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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fuck (again)
Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:
And as for the argument that religion in and of itself isn't capable of doing anything, but that it's only sick people who do the killing, I see this as rather like the argument that guns do not kill.
That's an interesting analogy. After Hungerford and Dunblane the British government passed strict laws restricting the access of the public to firearms. (Pauses to peer meaningfully at the US). If your analogy holds then we can do something similar in this context?

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Yorick

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eutychus:
...on a human level, that what's important is 1) a religion's capacity to evolve towards non-violent expression...

Given that it's now a couple of thousand years since Big J came along to show us the way, we Christians seem to have a fearfully low capacity for such evolution.

Since you pounced on my use of the word "protestant"

Myeah, I didn't think you understood my point. I was trying to pounce on your use of the word "us" rather than "protestants" but since you seem so keen to misunderstand me I think I should probably just put the kettle on and make a more fruitful cup of tea.

I can only see Imagine applying in a world where everyone is perpetually stoned

And I thought I was pessimistic about human nature, but, yes, you're probably right.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:
And as for the argument that religion in and of itself isn't capable of doing anything, but that it's only sick people who do the killing, I see this as rather like the argument that guns do not kill.
That's an interesting analogy. After Hungerford and Dunblane the British government passed strict laws restricting the access of the public to firearms. (Pauses to peer meaningfully at the US). If your analogy holds then we can do something similar in this context?
I suppose you are asking me to put forward my answer to an impossible question, which is fair enough. I don't think there is a cure for the disease of religion being a growth medium for hatred and violence, but I live in hope that our woeful species might continue on its trajectory of secularisation to the stage where organised religion ultimately dies of irrelevance, peacefully and in its sleep.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Given that it's now a couple of thousand years since Big J came along to show us the way, we Christians seem to have a fearfully low capacity for such evolution.

A bit harsh, I think. Granted, there's been plenty of violence in the name of Christ since, but there is a worked-out, consistent theology of non-violence, too, starting with his own example.

quote:
I was trying to pounce on your use of the word "us" rather than "protestants"
As has been pointed out, "us" and "them" doesn't necessarily imply superiority or division, but it does recognise diversity. Failing to acknowledge that diversity exists seems to me to be a recipe for far more violence than recognising that it does.

[untangled too many negatives; clearly also in need of tea]

[ 28. July 2016, 11:11: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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mdijon
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Is "We Christians" a better, less divisive way of speaking than "Us Christians"?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Eutychus
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translator hat on/

It could sound more superior.

Besides, you couldn't have replaced "us" with "we" in my original sentence as written.

I could rewrite the original sentence to use "we" instead of "us" but I'm not sure of the end result and in any case, the rest of the post applauds the Catholics' response, so Yorick's jibe was achieved by taking "us protestants" way out of context.

/translator hat off.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Yorick:

quote:
And as for the argument that religion in and of itself isn't capable of doing anything, but that it's only sick people who do the killing, I see this as rather like the argument that guns do not kill.
That's an interesting analogy. After Hungerford and Dunblane the British government passed strict laws restricting the access of the public to firearms. (Pauses to peer meaningfully at the US). If your analogy holds then we can do something similar in this context?
I suppose you are asking me to put forward my answer to an impossible question, which is fair enough. I don't think there is a cure for the disease of religion being a growth medium for hatred and violence, but I live in hope that our woeful species might continue on its trajectory of secularisation to the stage where organised religion ultimately dies of irrelevance, peacefully and in its sleep.
Candidly, that's not good enough.

Seriously, the problem is currently, that Muslim extremists are attempting to forment some kind of religious war in Western countries and are doing this by the means of killing people in an attempt to increase hostility between Muslims and everybody else. This isn't a philosophical problem, it is a policy issue. I presume that you agree with me that a religious war, or even major conflict, between Muslims and everybody else, roughly analogous to the Troubles in Northern Ireland would be a bad thing? If so, we need to work out how to stop it.

Now it strikes me that a fairly major question, at this juncture, is how to neutralise and isolate the extremists. A lot of this will be a matter of police work and counter terrorism. But if all we can do is to shoot the bad guys after the event we will not be able to stop them recruiting. So part of the problem is going to be about how we handle community relations and about differences in belief and praxis among people of different faiths and none.

