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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hallowe'en costumes
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
*shrug* Kelly, my response to your post had nothing to do with blackface being US-specific.
Because I'm perfectly happy with the proposition that Australians also do, or have done, spectacularly inappropriate caricatures of darker-skinned people.
What I'm not happy with is a proposition that every reference to a darker-skinned person is an inappropriate caricature and should be judged as such. The article that lilbuddha linked to (apparently without reading very much beyond "quick! I need to find an article on blackface in Australia!") explains why Australians don't have a kneejerk reflex reaction to the topic.
By all means, call out examples of Australians being racist arseholes who've darkened their faces as black clowns. They exist. Just don't confuse that with a kid who wants to look like his football hero who happens to be black.
To put it another way, I don't have a problem with saying that Australia has a blackface issue. What I have a problem with is lilbuddha's stance of reasoning that Australia doesn't recognise its blackface issue, based on Australians failing to reflexively condemn all face paint.
Your stance wasn't the same as lilbuddha's stance. What my response to both had in common is an argument that a particular case shouldn't be judged by stereotyping. I seem to make that argument a hell of a lot around here. And yeah, I was actually conscious that I was stereotyping Americans in the process. Conscious choice.
[ 30. September 2016, 05:52: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You might not have an intention to be insulting, but the act is still tied to those acts that are so intended.
Oh what bullshit. What utter, utter bullshit.
Let's convict all policemen who kill a black person with murder, because the act is tied to whichever policemen had an intention to kill.
Let's deport all Muslims, because, y'know, we have evidence that some of them intend to harm us.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
That is your argument. That is where your guilt by association line of argument leads to. You just can't see it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I'm beginning to understand why, during law school, the lecturers set so many exam questions with the same trap: let's see how many students say "this case looks a lot like a case we learned about in class, so the answer must be the same as the answer in that case we learned about".
It was so I would be trained not to say bullshit things like "your act is connected to the separate act over here that looks kind of similar".
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
[ Crosspost fun!]Well if you are responding to me, orf, you managed to completely bypass my point, which was that, after I realised I had posted without really considering some of the other posts on the thread, I withdrew my comment and admitted my need to read up. In other words, I had no " stance"
But I can see how the idea of someone deciding they might need to see things from another person's point of view might be a baffling concept to you. Winners don't do that! No retreat, no surrender!
For instance, lilb just laid out a great case that she is not the one grabbing at snatches of the article you posted.
[ 30. September 2016, 06:00: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Gee. She quoted one bit of the article, which I read. And I quoted another bit of the article, which came just after it I seem to recall.
And yet what she does is not equivalent to what I do. She supports her point of view by using the article. I, on the other hand, selectively quote.
Meanwhile it seems that the solution to fighting against the stereotyping of black people and their behavioural traits is to stereotype the behaviour of white people. Well that is SUCH an improvement, I'm sure.
[ 30. September 2016, 06:06: Message edited by: orfeo ]
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
See, when you cherry pick comments for that one sentence you can thumb your nose at, it makes me less inclined to suspend judgement and consider your opinion, and more inclined to go with my instincts, which tell me you are most likely completely full of shit.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Is it OK to dress as a specific person of another ace?
It probably depends on where you live, culture differs around the world. Listen to people of the culture that is being represented. If they find it offensive then it is offensive.
End of.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
See, when you cherry pick comments for that one sentence you can thumb your nose at, it makes me less inclined to suspend judgement and consider your opinion, and more inclined to go with my instincts, which tell me you are most likely completely full of shit.
It's almost as if you have no idea how conversations actually work.
It also reminds me of the client I had a couple of years ago who, on every draft, would write "we are comfortable with this provision" against every single bloody provision they didn't want me to change, instead of just telling me the ones that they had reacted to and wanted to do something about. Towards the end, when 95% of the provisions were settled, I finally snapped and told them how difficult it was to wade through to find the stuff that they wanted me to act on.
Listen, if you want to sit at your computer formulating a response to every single sentence you read, struggling to prevent each post in the chain of conversation becoming longer and more elaborate as you painstakingly ensure that nothing is left out, go for it.
Here in the real world I'll be picking and choosing what to respond to. I also won't be writing a comment under every Facebook post I read to say "I read this". I'm so daring, sometimes I won't even touch the fucking Like button.
[ 30. September 2016, 06:23: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Gee. She quoted one bit of the article, which I read. And I quoted another bit of the article, which came just after it I seem to recall.
