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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Peak Langton
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Steve, you realize you have hijacked the Islam/extremism thread completely? It makes it appear, among the possibilities, that your illness makes you unable to detect it, that you are a jerk, that you manipulate and play with your mental condition to enable yourself to play us. You bury discussion in, not hyperlexia, but in hypergraphia. The net effect is that you appear as a jerk regardless of reason. And I don't think you relying on alleged diagnoses or pseudo-diagnoses rendering you being unable to control yourself will wash.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It certainly is if you mix meanings. Judging in the pejorative sense is not the same thing as making an evaluation.
OK, you need to unpack that, I'm not sure if I agree or not.
quote:
To an extreme pacifist any violence, even in defence of self or others, is wrong.
Yes, I am aware of that.
And I'm aware that there are a spectrum of pacifist views. For example Gandhi, who I studied for some years, was not actually an extreme pacifist and advocated peace because he said violence was counter productive. But he also said that doing something (ie violence in protection of family) was better than doing nothing (ie passivity).
There have been a range of views even within the subset of Christians who believe that this is the main teaching of Jesus. In war, some refuse to do anything to assist the army, some refuse to take up arms etc. Some held pacifist views but decided that the global threat of Hitler's fascism went beyond the usual boundaries and put that particular war into a different moral category.
quote:
Many have claimed this very thing.
Sure, I'm not saying that my view is the only view. I'm just saying that it is a view I believe.
quote:
Not quite what I was saying. I am saying that such countries have gotten into pointless conflicts that they themselves at least tilled and fertilized the fields so that the seeds found good conditions for growth.
It is difficult to find any modern conflict that this is not true.
Sure. But what is the link between that and Christianity? Pretty tenuous - other than the countries involved often have a majority Christian heritage.
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arse
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It certainly is if you mix meanings. Judging in the pejorative sense is not the same thing as making an evaluation.
OK, you need to unpack that, I'm not sure if I agree or not.
Meet John. All you know of John is that he has been imprisoned twice for embezzlement.
If your then, with no further information, conclude he is evil and bound for Hell; you are being judgemental in the pejorative, judge not lest ye be judged yourself kind of way.
If you decide that you will not consider him for a position as your accountant, you are making a judgement in the assessment meaning of the word.
quote:
Sure. But what is the link between that and Christianity? Pretty tenuous - other than the countries involved often have a majority Christian heritage.
I'm not saying that Christianity is a factor. I'm kinda saying the opposite. That if these countries acted in a Christian manner, they would have been less likely to help create such situations.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Meet John. All you know of John is that he has been imprisoned twice for embezzlement.
If your then, with no further information, conclude he is evil and bound for Hell; you are being judgemental in the pejorative, judge not lest ye be judged yourself kind of way.
If you decide that you will not consider him for a position as your accountant, you are making a judgement in the assessment meaning of the word.
I don't think the New Testament is as clear as your example. It isn't obvious to me that the don't judge phrase applies only to whether or not someone is evil and bound for hell.
I think it is possible to make an argument that it is to be used in your assessment sense of the word - ie in forgiving, turning the other cheek and offering second chances.
quote:
I'm not saying that Christianity is a factor. I'm kinda saying the opposite. That if these countries acted in a Christian manner, they would have been less likely to help create such situations.
I'm not clear how you are suggesting a state can be Christian, given almost everyone now seems to accept that it isn't possible for a state to take on a religion on behalf of all members that belong to it.
If you mean that there are certain values which a country would have to display to show that they're behaving in a Christian manner, I'm not sure what they'd be - given that the vast majority of the teachings in the gospel are about individual person-to-person or person-to-God relationships.
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arse
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Jesus wept!*
mr cheesy, I am revoking your right to criticise Steve Langton** Your inability to grasp the use of examples implies a level of mental constipation*** only slightly lower than his.****
*Figure of speechº, I do not mean he literally wept.ⁱ
**This is sarcasm¹, I do not have this authority² and likely would not use it if I did.
***Also a figure of speechº
****This is slight hyperbole.³
º a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage
¹ the use of ironyₐ to mock or convey contempt
² the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.
³ exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literallyₔ
ₐ the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect
ₔ This definition is for the benefit of everyone as very few people get it right.
ⁱ Not saying he did not weep, wither. I never met him and, like I said earlier, it is a figure of speech.*
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
@ Callan;
It occurs to me from some of your responses that you and others here may be suffering from the misleading understanding of autism/Asperger's derived from Gene Roddenberry's flawed depiction of the condition in Star Trek's Spock and similar characters.
Aspies are NOT 'unemotional'. We are sometimes unresponsive because we can't read a social situation and don't realise/understand or just gut see that an emotional response is needed. We are also sometimes unresponsive because of the deep shyness and anxiety which can accompany AS and makes us wary of showing the emotions we do feel; also our inability to read emotions has often had the effect that we haven't instinctively learned the way to express things. And again, sometimes it takes time to process an emotion before we express it. It may take days before we weep at a loss, though our grief is real throughout.
But when we do understand, we're just as emotional as anybody else.
Another thing Roddenberry got wrong was his portrayal of the supposed superiority of Kirk's emotional response over Spock's logic. He was writing fiction in which he could make it come out the way he wanted - and even then there are times I feel Kirk's response was flawed even as portrayed.
In the real world, I reckon that the logicals are right pretty much as often as the emotionals - unfortunately there are a lot of cases where they nevertheless get overridden by the emotionals and with basically bad results. There are a massive number of cases where emotion just goes on and on perpetuating a bad situation and standing back and taking a logical view could have helped.
On the Romano-British - someone has reminded me that it was a significant part of the famous "Not Angles but angels" thing, which led to the Gregorian/Augustinian mission to the pagans, that even though by then something like peace had broken out, the Romano-British, a whole nation of supposed 'Christians' sharing an island with the Saxons, simply weren't evangelising them; and retained too much hated to have been welcome if they'd tried, quite apart from the hatred the war had left on the Saxon side....
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Leave The Great Bird of the Galaxy out of this, you logorrheic typebot.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Leave The Great Bird of the Galaxy out of this, you logorrheic typebot.
Sorry, Soror Magna; but I'm afraid it is a fact that while providing in Spock, Data, Seven-of-Nine and others, a role model for Aspies and a useful example for explaining the condition, Roddenberry also misunderstood it. He is not to be blamed for that as AS was not discovered till the 1980s (apart from Asperger's own work which got obscured by its origins in Nazi Austria), and even in the mid 1990s after the new research had gone public, I found myself dealing with medical professionals who hadn't caught on about it as quickly as absent-minded-professory Aspies like me had.
Roddenberry did very well - seriously, VERY WELL INDEED - with the necessarily limited information he had. My sympathy for Spock was a factor in enabling my self-diagnosis and even the flaws in the portrayal helped me in defining things.
I am a great Star Trek fan; but also, as I think Spock would have been, a fan of telling the truth about an issue like this.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Steve, you need to get it clear Asparagus or any other vegetables growing between your ears
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I'm reasonably certain that the Aspies I know eventually realise when they're being a dick. They also know how to apologise for being a dick when they get told they're being a dick, and they stop being dicks in that particular way.
What they don't tend to do is double down on being a dick in the same way they were dicks in the first place, and demand that people accept their dickish behaviour 'because they're Aspies'.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Jesus wept!*
mr cheesy, I am revoking your right to criticise Steve Langton** Your inability to grasp the use of examples implies a level of mental constipation*** only slightly lower than his.****
*Figure of speechº, I do not mean he literally wept.ⁱ
**This is sarcasm¹, I do not have this authority² and likely would not use it if I did.
***Also a figure of speechº
****This is slight hyperbole.³
º a word or phrase used in a nonliteral sense to add rhetorical force to a spoken or written passage
¹ the use of ironyₐ to mock or convey contempt
² the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.
³ exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literallyₔ
ₐ the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect
ₔ This definition is for the benefit of everyone as very few people get it right.
ⁱ Not saying he did not weep, wither. I never met him and, like I said earlier, it is a figure of speech.*
A more magnificent display of coding, I have never seen.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
Sorry, Soror Magna; but I'm afraid it is a fact that while providing in Spock, Data, Seven-of-Nine and others, a role model for Aspies and a useful example for explaining the condition, Roddenberry also misunderstood it. He is not to be blamed for that as AS was not discovered till the 1980s (apart from Asperger's own work which got obscured by its origins in Nazi Austria), and even in the mid 1990s after the new research had gone public, I found myself dealing with medical professionals who hadn't caught on about it as quickly as absent-minded-professory Aspies like me had.
Steve, no one hear cares about your theory that we're all misinstructed by Star Trek shows about characters with Autism and Asperger's Syndrome. A lot of us have been instructed by having friends and family with various syndromes. Oddly enough, they must not have watched the shows, because they're not obsessed with explaining everything in the world with one theological fallacy. When they derail things and it's pointed out to them, they say "sorry" and not "I have to keep doing this because... Aspie".
The reason your tongue is so frequently in your cheek as you keep using as an evasion is because your head is up your ass.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
I wish I didn't have to raise the point here but I'd got heartily fed up of the situation of people constantly telling me I'm ignorant of this that and the other when the truth is I'm well aware and I'm putting my view forward as the well-cooked, rather than 'half-baked', consideration of all the 'other interpretations' I've come across over the years. I don't claim omniscience - if only! - but I'm definitely not ignorant....
No, you don't have to raise the point here. Consider the difference:
1. I have read multiple tomes on this subject including A, B, and C, and have come to the conclusion that blah blah blah.
2. I have Aspergers Syndrome and have read multiple tomes on this subject including A, B, and C, and have come to the conclusion that blah blah blah.
Note the difference? What does the second one add to the conversation that the first does not? Hint: nothing. It's inappropriate. Keep your fucking diagnosis to yourself.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
I am a great Star Trek fan; but also, as I think Spock would have been, a fan of telling the truth about an issue like this.
Any truth you may be telling somewhere in the depths of your prose is entirely obscured by your way of telling it.
If you really cared about your message, you would take some notice of what people are saying here about that.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I'm not really sure what Spock has to do with any of this. IMO the average episode of Star Trek can be summed up as follows.
"First Officer's log: We are in mortal peril and, if we fail, the future of sapient life hangs in the balance. The Captain is currently snogging the Bird Of The Week and Doctor McCoy is engaging in the traditional human practice of 'whiny emo nonsense'. It therefore falls to me to save the day by being magnificently badass. Again".
So, I think that Spock might say something like: "Officer Langton, your views are indeed logical. However, as the conclusion of them is that people confronted with violence have no other option than to lay down and die, I think that we are justified in questioning the premises from which they are constructed. Mr Sulu, lock phasers onto enemy vessels! All crew: Battle stations!"
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
[ I'm not really sure what Spock has to do with any of this.
In a word: nothing. It is just another sidetrack where yon Langton assumes that everyone else here knows less about something than he does and that we are therefore getting our information from a dubious source which he needs to correct.
It seems to me we have clear evidence of Dunning–Kruger if nothing else.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by callan (with one slight modification);
quote:
However, Officer Callan, as the conclusion of them is that people confronted with violence have no other option than to *kill*, I think that we are justified in questioning the premises from which they are constructed.