Now, I think that part of the problem is how we stop the enemy from dividing us whilst persuading the Muslim community that the extremists, and not the rest of us, are their real enemy. So we face a balancing act between, on the one hand encouraging Muslims to re-evaluate their theology and, on the other hand, being very clear that we have no problem with the overwhelming majority of decent Muslims who do not want a religious war.

So, at this point a lazy equation of "Muslims' with "religious violence" does us no good. If the Prime Minister stands up and starts making speeches to this effect, the net effect will be to drive Muslims into the hands of the enemy. Which is why, after atrocities of this nature, politicians always feel obliged to say something about Islam being a religion of peace. I don't think that entirely cuts it. ISIS has a basis in Muslim theology, that Muslims (no-one else can do it) need to address, just as, say the Westboro Baptist Church has a basis in homophobia that Christians (no-one else can do it) needs to address, but I give them credit for grasping the salient point that treating all Muslims as the bad guys is an incredibly bad idea.

Now your position appears to be that you want to not only equate "Muslims" with religious violence, but "All Religious People" with religious violence. Indeed, you began by calling out Eutychus for describing his tradition as "us Protestants" in the context of his offering solidarity to the Catholic Church, as if he was seriously suggesting that a re-run of the French Wars of Religion might be a good idea, here. To use a technical phrase, at this point, this is really Cockwombleism of the highest order. The point, Eutychus was making, was that our humanity and opposition to acts of terror is, really, more significant than anything that divides us. This is solid good sense. It is a point that needs to be woven into samplers and hung on walls. It is a point that needs to be carved into obelisks and placed at strategic places in our cities. It is a point that needs to be engraved on our hearts. Now if you are going to go round insinuating that there is no significant difference between a French Reformed Christian self-identifying as protestant and a couple of maniacs popping into a church during Mass and slitting the throat of a Priest who was quietly going about his lawful business, then I call smug disingenuous cuntery.

I mean, really, how the fuck does this, in any sort of way, get us anywhere, precisely? The whole fucking point of this exercise is to isolate the terrorists. You want to conflate them with not only the Muslims but anybody who believes in a higher power and a life of the world to come. What exactly does that contribute except an opportunity for you to engage in self-congratulation on an epic scale.

I mean, the whole USP, of your particular sort of atheism is that it is supposed to be based on evidence and strict rationality and here you are advancing a thesis so banal and so contrary to the observable facts that it makes the Legend of the Holy House of Loretto look like Einstein's Theory Of Fucking Relativity. I get that you think that we would be better off as atheists. Personally, I think we would all be better off as Anglicans but you pays your money and you takes your choice. But if you think that you and your tribe have some kind of monopoly on decency and hostility to violence then fuck you and fuck the fucking horse you rode in on.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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quetzalcoatl
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Yorick, you seem to be arguing that if religion died out, violence would diminish. That seems highly speculative to me, and there is little evidence for it. In fact, the UK is more secular than it used to be, yet we embarked on a very violent war in Iraq, not for religious reasons. We also got involved in Libya and Syria.

As to religious differences, well, there are plenty of secular differences. As Freud said, the narcissism of small differences can be a killer.

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no path

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Nominally at least, Christians are casually estimated to have killed fifty times more people than Muslims in the twentieth century (mainly as a result of their superior industro-technological capability rather than their greater natural murderousness).

Would you give some statistics on this. I would like to know who the 'Christians' are who have done this mass slaughter.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Ariel
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Religion isn't a disease. Some of its adherents would be just as unpleasant if they didn't have any religion. They'd just find a different pretext.

I expect Yorick will completely dismiss that point as it doesn't fit into his opinion that all religion is wrong, but I thought I'd make it anyway.

[ 28. July 2016, 11:40: Message edited by: Ariel ]

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Nominally at least, Christians are casually estimated to have killed fifty times more people than Muslims in the twentieth century (mainly as a result of their superior industro-technological capability rather than their greater natural murderousness).

Would you give some statistics on this. I would like to know who the 'Christians' are who have done this mass slaughter.

Moo

I hope Yorick is not saying that the two world wars were waged by 'Christians', as I have seen this kind of sleight-of-hand used at times. I suppose the word 'nominal' is a get-out.

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no path

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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Nominally at least, Christians are casually estimated to have killed fifty times more people than Muslims in the twentieth century (mainly as a result of their superior industro-technological capability rather than their greater natural murderousness).

