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Source: (consider it) Thread: Dear American police
Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Comparing an unconscious rape victim and a gun wielding man in the act of a crime doesn't seem quite fair to me.

A man tasered and pinned to the ground by two police officers is not exactly what most people would think of as "a gun wielding man in the act of a crime". By that point any "gun wielding" and crime would be well and truly in the past tense. But "a man who had been reported waving a gun around at some point prior to the arrival of the police" doesn't have the rhetorical ring to it, nor does changing the "act of a crime" to "flogging dodgy CDs".
The press seemed to prefer the
Father of five selling CD's story for the first week or so. That's what left me wondering why the police would even show up for selling CD's. After a while I became curious and dug a little deeper to find out the call had been about a man threatening people with a gun and that the police were familiar with the suspect because he had a long rap sheet and was known to be violent.

That information makes the policeman's actions and his fear of the man a little easier to understand. It's still just as wrong but easier to understand.

What I don't understand is the number of people who aren't interested in the truth at all but rather in painting every scenario as if it was a 1940's Hollywood movie where the characters are either evil in every way or innocent lambs. In this case the press wrote a story of brutal, racist police and an innocent family man working hard to provide for his children. They did a fine job of fueling a national outrage.

The trouble is that wasn't strictly true. As it looks so far, the real story is simply about police over reacting and killing a man unnecessarily. We shouldn't have to be shown a false story about the victim being a devoted family man who was only selling CD's for that to be wrong. We shouldn't act like children who can't understand that there are nuances and two sides to every story.

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Another side of the story.
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Actually I've seen quite a few pictures of Alton Sterling with his children and the words "Father of Five," above it as though he was the devoted family man from a fifties sit-com.

If "could have starred in a sit-com in the 1950s" is the standard you're going to apply, it's unsurprising no black people seem to be able to meet it. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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The only parts of the story that matter are the actions of the participants. It does not matter who a person is or what they have done. All that matters is what they are doing at the moment they are shot. If the situation is under control, and it clearly is in both videos, there is no justification for shooting.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
All that matters is what they are doing at the moment they are shot. If the situation is under control, and it clearly is in both videos, there is no justification for shooting.

If he was, in fact, reaching for a gun in the waistband of his trousers, then he situation was not under control.

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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If. If he was and if he did not properly inform the officer.
The man lying on the ground and shot would have had to have demonstrated telekinesis to be a threat.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Actually I've seen quite a few pictures of Alton Sterling with his children and the words "Father of Five," above it as though he was the devoted family man from a fifties sit-com.

If "could have starred in a sit-com in the 1950s" is the standard you're going to apply, it's unsurprising no black people seem to be able to meet it. [Roll Eyes]
Yes, if I had called it a standard and said "could have starred in." You might almost have had point.

The pictures and the "father of five," business called those shows and their stereotypes to my mind. That was all.

Maybe you are incapable of looking at a photo of a man and his family and thinking "Father Knows Best," unless that man is white. Yes, the man in this picture is black and very few blacks were on TV at that time, but there are lots of tropes from that period that apply to people of all colors.

Just as some people like Liopleurodon read "he was a convicted felon," and think "deserves to die," while I, who wrote those words, only thought "reason for him not being able to legally carry a gun."

In other words, I think in your eagerness to accuse others you're only revealing yourselves.

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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The only parts of the story that matter are the actions of the participants. It does not matter who a person is or what they have done. All that matters is what they are doing at the moment they are shot. If the situation is under control, and it clearly is in both videos, there is no justification for shooting.

It clearly is not under control in either video.

Sterling is resisting arrest, with his right arm free and out of view under the car and a pistol in his right pocket. The officer reacted to the presence of a gun, and a known violent felon.

Castille is near death when that video starts, but a gun is visible in his lap. There is no way to judge the events leading up to the shooting but the officer reacted to the presence of a gun, and a subject matching the description of an armed robbery suspect.

--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If. If he was and if he did not properly inform the officer.
The man lying on the ground and shot would have had to have demonstrated telekinesis to be a threat.

