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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fuck (again)
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Yet another act of mass murder.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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I still can't quite understand how someone crosses the borderline into thinking "today would be a good day for murdering as many strangers as I can find."
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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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Yep. Some people have strange hobbies.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Hollande ramping up the rhetoric an 08:15 BBC report, perpetuating the cycle. Condemnation. Which always seems weird.

Seeing the news last night, with people fleeing, a mother with a child in a pram, it felt like watching Cloverfield, War of the Worlds.

I'm horrified at my own suppression of horror. At a sense of distance. Tears and grief hover in the deep ... or shallows. Nice is a long way away. Even Eastbourne would be, but with English identifiers.

This is WW3 and cannot end as long as there is ... difference. The degree of difference, degrees of difference, alienation between Old World Christendom and Islam. The weakness of the strong and the strength of the weak.

08:30 BBC latest video. Dads carrying their children.

My former instinct would be a combination of Israeli disproportionate response and the ultimate commando raid. Declaration of war is being demanded in the States. I would track down the SCIS leader who gave the order, 2 years ago, Abu Mohammed al Adnani and all at his level and above. I would accept their surrender. Gerald Ford's awesome response to the Mayaguez pirating by the Khmer Rouge comes to mind. Under the auspices of the UN security council.

I repudiate that, I MUST in the face of Christ from the cross. But WHY won't it be done? Because the calculus in Christendom is to be 'proportionate'? To defend 'our way of life', epitomized by France - rich, beautiful, young, insouciant - with minimal change?

And in repudiating that, what should insignificant Christianity be doing? Beyond the empty intercessory prayers of Sunday? Beyond bolting the gate after the bolted horse with 'Lord have mercy'?

How can Christendom's Christianity embrace the broken bottle of SCIS? Canterbury and Rome will make hand ringing noises with 'just war' in their back pockets.

Lord have mercy.

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Love wins

Posts: 17007 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I still can't quite understand how someone crosses the borderline into thinking "today would be a good day for murdering as many strangers as I can find."

I think it's usually something along the lines of their believing their god wants them to do it. The 'borderline' here is that into extremism, but the fuel for the trip across is belief.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What should insignificant Christianity be doing? Beyond the empty intercessory prayers of Sunday? Beyond bolting the gate after the bolted horse with 'Lord have mercy'?

As someone charged with leading worship and sensing the increased futility of "standing in prayer" with the victims of X or Y, I feel the same frustration and rage at both terrorists and, yes, God. Yet what more can we do?

[ 15. July 2016, 08:06: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Martin60
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# 368

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God bless you BT.

We should be having this conversation, this confession in public? Not in our invisible holy huddles.

Christendom must respond with courage. That means with complete vulnerability. For that to happen Christianity must lead.

Rome must lead. Canterbury is a Roman province.

Rome MUST lay down the 1500 year lie of just war.

Complete vulnerability means NO MORE MILITARY INTERVENTION IN THE MIDDLE EAST. Which includes the arms trade.

It can't happen, Christianity must therefore revert to what it once DID best. Subvert the empire. Loudly for as long as it has the freedom to.

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Love wins

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Advisory note: anyone posting video of the incident will be hung out to dry.

DT
HH


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Forward the New Republic

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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I still can't quite understand how someone crosses the borderline into thinking "today would be a good day for murdering as many strangers as I can find."

I think it's usually something along the lines of their believing their god wants them to do it. The 'borderline' here is that into extremism, but the fuel for the trip across is belief.
Information so far on who the culprit is. One BBC reporter suggests the possibility that basic petty criminals, pimps, and so on can make good targets for radicalization when they reach a stage of wanting to 'atone' for their crimes in one 'righteous' act of 'holy war'. But so far no-one's tied this guy down to any particular supported jihadist work. So far.

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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I suppose that, as long as there are human beings, there will be those who are susceptible to radicalisation and those who will be radicalisers. I'm guessing that there is no way to cure the disease by treating the symptoms so it's the radicalisers that need to be dealt with, obviously.

I just wonder how the radicalisers can be dealt with. I rather doubt that increasing miltary attacks on Syria and Iraq will help matters, as per Hollande's rhetoric today. Surely that can only worsen the disease, right?

