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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hallowe'en costumes
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

1. Can you remind me where to find the relevant article in which Australian people of color gave their reasons for being upset? So far I've only seen the rugby guy being quoted as having what appears to be mixed feelings. (I do note nobody seems particularly concerned that his feelings were mixed )

The reactions began on Facebook, but here is an overview.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It's as likely as anything.

Do you need anything about Canadian culture explaining to you while you're here? I'm sure our resident expert will take your questions.

What adjective would you use for someone who discusses the people and circumstances of a different country as if they knew more about it than someone who lives there does?

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Laud-able

Ship's Ancient
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To Golden Key:
Thank you for your reference to the New Orleans Mardi Gras ‘Indians’: they look splendid. I am surprised that they have not been condemned for cultural misappropriation. I regret that in all my times in the US I did not get further south than Williamsburg in Virginia.

To Callan:
Yes, I took the part of Melchior in 1946.

To Kelly Alves:
I note that lilBuddha has given you the newspaper reference that I provided in my first post on this thread. I pointed out at the time that the article is hostile to the mother, but the comments below the line (scroll well down) are largely supportive of her. If it helps to understand the character of the newspaper, it is – while much diminished in its old age – something like the UK Guardian.

The footballer plays Australian football, which dates from 1859.

And to answer your question in the post above, you might use the adjective lilBuddhist.

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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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That article didn't strike me as helping me sort out the information I was looking for, as both the "Too PC" folk and the " social justice " folk seemed to be white, for the most part. Judging by the profile pics, at least.

I'm still trying to sort out whether or not the average Kiwi indigenous person would tweak out at a white person putting on dark makeup, but I do think I understand what the mom was thinking, at least. She was trying to honor her kid's wishes. Whether or not I would have taken e same route, I get why she decided to err on tne side of letting him sort out hiw he wanted to honor his hero.

As for the comment I aimed at Doc--in the past, when I gave an example of how a particularly horrible and perniscious aspect of American culture affected me personally-- in a way that involved the death of two minors-- he pretty much laughed about it.

Yeah, I'm still sore. And even if it turns out lilbuddha is pissing off the toilet in this case, the stuff she us saying is practically like a Sondheim musical compared to the stuff he said to me. So, no, I think she's got a lot of competition in terms of dismissing people's experience of their culture in favor of demonizing it.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
To Golden Key:
Thank you for your reference to the New Orleans Mardi Gras ‘Indians’: they look splendid. I am surprised that they have not been condemned for cultural misappropriation. I regret that in all my times in the US I did not get further south than Williamsburg in Virginia.


I love the Mardi Gras Indians. My understanding of their history is that local Indian tribes were actually allowing escaped slaves to join their tribes, and that they sort of approved of the practice of slaves disguising themselves as Indians to confuse the "patterollers." ( private scouts who were paid by individuals to locate their escaped/ off- curfew slaves.)

So if it was appropriation, it was a sort of certified appropriation. The local tribes knew just what was going on, and they encouraged it.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Laud-able

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Thank you for your posts. What irks me in all this is the refusal of some people to accept the possibility of nuance. Tributes are not insults. In 1985 I saw a beautiful production of The Mikado at the Lincoln Center by the New York City Opera in honour of the centenary of the show, but in 2014 there was an idiot journalist whingeing about the Seattle Gilbert and Sullivan Company committing ‘ýellowface’ by announcing their production of The Mikado. It’s called acting.

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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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I'm all for embracing nuance, but I guess I am enough of a guilty lib to really, really want a few more voices of those directly affected in my ear. Until then, I think it's safest to say it's just not my call at all.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
As for the comment I aimed at Doc--in the past, when I gave an example of how a particularly horrible and perniscious aspect of American culture affected me personally-- in a way that involved the death of two minors-- he pretty much laughed about it.

We all get it wrong sometimes. I'm not immune to it, and whatever shitty things were happening in my life at the time, I got that wrong.

Apologies.

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Forward the New Republic

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Golden Key
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{From my American point of view.}

lB--

Thanks for that link. I think the kid was innocently trying to look like his hero. But this was Book Week, and he was supposed to be a character from a book. So why was he allowed to portray a real person?
[Confused]

It seems like this sort of thing has been a volatile issue there for some time, per the article. IMHO, it would've been much wiser for the mom to help her son find a fictional character to portray, as he was supposed to. Failing that, she shouldn't have painted him. But she was quoted as saying there's too much political correctness...

What a mess.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If I'm honest, a Black Boudica** on the screen would bother me because of the historical inaccuracy, but on the stage it would be delightful. But I am not sure this is right.