Would you give some statistics on this. I would like to know who the 'Christians' are who have done this mass slaughter.

Moo

Hi Moo.

Please google Juan Cole, as I,ve forgotten how to post a link on this ubb. If you can't find his article let me know and I'll try to link it.


I'm not convinced by the argument I think is proposed by quetzy and Ariel that the violence committed in God's name would happen anyway if there were no religion. OBVIOUSLY there would still be violence, but would there be so much? I absolutely doubt that.

I'll try to respond more fully in time to the excellent points raised above if you'll forgive my dipping in and out as I get my chances.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Yorick

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http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/terrorism-other-religions.html

for Moo

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این نیز بگذرد

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I'm not convinced by the argument I think is proposed by quetzy and Ariel that the violence committed in God's name would happen anyway if there were no religion. OBVIOUSLY there would still be violence, but would there be so much? I absolutely doubt that.

I refer you to the various incidents that took place during and after the Russian revolution and during the years of Communism in various countries. Purges and crackdowns and disappearances for ideological reasons are not unknown.
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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
And that they’re a problem specifically because they’re different views from mine?

I'd guess that nobody who acts on violent impulses against the Other thinks they're doing so specifically because they're different.
Atheist who call religion a disease always think that they've got reasons; and that makes them different from the people calling Judaism a disease or communism a disease or whatever.

They're not different. An atheist who calls religion a disease is just as much a part of the great goosestep of history as the people he's talking about.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Yorick

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Okay, Dafyd, fuck right off. If you persist in misrepresenting what I say, I'm taking you off my Yuletide Card list.

I was talking about a cure for the disease of religion being a culture medium for violence. I wasn't saying religion is a disease. Can you get that huge black knobbled dildo stick out of your ass for just a second and represent what I am saying here honestly? Thanks, dear.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Yorick

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quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I'm not convinced by the argument I think is proposed by quetzy and Ariel that the violence committed in God's name would happen anyway if there were no religion. OBVIOUSLY there would still be violence, but would there be so much? I absolutely doubt that.

I refer you to the various incidents that took place during and after the Russian revolution and during the years of Communism in various countries. Purges and crackdowns and disappearances for ideological reasons are not unknown.
This argument is very frustrating to me, and sounds very much like a rather dishonest sidestep. Yes, of course I understand that violence and even genocide is committed outwith religion. I really do understand that, I promise! But to offer it as a refutation of the argument that violence is perpetrated in the name of gods is like saying cancer isn't the only problem because people can also die of banging their head too hard against walls.

[ 28. July 2016, 12:11: Message edited by: Yorick ]

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این نیز بگذرد

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/terrorism-other-religions.html

for Moo

So not only are we chalking up all the fatalities of the Two World Wars to Christianity (which would doubtless come as a surprise to Hitler. Tojo, and Stalin) but also the state church of Sweden is cited as an example of the intertwining of nationalism and religion. Sweden's military policy since the fall of Bonaparte has largely consisted of providing troops to UN Peacekeeping Missions. I can only assume that he's working on a follow up article denouncing the irredentist posture of Malta, Andorra, San Marino and, Lichtenstein.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Yorick

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Oh, and your rant, above, Callan. [Overused]

I avow to answer that as soon as.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I was talking about a cure for the disease of religion being a culture medium for violence. I wasn't saying religion is a disease.

That's a fine hair to split. Indeed, so fine it's almost as if there isn't a hair there at all.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/terrorism-other-religions.html

for Moo

But he is using weasel terms here, isn't he? For example, he talks about 'people of Christian heritage', which I suppose means Europeans and Americans, even if they are not themselves Christian. That's like saying that Mao killed millions of people because he was an atheist. This is sleight of hand.

I don't see how one can go from a correlation between religion and violence (or whatever), to a causation. There are so many variables involved.

For example, suppose that religious areas of the US use more porn, and more social security benefits. How would establish a relation of causation here, as opposed to correlation, in other words, that it's being religious that causes increased porn use?

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no path

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
This argument is very frustrating to me, and sounds very much like a rather dishonest sidestep. Yes, of course I understand that violence and even genocide is committed outwith religion. I really do understand that, I promise! But to offer it as a refutation of the argument that violence is perpetrated in the name of gods is like saying cancer isn't the only problem because people can also die of banging their head too hard against walls.

