example, that women who go to the ER while suffering a heart attack are far more likely to be misdiagnosed and sent home w/o proper treatment than men, are far less likely to get an EKG. That may be because medical personnel have a subconscious prejudice that women are "complainers" or hypochondriacs. Or it may be because symptoms of a heart attack among women are different from those among men.

In either case, the reason we know this is because hospitals ask about gender. Because medical records include gender, researchers are able to go back and do a study of initial diagnosis and treatment, and determine if their are racial, gender, economic or other disparities. This is also how researchers were able to determine that women's symptoms are typically different than men's. We wouldn't know this if we weren't recording gender.

Because we know about the disparity, we are now able to undertake education campaigns to inform both ER personnel and women about the disparity, and about the different symptoms for men and for women.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
ah, thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. And yeah, f*** that.

Just because everyone else hates you, doesn't mean you cannot hate each other as well.
The struggle for rights has always included misogyny, fear of bisexuals, not understanding the trans community at all and being as baffled by intersex, 2 spirit as the straights. Not to mention racism, classism, etc.
Thunderbunk is correct in that the alliance has been less than smooth.

[ 09. July 2016, 15:23: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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ThunderBunk

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

The struggle for rights has always included misogyny, fear of bisexuals, not understanding the trans community at all and being as baffled by intersex, 2 spirit as the straights. Not to mention racism, classism, etc.
Thunderbunk is correct in that the alliance has been less than smooth.

Hmmmm. Yes, that's the full list of sins I had in mind. Of course, there's the potential for them to exist, but it grates when one is found guilty of them merely by virtue of ones existence. Conviction in advance of evidence is not the way forward for anyone or anything.

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ThunderBunk

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I suppose the real point is that diversity among the rainbow alliance needs to be celebrated and accommodated, rather than being elided, even annihilated in pursuit of a clear, marketable message. We are all human, all have aour story to tell.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I think "breeder" is regarded as a slightly insulting term, a rather tongue-in-cheek slur

No - it's a very insulting term. It's particularly abusive when applied as a functionary term to those people who would love to have children, but don't or can't.

I think the point is that is how the term is generally used. How it is received is a different thing.
If you say I am at fault in being sensitive (ie how I receive it - even if no hurt intended), then you are effectively saying man up to everyone who is oppressed.
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
[... then you are effectively saying man up to everyone who is oppressed.

pun intended?

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
If you say I am at fault in being sensitive (ie how I receive it - even if no hurt intended), then you are effectively saying man up to everyone who is oppressed.

What I said directs fault towards no one. It is simply stating that one might feel insult where none was intended. This does not inherently absolve the speaker or condemn the offended.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Liopleurodon

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
It's a curious double bind: first groups with little in common other than what they aren't (i.e. cis-gendered and heterosexual simultaneously) come together looking for safety and power in numbers, and then among them there's a sort of arms race, with those who claim the prize for being most marginalised asserting at the same time the exclusive right to speak on behalf of the whole "alliance". There is in particular a move afoot, to my mind at least, to exclude the voice of gay men, to see us as oppressive because we are male and cis-gendered, while at the same time claiming our campaigning energies. Which, in my unhumble opinion, can fuck the fuck off.

There is a bit of a backlash against white cis gay men at the moment, but it is that - a backlash, because for a long time there's been a bit of an assumption that white cis gay men could speak for all LGBT people. There's nothing wrong with being a white gay man, obviously. The problem is that - for example - the needs and concerns of black trans women have been ignored. In the UK, many people treat the official Stonewall line like it represents the LGBT "hive mind". Which is a problem for three reasons:

- there is no hive mind.
- Stonewall has a particular demographic of supporters which tilts towards white, middle class and cisgender, and it cares most about those people's needs. This is a vicious circle since people outside this demographic can't be bothered to campaign for an organisation that doesn't care about them, so nothing changes.
- Stonewall really didn't have any interest whatever in trans people's rights until very recently. People thought it represented LGBT people, but it didn't represent the T at all.

So what happens? First of all, someone notes the problem that the people who are being heard are only a subset of LGBT people. Then others are encouraged to speak, and white cis gay men are encouraged to shut up so that others can be heard.

From the perspective of an individual white cis gay man, though, this comes across as "shut up. You aren't persecuted enough to have an opinion." Which can't feel very welcoming. It actually comes from wanting to amplify the voices of groups that need to be heard, but it looks like the oppression olympics.

In all of this, there are a few people who love suddenly being in a situation where their marginalised status outside the movement gives them more status within it. They may enjoy yelling at people. Humans are human. Experiencing a lot of shit from society doesn't make you a saint. But it's only a few people.

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mousethief

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White cis men in general have a hard time shutting up and letting other people speak.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
White cis men in general have a hard time shutting up and letting other people speak.

What's your evidence for that?
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
White cis men in general have a hard time shutting up and letting other people speak.

What's your evidence for that?
All Lives Matter.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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ThunderBunk

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The process Liopluerodon is talking about tells you just about everything you need to know about the idiocy of identity politics as it has been played out for the last twenty years or so. If you look at how it started, in the case of gay men (which is the one I know most about, being a gay man and all), it was started through groups of actual people coming together to deal with real, practical problems. The campaigning was a product of those relationships and their desire to work together as people; the results flowed from that.

