|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Hallowe'en costumes
|
|
|
Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
|
Posted
"It's offensive, stereotypical and Disney-like." Yes. Yes it is.
--------------------
"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
How dare children like and want to emulate someone who doesn't share their skin colour!
White children should stay white. Don't mix cultures, kids. Know who you are and be proud of it.
[ 22. September 2016, 22:29: Message edited by: orfeo ]
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Maybe Dirty Jew costumes would also be nice. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Maybe Dirty Jew costumes would also be nice.
No, they wouldn't. But maybe Jewish costumes would be okay.
That's rather my point.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
So, a schmatta and a very short tunic with maybe some spangly prayer tassles in strategic areas and a big glitter mogan david in the middle. That's about the equivalent as far as authentic cultural representation.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
What KA said. That is part of what you are missing, orfeo. That indian costume is not a bridging of cultures, but a parody.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
Fine, be all concise and succinct and stuff.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
Sorry, I was focused on the Disney story, not the other one. Should have made that clear. The Disney one has been in the news a bit.
[ 23. September 2016, 03:51: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
Like the Fighting Whities I wonder if a counter parody would be in order. Maybe something like an unwashed alcoholic trapper with syphilis sores as a "Pioneer Royalty".
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
I like how you think.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
I think the Fighting Whities aren't trying hard enough, though. Why have a guy that looks like Bob from the Church of Bob as a mascot? They should have some dude that looks like Jim Gaffigan in a stained undersized tee shirt and elastic cuff sweatpants. White athletic socks and zoris. Box of wine in one hand and Doritos in the other.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
What's it got to do with Halloween anyway?
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
What's it got to do with Halloween anyway?
In the UK, not much. But I understand that in the US Halloween costumes are considerably more diverse than our usual selection of ghosts, ghouls, vampires and zombies. And they seem to be worn by far more people than just trick-or-treating children.
Basically, Halloween in the US seems to have turned into a nationwide all-age fancy dress party with no discernible theme. Which is why, every year, there is some controversy or other about some of the costumes shops try to sell. I seem to recall one year we had a thread about the proliferation of "sexy" Halloween costumes.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
Somewhere along the line we picked up on the All Saints Day varient that we need to confuse the spirits of darkness by disguising our identity on the night before All Saints Day. I want to blame the Catholics, but I defer to the historians.
Also, specifically in the San Francisco Bay Area, Halloween can be translated as " costume based Bacchanalia". Know your subset.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
Those costumes aren't just sexualising the indigenous women. They are doing the same to the wearers, aren't they? Wrong all round.
And as for the Maui. Words fail.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
What's it got to do with Halloween anyway?
In the UK, not much. But I understand that in the US Halloween costumes are considerably more diverse than our usual selection of ghosts, ghouls, vampires and zombies. And they seem to be worn by far more people than just trick-or-treating children.
Basically, Halloween in the US seems to have turned into a nationwide all-age fancy dress party with no discernible theme. Which is why, every year, there is some controversy or other about some of the costumes shops try to sell. I seem to recall one year we had a thread about the proliferation of "sexy" Halloween costumes.
IMO, one reason this is different in the US is that they do not seem to have the same affinity to year-round fancy dress as does the UK.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
Though we do have our own line in classy Hallowe'en costumes: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24278768
Oh yes, that is certain. Note: The last link might not be one you wish on your work computer.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Somewhere along the line we picked up on the All Saints Day varient that we need to confuse the spirits of darkness by disguising our identity on the night before All Saints Day. I want to blame the Catholics, but I defer to the historians.
Also, specifically in the San Francisco Bay Area, Halloween can be translated as " costume based Bacchanalia". Know your subset.
In San Francisco and other large cities, there was a tradition of large drag dances that were tolerated while cross dressing was illegal the rest of the year. I can't remember which city but in one there was a tradition that the Chief of Police would drive the Queen of the Ball to the party. A cross gender feast of fools.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
The one time I went to the Castro Street Halloween Street Party, it was like if you let a bunch of university theater majors take over Mardi Gras, and added some disco. Unreal. Magical. Unforgettable.