You know that you can poison yourself and die if you drink too much water?

There's a massive difference between a little wine for your stomach's sake and being a raving violent confabulating alcoholic.

If is also possible to kill yourself by taking too much acetaminophen/paracetamol.

Misuse it is called, Yorick. We have the capacity to overuse and misuse everything.

People (I think most of us, if not all) have the very real, raw and genuine capacity for extreme muderous violence and can even learn to enjoy it. This is the very human characteristic that religion aims itself at. To lessen it, to redirect atavistic impulses in the direction of kindness. But I suppose that trying to persuade you at all is like banging your heads on the wall.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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quetzalcoatl
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Famous example of the correlation/causation confusion: some studies of HRT indicated that women taking it were less liable to heart disease. However, this ignored other variables, e.g. higher economic group, better diet, more exercise, and so on, which themselves may produce less heart disease.

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no path

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Oh, and your rant, above, Callan. [Overused]

I avow to answer that as soon as.

I'm pretty sure you will reply to it, but doubt you will answer it all.

Part of the problem, and part of your problem too, is that Christianity, if not other faiths, is based on the premise that human nature is not good. Human nature and by extension man is naturally sinful. Until one accepts that it is impossible to be a Christian. Even then we are inclined to fall short of the example set by Christ.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
How would establish a relation of causation here, as opposed to correlation, in other words, that it's being religious that causes increased porn use?

That one's easy. The more religious an area is, the more likely it is to have a culture that represses sexuality in any context other than man-woman marriage. Denied the usual outlets for sexual exploration and experimentation that people elsewhere have, people from said areas are more likely to resort to furtive online porn sessions in order to get their jollies.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Ariel
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
This argument is very frustrating to me, and sounds very much like a rather dishonest sidestep.

Nobody forced you to return to the boards, and it was your choice to decide to turn a Hell thread deploring terrorist outrages into a tangential and more Purgatorial discussion about religion, and rehashing your old favourite points of view yet again. If you don't like the quality of the answers you get, tough. I'm not wasting time, energy or brainpower on your postings. I thought at first you might have something new or original to say, but I see now it's just the same tired old bilge that's available in countless places over the internet and that we've all seen here before.
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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I hope Yorick is not saying that the two world wars were waged by 'Christians', as I have seen this kind of sleight-of-hand used at times. I suppose the word 'nominal' is a get-out.

It's hard to say that WW1 wasn't heavily bound up with Christendom.
"Thank God for matching us with His hour" was the cry that went up from the wildly enthusiastic masses. Psychoanalysis would probably have diagnosed that war fever as coming pretty close to the brain chemicals pumping in today's radicalised jihadist.

Clearly it would be a nonsense to say Christain practice caused WW1, but with Communion wine being supped both sides of no-man's-land it certainly played a part in aiding and abetting it's progress, (or lack of progress as it turned out).

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
How would establish a relation of causation here, as opposed to correlation, in other words, that it's being religious that causes increased porn use?

That one's easy. The more religious an area is, the more likely it is to have a culture that represses sexuality in any context other than man-woman marriage. Denied the usual outlets for sexual exploration and experimentation that people elsewhere have, people from said areas are more likely to resort to furtive online porn sessions in order to get their jollies.
If there are more churches, there are more bars and pubs.
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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
This argument is very frustrating to me, and sounds very much like a rather dishonest sidestep. Yes, of course I understand that violence and even genocide is committed outwith religion. I really do understand that, I promise! But to offer it as a refutation of the argument that violence is perpetrated in the name of gods is like saying cancer isn't the only problem because people can also die of banging their head too hard against walls.

I wouldn't want to misrepresent your argument, so may I check I've got it right.
Your argument is:
quote:
(Some) violence is perpetrated in the name of gods
I add the word 'some' to make it clear you've explicitly denied meaning all violence.
That's all you're arguing. You are not arguing for this position:
quote:
OBVIOUSLY there would still be violence (if there were no religion), but would there be so much? I absolutely doubt that.
You are not arguing there would not be so much violence if there no religion. That's a far stronger claim than your argument, and if that were your claim then looking to see whether there was less violence where there was no religion would be relevant. But that would be a far stronger claim than your actual argument, which is merely:
quote:
(Some) violence is perpetrated in the name of gods
.