Yes, that's my opinion as well. And it's purely one of appearance - if you want to take a black actor and make her up in whiteface to match the historical descriptions of Boudicca that we have then I don't care, but on TV, she has to look the part.
Unless the actress concerned is going to be a celtic-speaking Iceni, I don't think that a black Boudicca is anymore unrealistic than an English Boudicca. (IIRC, the TV series 'Warrior Queen', with Sian Phillips as Boudicca cast a (light skinned) Asian guy as one of the Iceni.)

It's like the complaints, years ago, that Marlon Brando played Mark Anthony with an American accent. The correct answer was given by Quentin Crisp who pointed out that as none of the characters were speaking Roman it didn't much matter.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
But this was Book Week, and he was supposed to be a character from a book. So why was he allowed to portray a real person?
[Confused]

Mission creep.

When my kids did Book Character Day, they'd had access to plenty of books over the previous year, and time to choose. Most of the kids (and tbf, the kids' parents) translated it as a generic dressy up day, so we had video game characters, super heroes and celebrities in the mix too.

That's simply what happens, and the teachers have to roll with it.

(One Y5 did once come in dressed as the Witch King of Angmar, and was delighted when I said "It's the Witch King of Angmar!" because I was the only person who could identify the costume unprompted.)

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Forward the New Republic

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Teekeey Misha
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...he was supposed to be a character from a book. So why was he allowed to portray a real person? [Confused]

Real people appear in books too. Perhaps his favourite book is the Australian Rules Football Annual.

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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.

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Penny S
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The more I think of it, the more it seems that portraying the entire bunch of Iceni as black would be a very good idea, as it would bring out some aspects of the story which may hide behind the red hair. You wouldn't need to change the facts at all.
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Doc Tor
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The revolt of the Iceni is one of our foundational myths. It's a shame we somewhat glossed the meaning of that myth when we subjugated half the globe.

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Forward the New Republic

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Much of this has been white people explaining why brown people should not be upset about blackface. Which is them telling other people how to interpret their lives. The very thing that you seem to be upset by, yet is OK from them.

I've been saying why I think they are wrong to do this.

You seem to take it for granted that all non-white people have had the same experiences and have the same attitudes. And that you have the right to speak for them.

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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That's still one step closer to finding out how the situation might appear to other people of color than a bunch of white folk arguing over their heads like they weren't there.

[And Doc-- thank you. Sincerely.]

[ 05. October 2016, 13:19: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...he was supposed to be a character from a book. So why was he allowed to portray a real person? [Confused]

Real people appear in books too. Perhaps his favourite book is the Australian Rules Football Annual.
[Snigger]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
You seem to take it for granted that all non-white people have had the same experiences and have the same attitudes.

Not even close to the truth. Even within the same community, there will be variation in experience and how those experiences are viewed. But there are commonalities in some of the general experiences and blackface to ticks that box.

quote:

And that you have the right to speak for them.

Moo

Yeah, funny though that this exchange was begun by a whitefella and yet I am speaking for people who are not mine.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Unless the actress concerned is going to be a celtic-speaking Iceni, I don't think that a black Boudicca is anymore unrealistic than an English Boudicca.

You have to make allowances for your audience - in this case, the vast majority of viewers who are unable to speak the Brittonic or Latin of two millenia ago.

quote:

(IIRC, the TV series 'Warrior Queen', with Sian Phillips as Boudicca cast a (light skinned) Asian guy as one of the Iceni.)

And there's probably nothing wrong with that. I don't care about the ethnic origins of any of the actors - I care that their appearance doesn't jar me out of the sense of immersion that a good TV series should provide. Which means Boudicca has got to look like Boudicca (tall, long red hair,...)

quote:

It's like the complaints, years ago, that Marlon Brando played Mark Anthony with an American accent. The correct answer was given by Quentin Crisp who pointed out that as none of the characters were speaking Roman it didn't much matter.

Well, sure - there's no reason to prefer an English accent over an American one when portraying a Roman. I'd find a particularly strong regional accent distracting enough to jar me out of the sense of immersion - I imagine I'd have difficulties with a Marc Antony who spoke with a broad Glaswegian accent - but most accents would be OK.

As far as Boudicca's accent goes, I'd probably find an American drawl distracting, because one somehow expects Boudicca to sound like a modern day Southern Briton, even though she obviously wouldn't have.

On a similar topic, here is a report that Bristol University has cancelled a student production of the Elton John / Tim Rice musical Aida because it would have featured white students playing the lead roles. (For those unfamiliar, Aida the musical is based on a Verdi opera set in Ancient Egypt, and features Egyptian and Nubian characters.)