Lilb, you deserve combat pay for wading into that trench of cyberpuke to fetch up those... Things.
[ 24. September 2016, 07:36: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Lilb, you deserve combat pay for wading into that trench of cyberpuke to fetch up those... Things.
Unfortunately it did not take much of an effort. Fancy dress is a bigger offender than Hallowe'en as it has a longer season.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
|
Posted
About a month ago in Western Australia a mother helped her nine-year-old son to dress as his football hero for a school function. She added to the boy's football jumper and shorts a wig of dreadlocks, and because the boy's hero is of Fijian descent, she painted the boy's face, arms and legs brown.
The boy won a prize, and the mother posted photographs on Facebook. The comments she received ranged from vilification to support, such as you may read here. (The article is hostile to the mother, but the comments below the line - scroll well down - are largely supportive.)
If you would admonish the mother, what would you say to the boy about wanting to identify with his hero?
--------------------
'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
About a month ago in Western Australia a mother helped her nine-year-old son to dress as his football hero for a school function. She added to the boy's football jumper and shorts a wig of dreadlocks, and because the boy's hero is of Fijian descent, she painted the boy's face, arms and legs brown.
The boy won a prize, and the mother posted photographs on Facebook. The comments she received ranged from vilification to support, such as you may read here. (The article is hostile to the mother, but the comments below the line - scroll well down - are largely supportive.)
If you would admonish the mother, what would you say to the boy about wanting to identify with his hero?
I don't know that I'd admonish anybody. I might say gently (if I were a friend of the family) that I feared the skin painting in particular was going to be taken badly by some people. In the case of the child, I'd probably try to use the situation as a teaching moment about how people see things differently and why we always try to think twice to avoid offending people inadvertently. (I'm certain the kid had no idea it would be an issue.)
The mother, being older, should have had more of a clue. But it doesn't sound like it was badly intended, so if she'd been my friend and I'd known about it before it hit the media, I would have done the "word to the wise" thing.
I recall being about 5 or so and desperately jealous of my Asian friends for their beautiful eyes, so much more attractive than my plain old boring round eyes. I recall trying to alter the shape of mine with my fingers. It seems to me a wholly innocent thing among the very young, and not something to inject adult attitudes into until it's absolutely necessary (as it will be at some point, since they must grow up in this world).
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
If someone painted themselves blue to better resemble one of the Na'vi from Avatar, or a Smurf, I would not expect there to be a reaction.
So why is there a reaction when a Disney costume enables a child to look more like a character that has brown skin and tattoos? Does it become offensive because that character is representative of a recognisable human being?
It's precisely any examination of intent that seems to be missing from the outrage merchants. I've got no argument against the proposition that costumes that are seeking to make fun of someone are a problem.
But now we're getting outraged about costumes that don't, as far as I can see, seek to make fun of someone, and even a case of a boy who was quite clearly seeking to honour someone.
"Cultural appropriation" has become such a confused notion that it now seems to equally cover both cases of genuine appropriation - taking something away from the original owner - and any case of referencing that has no intention of taking away, and indeed may be designed to celebrate.
It's getting to the point where imitation by a white person is not capable of being a sincere form of flattery, that there's something intrinsically wrong with a white person indicating that they like something from another culture enough to try it out themselves.
Meanwhile, there is no equivalent movement to ensure that people of African or Asian descent don't use European forms of dress. Because European forms of dress are "normal" in our societies. So it's cool if a non-European engages in European culture. And it's also cool, a little exotic, if a non-European instead engages in culture that comes from their homeland or the home of their ancestral roots.
I recognise that this is largely because of historical power imbalance. But addressing imbalance is one thing. Going apeshit over a child wanting to look like a character or person that has a different skin tone is quite another.