Are you saying that he was incapable of reaching for the gun, if there was one? Was he handcuffed?

Moo

--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:

Sterling is resisting arrest, with his right arm free and out of view under the car and a pistol in his right pocket. The officer reacted to the presence of a gun, and a known violent felon.

So, first fuck you. Fuck you up the arse, through to the top of your head with a razor-wire wrapped, molten hot rusty farm implement.* I watched the video. At the very best, those bastards are incompetent.
quote:

Castille is near death when that video starts, but a gun is visible in his lap. There is no way to judge the events leading up to the shooting but the officer reacted to the presence of a gun, and a subject matching the description of an armed robbery suspect.

Matching the description of a robbery suspect. Most of that description would be black male, I bet. That is all the description police generally need to treat all black people as suspect.

The darker you are, the more likely you are to be harassed, have your rights violated or killed. Only an idiot believes otherwise.

*For the cognitively impaired, that is hyperbole.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If. If he was and if he did not properly inform the officer.
The man lying on the ground and shot would have had to have demonstrated telekinesis to be a threat.

Are you saying that he was incapable of reaching for the gun, if there was one? Was he handcuffed?

Moo

I'm saying that the officers had control. If they thought they did not they were not competent to do their job.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I'm saying that the officers had control. If they thought they did not they were not competent to do their job.

I gather that the claim made by those defending the officers' actions in this case is that Alton Sterling's right arm was not restrained at the time, and that it was making motions towards his gun.

If this claim is correct, then the statement "the officers had control" isn't accurate.

And if that's true, then we should ask questions about the takedown that the two officers performed on Mr. Sterling: 1. Was it necessary? 2. Was it effective? Two officers and a taser were apparently unable to subdue one man - is this bad training or bad equipment?

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Actually I've seen quite a few pictures of Alton Sterling with his children and the words "Father of Five," above it as though he was the devoted family man from a fifties sit-com.

If "could have starred in a sit-com in the 1950s" is the standard you're going to apply, it's unsurprising no black people seem to be able to meet it. [Roll Eyes]
Maybe you are incapable of looking at a photo of a man and his family and thinking "Father Knows Best," unless that man is white.
That's right. I have trouble picturing someone as part of the all-white cast of a Segregation*-era comedy unless that person is white. What's interesting to me is why such an obviously racially-constructed art form is considered to be the touchstone of good fatherhood, even to this day.


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*That's a bit unfair. The "Springfield" portrayed in Father Knows Best is somewhere in the Midwest, so it was probably a sundown town rather than a segregated community in the strictest sense of the term.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Montrell Jackson is my idea of a good father and a real hero. If you need to sanctify someone, why not him?
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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I'm saying that the officers had control. If they thought they did not they were not competent to do their job.

I gather that the claim made by those defending the officers' actions in this case is that Alton Sterling's right arm was not restrained at the time, and that it was making motions towards his gun.

If this claim is correct, then the statement "the officers had control" isn't accurate.

They should have had control.
quote:

And if that's true, then we should ask questions about the takedown that the two officers performed on Mr. Sterling: 1. Was it necessary?

Need more info, but it does not seem that way.
quote:

2. Was it effective?

Obviously not.
quote:

Two officers and a taser were apparently unable to subdue one man - is this bad training or bad equipment?

Definitely bad training. American police do not do deescalation very well.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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AIUI, people have varying reactions to being tased. Some don't go down on the first try. Don't know what happened in this case.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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This is the tack that the police need more than this idiot.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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lB--

The approach in that first link is great. Someone should do that in Oakland, Calif., across the bay from here. They've had all sorts of problems with the police for a long time. Recently, they went through 3 interim chiefs in one week!

Here in SF, there are also ongoing problems. Years ago, some cops made a "training video", with a lot of offensive, humorous depictions of various sorts of people. It was leaked. IIRC, they got in some trouble, but not enough. Then they made *another* video! Recently, some cops have sent prejudiced texts around.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Montrell Jackson is my idea of a good father and a real hero. If you need to sanctify someone, why not him?