Music Theatre Bristol, the theatre society that was proposing to put on the show, seems to consist almost entirely of white students, so they don't have black people available to play all the lead roles.

[ 05. October 2016, 20:16: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I imagine I'd have difficulties with a Marc Antony who spoke with a broad Glaswegian accent - but most accents would be OK.

Yeah, Sean Connery is lucky he's from Edinburgh then, aye?
quote:

On a similar topic, here is a report that Bristol University has cancelled a student production of the Elton John / Tim Rice musical Aida because it would have featured white students playing the lead roles. (For those unfamiliar, Aida the musical is based on a Verdi opera set in Egypt, and features Egyptian and Nubian characters.)

Music Theatre Bristol, the theatre society that was proposing to put on the show, seems to consist almost entirely of white students, so they don't have black people available to play all the lead roles.

The problem here is the disparity of black people in higher education. I think the uni would have been OK doing the production as long as they didn't black up, but perhaps it is best they chose another play. Not like there isn't a plethora of all white productions to mount.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yeah, Sean Connery is lucky he's from Edinburgh then, aye?

Well, quite.

quote:

The problem here is the disparity of black people in higher education. I think the uni would have been OK doing the production as long as they didn't black up, but perhaps it is best they chose another play. Not like there isn't a plethora of all white productions to mount.

Bristol University is about 20% BME (Black and Minority Ethnic - UK government-speak for "not white"). That's lower than it "should" be, but not terribly far off the proportion of the UK population who is BME (about 25% in the university-going age range). There are plenty of black students in Bristol - it just seems that not many of them are interested in musicals.

(And I agree that there is no need to black up in theatre, quite aside from any of the racist associations of blackface.)

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Golden Key
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Re "Aida":

I wonder...would it be acceptable to have all the performers wear masks? As with Greek theater, or Venetian masks??

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
But this was Book Week, and he was supposed to be a character from a book. So why was he allowed to portray a real person?
[Confused]

After last year's controversy they banned golliwogs.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Batman. Batwoman. We all should be Batpeople, and just quite the other nonsense. Who wants to be anyone else if you can be Batman/Batwoman? Or maybe a pirate, but that's a different holiday.
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Brenda Clough
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I have a great Batwoman costume. It is made out of two leotards seamed together, plus a Bat cape.

I recommend to you however a Jedi cloak. Covers almost all sins, and if you are very short you could be an Ewok instead.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yeah, Sean Connery is lucky he's from Edinburgh then, aye?

Well, quite.
Wonder if someone could get comparable work these days with his attitude towards accents?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Laud-able

Ship's Ancient
# 9896

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The question of why the boy was ‘allowed to play a real person’ is irrelevant. It may well be - as Teekey Misha suggested – (and as did some of the comments below the line in the newspaper article that I originally posted) that his choice was inspired by the Australian Football League Record. The source of his inspiration does not matter. The fact is that his school not only accepted his choice, and allowed him to enter the parade: they also awarded him a prize.

Some posters who have chosen to take offence at this incident have written that the mother needs to be ‘educated’, that she should have ‘known better’. What condescension! People may take what offence they please, and voice their disapproval as loudly as they can, but the mere fact of their being offended - however deeply - does not give them any authority over other people’s actions.

In the 2011 movie My Week with Marilyn there is a moment when Sir Laurence Olivier - exasperated by the difficulty of teaching acting technique to Marilyn Monroe – exclaims ‘It’s like teaching Urdu to a badger’. I share the feeling.

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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
The question of why the boy was ‘allowed to play a real person’ is irrelevant. It may well be - as Teekey Misha suggested – (and as did some of the comments below the line in the newspaper article that I originally posted) that his choice was inspired by the Australian Football League Record. The source of his inspiration does not matter. The fact is that his school not only accepted his choice, and allowed him to enter the parade: they also awarded him a prize.

Some posters who have chosen to take offence at this incident have written that the mother needs to be ‘educated’, that she should have ‘known better’. What condescension! People may take what offence they please, and voice their disapproval as loudly as they can, but the mere fact of their being offended - however deeply - does not give them any authority over other people’s actions.

In the 2011 movie My Week with Marilyn there is a moment when Sir Laurence Olivier - exasperated by the difficulty of teaching acting technique to Marilyn Monroe – exclaims ‘It’s like teaching Urdu to a badger’. I share the feeling.

I don't know, calling yourself a badger is a tiny bit ungenerous.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Laud-able

Ship's Ancient
# 9896

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The only possible reply to that is 'Whoosh!'

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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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And people underestimate Marilyn's intelligence. I once saw a biographical segment about her. Showed her bedroom or dressing room. There was a close-up of her bookcase. If she was reading those books, no way was she unintelligent.