Callan, I'm unpicking what I do in fact recognise as an extremely complex situation; a bit at a time, with no 'simple' answers. Part of that 'unpicking' has been to identify a flaw in the foundation of Islam, in Muhammad's idea and practice of setting up an Islamic state rather than the 'free church' situation envisaged in the NT. As the name of the organisation 'Islamic State' strongly suggests, that notion can and does lead to violent extremism as did its parallel when foisted on Christianity nearly 400 years after Jesus. Part of the dynamics of that is that any religious state inevitably involves a lot of nominal adherents - even if superficially very keen - who in reality approach things from a 'worldly' rather than Christian view.
Whether it is legitimate for Christians to fight wars or minor operations of simple human defence we can set aside for the moment - as I told Hosts I would to avoid going the 'whole Anabaptist hog' in the Islamic extremism debate.
Do you get it that wars of religion are wrong in Christian terms; and that not having Christian states is a good way to avoid such wars in the name of Jesus? And/or to avoid other wars for other reasons acquiring undesirable extra heat from a 'Gott mit uns' or similar attitude?
And do you further get it that the same applies to Islam, except that unlike Jesus he actually did set up a religious state??
To others; I raised the issue of Asperger and my hyperlexia simply to defend myself against the constant accusations of ignorance and of being unaware even that other opinions exist. Some comments Callan made sounded very like comments I've come across elsewhere from people who, inspired by the Spock depiction or not, wrongly perceive Aspies as unemotional.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
quote:
To others; I raised the issue of Asperger and my hyperlexia simply to defend myself against the constant accusations of ignorance and of being unaware even that other opinions exist. Some comments Callan made sounded very like comments I've come across elsewhere from people who, inspired by the Spock depiction or not, wrongly perceive Aspies as unemotional.
What I am doing is claiming that your approach is excessively theoretical. Generally, I am an uneasy supporter of the just war tradition. The two big war and peace issues of my adult life have been the war in the former Yugoslavia - where I was in favour of intervention - and the war in Iraq - where I was opposed. This has left me with a strong view that liberal interventionists, and the peace at all costs people, are both rather dismissive of the fact that their views have rather adverse costs for people that, they themselves, are not in any remote danger of paying.
Other people are claiming that you are a one note wonder (I am not because I think about half of my posts recently have been on the Jeremy Corbyn thread, and I have sufficient self knowledge not to start lobbing bricks at people from my convenient vantage point in my glass house). You're not the first person whose posts can be subject to those particular criticisms, and you won't be the last. But that's got nothing to do with where you are on the autistic spectrum.
Full disclosure. My nephew was diagnosed as autistic a few years ago and, afterwards, I took the diagnostic test created by Simon Baron-Cohen. The national average score is 8, the score for "you might well be autistic and probably ought to follow this up" was, IIRC, 33. I scored 26, at which point a lot of things about my life clicked into place. Not least that I generally regard Mr Spock as being magnificently badass.
[ 26. September 2016, 12:36: Message edited by: Callan ]
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I scored 26
Beat you.
Show off.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I scored 26
Beat you.
Show off.
I take my victories where I can.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
My sympathy for Spock was a factor in enabling my self-diagnosis and even the flaws in the portrayal helped me in defining things.
I am somewhat suspicious of self-diagnosis because of the exculpatory possibilities it presents - especially when it attributes instances of particular behaviour to a self-diagnosis.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Langton, you're not Spock. You're Wesley. The Star Trek character voted most likely to be thrown out an airlock.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
Sorry, Soror Magna; but I'm afraid it is a fact that while providing in Spock, Data, Seven-of-Nine and others, a role model for Aspies and a useful example for explaining the condition, Roddenberry also misunderstood it.
Steve, I know quite well that many Aspies see aspects of themselves reflected in Spock. But I don't think there's any evidence that Roddenberry intended that, or that in his mind, Spock was what we might now call "on the spectrum." I've looked for such evidence and haven't found it, and I have found evidence to the contrary.
It's just one of those things.
[ 26. September 2016, 13:31: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm reasonably certain that the Aspies I know eventually realise when they're being a dick. They also know how to apologise for being a dick when they get told they're being a dick, and they stop being dicks in that particular way.