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این نیز بگذرد

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Martin60
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# 368

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Right. I fail to see what religious belief has to do with any of it, except as a difference. There are other far more fundamental, material differences.

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Love wins

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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I've noticed a fairly muted response to the atrocity on social media thus far; hardly any 'Je Suis Nice'-s or the equivalent. Are we possibly beginning to experience 'atrocity fatigue'? I hope not...

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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The main reason for that wave of terrorism seems to me less the western meddling with the area, but much more the general helplessness of the respective regional governments in terms of clearly improving their citzens' everyday lives. I believe it is a lack of funding, or investing into the wrong places (i.e. for the rich and powerful themselves; apparently endemic corruption in many places and levels), instead of fostering education, job markets, etc.

I think we know that there are an overwhelming number of young people, many without any outlook of enbetterment and advancement in life and society at all. Their patience may run out, indeed is running out, sadly. Islam seems a welcome cover for this. (I'm not commenting here on a potential belligerence of it.) Autocratic governments in the region may find Islamism an ideal 'ally' of sorts to 'help' overcome their structural weaknesses.

I do not have any immediate or miracle solution to this either, but believe the purely economic factor of desperation needs to be taken into account, similar to what Martin60 appears to be saying. (See also the refugee crisis.)

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

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posted by Matt Black
quote:
I've noticed a fairly muted response to the atrocity on social media thus far; hardly any 'Je Suis Nice'-s or the equivalent. Are we possibly beginning to experience 'atrocity fatigue'? I hope not...
Or could it be that people - even those who use 'social' media - are finally beginning to realise what a pointless, futile (and in some cases narcissistic) exercise it is?

A far, far better response might be for people to bombard their elected representatives with requests for relations with the people who fund the spread of the nastier strains of Islam which promote violence (Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism, Pakistan and Salafist Jihadism) to be cut. And follow that up with asking why EU funded bodies routinely distribute texts for school-children published in, and donated by, Saudi Arabia, which promote a strident, anti-West view of the world. For those in the UK, they should demand that such texts be outlawed under anti-hate legislation and copies be seized from the many mosques and madrassahs which use them.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I've noticed a fairly muted response to the atrocity on social media thus far; hardly any 'Je Suis Nice'-s or the equivalent. Are we possibly beginning to experience 'atrocity fatigue'? I hope not...

I reckon a lorry crash, even as massive as this, without the big bang of explosives, sort of seems 'too normal'? People get killed in road traffic every day. This might be one possible explanation?

(Again I daren't think of a time when 'they' realise this, and in their folly try to act accordingly... Lord have mercy!)

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I'm a long way from home right now, but as a result got wind of this while many of you were still asleep.

My first thoughts are a riff on "godliness with contentment is great gain".

The perpetrators of such events are people with nothing to lose. The way to mitigate that is to allow people both godliness - space to practice their attachment to God in non-violent ways - and contentment, which means opportunities for acceptance and advancement. More thought is required, but I think christians and churches could do their bit in that.

It seems that godliness without contentment tends to lead to great loss.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I've noticed a fairly muted response to the atrocity on social media thus far; hardly any 'Je Suis Nice'-s or the equivalent. Are we possibly beginning to experience 'atrocity fatigue'? I hope not...

Entirely possibly. Compassion fatigue was always going to happen at some point. After a while it becomes difficult to keep repeating "How shocking" with the same depth of feeling as the first time, basically because it isn't any more, it's part of modern life now and if things are quiet for a while it doesn't feel like peace, it feels more like the calm before the storm.

We've been through "Je Suis France" a couple of times already recently and the Middle East is so full of bombings on a frequent basis that it's becoming pretty much expected and nothing very different to report.

Which is deeply depressing, but that's the way it is in the early 21st century.

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm a long way from home right now, but as a result got wind of this while many of you were still asleep.

My first thoughts are a riff on "godliness with contentment is great gain".

The perpetrators of such events are people with nothing to lose. The way to mitigate that is to allow people both godliness - space to practice their attachment to God in non-violent ways - and contentment, which means opportunities for acceptance and advancement. More thought is required, but I think christians and churches could do their bit in that.