(And no, I don't remember the titles. But I was impressed, at the time.)

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
The only possible reply to that is 'Whoosh!'

Do you speak any Urdu?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
On a similar topic, here is a report that Bristol University has cancelled a student production of the Elton John / Tim Rice musical Aida because it would have featured white students playing the lead roles. (For those unfamiliar, Aida the musical is based on a Verdi opera set in Ancient Egypt, and features Egyptian and Nubian characters.)

Music Theatre Bristol, the theatre society that was proposing to put on the show, seems to consist almost entirely of white students, so they don't have black people available to play all the lead roles.

There is a story of the US Black Opera company Opera South that was doing a production of Verdi's Otello when the lead became ill. They did manage on short notice to find a substitute of adequate quality but who was white. It lent a photographic negative quality to the production. [Biased]
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Laud-able

Ship's Ancient
# 9896

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mdijon:

I have a very modest vocabulary as in, for instance, avatar, bandanna, bungalow, chutney. cunmmerbund and dekko, but my pronunciation is - I have to admit - sadly inauthentic.

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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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That'll be because you're a badger.

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Forward the New Republic

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Laud-able

Ship's Ancient
# 9896

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Not at all.
Badgers, as Sir Laurence clearly demonstrated, have no capacity for learning Urdu.
I know some words of Urdu.
Therefore, I am not a badger.

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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.

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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
But this was Book Week, and he was supposed to be a character from a book. So why was he allowed to portray a real person?
[Confused]

After last year's controversy they banned golliwogs.
There's often a storm in a teacup over Book Week. My favourite was the lad who was sent home from school after turning up in a smart suit with cable ties and a mask.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604

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quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
Not at all.
Badgers, as Sir Laurence clearly demonstrated, have no capacity for learning Urdu.

Not at all.
  • Sir Laurence asserted that teaching acting technique to Marilyn Monroe was difficult.
  • Sir Laurence implied that badgers have limited capacity for learning Urdu.
  • Sir Laurence clearly demonstrated only his own inability to teach Marilyn and his alacritous facility for metaphor.
Sir Laurence did not clearly demonstrate anything at all about either badgers or Urdu.

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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
But this was Book Week, and he was supposed to be a character from a book. So why was he allowed to portray a real person?
[Confused]

After last year's controversy they banned golliwogs.
There's often a storm in a teacup over Book Week. My favourite was the lad who was sent home from school after turning up in a smart suit with cable ties and a mask.
I was joking, but never mind Book Week. Then there was that time when a kid made a clock and the bomb squad was called in. He was suspected of being inventive while of Muslim background.

One of the major ways that adults teach kids how to "grow up" is to project all their adult issues onto kids.

[ 06. October 2016, 13:31: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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If some kid shows up dressed as Patrick Bateman, that's really time for a parent/ teacher conference.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Why, precisely?

I note in passing that my nephew, when he was younger, used to be full of a surprising amount of information about books he'd never read and movies he'd never seen. He'd keep wanting to confirm various plot points with me.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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It. Was. A. Joke.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Are. We. Back. To. Deliberately. Slowing. Down. Our. Typing. Speed. Again?

You. Seem. To. Think. This. Achieves. Something. Other. Than. Entertaining. Me. Quite. A. Bit.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Jokes. Are. Meant. To. Entertain.

Unless. You. Are. Stuck. With. A. Big. Fat. Stiff.

(This. Would. Also. Be. A Joke. Of. The. Running. Variety. Need.Any. More. Help?)

( Christ, that's a pain in the ass.)

[ 06. October 2016, 13:54: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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You missed a space.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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But where Christ is, there is extra space.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You missed a space.

Doing. This. With. One. Finger. Dickhead.

(And color me shocked that I type the phrase "Big. Stiff." and Wes comes breezing in, as if on cue. There's no Y at the end, Wes.)

[ 06. October 2016, 14:14: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I preferred it when we were talking about badgers.

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Forward the New Republic

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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I preferred it when we were talking about badgers.

A topic best avoided; the badgers were becoming very upset at unfair generalizations about their linguistic abilities.

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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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You don't know that. You're not a badger.

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Forward the New Republic

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Callan
Shipmate
# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
If some kid shows up dressed as Patrick Bateman, that's really time for a parent/ teacher conference.

When I was nine I read, for some reason, my mother's copy of Doctor Faustus. I would have definitely gone as Mephistopheles, had we had such a thing as World Book Day. Unfortunately my mother would have drawn the line and insisted I show up dressed as Rupert the Bear.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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