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Source: (consider it) Thread: What the actual fuck, France?
Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Must re-think my holiday ideas? As a pale-skinned, prone-to-burn psoriatic methotrexate user I'm advised to cover as much as possible when out in the sun, including swimming. Looks like La Belle France (a place I am genuinelly fond of) is not for me!

If you can survive Devon and Cornwall then Normandy and the north of Brittany aren't so different.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Eutychus, just out of curiosity, is this the sort of beach resort where almost everyone is rich? Would people have paid an entrance price to go on the beach?

Public beaches in France (i.e. almost all of them) are free.

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Eutychus
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And, Anselmina, I'm guessing you're white, not brown. In which case your chances of being harrassed by police under this law would be approaching zero in my view.

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Huia
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Hmm Headscarf, leggings, long sleeved, high necked tunic top - good thing I was going to church on a frosty Christchurch morning, rather than a beach in sunny France.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If you can survive Devon and Cornwall then Normandy and the north of Brittany aren't so different.

There was some talk of a hole in the ozone layer over Dartmoor.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Eutychus
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Now a restaurant head chef (link in French) has thrown out two veiled women, asserting "all terrorists are muslims and all muslims are terrorists".

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the recent burkini policies have legitimised this sort of action. Who knows how the reactions on both sides will play out.

[ 28. August 2016, 16:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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ThunderBunk

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Now a restaurant head chef (link in French) has thrown out two veiled women, asserting "all terrorists are muslims and all muslims are terrorists".

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the recent burkini policies have legitimised this sort of action. Who knows how the reactions on both sides will play out.

Can secularism a la francaise resist its co-option into outright racism? How do you think the Philosophes would react - would they see the same power in play as inspired their anti-clericalism?

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Eutychus
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I believe it can if it reverts to its original, largely Protestant-inspired idea, which was a level playing field for all faiths ("secularity") rather than the promotion of an atheistic ideology ("secularism").

I live in one of the few remaining socialist-controlled regions in France, where the leading politicians have come out more strongly in favour of secularity in recent years. The mayor of my city has repeatedly asserted that religion is not a solely private matter and that it needs to find its place in the public sphere.

However, the only national politician anywhere near this position that I can see right now is François Hollande. The far left is anti-clerical; virtually the entire right hides a nationalistic strain of catholicism beneath a veneer of secularism.

The odds of a candidate from the left winning the presidential election next year are, I would guess, close to zero.

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Eutychus
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The restaurant issue has hit the BBC news.

(I'd say the circumstances in which the altercation came about are not clear; the restaurateur may have been provoked, but his response is nonetheless unexcusable).

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The mayor of my city has repeatedly asserted that religion is not a solely private matter and that it needs to find its place in the public sphere.

But what does this mean in relation to private individuals, as opposed to religious institutions?

Regarding the OP, I'm just surprised that the French police have the time to harass women on beaches. It's hard to believe that this activity is going to help them catch more (would-be) terrorists, but I suppose you never can tell.

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Twilight

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On the other side of the issue, these women really know how to punish those male chauvinists!
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Kelly Alves

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It's actually the same side of the issue.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
On the other side of the issue, these women really know how to punish those male chauvinists!

What makes you think they're trying to punish male chauvinists?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Huia
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
On the other side of the issue, these women really know how to punish those male chauvinists!

Ouch! Sunburnt nipples. [Waterworks]

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What makes you think they're trying to punish male chauvinists?

Quite.

Besides which I'm struggling to envisage the average male, chauvinist or otherwise, regarding the sight of women going around topless as some form of dastardly punishment.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What makes you think they're trying to punish male chauvinists?

Besides which I'm struggling to envisage the average male, chauvinist or otherwise, regarding the sight of women going around topless as some form of dastardly punishment.
Might I gently introduce to you gentlemen the concept of "sarcasm"?
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What makes you think they're trying to punish male chauvinists?