It seems that godliness without contentment tends to lead to great loss.

How do we make the discontented content? And what do we do until they are? We being invisible all-the-way-down Christians?

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Love wins

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I don't know what being invisble all the way down means, but I think that a great way in general of making people who have nothing to lose more socially responsible is to give them something they'll miss if they lose it.

Acceptance and friendship might be a start.

Too many christians and churches trip on that first step.

[ 15. July 2016, 11:50: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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We don't exist Eutychus. We make no difference. Or worse, we make it worse, we justify war. We have to accept and be good neighbours to a culture that formally MUST hate us. Something we reciprocate in our ever shrinking, world rejecting, huddle.

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Love wins

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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I've noticed a fairly muted response to the atrocity on social media thus far; hardly any 'Je Suis Nice'-s or the equivalent. Are we possibly beginning to experience 'atrocity fatigue'? I hope not...

Last time I looked on Twitter "Pray for Nice" was trending. Mind you, that tells us nothing. If Twitter was anything to go by Ed Miliband won the last General Election and Remain won the Referendum by a country mile.

In any event, atrocity fatigue, or whatever you want to call it is the sort of thing one feels after a series of atrocities in a country far away that you see on the telly. Right now, Europeans are eyeing their neighbours nervously and wanting their governments to start getting draconian on the bad guys arses.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I've noticed a fairly muted response to the atrocity on social media thus far; hardly any 'Je Suis Nice'-s or the equivalent. Are we possibly beginning to experience 'atrocity fatigue'? I hope not...

I reckon a lorry crash, even as massive as this, without the big bang of explosives, sort of seems 'too normal'? People get killed in road traffic every day. This might be one possible explanation?
Maybe it's odd of me then, that I feel more horrified by the brutality of this attack than I have before, where explosives in cars kill people in the random proximity, or even when gunmen open clinical fire on people in their workplaces or at a rock concert. Guns and explosives kill, that's what they're for, but the use of an ordinary lorry for such apallingly violent destruction of lives seems all the more obscene, and indeed more frightening somehow. I gather it's a stated operational procedure in ISIS to use trucks to kill crowds.

I'm very distressed about this attack in Nice. It's the thought of those mutilated little bodies being carried by their dads, I think, that touches a nerve. I suppose I must be suffering the symptoms of atrocity fatigue deficiency.

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این نیز بگذرد

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We don't exist Eutychus. We make no difference. Or worse, we make it worse, we justify war. We have to accept and be good neighbours to a culture that formally MUST hate us. Something we reciprocate in our ever shrinking, world rejecting, huddle.

I was thinking that we should give up religion, especially its discourses of purity and sin, which seem to lead easily to scapegoating. But then I thought, that such discourses would go on in any case, for example, in politics, strategic warfare, and so on. I don't know how we give those up, since eros and thanatos appear to be engraved on our hearts. Just another dualism, then.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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Aye, this.

War and violence continues in mankind's history as it always has, despite the fact that we are better educated in that history than our ancestors (and should therefore have learnt from our mistakes). Despite our cultural and sociological evolution, our species remains in the same animal state as when we lived in caves, and we remain driven by primitive and base impulses. We will always have this fear and hatred of Other that can so easily be triggered into violence in the minority amongst us. It’s part of life.

Maybe the reported atrocity fatigue is simply a form of acceptance of this inevitability, or a resignation to it. Maybe, if enough of us become sufficiently atrocity-fatigued and this kind of violence loses its horror for us, terrorism will stop because it will have become powerless.

Well, I say 'us', but I mean you (general).

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این نیز بگذرد

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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Posted by Matt:
quote:

I've noticed a fairly muted response to the atrocity on social media thus far; hardly any 'Je Suis Nice'-s or the equivalent. Are we possibly beginning to experience 'atrocity fatigue'? I hope not...

When I see the equivalent of Je suis Baghdad then I might take social media more seriously as a measure of human compassion.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Aye, this.