Read the thing in its entirety and it supports the bits I quote more than the bits you quote.
quote:
Meanwhile it seems that the solution to fighting against the stereotyping of black people and their behavioural traits is to stereotype the behaviour of white people. Well that is SUCH an improvement, I'm sure.
The solution to fighting stereotyping is to understand why people of colour think what you are doing is stereotyping.
I'll quote yet another bit from the same article.
quote:
In any case, we don't need studies to re-affirm that Indigenous Australians find blackface - benevolent or not - racist and offensive.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Well, that's fine and dandy so long as we all know and agree what blackface is.
Oh wait.
PS You do comprehend that the footballer in question is not an Indigenous Australian? Or do they all look alike to you? You know, he's got dark skin, he's from Australia, so he must be indigenous!
[ 30. September 2016, 06:26: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
See, when you cherry pick comments for that one sentence you can thumb your nose at, it makes me less inclined to suspend judgement and consider your opinion, and more inclined to go with my instincts, which tell me you are most likely completely full of shit.
It's almost as if you have no idea how conversations actually work.
It also reminds me of the client I had a couple of years ago who, on every draft, would write "we are comfortable with this provision" against every single bloody provision they didn't want me to change, instead of just telling me the ones that they had reacted to and wanted to do something about. Towards the end, when 95% of the provisions were settled, I finally snapped and told them how difficult it was to wade through to find the stuff that they wanted me to act on.
Listen, if you want to sit at your computer formulating a response to every single sentence you read, struggling to prevent each post in the chain of conversation becoming longer and more elaborate as you painstakingly ensure that nothing is left out, go for it.
Here in the real world I'll be picking and choosing what to respond to. I also won't be writing a comment under every Facebook post I read to say "I read this". I'm so daring, sometimes I won't even touch the fucking Like button.
Dude, actually in the real world conversations involve listening at some point. If the whopping five sentence post I just wrote is something you had to " wade through" I don't think I'm the problem.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Well, that's fine and dandy so long as we all know and agree what blackface is.
Oh wait.
PS You do comprehend that the footballer in question is not an Indigenous Australian? Or do they all look alike to you?
sigh You cannot be this stupid. Are you being deliberately obtuse or can you truly not understand?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
[qb] Gee. She quoted one bit of the article, which I read. And I quoted another bit of the article, which came just after it I seem to recall.
Read the thing in its entirety and it supports the bits I quote more than the bits you quote.
He doesn't like reading things in their entirety. That's the paralegal's job.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
As is comprehending what is written, apparently,
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
It depends on where you are. Black people whiting up as zombies, as happens in some Caribbean countries is not offensive because white people do not find it offensive. A man dressing as a female politician is not offensive because women do not find it offensive. However if it is the dark skinned people who object to a child dressing as a Fijian footballer then it is offensive, even if no offence was intended by the child or his parents.
However if the offence is that of left wing idealists who are speaking on behalf of people they have not spoken to on this topic (and it grieves me to say this as I lean to the left politically) then ignore the stupid bastards.
Political correctness is about respecting people.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Well, that's fine and dandy so long as we all know and agree what blackface is.
Oh wait.
PS You do comprehend that the footballer in question is not an Indigenous Australian? Or do they all look alike to you?
sigh You cannot be this stupid. Are you being deliberately obtuse or can you truly not understand?
I understand plenty. I just don't agree. I don't agree with your ludicrous position that all people ought to be tarred with the intention of some people. If you're going to quotemine badly, I don't agree that this is okay for you and that you can't be criticised for it.
I don't agree that the very real problems of racism and sexism and homophobia and stereotyping are solved by treating all straight white men alike. I don't agree that racism is solved by failing to distinguish between different cultures.
I don't agree that a generic Amerindian costume in the 1st post of this thread can be lumped together with the costume of a specific Polynesian character in the 2nd post of this thread and treated as if there's no distinction between them.
I don't agree. I don't agree. I don't agree. This has nothing to do with me not understanding, and everything to do with me despairing about intellectual laziness in exactly the same way that I've despaired about the same kind of surface analysis on may topics on the Ship over many years. I am never going to be happy with a line of argument that, quite literally, divides the world into two black and white camps and reduces all the complexity of people and cultures and histories and interactions into a simplistic bunch of rules about how dressing up as someone who looks different to you is inherently wrong.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
It depends on where you are. Black people whiting up as zombies, as happens in some Caribbean countries is not offensive because white people do not find it offensive. A man dressing as a female politician is not offensive because women do not find it offensive. However if it is the dark skinned people who object to a child dressing as a Fijian footballer then it is offensive, even if no offence was intended by the child or his parents.