What they don't tend to do is double down on being a dick in the same way they were dicks in the first place, and demand that people accept their dickish behaviour 'because they're Aspies'.
There are exceptions. I've come across people who use their Aspies as a kind of get out of jail free card. But that's nothing to with their Aspies and everything to do with them being a bell-end.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I'm reasonably certain that there's some projection going on when someone says "I'm just like Mr Spock from Star Trek", as opposed to "I'm just like Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons".
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
...I am a great Star Trek fan; but also, as I think Spock would have been, a fan of telling the truth about an issue like this.
In other words, "I think a fictional character would agree with me, so I must be right." Next you'll tell us you have an Anabaptist puppy that will convince us all of the error of our ways.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
...I am a great Star Trek fan; but also, as I think Spock would have been, a fan of telling the truth about an issue like this.
In other words, "I think a fictional character would agree with me, so I must be right." Next you'll tell us you have an Anabaptist puppy that will convince us all of the error of our ways.
This is getting a bit beyond a joke. I also think that Gene Roddenberry himself, not a fictional character as far as I know, would not want a situation where people get a mistaken idea about a disability because of an (at the time unavoidable) misunderstanding on his part of something which would not be widely known about, let alone understood, till just after he left his earthly life.
Even my OCD side is beginning to think some of you out there are far worse than me in your ability to persist in following up petty points like this....
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Nope. You are thinking of the Ship as if it is a collective organism. In reality, it is several individuals individually wishing to tell you that your theory is shite.
It seems to me that you have mentioned the Spock is on the spectrum thing more than anyone else. And without any reference to show this is what Roddenberry intended.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by Nick Tamen;
quote:
Steve, I know quite well that many Aspies see aspects of themselves reflected in Spock. But I don't think there's any evidence that Roddenberry intended that, or that in his mind, Spock was what we might now call "on the spectrum." I've looked for such evidence and haven't found it, and I have found evidence to the contrary.
I can't see how Roddenberry could consciously intend something that, as I've just replied to Soror Magna, wasn't consciously known by many people even in the medical world till the mid-1990s. But it does look rather as though, in Spock and some other characters, he was envisaging something seen in real life in people 'on the spectrum' rather than in 'neurotypicals'; and the connection has been consciously made, and mostly beneficially, since the (re)discovery of AS in the 1990s.
His conscious intent will I guess have been that 'logic v emotion' kind of issue; which is where the connection to AS can be misleading....
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
You might do well to read up thread. We're not interested in you excusing your behaviour by claiming illness or disorder. You were called to Hell because it isn't a joke. Kapeesh?*
*No, it's not Klingon, it's bastard Italian for "understand?"
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by Callan;
quote:
What I am doing is claiming that your approach is excessively theoretical. Generally, I am an uneasy supporter of the just war tradition. The two big war and peace issues of my adult life have been the war in the former Yugoslavia - where I was in favour of intervention - and the war in Iraq - where I was opposed. This has left me with a strong view that liberal interventionists, and the peace at all costs people, are both rather dismissive of the fact that their views have rather adverse costs for people that, they themselves, are not in any remote danger of paying.
I got that that was what you were saying. My position is in effect that I'm deliberately standing back a bit and talking theory to get the main point across. And also I'm playing the long game - in a way it's 'too late' once the Saxons are already actually marching up Mount Badon. I'm wanting people to think about it before they get into such danger, and may be less able to think clearly; and having thought it through, to be doing on an everyday basis the things that can help to prevent.
And one big preventative item is to avoid the idea of religious states, Christian or otherwise. If you're involved in such a state, whether a real or nominal adherent of the faith, you're liable to think far too early on about the 'stop them by killing them' option. Have you read the poems by John Gower that I posted on the other thread?
I don't remember my score on the on-line test, but it was well into the "You may have..." area.
Having said that, to keep things coherent discussion of the 'religious state' thing probably belongs on the Islamic extremism thread - it's a bit too real and serious for Hell.