War and violence continues in mankind's history as it always has, despite the fact that we are better educated in that history than our ancestors (and should therefore have learnt from our mistakes). Despite our cultural and sociological evolution, our species remains in the same animal state as when we lived in caves, and we remain driven by primitive and base impulses. We will always have this fear and hatred of Other that can so easily be triggered into violence in the minority amongst us. It’s part of life.

Maybe the reported atrocity fatigue is simply a form of acceptance of this inevitability, or a resignation to it. Maybe, if enough of us become sufficiently atrocity-fatigued and this kind of violence loses its horror for us, terrorism will stop because it will have become powerless.

Well, I say 'us', but I mean you (general).

That's an interesting point. I've worked in Zen for 30 years, and there is a lot of work in confronting one's own dualisms and Other-related hatreds and so on, but this is very tough work, and maybe peripheral in the West.

But then Buddhism is also capable of violence, so there is no escape, except to accept that I am violence, I am hatred, I am war, as well as that I am love, I am peace. IS reflect who I am.

But maybe this has no effect at all.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We don't exist Eutychus. We make no difference. Or worse, we make it worse, we justify war. We have to accept and be good neighbours to a culture that formally MUST hate us. Something we reciprocate in our ever shrinking, world rejecting, huddle.

I was thinking that we should give up religion, especially its discourses of purity and sin, which seem to lead easily to scapegoating. But then I thought, that such discourses would go on in any case, for example, in politics, strategic warfare, and so on. I don't know how we give those up, since eros and thanatos appear to be engraved on our hearts. Just another dualism, then.
We need to give up the discourses of imperialism, of 'our will to fight terrorism' reported as I write, said by Hollande. Our discourses of ignoring injustice, inequity, of consumption. Of justifying and defending 'our way of life'. But they won't stop either.

We went to our new local CoE on Sunday. It's all so entirely, ONLY, verbal. And not a man in the place except the vicar and an old friend met my eye.

The connection? EVERYTHING.

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Love wins

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Caissa
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# 16710

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The purpose of terrorism is to cause terror. When it does, the terrorists win.
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Penny S
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# 14768

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If I were in charge of that sort of thing, in the next life, I would make the perpetrators of these murders experience the final moments of each of their victims, over and over again, like groundhog day, until they truly understood what they had done. Since they like to escape the consequences by quitting this life. Not that it would help prevent the next lot.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We don't exist Eutychus. We make no difference.

I call bullshit. No, better, I call that the ground in which the genuine Kingdom of God takes root.

Have you thrown your Bible away?

God chose the things that are not.

Go reread the three instances of multiplication of loaves. Count how many there were to start with, how many they multiplied to, and how much was left over afterwards. The less there was to start with, the more it is said to have multiplied to and the more there was left over.

Stop being so defeatist and go and start living up to your quote in my sig.

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
If I were in charge of that sort of thing, in the next life, I would make the perpetrators of these murders experience the final moments of each of their victims, over and over again, like groundhog day, until they truly understood what they had done.

Shame on you. Sounnds worse than Sharia law to me.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17309 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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The home-grown terrorists develop an identification with the legitimately victimized. It's a pretty powerful thing: the invasions, many civilians killed, the destruction of the infrastructure of several countries, followed up by brutality of various sorts, ongoing drone strikes. Highly symbolic when we're not actually killing hundreds

Then identification with an Arabist version of Islam, which replaces the former gentler version (Thou shalt not say Khuda Hafiz, but say Allah Hafiz in Pakistan anymore, "god keep you safe"), which identifies the disasters with lack of rigid faithfulness and lack of unity in Islam.

It is not hard to convert the identification with victims into anger, and combine it with belief of god being on the side of the downtrodden.

We will never solve any terrorism unless we stop killing people ourselves. Which of course why Tony Blair, George Bush and the others should be punished.

Why France? It didn't even taken part in the Iraq attack and invasion. Because it is highly secular and has a large population of vulnerable young men. It is why also that the person who is yelled at at work comes home and kicks the dog.

We have friends who left Nice, heading north earlier that afternoon. Grateful for their safety. Horrified at the attacks. Horrified at the whole mess from the Mediterranean to the Indian Ocean, which our countries have created.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11181 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I still can't quite understand how someone crosses the borderline into thinking "today would be a good day for murdering as many strangers as I can find."