However if the offence is that of left wing idealists who are speaking on behalf of people they have not spoken to on this topic (and it grieves me to say this as I lean to the left politically) then ignore the stupid bastards.
Political correctness is about respecting people.
See, this is the kind of common sense I can respect.
Getting the feedback of a few Fijans would strike me as the first step in the whole process, rather than a bunch of honkified blathering about what is clearly offensive and what is obviously oversensitive. It doesn't matter what we do or don't, don't, don't agree with, what matters is listening to the people it directly effects.
And again, since what I began to write a page back struck me as honkified blathering, I deleted it. I don't like being dragged up to the front of the class as an example of an argument I took back.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
It depends on where you are. Black people whiting up as zombies, as happens in some Caribbean countries is not offensive because white people do not find it offensive. A man dressing as a female politician is not offensive because women do not find it offensive. However if it is the dark skinned people who object to a child dressing as a Fijian footballer then it is offensive, even if no offence was intended by the child or his parents.
Trying to look like a zombie isn't trying to look like a white person.
quote:
However if the offence is that of left wing idealists who are speaking on behalf of people they have not spoken to on this topic (and it grieves me to say this as I lean to the left politically) then ignore the stupid bastards.
Id certainly rather be spoken to and understood, but I find it difficult to be angry with people who are trying.
quote:
Political correctness is about respecting people.
Respect is what this argument is about.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Dude, actually in the real world conversations involve listening at some point. If the whopping five sentence post I just wrote is something you had to " wade through" I don't think I'm the problem.
Regarding Sentence Two: I'm discussing a general principle, not one specific post of yours. I have a tendency to be an abstract thinker like that. Which is kind of why I get so worked up about a lack of analysis.
Regarding Sentence One: What would you consider to be evidence of me listening? Does it involve me changing my mind? If so, that's a real problem because it would appear that only one of us can listen to the other unless we swap positions. Does it involve me responding to everything you say? I've already explained why, as a general principle, I don't think that's viable.
Additional point: Observe how much longer this post has become as I attempt to include my reaction to everything that you wrote and the possible implications I could think of.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Well, since I fucking stated three times that I had reconsidered the blackface argument ( as I just said to Balaam), evidence of listening for me would be if you STOP FUCKING ACTING LIKE I AM ARGUING WITH YOU ABOUT BLACKFACE WHEN I AM NOT.
"Change your mind?" I wasn't disagreeing with you! I was pissed that you were misrepresenting me! And along the way you started pulling your Daniel Webster and F,Lee Bailey Make A Porno routine, and your shrill defensiveness started tilting me toward the sneaking suspicion that you are full of shit. It's hard to be convinced by someone who hops up and down and throws papers around by way of building a defense.
God bless you, Balaam. We needed someone sane to wander by. Breath of fresh air you are,
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It may or may not interest any of you (please, by all means, respond by explicitly telling me whether or not it interested you, I'll be unable to cope until I know, how many Shipmates browse this thread anyway?)...
That this afternoon I've found myself censoring and rewriting several of my posts.
Why? Because I was going to write something that indicated the gender of other Shipmates.
I mean, heaven forbid. Mustn't do that. If I demonstrate that I've actually noticed the gender of someone, it's a short and slippery slope to proving that I treat someone differently based on their gender. Which of course is a bad thing. It's sexist. There's no reason in a conversation like this one to treat Shipmates differently based on their gender.
And so I rewrote things and avoided any sign that I believed that the 2 people I was largely exchanging barbs with were women. I gave up at one point and used "she", perhaps I could have gone for the singular "they" but to me that's for when you genuinely don't know the gender of a person.
So well done. You've made me sufficiently edgy about perception that I wanted to avoid the conclusion that, if I noticed someone's sex, my intentions must be sexist.
Not the particular prejudice that you wanted to make me touchy about, right? I know. But take your hypersensitivity where you can find it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Well, since I fucking stated three times that I had reconsidered the blackface argument ( as I just said to Balaam), evidence of listening for me would be if you STOP FUCKING ACTING LIKE I AM ARGUING WITH YOU ABOUT BLACKFACE WHEN I AM NOT.
This is what I mean about abstract thinking. For me this stopped having anything to do with your deleted post ages ago.
Whereas you think this is still about that because I haven't explicitly said WE'RE NOT ARGUING ABOUT YOUR DELETED POST ON BLACKFACE ANY MORE.
Right now, as far as I'm concerned, we're arguing about your need to have every point you make explicitly acknowledged in a way that is going to become very tiresome. No, wait, not going to become, it's tiresome now. It's developed into an argument running over several posts.