[ 29. September 2016, 14:35: Message edited by: orfeo ]
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
I've got to stop reading threads backwards.
[ 29. September 2016, 14:45: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Except there is this whole thing where people used to darken their skin and act out cartoonish versions of people of color as a form of entertainment. For about a hundred years in the US.
Yeah. Used to being the operative phrase.
Judging an Australian kid who is a football fan on the basis of what people used to do and why they did it makes about as much sense as assuming that if I say "bless you" when you sneeze, it must be because I genuinely believe your soul is in danger the way that people used to believe that. Or that if I eat fish on a Friday it must be because I believe it's a religious requirement.
Ascribing a motive to people for an action that has multiple possible motives is stereotyping. It doesn't become any better just because the people being stereotyped come from the dominant group of society. Not all men are pigs and rapists. Not all white folk are racists. Not all American tourists are loud ignoramuses.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's getting to the point where imitation by a white person is not capable of being a sincere form of flattery, that there's something intrinsically wrong with a white person indicating that they like something from another culture enough to try it out themselves.
"Getting to the point"? It's already way past the point, if you ask me. I reached that conclusion the first time I heard someone claim that white people shouldn't be allowed to have dreadlocks.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
You know me, Marvin. A model of caution and weasel words.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
It's a failing, but at least it's one you're aware of.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
Proud of, it seems.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If someone painted themselves blue to better resemble one of the Na'vi from Avatar, or a Smurf, I would not expect there to be a reaction.
So why is there a reaction when a Disney costume enables a child to look more like a character that has brown skin and tattoos? Does it become offensive because that character is representative of a recognisable human being?
Because this. It applies to the UK, Canada and Australia as well.
When people of colour have equal treatment, the outrage will die down.
Intent should modify reaction to specific cases, but it doesn't change the effect.
Appropriation v. adoption will never have a clean differentiation.
The child dressing as his favourite footballer did not need the brown skin to make the connection to the footballer. And few acts sit in isolation. That many people still do blackface should be enough to cause pause even if intention is pure.
orfeo, if a depressed time-traveler from the late 19th C was walking around saying 'I hate gay people', you might not vilify him. But it is very likely you would let him know why this might be considered offensive in the 21st C.
[ 29. September 2016, 15:34: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
The problem with the First Nations (Indian) costumes in the Canadian context is the ongoing problem of "missing and murdered aboriginal women and girls", about which there is now a National Commission constituted by the government of Canada. The link between sexualization and violence with our indigenous peoples is pretty clear already in Canada.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The link between sexualization and violence with our indigenous peoples is pretty clear already in Canada.
Not to me. Three times as many aboriginal men are missing or murdered than women, and that's not due to sexualisation. (Of course, the murder of men and boys is much less newsworthy than the murder of women and girls.) Also, from the same article:
quote:
the RCMP recently confirmed Aboriginal Affairs Minister Bernard Valcourt’s claim that 70 per cent of indigenous women’s murderers are indigenous men.
[...]
Its report found that 62% of perpetrators were either spouses (29%), family members (23 per cent) or intimate partners (10%). 30% were acquaintances and 8% were strangers.
I don't have much of an opinion on the rights or wrongs of non-indigenous girls wearing these fancy dress costumes, but linking them to the murder of aboriginal women seems a big stretch.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
You don't understand the Canadian context. The whole of the indigenous issues: Indian Residential Schools, missing and murdered, treaty land entitlements, the 60s scoop, high profile serial killings of prostitutes, substance use, third world housing conditions - all of it is part of it.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The child dressing as his favourite footballer did not need the brown skin to make the connection to the footballer.
Didn't he?
People wear football shirts with the numbers of favourite players on them all the time. Certainly with soccer/association football. I'm not actually certain whether or not AFL jerseys available for sale have numbers on them in the same fashion, but let's just assume for the moment that they do.
Does this constitute a costume?
Do you see people wearing football shirts walking around and think "it must be Halloween today" or "gee, there's a lot of people going to a fancy dress event tonight"? Do you perceive wearing a football shirt as having "dressed up" as their favourite footballer?