A line from a post WW2 anti-war film went something like-- How can airman, some of whom couldn't drown a puppy, get into to aircraft night after night and drop high explosives on people asleep in their beds who they've never met?
I suspect it is to do with Legitimisation both internal and external.

Not sure if this is a factor, but are we living in a world so brutal that individuals are forced into carrying out murderous activities because of threats to their families?

I see no solution to human barbarity, merely different levels of management.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Jane R
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no_prophet:
quote:
Why France? It didn't even taken part in the Iraq attack and invasion.
France is also an ex-colonial power, and governed Syria and the Lebanon between the World Wars. And as you say, France has one of the most secularized cultures in Western Europe. The headscarf ban in schools is particularly controversial.

Oh, and ...you expect terrorists to play fair?!

[ 15. July 2016, 15:50: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
no_prophet:
quote:
Why France? It didn't even taken part in the Iraq attack and invasion.
France is also an ex-colonial power, and governed Syria and the Lebanon between the World Wars. And as you say, France has one of the most secularized cultures in Western Europe. The headscarf ban in schools is particularly controversial.

Oh, and ...you expect terrorists to play fair?!

Also North Africa. And Francophone Africa. And, if you are running a terrorist organisation with folk memories of the Crusades as one of your sources of ressentiment then the Franks are going to show up on your list of targets.

In any event, Islamism is a belief system which goes back to the eighteenth century and further back to a succession of puritan reactions to the perceived decadence of the people in charge which is a recurring theme in Islamic history. The idea that the invasion of Iraq is the pivot on which all this turns is terribly parochial.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
A line from a post WW2 anti-war film went something like-- How can airman, some of whom couldn't drown a puppy, get into to aircraft night after night and drop high explosives on people asleep in their beds who they've never met?
I suspect it is to do with Legitimisation both internal and external.

My theory is that that kind of thing resembles a computer game. No potentially worrying close-up contact, no anguished faces to remember, just the motivation to score as much as you can on this run and get back to base if you can (though with this lot, the extra twist that your own death could potentially increase that score quite a bit).

But that's air strikes: remote, distant, the bolt from on high. It's not the same as being in a nightclub with a machine gun and seeing (and hearing) the effect of your actions instantly, inches from you.

I'm thinking an increased sense of Them v Us has to be behind this - They aren't fully human, They just look like people, so it doesn't matter what happens to Them.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
A line from a post WW2 anti-war film went something like-- How can airman, some of whom couldn't drown a puppy, get into to aircraft night after night and drop high explosives on people asleep in their beds who they've never met?
I suspect it is to do with Legitimisation both internal and external.

Not sure if this is a factor, but are we living in a world so brutal that individuals are forced into carrying out murderous activities because of threats to their families?

I see no solution to human barbarity, merely different levels of management.

People also kill others because it is their job. A career. Is it an honourable career? Don't terrorists get honoured too by those who identify them as freedom fighters? Human to pig, pig to human. Tell me the difference please. Other than I live here and thus am on our side. --though I'd be dead if I was there, because we blew up their hospitals and the doctor who would have attended to me now works here.

I travelled to an airport where many flights were going to many countries. They invite those with small children to board, those who need extra time, and also military personnel. Really? Military personnel? If they don't have mobility problems, then no. Though I suppose it identifies them to terrorists.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11181 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
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Eutychus, what would you have happen to the perpetrators who kill themselves in killing their victims? Actual eternal hell? I was talking about the dead, not the living.

I have no idea what can be done with the living - Anders Breivik doesn't seem to be improving at all.

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rolyn
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no_prophet:
quote:
Why France? It didn't even taken part in the Iraq attack and invasion.

They've done Turkey as well. At one point the Turks were bombing isis fighting Kurds.

If it were possible to identify a logical objective beyond the desire for bloodshed then somewhere a political settlement might exist. A way to stop this kind of terror might be evident to someone, but to the most of us this business looks like going on for as long as humanity itself.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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This is all very interesting, but in the rush to assign causes, do we even know this is an Islamist attack yet? It may be, but just because the guy had North African parents...

