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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fuck (again)
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I heard once of a specialized counseling clinic, here in California, that had survivors of sexual abuse meet with *other people's* abusers. AIUI, it gave everyone a chance to vent, understand each other a bit, and work things out--without the volatility and danger of survivors and *their* abusers dealing directly with each other.

Sort of a restorative justice approach, IMHO.

It is a restorative justice approach, called indirect victim-offender mediation. Here is an example of one such programme run by Prison Fellowship in several countries, including some 40 prisons in the UK.

(Full disclosure: I'm actually somewhat sceptical of Sycomore Tree because of the word "programme". It seems to me to be hard to systematise this sort of thing. But I don't think it should be rejected out of hand).

[ 22. July 2016, 05:10: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Sipech
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# 16870

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Today: Munich
[Mad]
[Waterworks]
[Votive]

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

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Ariel
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# 58

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Yes, here we go again. Friday night, this time it's Munich... though they think it's over now.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Urr, not according to the most recent information I read a minute ago. It is looking bad, let's hope the initial reports are not accurate.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Ariel
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# 58

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Yes, still ongoing with reports of another shooting elsewhere in the city now as well...
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rolyn
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Friday's often are favoured by terrorists, I remember this being the case in the days of IRA activity. Presumably because it then carries maximum news coverage over the weekend.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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rolyn
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# 16840

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Munich nolonger looking like a terrorist incident.

Fuckin Guns .

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Evidently, the Munich shooter was obsessed with mass shootings, and had a lot of info on them at home.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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rolyn
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# 16840

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No coincidence, as it now appears, that the perpetrator made his fantasy a deadly reality on the fifth anniversary of the Norway mass shooting.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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And a Syrian refugee blew himself up in Ansbach, Germany, and injured 12 people. From what the article said, one cause might be that he was turned down for asylum--but they didn't send him back to Syria, because, well, Syria. Also said he'd just been turned away from an open-air music festival, but no reason was given. Would've been far worse if he hadn't been turned away.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Sipech
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# 16870

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Tonight's host to the latest outbreak of inhumanity is a care home for the disabled near Tokyo where someone has stabbed 15 people to death.

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Is this shit actually happening more often, or are we just seeing greater prominence given to the reporting of spree violence across the world as a whole ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Slate has it that it is actually less as of 2014, article by Stephen Pinker and Andrew Mack. Lots of charts and graphs, looks more evidence based than most. Pinker is a well known scientist.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Sipech
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# 16870

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Another day, another incident.

Two hostage takers shot dead in a church in France.
Source: Guardian

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Ouch. That's close to home in more ways than one.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Penny S
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I wondered how close. Very worrying.
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Ariel
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# 58

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We are seeing more terrorist incidents in places we didn't formerly see them. These overlap with mentally ill/disturbed types e.g. the Japanese incident which has nothing to do with terrorism.

I see Trump has now put France and Germany on his list on account of there having been too many terrorist incidents recently.

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Chesterbelloc

Tremendous trifler
# 3128

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Fr Jacques Hamel, priez pour nous et priez pour France.

[Pray for us and pray for France]

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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Doone
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[Votive]
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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Is this shit actually happening more often, or are we just seeing greater prominence given to the reporting of spree violence across the world as a whole ?

Smart phones and social media.

I'm getting sick of the anti Islamic hysteria on social media.

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Fearfully and wonderfully mad

ن
blog

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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With all respect: I'm getting sick of the fucking Islamist hysteria on social media, and their driving (young) people to absolutely senseless, utterly useless destruction of others and selves!

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Piglet
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I think I sort of see what Balaam means - while there can be no justification of what happened to Fr. Hamel, it seems wrong to tar all Muslims with the same brush. I should imagine that most of them are as horrified as we are, and are wondering what evil perversion of their faith leads people to do such things.

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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That is why I have taken up the Council of Europe's vocabulary and talk henceforth in terms of violent extremism.

The Council underlines the importance of being able to
quote:
distinguish between religious practices and the adoption of violent extremist behaviour
This 1) heads off religious persecution under the guise of combating terrorism and 2) usefully covers non-religious forms of violent extremism, such as we have just witnessed in Munich.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Serious question: How do you stop a violent person who not only is willing to die, but chooses it? Like suicide bombers--except for ones that are forced or tricked.

If someone's planning a violent act and they're past listening to "it's wrong!", you can tell them that they might be injured, imprisoned for life, killed, etc. But if they want to go out in a blaze of glory, how do you stop them? And if they haven't done anything *yet*, how do you figure out whether they're venting, fascinated, or truly dangerous?

And what about those whose main problem is severe mental illness? AIUI, the Nice driver (hope I've got the right one) had pre-existing mental illness, and seems more to have stuck a jihadist label on himself towards the end, rather than really holding radical beliefs. Or the Munich bomber, who was obsessed with mass killings, but evidently wasn't religious.