Just wanting to make sure I don't misrepresent you.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It's hard to say that WW1 wasn't heavily bound up with Christendom.

Would you care to define Christendom? AIUI the majority of Europeans were not practicing Christians, although they may have paid it lip-service. The Japanese were certainly not Christians.

quote:
"Thank God for matching us with His hour" was the cry that went up from the wildly enthusiastic masses.
I am very interested in the history of WW2, and I have read a great deal about it. Until now, I have never heard this phrase. Where did you hear of it?

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Even if we share a common humanity, the latter doesn't consist of some boiled-down lesser-common-denominator cookie-cutter generic humanity, but humanity in all its diversity; something that I think the ethos of Imagine completely and utterly fails to acknowledge (for a start, it lays a large share of the blame for the world's ills at the feet of religion and declares rabid intolerance of religious belief. It seems to assume the solution is for everyone to be stoned all the time).

AIUI, "Imagine" was written in response to the Irish troubles--which were, at least partly, framed as religious battles. They could drive a pope to take up with Richard Dawkins, IMHO.

As to getting stoned: well, it was the '60s. Personally, I'd rather have very dark chocolate!

And I do have days when "Imagine" is just the song I need to hear.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17673 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
"Thank God for matching us with His hour" was the cry that went up from the wildly enthusiastic masses.

I am very interested in the history of WW2, and I have read a great deal about it. Until now, I have never heard this phrase. Where did you hear of it?
It's WW1, not WW2. It's from a 1914 poem by Rupert Brooke (1887–1915) entitled ”Peace":
quote:
NOW, God be thanked Who has matched us with His hour,
And caught our youth, and wakened us from sleeping,
With hand made sure, clear eye, and sharpened power,
To turn, as swimmers into cleanness leaping,
Glad from a world grown old and cold and weary,
Leave the sick hearts that honour could not move,
And half-men, and their dirty songs and dreary,
And all the little emptiness of love!

Oh! we, who have known shame, we have found release there,
Where there’s no ill, no grief, but sleep has mending,
Naught broken save this body, lost but breath;
Nothing to shake the laughing heart’s long peace there
But only agony, and that has ending;
And the worst friend and enemy is but Death.

Whether the phrase should be taken at face value, or whether it "was the cry that went up from the wildly enthusiastic masses" I'll leave for others.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
It's from a 1914 poem by Rupert Brooke (1887–1915) entitled ”Peace":

Brooke is not a good example, as he was an atheist.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10313 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
It's from a 1914 poem by Rupert Brooke (1887–1915) entitled ”Peace":

Brooke is not a good example, as he was an atheist.
Exactly why I wanted to leave discussion about the poem to others—I know very little about Brooke.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Eutychus
From the edge
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Well, if he meant it as ironic, it reads chillingly like something that Daesh could take on board as is, without the irony.

Our church premises will be hosting a time of prayer open to all this lunchtime, and the regional representative of the national Muslim council has just e-mailed me responding favourably to my personal invitation to attend.

Yorick may be interested to read BBC Paris correspondent Hugh Schofield's latest article. His pieces usually make my blood boil with their French-bashing, but I think this one nails it for once:
quote:
so far one is bound to observe that the country has reacted to this horrific succession of provocations with good sense and an eye on the higher values.

Most French people will argue that these values - tolerance, respect between peoples, forgiveness, eschewal of violence - are part of the country's enlightened secular tradition.

But of course before that they were something else. They were Christian.



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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:

quote:
"Thank God for matching us with His hour" was the cry that went up from the wildly enthusiastic masses.
I am very interested in the history of WW2, and I have read a great deal about it. Until now, I have never heard this phrase. Where did you hear of it?
I was referring only to the First World War.
To my knowledge all the main participants were steeped in institutionalised Christianity apart from maybe Turkey. Excluding also some Commonwealth Countries which were press ganged to join in.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Well, if he meant it as ironic, it reads chillingly like something that Daesh could take on board as is, without the irony.

He didn't mean it as ironic. Brooke was all in favour of military glory and heroic death. He's using the word 'God' because there isn't a readily available atheist way to express a feeling of gratitude towards things in general, and he's not a conscientious enough poet to make one up for himself.