Besides which I'm struggling to envisage the average male, chauvinist or otherwise, regarding the sight of women going around topless as some form of dastardly punishment.
Might I gently introduce to you gentlemen the concept of "sarcasm"?
Sure. Then explain how it applies in this case. As near as I can tell, "Boy you really know how to X!" used sarcastically implies (a) you're trying to do X, and (b) failing.

Nobody would say, "Boy you really know how to paint a porch!" if I were doing a bad job sawing down a tree. Unless for some reason they thought I thought I was painting a porch.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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mr cheesy
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I'm not sure it is sarcasm exactly, but..

The women are (presumably) feminists who feel that they ought to have the same social rights as men to walk around topless.

These are the same (presumably) feminists who complain about men being chauvinists and want to push their case that if men are allowed to go about without a shirt on, then women should also be able to.

But the irony is that the men who are behaving most like unbearable chauvinists are stereotypically the same men who enjoy looking at women's breasts whenever possible.

Therefore there is something of a quandary in that the above feminists are trying to force an issue that the ogling stereotypical chauvinists would also support - i.e. women's breasts being seen more in public.

Make any more sense?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Make any more sense?

Indeed, it is even more clear that "punishing" men is the wrong word. It totally misrepresents what feminism is all about. People who think feminists want to "punish" men simply do not get it. Whether through stupidity or ignorance or assholity, probably depends on the person. But you can't excuse being wrong by calling it sarcasm. That's what Donald Trump tries to do. He's wrong, too.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Indeed, it is even more clear that "punishing" men is the wrong word. It totally misrepresents what feminism is all about. People who think feminists want to "punish" men simply do not get it. Whether through stupidity or ignorance or assholity, probably depends on the person. But you can't excuse being wrong by calling it sarcasm. That's what Donald Trump tries to do. He's wrong, too.

Yeah that's part of the sarcasm - feminists stereotypically hate men and want to punish them. Chauvinists stereotypically like looking at breasts.

Of course, this is all a very low form of "wit" and one can very easily push holes in something this weak.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
As near as I can tell, "Boy you really know how to X!" used sarcastically implies (a) you're trying to do X, and (b) failing.

In Twilight's case, I think there's an extra layer of indirection. She is referencing the "commonly held" (among certain segments of the population) belief that feminists are all man-haters who are out to punish men.

By their lights, all actions of feminists are to punish men, and there's Twilight on the sidelines cheering "Way to go ladies! Get those tits out! That'll punish those MCPs".

The sarcasm is aimed at the idiots who think that feminism is about man-hating (or man-punishing).
Because of course a load of women going topless and encouraging other women to get their kit off is going to be widely encouraged by the stereotypical sexist neanderthal (as long as they're reasonably attractive women.)

At least, that's my reading of Twilight.

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rolyn
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I've never completely understood feminist theology.
Does it go something like wanting to promote the positives in femaleness as opposed to we wanna get even with men?

I rather hope that getting even is not the case as I do not believe that human civilisation has, to date, necessarily expressed the positives of maleness in anything like a balanced way. Doesn't look to me something worth mimicking anyway.
< by 'even' I don't mean equal pay or suchlike >

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
At least, that's my reading of Twilight.

Given other things she's said on the subject, I can't give her that benefit of the doubt.

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I've never completely understood feminist theology.
Does it go something like wanting to promote the positives in femaleness as opposed to we wanna get even with men?

Neither. It goes something like wanting women to be treated with respect, and to have equal rights and opportunities with men.

[ 29. August 2016, 22:05: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
At least, that's my reading of Twilight.

The problem with twilight is that it's too dark to read anything properly.

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RuthW

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I've never completely understood feminist theology.
Does it go something like wanting to promote the positives in femaleness as opposed to we wanna get even with men?