EDIT: Looking back up the page, you made a post complaining about "cherry picking". That was most definitely the point where there was no content about blackface whatsoever. We each wrote several posts quoting each other after that. None of which, as far as I'm concerned, were posts about blackface.
[ 30. September 2016, 07:43: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I don't think you are even reading what you write anymore.
You. Asked. Me. If . I. Needed. You. To. Change. Your. Mind. About. The. Costume. Issue. To .Prove You. Were. Listening.
I. Said. That. Question. Itself. Shows. You. Haven't. Been. Listening.
So, I guess the only reason you ask questions is to set people up for your brilliant rebuttals. Now I have a question: don't you realize how gamboling around like that might reduce a person's ability to take what you are saying seriously?
I mean, if all you care about is scoring points and demonstrating your brilliance, that's one thing, but if you actually care about what you are discussing, why undercut your credibility with silly word games?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
You. Asked. Me. If . I. Needed. You. To. Change. Your. Mind. About. The. Costume. Issue. To .Prove You. Were. Listening.
No, I didn't.
Read. The. Post. I. Didn't. Mention. The. Costume!!!!
See? Your mind put that in there. I can completely understand why your mind put that in there, but to declare in capital letters that I asked you that specific thing... no, that isn't what I asked. I couched it in more abstract terms because I was thinking in general about whether "listening" could be demonstrated by a changed mind.
[ 30. September 2016, 08:12: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
What. Else. Was. There. For. You. To. Change. Your. Mind. About? What. Did. That. Specific. Question. Refer. To?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What. Else. Was. There. For. You. To. Change. Your. Mind. About? What. Did. That. Specific. Question. Refer. To?
I've edited my post in the meantime. The whole point is that I don't need a specific thing to be referring to.
[ 30. September 2016, 08:14: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
( Christ Almighty, it's like arguing with a chihuahua puppy.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What. Else. Was. There. For. You. To. Change. Your. Mind. About? What. Did. That. Specific. Question. Refer. To?
I've edited my post in the meantime. The whole point is that I don't need a Specific Question.
I award you the last word. It's past 1 am here.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I know very little about Chihuahuas. But, if they think very quickly and abstractly I might have to get one.
I'm about to drive home, so I won't post anything else for... at LEAST half an hour. That should give you enough time to write quite a long post. One. Capitalised. Word. At. A. Time.
Your. Typing. Skills. Are. Up. To. It. I. Hope.
Personally. I. Can. Do. About. Seventy. Words. Per. Minute.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Kiss. My. Ass.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I do care about what I'm discussing by the way.
Demonstrating my brilliance is an accidental by-product of bringing all my intellect and skills to the discussion. Which I wouldn't bother doing if I didn't care.
In short, I'm not a troll. You didn't use that word, but it feels like that's where the substance was going.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Didn't you just go into a bit of a flap a few posts up about me putting words in your mouth? I never called you a troll. I just don't think your rhetoric is as brilliant as you think it is. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who has ever said that.
Chihuahua puppies, by the way, introduce themselves by jumping straight for your face, over and over again, with very little space in between jumps for you to take a breath. Sometimes it's cute, sometimes it's annoying as fuck.
I will donate $15 to the Organ Fund if you make that last sentence your sig for a week.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Did. I. Miss. Out. On. The. Memo. Where. We. All. Have. To. Type. Like. Shatner. Speaks?
(obligatory Khaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
orfeo, do you know who you are reminding me of? IngoB when he was determined to be Right™. Just saying.
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
[...] Chihuahua puppies, by the way, introduce themselves by jumping straight for your face, over and over again, with very little space in between jumps for you to take a breath. [...]
What? From the ground?? 5ft up? Like the Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog? - Now, that is rather worrying!!
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oh, snap! LVER. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Orfeo: I'm. Going. To.Bed. Now. And.I'm. Not. Shatner. I'm. Hal.
ETA : Oh, sorry, that was for Doc.
Wes: you'd be amazed.
[ 30. September 2016, 09:05: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
orfeo, do you know who you are reminding me of? IngoB when he was determined to be Right™. Just saying.
I'm flattered that anyone thinks I have his stamina.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I am never going to be happy with a line of argument that, quite literally, divides the world into two black and white camps and reduces all the complexity of people and cultures and histories and interactions into a simplistic bunch of rules about how dressing up as someone who looks different to you is inherently wrong.
That's not an argument anyone is making though.
Their argument is that dressing up as someone who looks different to you is inherently wrong if you're white. Black people can do it all they want.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
True. Got to fix the power imbalance by creating a new one.