Around the early 1990s, there was a hugely regrettable change. Gay rights became a brand; this evolved into lesbian and gay rights, though in fact this was always an awkward alliance because of the tension between sexuality and gender as foci of political identity. More and more different groups allied themselves, without any discussion as to how the actual people and their experiences fitted together, or didn't.

It's not surprising, therefore, that certain groups were not regarded as, for example, campaigning for trans rights. They weren't set up to do so, and the hard work required to get the members' active agreement and participation wasn't done. Effectively, they were presented with a fait accompli.

That doesn't work. Identity is not a brand; it's a critical part of experience. Campaigning zeal is powered by that experience, and a lot of the work that, to my mind, has been bypassed needs to be done before the rainbow alliance becomes anything other than an empty slogan. All members of that alliance are guilty to some degree of trying to ignore the complexities it creates, but they are huge, and may well be unworkable. Experience of gender, for example, is legitimately different, and to expect all the cisgendered people, both men and women, in the entire alliance to subjugate and effectively deligitimate their own experience in favour of that of transgendered people seems to me to be a demand that has never been articulated, never mind debated or agreed. There is no community because there is no dialogue. It's just a process of shouting, and of trying to be the voice shouting loudest.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

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ThunderBunk

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I've just thought of a tl;dr for all of that. "We're not like them" is a magnificently ineffective basis on which to achieve anything positive.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

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Doc Tor
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Hostly furry hat on

Thunderbunk, your sig seems to have crept over the 4-line max we permit for the orderly and ship-shapedness scrolling of threads.

Would you mind awfully changing it back to meet approved standards?

DT
HH

Hostly furry hat off


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Forward the New Republic

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ThunderBunk

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Hopefully, this is now done.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

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Doc Tor
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Cheers.

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Forward the New Republic

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
White cis men in general have a hard time shutting up and letting other people speak.

What's your evidence for that?
All Lives Matter.
Not something I'm aware of ... citation/link?
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lilBuddha
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Here is a link.
Any dominant group will see the advancement of other groups as a threat, even if it is simply and equalisation of power/attention. If you cannot see this, it probably means you are a member of such a group.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
All members of that alliance are guilty to some degree of trying to ignore the complexities it creates, but they are huge, and may well be unworkable.

Why? no one suggests that it needs to be a homogeneous group, just that core concerns are better addressed commonly. I do not need to feel what a trans-person feels to understand that they, too, have experienced pain. That they too deserve to be who they are, unmolested.

quote:
Experience of gender, for example, is legitimately different,

Yes, but that is secondary to the main thrust of the idea of the "movement". The primary focus should be that everybody has the right to be who they are, regardless of whether or not someone else understands them. This is not to say expressing/understanding what other groups are going through is unimportant, but that understanding should not be required to accept that their struggle is equally worthy.

quote:

There is no community because there is no dialogue. It's just a process of shouting, and of trying to be the voice shouting loudest.

Despite this not being a million miles from what I have been saying, I think this is more a generational thing. IME, it is more the older folk who have trouble. Younger tend to see less importance in the specific definitions of identity. This is in part due to not having the same level of struggle, of coming of age in a different environment.

quote:
It's not surprising, therefore, that certain groups were not regarded as, for example, campaigning for trans rights. They weren't set up to do so, and the hard work required to get the members' active agreement and participation wasn't done. Effectively, they were presented with a fait accompli.

This is a messed up attitude. It is entirely to human, though. People care less about equal rights for everyone than they do that their group is not disadvantaged. And it is natural that a gardener might feel a twinge of resentment when the some fruit of the tree s/he has tended falls on the other side of the garden wall, to be enjoyed by someone else. But this does not diminish the tree or the fruit the gardeners themselves enjoy.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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ThunderBunk

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lilBuddha, I think you're discounting what I was saying about the connection between campaigning and experience. To my mind, there is a limit to how far a whole logic of campaigning based on experience can be stretched. At its breaking point, the campaign ceases to be a matter of the personal becoming political, or at least of being each person's personal becoming political. It becomes a matter of identifying with another person's struggle and assisting them, which is no less noble, in fact arguably more so, but it is radically different.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

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lilBuddha
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I will admit I am not entirely certain I understand the point you are making.
I will state my POV this way:
Because I have felt prejudices for simply being who I am,* I empathise with others who have felt prejudice for who they are. It doesn't matter if I understand exactly what they are going through. They are my allies, not matter that we do not share all the same difficulties, no matter how long they've appeared to be part of the struggle for acceptance.
I am not noble. The more soldiers, the easier the war.


*I applaud those who have not, yet still support the struggle.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Liopleurodon

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There's also the issue that axes of marginalisation are not mutually exclusive. There's a really complicated Venn diagram of categories of people experiencing marginalisation for different reasons, and there are intersections. This is one reason why it's simply not good enough to allow the most dominant/privileged subset of a group to speak for everyone - bell hooks has written about her frustration at finding that the anti-racist movement was dominated by black men while the feminist movement was dominated by white women, and black women found themselves ignored by both movements. Likewise, the feminist movement was very hostile to lesbians in decades past, and there's a small but very vocal subset of feminists who are extremely hostile to trans women to this day. So in some senses it isn't even about trying to smoosh too many identities into one group. It's about recognising that those people were always there in that group, from the beginning, but they've been ignored because of a more general cultural bias that says they aren't as important.

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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale

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