Good question. Why not cite him as an example of a good father instead of choosing a notoriously "Whites Only" example for the purposes of denigrating Alton Sterling's parenting skills? I don't particularly need to "sanctify" anyone, that was your decision, and apparently "Montrell Jackson" wasn't the example that you felt best illustrated your point.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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See, you never understood what my point was in the first place. It was that even though Alton Sterling wasn't the greatest guy in the world he still deserved to be treated properly by the police and to have his day in court. The other man actually was the police so he would have made no sense in my post at all.

We then veered off into how the press depicted Sterling. Some people thought he had been dragged through the mud from the first. I pointed out that for days he was only shown in family photos and described as "Father of five selling CD's," completely omitting his past felonies and dead beat dad status.

I still think that comparing his earliest image in the press to that of the wholesome family men in fifties sit-coms was not far off. The fact that he is black and they were usually white has nothing to do with the stereotype of the fathers in those shows as all wise, loving, and devoted to their families. One can be those things in any color. I knew men in the fifties who were black and just as devoted to their children, faithful to their wives, law-abiding and hard working as Robert Young in "Father Knows Best." Their skin color didn't keep them from fitting the ideal of the day.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Words fail

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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The accompanying video doesn't seem available to UK residents. But a warning that if the video does autoplay, the article is headed "Video Shows Unarmed Man With Hands Up Shot by Police" and may indeed show an unarmed man with his hands up being shot by the police.

How your workplace and sensibilities view this prospect is something I leave to your discretion.

lB - more care, please.

DT
HH


--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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There are ways to view it from anywhere, aplogies for not considering that most people will not be doing this. But that aside, it does not show the man actually getting shot.
This link should work anywhere.
Both links show what preceded the shooting and an interview with the victim in hospital. The second link (in this post) has more of that interview.

[ 21. July 2016, 19:24: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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For those who can't see it:
quote:
One video from the scene showed 47-year-old Charles Kinsey, who is an employee of an assisted living facility, had lain on his back with his hands in the air while speaking with officers, who had drawn their guns.

"I'm like this right here, and when he shot me, it was so surprising," Kinsey told WSVN-TV in Miami. "It was like a mosquito bite, and when it hit me, I'm like, 'I still got my hands in the air,' and I said, 'No, I just got shot!' And I'm saying, 'Sir, why did you shoot me?' and his words to me, he said, 'I don't know.'"

It goes on to say no footage of the actual shooting has emerged, which I take to mean the video cuts off before the fact.

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
For those who can't see it:
quote:
One video from the scene showed 47-year-old Charles Kinsey, who is an employee of an assisted living facility, had lain on his back with his hands in the air while speaking with officers, who had drawn their guns.

"I'm like this right here, and when he shot me, it was so surprising," Kinsey told WSVN-TV in Miami. "It was like a mosquito bite, and when it hit me, I'm like, 'I still got my hands in the air,' and I said, 'No, I just got shot!' And I'm saying, 'Sir, why did you shoot me?' and his words to me, he said, 'I don't know.'"

It goes on to say no footage of the actual shooting has emerged, which I take to mean the video cuts off before the fact.
Given that the first link shows footage after he was shot*, it may be that it just has not been released.

*No blood in that bit either.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Okay. That's fine. It's my job to check every link, and, given this is Hell, it can be a bit of a crap shoot at times.

DT
HH


--------------------
Get your arse to Mars

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Fortunately, no one was shot in this incident (American Version) and the initial handling of the abuse was inadequate, however the Police chief appears now to be taking proper steps. He is acknowledging the wrong doing and racist remarks and, miracle of miracles, the police union is acknowledging the wrongdoing of the officers. Granted the stakes are lower so the admission is easier, but this is a massively more positive approach.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16599 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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More residents of the Blue Nation are speaking out against this shit. Part of me is " It's about time" and part is " whatever, just keep speaking."

--------------------
"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35051 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged



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