I'm actually quite in favour of what is sometimes (often disparagingly) known as "reverse discrimination". But not as a universal principle.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Getting the feedback of a few Fijans would strike me as the first step in the whole process, rather than a bunch of honkified blathering about what is clearly offensive and what is obviously oversensitive.
This, but also getting the feedback of Australia's Aboriginal people too.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
orfeo, do you know who you are reminding me of? IngoB when he was determined to be Right™. Just saying.
I'm flattered that anyone thinks I have his stamina.
You don't seem to have his gift of brevity.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Dressing up as a specific person who is black IS NOT BLACKFACE.
Yes, it is.
I'm a LARPer. One of these days I might decide to play a Dark Elf character. Dark Elves, in the system that I play (although not all fantasy continuities) have black skin.
Do you think that wearing black face paint for that purpose is 'blackface'? Is it racist?
Or is it just harmless dressing up? Because it seems to me that if you accept that it isn't racist (which, IMAO, it clearly isn't) you can't convincingly maintain that the respectful counterfeiting of a Fijian footballer's skin tone for similarly frivolous reasons is. There's no moral difference between the two.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
orfeo, do you know who you are reminding me of? IngoB when he was determined to be Right™. Just saying.
I'm flattered that anyone thinks I have his stamina.
You don't seem to have his gift of brevity.
Tubbs
Nope. He gave that away to someone else. He sure as hell didn't have it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
True. Got to fix the power imbalance by creating a new one.
Riiiiight. People of colour expressing their offence at people of no colour pretending to be them changes the power balance? How exactly?
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Or is it just harmless dressing up? Because it seems to me that if you accept that it isn't racist (which, IMAO, it clearly isn't) you can't convincingly maintain that the respectful counterfeiting of a Fijian footballer's skin tone for similarly frivolous reasons is. There's no moral difference between the two.
Um, dude, elves aren't real.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Getting the feedback of a few Fijans would strike me as the first step in the whole process, rather than a bunch of honkified blathering about what is clearly offensive and what is obviously oversensitive.
This, but also getting the feedback of Australia's Aboriginal people too.
(Highfives Tubbs while stepping over chihuahua puddles)
Exactly right. I mean, seriously, it is beyond arrogant to tell people of color what they are allowed to find uncomfortable.
[ 30. September 2016, 16:55: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The article that lilbuddha linked to (apparently without reading very much beyond "quick! I need to find an article on blackface in Australia!") explains why Australians don't have a kneejerk reflex reaction to the topic.[/qb
There are reasons why Australians don't have a knee-jerk reaction and. if you'd read the article completely and comprehended it, you would see that they do not comprise an excuse.
quote:
To put it another way, I don't have a problem with saying that Australia has a blackface issue. What I have a problem with is lilbuddha's stance of reasoning that Australia doesn't recognise its blackface issue, based on Australians failing to reflexively condemn all face paint.
One of the problems in Australia is exposure.
From this article:
quote:
While the practice of blackface for entertainment has died out in America, it continues to happen in Australia. Elder believes this is due in large part to the population difference between Indigenous Australians and African-Americans.
“Literally the demographic difference is between a large African-American minority population in the United States where the power of criticisms of a big group has a lot more power,” she said.
“Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people only make up 2–3% of the population. So in that sense, their voices are not heard as much when they do critique blackface.”
“It also means that lots of white people in Australia can go through life without thinking much or knowing much about what it means to be racist or do that type of performance.”
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[qb] You might not have an intention to be insulting, but the act is still tied to those acts that are so intended.
Oh what bullshit. What utter, utter bullshit.
Let's convict all policemen who kill a black person with murder, because the act is tied to whichever policemen had an intention to kill.
Let's deport all Muslims, because, y'know, we have evidence that some of them intend to harm us.
That is your argument. That is where your guilt by association line of argument leads to. You just can't see it.
That is not my argument, you are actually an idiot.
[ 30. September 2016, 17:34: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
But really, do you expect him to consider every last little thing you say? He doesn't have to respond to your actual point, all he has to do is filter out sound bites that give him a good set up.
Haven't you ever watched Law and Order? Tsss.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Lilbuddha,
You're not going to change my mind, and I'm not going to change your mind. You will continue to link acts by different people into one narrative, and I will continue to insist on individualised consideration of the merits of each case. We're done here.
Kelly,
I just wrote something that would have just made you even more of a cranky child than you are now. Let's just leave it.
[ 30. September 2016, 22:24: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oh, thank you. The sense of relief at being spared is palpable. I shall sleep well tonight.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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