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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Hell   » Hell: Fausto (Page 3)

 
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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: Fausto
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Fausto( she said wearily) have you actually taken the time to visit Dead Horses and read the pages and pages and pages of what various people have said about inerrancy?

While you're there, can you take a little trip to the board description? The whole reason we HAVE a Dead Horses? Maybe then you'll understand why people seemed tolerant of various perspectives on inerrancy, and reluctant to get roped into a gigantic hairy tentacled tangent.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35053 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It's kind of like bouncing into a conference of gourmet chefs and announcing, " Guess what? There are other foods besides cheeseburgers!"

More like:
'Cheeseburgers will never be gourmet food.'
Chef: 'I cook gourmet cheeseburgers.'
'Macdonalds is NOT gourmet.'
Chef: 'I'm not Macdonalds.'
'You mean you're Burger King.'

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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I agree with the general consensus that inerrantism is not a big thing on SOF. Quite the opposite, in fact.

However, belief in divine inspiration of scripture(which is a different thing from inerrancy, though they do overlap sometimes) does have a bit of a following. I can think of numerous occassions where someone has argued that a particular passage from the Bible is so off-the-wall that it couldn't have been inspired by the Christian God, but is instead reflective of the cultural biases of the writer, and someone replies that the passage can't possibly mean what any unbiased reader would conclude it means.

[ 11. September 2016, 16:10: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Well,, then you've got issues with what "unbiased" means.

None of us are the original audience living 2000 or so years ago in the Middle East.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Well,, then you've got issues with what "unbiased" means.

None of us are the original audience living 2000 or so years ago in the Middle East.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by saying I have issues with the meaning of unbiased.

One of the examples I was thinking of was a thread where various Shipmates tried to argue that the author of Psalm 137 didn't actually think it was okay to kill the babies of enemy tribes. Among the alternative explanations put forward was that the psamlist recognizes that his revenge-scenario is fucked-up, and is trying to grapple with what he knows to be negative feelings.

Whereas if I were to show that piece of writing to someone not already commited to the idea that it was inspired by the same God that he loves and prays to evey day, he'd just conclude that it was simply a violent piece of hate propaganda, like a zillion others that have been written by tribalist and nationalist hatemongers before and since.

[ 11. September 2016, 17:09: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
None of us are the original audience living 2000 or so years ago in the Middle East.

But isn't the stock and trade of a massive number of Christians that the words are relevant across time?

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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...see, fausto, the reason we have Dead Horses( in case you haven't got there yet) is to prevent the OP of a thread becoming obliterated by a tangent that has a high likelyhood of becoming circular and repetative. For instance, if you go to the thread I courteously bumped for you, you are probably going to find the above idiots (WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER) making the same damn arguments they are making now, if you page back far enough.

Except for Dafyd's clever expansion of the cheeseburger metaphor. That was funny.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
...gigantic hairy tentacled tangent.

For some reason I read this as "gnostic hairy tentacled target." Those guys got up to some pretty kinky stuff.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63116 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Well,, then you've got issues with what "unbiased" means.

None of us are the original audience living 2000 or so years ago in the Middle East.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by saying I have issues with the meaning of unbiased.

One of the examples I was thinking of was a thread where various Shipmates tried to argue that the author of Psalm 137 didn't actually think it was okay to kill the babies of enemy tribes. Among the alternative explanations put forward was that the psamlist recognizes that his revenge-scenario is fucked-up, and is trying to grapple with what he knows to be negative feelings.

Whereas if I were to show that piece of writing to someone not already commited to the idea that it was inspired by the same God that he loves and prays to evey day, he'd just conclude that it was simply a violent piece of hate propaganda, like a zillion others that have been written by tribalist and nationalist hatemongers before and since.

I'm referring to the fact that all of us have biases, and the great thing is to try to be aware of them and do what you can to counteract them. Anybody born today is the inheritor of 2000 years of Christian influence, regardless of whether or not they personally adhere to Christianity. I don't think anyone will disagree if I say that Christianity is largely responsible for the change in human sentiment (well, SOME human sentiment) that makes that verse in the Psalms so abhorrent to us today. But there's a bias for you. Similarly we tend to have the idea that you should control your mouth and not say unbecoming things, no matter how angry you are or how justified in your anger. But even today there are whole cultures where this particular belief (=bias) does not pertain. (You ought to hear some of the things that fly out of Vietnamese mouths--major culture shock. In early days I was inclined to fear such people were monsters and ought to be locked up, before I identified this as an area where my culture and theirs differs.)

We're not going to ever get rid of all bias. But my point was that taking a passage to the man-down-the-street and asking him what he thinks of it isn't going to yield you an ultimate truth, either.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
None of us are the original audience living 2000 or so years ago in the Middle East.

But isn't the stock and trade of a massive number of Christians that the words are relevant across time?
Relevant, certainly. But there's a huge distance between relevant and "I'm going to take this text exactly as it appears to me, regardless of context, culture, language, and so forth" and run with it.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
None of us are the original audience living 2000 or so years ago in the Middle East.

But isn't the stock and trade of a massive number of Christians that the words are relevant across time?
Relevant, certainly. But there's a huge distance between relevant and "I'm going to take this text exactly as it appears to me, regardless of context, culture, language, and so forth" and run with it.
The problem is that some Christians pick and choose what is to be accepted as a straight* reading, typically DH issues, and what needs to be interpreted or taken with context, typically nasty, horrible embarrassing issues.


*No pun intended, but left because it works.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16949 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Surely. But abusus non tollit usum--just because somebody abuses the text that way doesn't invalidate its proper use.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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does this side discussion about inerrancy per se as opposed to fausto's response to shipmates who he suspects are inerrantists qualify as a *gigantic hairy tentacled tangent*?


*cliffie loves gigantic hairy tentacled tangents. Especially with garlic aioli sauce.*

[ 12. September 2016, 00:27: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11087 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Eeewwww. At least take the hair off! [Paranoid]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19992 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Eeewwww. At least take the hair off! [Paranoid]

You crack them open and pick out the meat.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

Posts: 63116 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
does this side discussion about inerrancy per se as opposed to fausto's response to shipmates who he suspects are inerrantists qualify as a *gigantic hairy tentacled tangent*?


*cliffie loves gigantic hairy tentacled tangents. Especially with garlic aioli sauce.*

Gotta love a girl who can take a hint.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35053 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Pssst...that's no hairy calamari--you're trying to eat Cthulu, and he's still alive!!! Run!!!
[Paranoid]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17986 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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