There is more than one school of thought under the giant umbrella of feminism. One of the most basic divides is between, on the one hand, feminists who emphasize the differences between men and women and who want to promote the unique contributions women can make, and those on the other hand who emphasize the basic humanity of all people and wish to promote equality of the sexes.

quote:
I rather hope that getting even is not the case as I do not believe that human civilisation has, to date, necessarily expressed the positives of maleness in anything like a balanced way. Doesn't look to me something worth mimicking anyway.
< by 'even' I don't mean equal pay or suchlike >

My grandmother said, in the 70s, that she didn't understand women's libbers: "Why do they want to be equal with men? Women are better than men!"
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Lyda*Rose

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The problem with that view is that if we are so much better, why are we screwed over? The stop-getting-screwed-over part is where feminists unite.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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German mayor fires Palestinian intern for wearing headscarf.

Does this perspective have any merit? And does integration as a value have merit?

quote:
[Although] German Chancellor Angela Merkel last week spoke out against a burqa ban...
"In my view," she said, "A fully-covered woman has little chance of integrating in Germany."



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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

Does this perspective have any merit?

And does it reflect badly on headscarf-wearers or on Germans?

[ 31. August 2016, 07:56: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
The problem with that view is that if we are so much better, why are we screwed over? The stop-getting-screwed-over part is where feminists unite.

We're better [Biased] ; we just don't have the temporal power, nor the financial and political backing.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
German mayor fires Palestinian intern for wearing headscarf.

Does this perspective have any merit? And does integration as a value have merit?

quote:
[Although] German Chancellor Angela Merkel last week spoke out against a burqa ban...
"In my view," she said, "A fully-covered woman has little chance of integrating in Germany."


This has enormous electoral merit. As for integration one needs to accept that it takes time: typically decades, and all legislation can do is prevent the worst of discrimination and disadvantage.

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(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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mousethief

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Does "integration" mean "conformity"?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Does "integration" mean "conformity"?

Assuming we're talking about cultural integration...

I'm having a hard time thinking of a form of cultural integration that does not involve at least a degree of conformity. If someone is going to move into the mainstream, culturally speaking, almost by definition they are going to have to start doing things the same way as most other people do.

Now, if you just mean physical integration, like, say, allowing people of different races to eat in previously segragated restaurants, no, I don't think that neccessarily means conformity. Except in the narrow sense that members of the previously exlcuded group will now be going to the same restaurant as the others.

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Carex
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Does "integration" mean "conformity"?

It could mean that others become more willing to accept the differences rather than forcing the newcomers to conform. With a large south-Asian community, headscarves and even turbans are not uncommon here. I don't see it any differently than if you or I were to decide to wear a kilt.
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Eutychus
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That is a great watershed.

In France integration largely means conformity to a theoretical ideal and communautarisme is very definitely a bad word that connotes pretty much to "ghetto".

Whereas in Anglo-Saxon cultures integration is almost terminally pragmatic (to Latin eyes) and seems to mean "salad bowl" with lots of cultures existing more or less peaceably side by side, and communitarianism is often seen as a good thing. Whether this can last is a moot point.

On the burkini and the French concept of secularity (laicité), here film director Yann Moix leaves anti-muslim French minister Nathalie Koscisusko-Morizet (aka NKM) speechless with a knocks-it-out-of-the-park and resoundingly protestant take on the original thinking behind the 1905 church/state law (link in French, sorry; more people should watch this).

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
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Stetson
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quote:
In France integration largely means conformity to a theoretical ideal and communautarisme is very definitely a bad word that connotes pretty much to "ghetto".

Whereas in Anglo-Saxon cultures integration is almost terminally pragmatic (to Latin eyes) and seems to mean "salad bowl" with lots of cultures existing more or less peaceably side by side, and communitarianism is often seen as a good thing. Whether this can last is a moot point.

I think you might be using the word "communitarianism" with a slightly different meaning than is usual in the Anglo-Saxon countries, where it means an emphasis on community, as opposed to the individual person. Rather than supporting minority cultures at the expense of the larger one, which seems to be what you're talking about.