I'll wager a decent sum that you don't think that. I'll wager that people would have to do something more than that for it to register as "I'm dressing up as this footballer". A wig or something to convey a similarity in appearance to the footballer.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
That many people still do blackface should be enough to cause pause even if intention is pure.
Thinking carefully about my own mental state isn't enough. Apparently I have to think carefully about the mental state of everybody else as well.
No doubt this is why many Americans managed to be offended by an Australian KFC ad that only depicted Australians and West Indians (the West Indian cricket team being sponsored by KFC) and that was broadcast in Australia. We made sure that the ad wasn't offensive to West Indians who understood the context.
But unfortunately we COMPLETELY forgot to check whether or not Americans would be offended. You see, we forgot to think about them. The ad wasn't broadcast in America, and didn't have any Americans in it, but we really should have remembered that Americans have racial associations about fried chicken and therefore everything about fried chicken is inherently about Americans.
The next time I eat Chinese food, I will think carefully about whether there are any Chinese people peering through my window that might be offended by the deeply ignorant way I am mishandling my food.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
This was a very popular accessory at one point, along with a Dutch national team shirt.
I can't remember it being called out as racist.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The child dressing as his favourite footballer did not need the brown skin to make the connection to the footballer.
Didn't he?
No, he didn't.
quote:
People wear football shirts with the numbers of favourite players on them all the time. Certainly with soccer/association football. I'm not actually certain whether or not AFL jerseys available for sale have numbers on them in the same fashion, but let's just assume for the moment that they do.
Does this constitute a costume?
Fancy dress is a child's delight year round, that does not disqualify any of those same outfits being costumes at Hallowe'en.
May I speak to the voice in your head that at least occasionally uses the brain cells contained therein, because the one that wrote these posts doesn't seem to.
Austalia has a blackface problem, in some ways worse than the one the US has. At least they generally acknowledge there is an issue, even if some of them continue to do it.
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
This was a very popular accessory at one point, along with a Dutch national team shirt.
I can't remember it being called out as racist.
Yeah, the Dutch.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yeah, the Dutch.
No, this was in England. You're probably going to say now "oh, the English".
We loved Ruud over here. One of the most easily recognisable, famous sportsmen on the planet. Apparently, he didn't try and patent the wig either.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yeah, the Dutch.
No, this was in England. You're probably going to say now "oh, the English".
We loved Ruud over here. One of the most easily recognisable, famous sportsmen on the planet. Apparently, he didn't try and patent the wig either.
Sorry, not a massive football fan. I like it, but don't follow anyone so did not recognise the name. Dreads are not inherently racist, it depends how they are used. But blackface is a problem in the UK, though not as bad as the Americans or Australians.
Sport is weird. I've run into racist bellends who talked up players of colour because they helped their team win.
But racism isn't only about hate. It is reducing someone to their colour. Or associating that colour with an attribute, positive or negative.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
It's a freaking CHILD. I myself didn't know blackface existed until I was what, thirty or so? That's what comes of growing up in a multi-racial neighborhood.
Was I being deeply offensive by poking my fingers into the corners of my eyes and attempting to stretch them into a slant when I was seven? It was wholly motivated by frustrated envy and desire. Should I have been castigated because others elsewhere used the exact same gesture to make fun of Asians?
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's a freaking CHILD.
No, it is a parent
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Austalia has a blackface problem, in some ways worse than the one the US has. At least they generally acknowledge there is an issue, even if some of them continue to do it.
Do you actually read the articles you link to?
Quote: "it's fair to say the history of blackface has been largely confined to the US. Maybe because of this we are able to think of blackface as a US cultural export, like MTV and ice hockey, and not something that's bound up with a system of oppression."
The reason many Australians don't get inherently outraged about someone painting their face is because we don't have American cultural history that turns this into an immediate signal of racism. In EXACTLY the same way that we don't have American cultural history surrounding fried chicken and so we don't associate fried chicken with poor black people.