Is there anything, even small things, that might help?

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Eutychus
From the edge
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You basically can't.

In the short term, French tactics appear to have shifted from aiming to prevent attacks to attempting to minimise the consequences when they happen. We have repeatedly been told to expect more of them.

In the medium term, better intelligence might help. It's certainly tempting to conclude that one of the reasons for more attacks in France than in the UK recently, say, is more poorly coordinated intelligence.

In the longer term, there are a number of social challenges.

One is to frame what counts as "legitimate" expressions of violence. There's no doubt in my mind that 24-hour media coverage of new kinds of atrocity helps to enshrine them as legitimate courses of action for the desperate of all persuasions.

Another is to think about how to give people with nothing to lose something worth losing. In France I believe that would require accepting the reality of domestic Islam and immigration as part of the national scene. That would reduce the scope for the mindset of marginalisation and zero prospects that is ripe soil for violent extremism. We are well behind the UK in this respect.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
....... 2) usefully covers non-religious forms of violent extremism, such as we have just witnessed in Munich.

And maybe also covering that co-pilot who deliberately crashed a passenger plane into a mountain?

Always tempting to conclude the whole world is going mad and the dark corners of the Internet are wholly to blame. When was that Golden Age again?

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Sometimes, I think that both people who are bound and determined to die by violence (including their own) and also those who are bound and determined to kill people should be put in a pit and allowed to go at it. They'd be allowed to leave--but if they did, they couldn't go back. They'd get what they wanted, and the rest of us could get some peace.

No media or Web coverage, because some people would get obsessed.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I don't want to start this tangent all over again, but until we can get past the idea of physical violence constituting just desserts, even in our fantasies, we're not going to get any further on this.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Eutychus--

There's truth to what you say. But, while there's a little revenge in what I suggested (and I don't imagine watching them fight), it's mostly pragmatic frustration. If we can't get people to stop this madness, put them somewhere where they can do what they want, and at least not hurt anyone else (directly). I've got a pragmatic streak.

FWIW, YMMV.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Eutychus
From the edge
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Sometimes one has to be pragmatic. I suppose that shooting to "neutralise" a beserk terrorist on the assumption that they'll do more damage if allowed to live is pragmatic. But relying on pragmatism alone will not address the underlying causes.

FWIW, I think the French Catholic church's response to this has been very good so far. They have reasserted that their only weapons are prayer and the fundamental brotherhood of man, not called for any additional protection, and called Catholics to a day of prayer and fasting on Friday. To my mind, that's the kind of assymetric response this needs. I hope they invite us protestants to join in.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Is an invitation necessary?
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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
us protestants

There it is, in beautiful 3D panoramic technicolour irony...

... the root of all evil.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
... the root of all evil.

What, diversity? That's news to me.

[ 27. July 2016, 09:21: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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No, division. I suppose it's a fairly subtle distinction since the two are so intimately related (a little bit like 'really clever' and 'nearly clever').

[ 27. July 2016, 09:36: Message edited by: Yorick ]

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این نیز بگذرد

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Are you channelling John Lennon?

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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Imagine that!

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این نیز بگذرد

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Is an invitation necessary?

Sorry, missed this due to Yorick's interjection.

I'm about as informal as they come, but the fact is that formal displays of unity do call for a bit of protocol.

The diocese may be considering inviting representatives of other faith traditions to a particular event (if one is organised locally), and I'm in a position where I can reasonably expect to receive such an invitation.

If no such invitation is forthcoming, I think it would be a missed opportunity for a formal expression of solidarity.

Of course nothing's to stop individuals joining whatever's happening, but representatives of other faith traditions can hardly formally invite themselves.

Another factor is that lots of people, including senior clerics, are on holiday here; and of course the Catholics' opinion on whether inviting others is desirable may differ anyway.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Yes, I see - but I was sort of thinking of non-public praying and fasting. God would know.
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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Yorick's interjection.

Actually I was trying to make a serious point. This thread is about horrific incidents which would seem to share one basic underlying cause, and which I reckon underlies most violence between human beings. People find it easier to act on violent impulses towards those they see as Other. Any sort of view that identifies differences between people, especially groups, can facilitate this sort of violence.

Religions very frequently claim exclusive and often opposing Truths and this is dangerously catalytic. Inter-group violence only happens because people (whether we be ‘us protestants’ or ‘we of Aryan blood’ or whatever) are hardwired to seeing category differences between each other rather than seeing us all as the same nasty little children of God.

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این نیز بگذرد

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quetzalcoatl
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But religion is not the only source of otherization and mass killing, is it? For example, the invasion of Iraq was not really started on religious grounds, but political, strategic, economic, or whatever. Or the British Empire employed religious justification but had other motives as well.

