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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Calling Twilight and Pomona to their own damn room in a warm place (Page 3)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Calling Twilight and Pomona to their own damn room in a warm place
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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I think I get most of that.

One of the things that actually saddens me about how things have developed since I came out in the early 90s (how old...?) is that I think a lot of empathy and subtlety which went with exploration and acceptance of non-standard experience has been chucked with far too much enthusiasm under the bus of assimilation, in the name of acceptance. For example, I think the narrative of gender among gay men has lost just about all of the subtlety it was starting to explore at one stage, and our gender identity has become very two-dimensional until the threshold of transgender identity is crossed. I really regret the loss of that subtlety, and the unreflectiveness that goes with it. This move has necessary effects on our place in the rainbow alliance.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I think I get most of that.

One of the things that actually saddens me about how things have developed since I came out in the early 90s (how old...?) is that I think a lot of empathy and subtlety which went with exploration and acceptance of non-standard experience has been chucked with far too much enthusiasm under the bus of assimilation, in the name of acceptance. For example, I think the narrative of gender among gay men has lost just about all of the subtlety it was starting to explore at one stage, and our gender identity has become very two-dimensional until the threshold of transgender identity is crossed. I really regret the loss of that subtlety, and the unreflectiveness that goes with it. This move has necessary effects on our place in the rainbow alliance.

I've not been getting much sleep lately, so perhaps that explains it, but I am not sure what you are saying.
Is it that just being gay, or lesbian, feels less special?
I do not see assimilation as much as I do the lessening of the need to stand out. Perhaps another difference in generational experience.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17097 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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What I'm musing on (possibly in the wrong place but there we are) is what happened as the campaign started to work, as acceptance and equal treatment started to become the standard experience for gays rather than a very welcome exception.

For a short period, the non-standard element of our experience started to be heard. This, for example, is when I first started to hear about "two-spirit" ideas, but in respect of gay men rather than transgender people (it was in a rather Edward Carpenterish context, so referring specifically to gay men). Then the effort required stopped happening, because the energy which brought the initial success dissipated, and we settled into acceptance within standard gender definitions.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2147 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
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# 13815

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ThunderBunk, harking back to your post of 12 July at 19.52, do you think that numbers has something to do with it? Running the sort of campaigns that you were talking of takes a lot of people, and a lot of time. Working on the basis of 5% of the population being gay, that gives around 15 million lesbians and gays in the US to contribute their time and effort. You need numbers of this sort because people work and have other parts of their life to lead. Here, where you're looking at around the 1m mark and so a lot of the campaign relied upon work done in the US to provide a model.

I don't know how many transgender people there are in Aust, nor have I seen any terribly reliable estimate. From that, I'd imagine that the number is probably pretty low, and again guessing, I'd say the real number in intersex people is even lower. Even with the much larger population of the US, the numbers you end up with are probably too few and too widely spread to enable any equivalent of the sort of work you talk of. Is it any wonder that they seek to build on all your work in the past?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6771 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... I don't know how many transgender people there are in Aust, nor have I seen any terribly reliable estimate. From that, I'd imagine that the number is probably pretty low, and again guessing, I'd say the real number in intersex people is even lower. ...

No need to guess.

Privacy and, unfortunately, shame, probably distort our perceptions of presence / absence / numbers.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5396 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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The ideas are not new, though labels change. Carl Jung discussed the inner femininity and masculinity resident in all of us. The difference today is probably the wide discussion of such issues, and is that we are anticipating that we should act or self-identify as two-spirit, gender fluid etc as a crystallized and solid self. There's a difference between a persona (more than a mere role, which I think the word in English connotes) and a firm identity.

I have difficulty accepting (perhaps not understanding) how what was a developmental process can become an achieved identity. The "gender fluid" termy perhaps leading astray?

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11173 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... I don't know how many transgender people there are in Aust, nor have I seen any terribly reliable estimate. From that, I'd imagine that the number is probably pretty low, and again guessing, I'd say the real number in intersex people is even lower. ...

No need to guess.

Privacy and, unfortunately, shame, probably distort our perceptions of presence / absence / numbers.

Thanks - quite small and those numbers are unlikely to translate into a large enough population to support the campaigns of which ThunderBunk was writing.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6771 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
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# 9881

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quote:
Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female: one in 100 births

Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance: one or two in 1,000 births

The numbers are there. However, in most cases, only close family, friends, or medical professionals know who they are and it has no impact on how others perceive them. A person who is not being discriminated against has little incentive to "come out" and march with a sign saying "I WAS BORN WITH AMBIGUOUS GENITALIA!!! HOW COOL IS THAT??!!!".

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5396 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female: one in 100 births

Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance: one or two in 1,000 births

The numbers are there. However, in most cases, only close family, friends, or medical professionals know who they are and it has no impact on how others perceive them. A person who is not being discriminated against has little incentive to "come out" and march with a sign saying "I WAS BORN WITH AMBIGUOUS GENITALIA!!! HOW COOL IS THAT??!!!".
Unless they are sick and tired of hearing the abusive, nasty things people in society are saying about them and people like them, and want to stand up against it.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63202 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged



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