It was widely shared. I've just been reading about the Italian proto-fascist poet D'Annunzio, who makes Brooke look like Wilfred Owen.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Yes, of course I understand that violence and even genocide is committed outwith religion. I really do understand that, I promise! But to offer it as a refutation of the argument that violence is perpetrated in the name of gods is like saying cancer isn't the only problem because people can also die of banging their head too hard against walls.

And many here would promise you that we really do understand that violence is perpetrated in the name of religion. What is being questioned is how much is directly attributable.

Cancer is an interesting example. How many people die of prostate cancer rather as opposed to incidentally having prostate cancer? It isn't a straightforward thing to answer, even with very good individual-level medical data to look at.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
He didn't mean it as ironic.

In that case, those who insist on dismissing Daesh as nothing more than a bunch of raving loonies must also accept that our forefathers in the trenches were nothing more than a bunch of equally raving loonies.

Maybe we should consider their motivations as level-headedly as we do those of our forebears.

[more excess of negatives addressed]

[ 29. July 2016, 08:46: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16993 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

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[continuing WW1 poets tangent]Brooke was full of ardour for the battle and the heroism of dying for his King and country, theoretically. Unlike Gurney, Thomas, Owen and Sassoon, he didn't serve in the trenches. After his jingoistic poetry was published, (The Soldier was read from the pulpit of St Paul's Cathedral) he joined the Navy. He died (from an infection) on his way to conflict.

Until the 50th anniversary of WW1, Brooke and similar works were seen as the voice of WW1. Those who are now accepted as the First World War poets changed with that anniversary, which coincided with Vietnam. Owen only had one or two verses published in his lifetime and attempts to publish his work in the 1930s failed.

Something similar happened to the art. The IWM sold off and gave away many of their commissioned WW1 works post war (the Nashes and Nevisons) because that bleakness wasn't what people wanted to see post-WW1. [/tangent]

I have found Brooke incredibly difficult to teach to current teenagers who find those sentiments very alien. They understand Owen's cynicism. How we think about war has changed over time.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Yes, of course I understand that violence and even genocide is committed outwith religion. I really do understand that, I promise! But to offer it as a refutation of the argument that violence is perpetrated in the name of gods is like saying cancer isn't the only problem because people can also die of banging their head too hard against walls.

And many here would promise you that we really do understand that violence is perpetrated in the name of religion. What is being questioned is how much is directly attributable.

Cancer is an interesting example. How many people die of prostate cancer rather as opposed to incidentally having prostate cancer? It isn't a straightforward thing to answer, even with very good individual-level medical data to look at.

Yes, it seems very difficult to me to demonstrate that religion leads to violence. Of course, one can assert this, but that doesn't demonstrate a link. One can point to various religious acts of violence, e.g. by IS, but still that does not show that religion leads to violence, except in so far that being human seems to lead to violence quite often. It's like saying that being left-wing leads to violence, or being right-wing, or being atheist.

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no path

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Ariston
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hosting
There's a place for those who love their poetry—it's across from the sign that says "Prose Only."

Or at least not here.

Tangent closed.
a, hh

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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Yes, of course I understand that violence and even genocide is committed outwith religion. I really do understand that, I promise! But to offer it as a refutation of the argument that violence is perpetrated in the name of gods is like saying cancer isn't the only problem because people can also die of banging their head too hard against walls.

And many here would promise you that we really do understand that violence is perpetrated in the name of religion. What is being questioned is how much is directly attributable.

Cancer is an interesting example. How many people die of prostate cancer rather as opposed to incidentally having prostate cancer? It isn't a straightforward thing to answer, even with very good individual-level medical data to look at.

Yes, it seems very difficult to me to demonstrate that religion leads to violence. Of course, one can assert this, but that doesn't demonstrate a link. One can point to various religious acts of violence, e.g. by IS, but still that does not show that religion leads to violence, except in so far that being human seems to lead to violence quite often. It's like saying that being left-wing leads to violence, or being right-wing, or being atheist.
Only when religion repudiates violence can it not lead to violence.

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Love wins

Posts: 16635 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Only when religion repudiates violence can it not lead to violence.