I'm not going to pander to goddamn American sensitivities here in my own country. Americans sure as hell don't pander to Australian cultural sensitivities.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
And let me echo one of the comments on the article: "blackface" consists of dressing up as a generic stereotypical black person and using that as a caricature.
Dressing up as a specific person who is black IS NOT BLACKFACE.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
|
Posted
lilBuddha: To say ‘No, it is the parent.’ is to ignore the question that I introduced up-thread, which is ‘what would you to say to the boy about wanting to identify with his hero?’
I remember in the early 1950s seeing the movie Les sept péchés capitaux [The seven deadly sins], which ends with an episode covering the eighth sin: that of perceiving evil where none exists.
Intention matters in both legal and moral senses: the actions of the mother and the boy were their expression of admiration and affection. There is no evidence of malice.
--------------------
'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But racism isn't only about hate. It is reducing someone to their colour. Or associating that colour with an attribute, positive or negative.
I didn't notice this specific bit of one of your posts before, but it serves nicely to reinforce my point. Dressing up up as a specific person is NOT associating a colour with an attribute. There's no stereotyping involved. There's merely the accurate observation of an attribute of an individual person.
A week ago I witnessed a male comedian dressed as a female Australian politician. Not a generic woman, a specific woman. He was brilliant. Are you going to declare he was sexist?
He wasn't trying to create a comic version of women in general and stereotype their behaviour, he was creating a comic version of a specific person who is female.
And alongside him a female comedian was creating a comic version of another specific female Australian politician.
Believe me, I'm using my brain cells. That's not code for "agreeing with lilbudhha" by the way. Using my brain cells means analysing things vigorously and showing you exactly why lumping a whole pile of things together and declaring them to all be the same is intellectually lazy and the source of a lot of needless grief.
[ 30. September 2016, 05:13: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm not going to pander to goddamn American sensitivities here in my own country. Americans sure as hell don't pander to Australian cultural sensitivities.
See, one of the reasons I deleted the fucking post you reamed me out about is that I realised the subject had been covered, and that blackface hadn't necessarily traveled to the UK or Australia the way it developed in the States. That was me trying to adjust to your goddamn Australian sensibilities.
But hey, I guess it's other people's job to respect YOUR opinion and viewpoint, a big bad Hellion like you can snatch up that respect with one hand and slap tne giver's face with the other. Because Winning.
[ 30. September 2016, 05:30: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Do you actually read the articles you link to?
Yes. Evidently more than you do before you pull quotes from them.
Here is the bit preceding the quote you used which changes the context.
quote:
It's a great example of transnational racism - why it's misleading to argue the offensiveness of blackface begins and ends at the territorial border of the United States, or with African-Americans. It also helps explain why Australians keep wearing blackface.
As our race relations professor - Dr Yins Paradies from Deakin University - pointed out, racism is a transnational entity. It flows like money.
"It wouldn't exactly be the first time racial ideas have come from the US or vice versa," he said.
In a globalised world it's a hard argument to make that you can't be racist here because we haven't got the same history."
It is not a problem because it panders to American sensibility. It is because it is an
Australian problem.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Dressing up as a specific person who is black IS NOT BLACKFACE.
Yes, it is. Nothing exists in a vacuum. You might not have an intention to be insulting, but the act is still tied to those acts that are so intended.
You might like to wear black clothing and give tribute to Brahman, but you are an idiot if you don't understand why that might be considered offensive.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
lilBuddha: To say ‘No, it is the parent.’ is to ignore the question that I introduced up-thread, which is ‘what would you to say to the boy about wanting to identify with his hero?’
He could do this without the paint.
quote:
Intention matters in both legal and moral senses:
Try that excuse accidentally doing 20% over the speed limit.
I'm not supporting castigating wither the mother or the child. But educating both is not out of order.
[ 30. September 2016, 05:43: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