Basically, for the anglos, communitarianism is an antidote to rampant indididualism, ie. each one person doing his own thing, regardless of community welfare. Which isn't really the issue in what the French see as the ghetto, where the perceived problem is not that people aren't submitting to community, but that they are submitting to the WRONG sort of community.

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Eutychus
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You may be right about the terms being not exactly equivalent, but the fact remains that integration in Anglo Saxon countries seems to be more along the lines of salad bowl, or at least more tolerant of the salad bowl, than conformity.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You may be right about the terms being not exactly equivalent, but the fact remains that integration in Anglo Saxon countries seems to be more along the lines of salad bowl, or at least more tolerant of the salad bowl, than conformity.

I suppose that boils down to the fraternité aspect of France's motto.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You may be right about the terms being not exactly equivalent, but the fact remains that integration in Anglo Saxon countries seems to be more along the lines of salad bowl, or at least more tolerant of the salad bowl, than conformity.

There are some norms that it is necessary to conform to in order to have a functional society. We all have to agree to drive on the same side of the road, for example. It doesn't much matter which one we choose, but we all need to make the same choice.

We all need to agree on what are socially acceptable hours for doing noisy activities (mowing lawns, building work, and so on.) We need to agree on what an acceptable level of noise to make inside your own home is.

But those things are necessary for a society to operate sensibly. Your choice of beachwear doesn't have any effect on me, so there's no reason for you to conform to my expectations.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I suppose that boils down to the fraternité aspect of France's motto.

Yes indeed, and it has been hotly debated since the recent terrorist attacks. It's much less quantifiable than either freedom or equality, and viewed in a certain light, has a nice spiritual ring to it, too...

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Your choice of beachwear doesn't have any effect on me, so there's no reason for you to conform to my expectations.

No, but in France your choice of headgear may compromise your job opportunities.

Passing through Schiphol airport not long ago, I was served coffee by a lady in some generic café uniform - and a hijab. It's a short hop from there to France and Charles de Gaulle airport, where you are just never going to see that.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You may be right about the terms being not exactly equivalent, but the fact remains that integration in Anglo Saxon countries seems to be more along the lines of salad bowl, or at least more tolerant of the salad bowl, than conformity.

The usual American version is "melting pot"; but I prefer stew or salad, because they allow for items to retain their own flavor.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You may be right about the terms being not exactly equivalent, but the fact remains that integration in Anglo Saxon countries seems to be more along the lines of salad bowl, or at least more tolerant of the salad bowl, than conformity.

Your 'integration as conformity' would, I think, be called 'assimilation' here. The way I understand integration, it is signalled by participation, shared vision, etc., - it doesn't require a denial of identity, whereas assimilation is blending in, becoming part of an amorphous whole.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Eutychus--

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
No, but in France your choice of headgear may compromise your job opportunities.

Passing through Schiphol airport not long ago, I was served coffee by a lady in some generic café uniform - and a hijab. It's a short hop from there to France and Charles de Gaulle airport, where you are just never going to see that.

Are there family-run Middle Eastern restaurants in France? If so, would any Muslim women working there be permitted to wear the hijab?

IME and observation, it seems that (in the US) minorities (of whatever kind) are gradually accepted more if they provide something that other people need/value/enjoy. Restaurants often do that. Sports. Art. Design. Service businesses. Even the old Chinese laundries, as stereotyped and derided as they often were, probably helped a bit, because customers at least got experience interacting with Chinese people.

I think doing charitable work and stepping up during disasters helps, too.

FWIW, YMMV.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
You may be right about the terms being not exactly equivalent, but the fact remains that integration in Anglo Saxon countries seems to be more along the lines of salad bowl, or at least more tolerant of the salad bowl, than conformity.

The usual American version is "melting pot"; but I prefer stew or salad, because they allow for items to retain their own flavor.
"Melting pot" does, to me at least, have the connotation of things blending together. Taking individual cultures and merging them into a single culture that includes elements from each ingredient but as a whole is different from what was there before.