But to the extent that's true and not an over-generalization, the same can be said of atheism, secularism, politics generally—pretty much any societal enterprise. Religion is not unique in this regard.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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welsh dragon

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I was delighted to read about Muslims attending mass across France. Surely exactly what we need to be doing. This is the defeat of forces that want division and hatred. Maybe we should ask to be invited to mosques?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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A month or so ago I was invited to an Iftar (evening meal) at the local mosque during the Ramadan period. As mentioned above, a regional Muslim representative was happy to join us, and be prayed for, at an inter-church gathering here.

Good friends of ours in the UK, christians, have gone one further and have been attending the Living Islam festival in the UK. The promotional video for this event is to all intents and purposes identical to those for Stoneleigh Bible Week back in the day, which gives pause for thought.

I'm convinced that meetings like this, crossing boundaries, are a great way of overcoming distrust without in any way needing to compromise our beliefs.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Ariel
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# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Serious question: How do you stop a violent person who not only is willing to die, but chooses it? Like suicide bombers--except for ones that are forced or tricked.

If someone's planning a violent act and they're past listening to "it's wrong!", you can tell them that they might be injured, imprisoned for life, killed, etc. But if they want to go out in a blaze of glory, how do you stop them? And if they haven't done anything *yet*, how do you figure out whether they're venting, fascinated, or truly dangerous?

And what about those whose main problem is severe mental illness? AIUI, the Nice driver (hope I've got the right one) had pre-existing mental illness, and seems more to have stuck a jihadist label on himself towards the end, rather than really holding radical beliefs. Or the Munich bomber, who was obsessed with mass killings, but evidently wasn't religious.

Is there anything, even small things, that might help?

Missed this earlier...

The really dangerous people won't give you any clues or hints that they're planning something. This is in case you try to stop them.

Others may drop hints. Some may even talk about it outright. You're unlikely to be able to talk any of them out of it. If you're satisfied that it's not just venting, and you have cause for concern, quietly alert the police/security services. Step back and leave it to them: they have professional training and resources, and you can't do any more. There's a confidential phone line (in the UK, anyway) for anyone who wants to flag something up.

If they are "just venting", it's not normal behaviour to enjoy a detailed fantasy about mass murder of fellow citizens. If you're worried about it, again, speak to someone. It may come to nothing, but coming to nothing is better than it escalating into yet another incident.

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Yes, of course I understand that violence and even genocide is committed outwith religion. I really do understand that, I promise! But to offer it as a refutation of the argument that violence is perpetrated in the name of gods is like saying cancer isn't the only problem because people can also die of banging their head too hard against walls.

...we really do understand that violence is perpetrated in the name of religion. What is being questioned is how much is directly attributable.
Well okay, I would say that any amount is too much. In other words, even if it were the case that, say, only one tenth of one percent of all violence ever perpetrated by people against others was inspired by religion, and if only one tenth of one percent of that was perpetrated by people who would otherwise not have been inspired to act violently, then there has been far too much violence directly attributable to religion.

But lets hear it from you. If we can agree that some violence is directly attributable to religion, how much of that violence is acceptable to you?

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این نیز بگذرد

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
But lets hear it from you. If we can agree that some violence is directly attributable to religion, how much of that violence is acceptable to you?

This is a pointless question.

An "acceptable" answer would obviously be "none".

But the human condition leads to the existence of violence. There are times when it seems the only way of preventing further violence is a measured but violent response; for instance, in Saint-Etienne de Rouvray, killing one of the terrorists to prevent a clear threat of further deaths.

If you wish, you can probably argue that such rules of engagement are ultimately based on a Judaeo-Christian value system attributable to religion, and lay it all at religion's door. But I don't know what you will have proved by doing so.

Religion in general and Christianity in particular offer a response to what Sartre called "the absurd", which I think is pretty much coterminous with what we call "sin", but this side of the eschaton, it doesn't offer nice tidy answers, because that's the world we live in.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
But lets hear it from you. If we can agree that some violence is directly attributable to religion, how much of that violence is acceptable to you?

This is a pointless question.
I doubt that’s true, and I think it is dishonest to avoid it so.

Although it may (or not) be the case that there can be no meaningful philosophical discussion about the issues of religion being identified as the source of unacceptable violence, it would certainly seem to be of significant import to religion itself, since if sufficient numbers of people find it culturally unacceptable the result will inevitably be reactive secularisation.

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این نیز بگذرد

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