For what it's worth I've found your posts a lot more thoughtful than others in that discussion.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by chris stiles;
quote:
I am somewhat suspicious of self-diagnosis because of the exculpatory possibilities it presents - especially when it attributes instances of particular behaviour to a self-diagnosis.
Like, me too... suspicious, that is.
Trouble is in the mid 90s, self-diagnosis was pretty much the only option for people borderline enough for the problem to have been missed in childhood but still ending up with significant difficulties causing depression and anxiety and other similar problems which were decidedly not responding to regular treatments. Psychologists/psychiatrists were simply not looking for (relatively) mild AS in adults, and had only just begun to look for it in children.
For the record one of my clear problems was 'elective mutism' - though it wasn't one I particularly picked up on while working things out, except as a sign of anxiety/shyness. What I do know is that when I discovered AS an awful lot of pennies dropped all at once and by adapting my life to that hypothesis things improved enormously and I haven't needed medication since apart from the everyday aspirin for headaches and similar stuff - and for completeness, the kind of medications anyone would have got after I was injured in a road accident.
The exculpatory potential was not in my mind back then; and even now I see it not as 'exculpatory' in that sense but just sometimes I need to explain my eccentricities and my absent-minded-professoriness, and the odd occasion when I put my foot in it. My use of it in the current situation has not been 'exculpatory' but because I was getting annoyed at that constant assumption of my ignorance of things I've been aware of for proverbial donkey's years - not something I need 'exculpation' for. I couldn't think of any other way to get the point across - and even then the 'hyperlexic/fluent-voracious-reading' bit was more important than the Aspie bit.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
I don't remember my score on the on-line test, but it was well into the "You may have..." area.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Try "well above the threshold for a clinical diagnosis", and I still manage to be a functioning adult. Please tell me you've actually been to a psychiatrist for an actual consultation, and you've actually been diagnosed with AS, because otherwise, dear God in Heaven, we are so going to hate you if you haven't.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
I can't see how Roddenberry could consciously intend something that, as I've just replied to Soror Magna, wasn't consciously known by many people even in the medical world till the mid-1990s.
Then it makes no sense for you to say things like:
quote:
It occurs to me from some of your responses that you and others here may be suffering from the misleading understanding of autism/Asperger's derived from Gene Roddenberry's flawed depiction of the condition in Star Trek's Spock and similar characters.
Roddenberry's depiction wasn't "flawed" because he wasn't trying to depict autism/Asperger's to start with. He created a character (1) whom he found interesting and (2) that served as counterpoint to Kirk. He talked about his inspiration for the character, and the logic vs. emotion aspect was very much what he had in mind.
The fact that others have seen Asperger's reflected in Spock's character says nothing about what Roddenberry was trying to depict, much less about whether "neurotypicals" in general have derived understandings, misleading or accurate, about Asperger's from Spock. I can assure you that your speculation that I am suffering from a misleading understanding thanks to Spock is totally wrong. My understanding of Asperger's comes from being father to one of my children.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Just came across this bit of mendacity on another thread and thought the response would be better here.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
Yes. But what is interesting is that [mousethief's] disbelief in the state church is apparently not based on the biblical teaching even though a very clear and globally applicable biblical teaching on that is available. Instead it's apparently based on modern secular ideas and the position of a modern secular state [the United States of America].
With the further irony in that that one of the major reasons the modern secular state in question has the constitution it does is because of the influence of Protestant Christian nonconformity of a kind which in a church context he rejects.
Which is either ignorance (SL doesn't know anything about colonial America or the early republic but just makes up what he feels should be 'right' based on a few scraps of knowledge) or deliberate falsehood (SL knows but decides lying suits his case better).
So a quick bit of history. A bunch of nonconformist Protestants settle in North America (Plymouth colony and later Massachusetts Bay colony) and immediately set up a theocracy, which then gets busy burning and exiling heretics. Enough heretics fled that they set up two more colonies, one of which (Connecticut) had its own established church.