Which would result in members of each community on the defensive as they see the loss of their cultural identity.

The "salad bowl" involves mixing, with the different ingredients living side by side, still creating an overall national culture that changes as new ingredients are added, but with each ingredient maintaining it's particular characteristic.

I know I prefer to eat food that has a mix of ingredients, but not where they're all blended into some puree. I want to eat things where I can have a crunch of carrot, definite pieces of chicken etc.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Melting pot versus salad bowl (and assimilation, too).

[ 01. September 2016, 08:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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# 8891

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
The usual American version is "melting pot"; but I prefer stew or salad, because they allow for items to retain their own flavor.

Yes, but in a salad, you can just pick out the bits you don't like.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
The usual American version is "melting pot"; but I prefer stew or salad, because they allow for items to retain their own flavor.

Yes, but in a salad, you can just pick out the bits you don't like.
Then "melting pot" is REALLY not the right term, because there are still "bits" that can be differentiated. No matter how integrated socially, a dark-complected black person will still stand out in a room of light-skinned white people, and vice versa. Some things, for good or ill, just don't melt.

I think this may be why gingers or black people are so commonly discriminated against compared to nationalities or religions: it's easier to tell. You might hate the Irish in general, but an Irish person with black hair who has lost their accent (if they ever had one) and has a common English surname is undetectable to most observers. But ginger hair is right there for everyone to see.

And middle-eastern looks are a (false) marker for Islam -- witness the Palestinian Christian who was assassinated recently in the United States. He "looked like a Muslim." It's the looks that led to this particular person being killed. His actual religion was invisible.

[ 01. September 2016, 17:14: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

Are there family-run Middle Eastern restaurants in France? If so, would any Muslim women working there be permitted to wear the hijab?

Now I think about it, in all the best couscous places I know, the waiters are all men. FWIW. (The best couscous restaurant in the whole wide world being Chez Omar on the rue de Bretagne. Omar is a Kabyle gentleman of a certain age who surveys his domain from behind the bar.)
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58

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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

Are there family-run Middle Eastern restaurants in France? If so, would any Muslim women working there be permitted to wear the hijab?

Now I think about it, in all the best couscous places I know, the waiters are all men. FWIW. (The best couscous restaurant in the whole wide world being Chez Omar on the rue de Bretagne. Omar is a Kabyle gentleman of a certain age who surveys his domain from behind the bar.)
Couscous is North African, and so are the Kabyles, who come from Algeria. I'm guessing that most of the Arabic-speaking food retail outlets in France are North African rather than actual Middle Eastern. In Tunisia women didn't always cover their hair, and there was a case in the news a while ago about an Islamic school in Britain that penalized or dismissed (I forget which) a female teacher from Tunisia who didn't want to wear a headscarf as it wasn't the custom where she came from. Things may have tightened up a bit in that respect in North Africa since then, of course.
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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Most times that someone starts getting worked up about headscarves, pictures of Queen Elizabeth II wearing one of her headscarves start circulating on the internet.

Half the time people just freak out over terms that are from Arabic or some other language. There's a kind of intellectual fog that descends once some funny foreign term is used, which makes people unable to rationally think about whether an equivalent thing exists in their own culture.

Frankly, the notion that a headscarf is "Muslim" and thus violates some rule about secularity makes no more sense than the proposition that a wedding cake is "gay" and is therefore not the kind of cake that a God-fearing Christian baker is capable of producing. The headscarf isn't Muslim, the person wearing it is. A non-Muslim could quite easily wear the same piece of clothing. It wouldn't give them an electric shock or strangle them.

Non-Muslim women with skin issues have been known to wear a "burkini". Heck, white men can wear very similar things only they call them "wetsuits" and everybody's fine. People are looking at the skin tone and appearance of the person first and then translating that into a reaction to the garment in a vain attempt to appear slightly less racist.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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