Thus, scape-goating has taken on religious raiments at times, but is not intrinsically religious.

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no path

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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[x-post with quetzalcoatl]

Fair enough. But I don't think the solution is to pretend that differences don't exist.

Even if we share a common humanity, the latter doesn't consist of some boiled-down lesser-common-denominator cookie-cutter generic humanity, but humanity in all its diversity; something that I think the ethos of Imagine completely and utterly fails to acknowledge (for a start, it lays a large share of the blame fo the world's ills at the feet of religion and declares rabid intolerance of religious belief. It seems to assume the solution is for everyone to be stoned all the time).

I find that acknowledging one's own distinctiveness is the first step towards meaningful unity. If I'm secure in who I am and my own idiosyncracies, it's a whole lot easier to embrace others with their own differences, and a lot more meaningful when I do.

[ 27. July 2016, 13:50: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:

Religions very frequently claim exclusive and often opposing Truths and this is dangerously catalytic. Inter-group violence only happens because people (whether we be ‘us protestants’ or ‘we of Aryan blood’ or whatever) are hardwired to seeing category differences between each other rather than seeing us all as the same nasty little children of God.

IOW, the problem is not so much religion as diversity.

We could all be atheists, or all Methodists, or all Hare Krishna devotees, or whatever, but it doesn't really matter which, so long as we all believe exactly the same thing.

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Yorick

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Almost. It doesn’t matter which, so long as we all believe everybody has the equal right not to be killed. And although quetzy is right, that religion is not the only means by which people come to think they know a Higher Truth, it sure does seem to be very good at that.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Any sort of view that identifies differences between people, especially groups, can facilitate this sort of violence.

Says the atheist harping on how religious views - i.e. views different from his own - are a problem.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Yorick

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# 12169

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Harping on? Oh, poor dear Dafyd, is that what you think I was doing? And did you really think I was saying that religious views are the problem? And that they’re a problem specifically because they’re different views from mine?

Have you banged your head?

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این نیز بگذرد

Posts: 7521 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
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# 8520

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That is obviously what you were doing. You could add the adjective disingenuous now.

Try banging your head.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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Yorick

I don't feel that atheists are necessarily less interested in 'truth' than anyone else. But perhaps what they have going for them is that if they have aggressive impulses they can't cloak their violent rampages or outbursts in religious language. They obviously have to pick some other explanation.

I have to say, I can't really understand Islamicist violence on a purely religious level. It's not as if these killings are designed to save anyone's soul. They don't occur at the behest of any globally powerful religious leader. They're not apparently designed to protect young Muslims from Western corruption (in which case the perpetrators and their families could simply emigrate to a Muslim country). They don't seem to be organised as part of a programme of information to 'convert' the West.

Sometimes it's said that Islamic terrorists are just doing what it takes to get into paradise, which is described for Western consumption as some kind of celestial brothel, but is this really their priority? The idea that suicide (let alone murder!!) is a way to heaven sounds curious to Christian ears anyway.

Commentators sometimes claim that Islam's problem is in not distinguishing too much between religion and politics. I don't know how true this is, but IMO the religious violence is unlikely to heal until the socio-political divisions are addressed.

[ 27. July 2016, 18:00: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Callan
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# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Almost. It doesn’t matter which, so long as we all believe everybody has the equal right not to be killed. And although quetzy is right, that religion is not the only means by which people come to think they know a Higher Truth, it sure does seem to be very good at that.

Surely, some religions are better at this than others? I am struggling, for example, to think of an instance where a Jain or a Methodist, to take two random examples, has burst into a Catholic Mass and slit the throat of the Priest. Might it not be the case that some religions or some manifestations of irreligion are better at tolerance and respect for difference than others?

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Yorick

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# 12169

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Nominally at least, Christians are casually estimated to have killed fifty times more people than Muslims in the twentieth century (mainly as a result of their superior industro-technological capability rather than their greater natural murderousness).

And as for the argument that religion in and of itself isn't capable of doing anything, but that it's only sick people who do the killing, I see this as rather like the argument that guns do not kill.

All religions are inextricably linked with violence. I refer you to your Old Testament for plentiful gory examples, glib though this may seem.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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To that I would respond, on a human level, that what's important is 1) a religion's capacity to evolve towards non-violent expression 2) its capacity to embrace tolerance and diversity. And that 1) and 2) apply to any other belief system too, including atheistic ones.

Since you pounced on my use of the word "protestant", I'd argue that protestantism contains within it the necessary ingredients for both ongoing reinterpretation and doubt (and thus the benefit thereof).

Like I say, I can only see Imagine applying in a world where everyone is perpetually stoned, and even then you have the problem of how they go about paying for their next fix.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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