In fact, at the time of the American Revolution most of the colonies/rebellious states had official state-sanctioned churches, with the strongest establishment in the areas settled by the "Protestant Christian nonconform[ists]" SL credits with opposing state churches. This is precisely the opposite of what we'd expect to see if we were to take SL seriously.
Add in that the advocates of the new Constitution never argued for it in religious terms (see the Federalist Papers) while opponents frequently did. (The prohibition on religious tests for public office was a major sticking point for anti-federalists.) If anything the United States has the Constitution it does despite "the influence of Protestant Christian nonconformity" rather than because of it.
Yet another instance of Steve Langton confusing what he thinks history should be like with history that actually happened.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I scored 26
Beat you.
Damn. Must try that little bit harder.
I honestly didn't know until now there was a test for it, though, so this thread has been educational. Once or twice online I've been "accused" of autism traits. This has been on forums where people freak out over conflict and you're supposed to be nice to people by agreeing with them even when they say something stupid.
[ 26. September 2016, 23:16: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
orfeo
Yes, there are a variety of online tests for possible autism/Asperger. They don't offer a definitive diagnosis but do offer a clue that you may be autistic and should investigate further.
Actually some of the ideas around autism offer a fresh understanding of the workings of the mind in general and the test may, whatever the result, give you some helpful clues on the workings of your own mind.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Um, yeah. Thanks and all, but I didn't say that I thought I might be autistic. No-one who's ever MET me has suggested such a thing.
And if anything I am excessively aware of the workings of my own mind. I spend too much time there.
[ 27. September 2016, 10:46: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
But enough about orfeo, let's get back to you, Steve.
Please tell us that your AS is an actual diagnosis made by an appropriate health professional.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But enough about orfeo, let's get back to you, Steve.
Please tell us that your AS is an actual diagnosis made by an appropriate health professional.
One knock for yes, two knocks for no?
I think the mistake you're making here is in expecting Steve to give a straight answer to a straight question.
Yon Langton likes giving out questions but can't bring himself to actually answer anything.
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arse
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
The short answer, Doc Tor, is YES. But in view of the flurry of comments yesterday I'm preparing a longer and more considered answer which should be posted later today.
Yon Langton, mr cheesy, is finding it a bit tricky to give you some answers without knowing your own response to the question about whether or not Muhammad, as a bit of historical fact, set up as de facto Islamic state by de facto military means. It's hardly irrelevant as it is clearly a significant part of the reasoning of Islamic extremists....
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Good, in the sense that, if you were simply self-diagnosing, that'd be a really dickish thing to blame your other, far more obvious faults on.
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Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
from the other thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
Alan, if people really just aren't going to listen, there's no point anyway. I take a bit of an attitude on that one of get the truth out there and leave God to bring the right people to it.
But I think this is a case where there is a potential audience, created in reaction to the extremists, of people who are both unhappy with the effects of 'state Islam' AND struggling to find a credible alternative within Islam to meet that dissatisfaction. We can offer them an external alternative.
And I also think it's a bit of a logical weakness that after clearly claiming the God of Abraham and Jesus as his God - Muhammad needs to claim the older Scriptures are corrupted - and yet it's the supposedly corrupt scriptures that contain the better way???
And in end, the question is in that contrast - a God who gives a really good way through Jesus and the apostles to spread a religion non-coercively, voluntarily; and then 600 years later changes his mind and tells Muhammad to go back to the essentially coercive state religion where in many ways the state is something of a barrier to preaching and hearing the word' and the 'conversion through force' questionable.....
What I'm saying is confront Islam with that kind of thing, ask the question which is the better way, the most 'God like'? Of course to do it, some Christian repentance and change will be needed as well....
Right.
What it is: this sets you apart as a special kind of moron who believes that they have a higher purpose than everyone else - in other words using this forum to expound your wacky thoughts on the world to a constituency who is very unlkely to even be listening, at the same time as refusing to engage properly with the people who are actually here to discuss stuff.