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Nicolemr
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We'll probably never know for sure since the guy is dead, unless he left a statement or something behind.

But it seems likely.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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rolyn
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I've only heard two radio news bulletins today, there seemed little doubt it was a terror attack.
It could of course be foolish to believe what we hear on the news and maybe no one has claimed responsibility, but it has to be said the Omens aren't great.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
That's an interesting point. I've worked in Zen for 30 years, and there is a lot of work in confronting one's own dualisms and Other-related hatreds and so on, but this is very tough work, and maybe peripheral in the West.

But then Buddhism is also capable of violence, so there is no escape, except to accept that I am violence, I am hatred, I am war, as well as that I am love, I am peace. IS reflect who I am.

But maybe this has no effect at all.

Our evolutionary heritage (from what we know of humanity's development and the comparison with other primates) suggests that we certainly have the capacity for wonderful dreams, kindnesses and altruism and terrible nightmares of murderous rage, enjoyment of suffering, and satisfaction with successful conquest or domination (to requote Carl Sagan and add to him). We are required to understand ourselves enough so as to control our violence and aggression, and to choose to not do that which we are able, if it hurts another, or causes suffering. I think that when this becomes the habit - avoidance of violence - that we are probably considered to be enlightened and/or living the Christian life. Such is the consanguinity* between Jesus-ism and Buddhism I think.


*consanguine: of the same descent, of the same blood. Double meaning intended: this is my blood....

[ 15. July 2016, 20:42: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

Posts: 11181 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
no_prophet:
quote:
Why France? It didn't even taken part in the Iraq attack and invasion.

They've done Turkey as well.
Yes, we were in the airport just 4 hours before the latest attack there. A bit scary when we found out later.

And tonight there has been a military coup in Turkey.

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Martin60
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The balloon's gone up in Turkey.

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Posts: 17007 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Eutychus, what would you have happen to the perpetrators who kill themselves in killing their victims? Actual eternal hell? I was talking about the dead, not the living.

I go along with the assertion that it is up to God to avenge and repay as he sees appropriate - or not.

Imagining suitable acts of revenge - in whichever life - might be part of an individual grieving process, but I personally draw the line at publishing them, which looks like endorsement is being sought. I'm pretty sure such perpetrators' thought processes include a fair bit of acting out their fantasies of revenge.

[ 16. July 2016, 01:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mr cheesy
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Probably a thankless task to try to delve into the mind of a terrorist, but I wonder if France being a target is related to the fact that it has a large population of non-extreme Muslims.

Maybe the terrorists are disgusted at those Muslims with capitulating to the crusader/Christian agenda of liberal democracy and the attacks are designed to show what happens to people who do not embrace IS' brand of "true" Islam.

But generally, this is the sign of things to come. Nothing is safe. You can't protect against people running amok with a motor vehicle.

God save France. God save all of us. I fear he isn't going to.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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Incidentally, I'm typing this in a pub in Newport and the staff are waiting on the table of a large group of French students. They (the students) probably don't realise that this isn't done in this pub.

But the staff are quietly showing solidarity. Fair play to them.

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arse

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The balloon's gone up in Turkey.

Spreading steadily North, bit by bit.

Many do believe France is being targeted because of it's large muslim population. Instability and civil unrest breaking out in France would be is-is' ultimate wet dream.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Eutychus
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Yes, my nightmare is bunches of youths patrolling the northern suburbs of Marseille in Toyota Hiluxes with heavy machine guns mounted in the back and an IS flag aloft.

The fact that this hasn't happened yet is perhaps an indication that despite much resentment, IS doesn't have the traction it dreams of in western democracies, even among the marginalised. The latest atrocity (which Daesh have now claimed responsibility for) might work as intimidation, but I don't think it will win any actual friends among the wider muslim community. It seems a muslim mother was one of the first victims.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

The fact that this hasn't happened yet is perhaps an indication that despite much resentment, IS doesn't have the traction it dreams of in western democracies, even among the marginalised.

They know they don't and that is why they call for such attacks. It costs them nothing whatever the result and is likely to engender reaction which fuels more such incidents.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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