There is a guy who does that on my road; each day he cycles past in a luminous jack wearing a large board with that day's slogan about the end of the world. That's you that is.
This board is not here for you to expound your religious and political views. We're not all here to assist you to "get the truth out" and it is frankly fucking insulting that you don't get that.
The service you want, Steve Langton, is a blog. Not a discussion board.
If we all behaved like you and our new friend Greatest I Am, there wouldn't be a discussion board, there would just be a bunch of wacked-out idiots posting random shit in the hope that someone somewhere might notice. There is a service for that kind of thing, it's called twitter.
Engage or piss off.
[ 27. September 2016, 20:52: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Why does anyone care is Stevie Not-wonder suffers from asparagus? Many people suffer from all sorts of things and aren't arrogant, rude, obnoxious nor any other flavour of bunghole.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Why does anyone care is Stevie Not-wonder suffers from asparagus?
Ah well, if he suffers from asparagus, that's totally different. Having a full diagnosis of being a vegetable would at least make something about him different and interesting.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
by mr cheesy;
quote:
This board is not here for you to expound your religious and political views. We're not all here to assist you to "get the truth out" and it is frankly fucking insulting that you don't get that.
Context, mr cheesy, is extremely important to interpretation. My comment there is not about what happens on this board, but about Alan's view of likely Muslim response. No, you're not here to assist me to "get the truth out" - that's neither what I said nor what I meant.
I am discussing the origins of Islamic extremism. Alan who is an Admin on the Ship has engaged in that discussion with me - you've evaded what ought to be a very simple question about what most people, as far as I can tell, agree is a historic fact about Muhammad, and you're very openly insulting me.
I have a blog - feel free to come and comment; if you expect me to post your comments, rough arguing I can stand; sneering insults like you go in for I won't.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
Obviously after yesterday I took a deep breath – and wasn't going to post any instant 'soundbitey' response. I'd intended to post this along with a response to Croesos' comments on American constitutional issues, but haven't finished that.
Yes, I have a formal diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. Like many people on the borderline and with late-in-life diagnosis so I've been knocked around by the world a bit, I'm not an entirely typical case. I regard it myself as being borderline – unfortunately just enough on the wrong side of the border to make life very difficult till it was worked out.
In the then context, I was being treated for depression/anxiety but neither I nor my medical advisers over many years could get a handle on possible underlying causes. And even after AS went public in the mid 1990s, many mental health professionals simply weren't looking for autism that had escaped childhood diagnosis.
My experience was that in the mid-1990s I was introduced to not just autism as a list of symptoms but a fairly comprehensive account of the latest ideas on how it worked. At that point, an awful lot of pennies dropped all at once and a lot of previously puzzling aspects of my life finally made some sort of sense. I was able to use this new understanding to develop coping strategies which improved my life as previous understandings and treatments had not.
Simple as that.
One of my coping strategies is to talk freely about AS. That not only helps others to cope with me, but has helped others with AS to seek diagnosis and learn to live with it. AS-related insights are also useful to all kinds of people in other areas.
Spock;
I mentioned this almost in passing in challenging Callan's view that I seemed a bit too theoretical and a suggestion that I wasn't 'feeling' certain aspects of the matters under discussion. Spock and other Star Trek characters have been associated with AS and I've noted that sometimes people do interpret that to mean people with AS don't have emotions. I used that as a reference point in my reply to Callan. I've also pointed out that in some ways I am indeed being theoretical on the state-and-church issues, though I've a considerable emotional reaction as well, precisely because I think emotions have often clouded those issues.
Logically I know that the time-scale, with AS rediscovered by autism professionals in the early 1980s and not going public with the wider understanding of the milder forms until the mid 1990s, means that Roddenberry could not have specifically and consciously intended Spock to be an Aspie. My original comment could have been clearer on that. He obviously primarily had in mind the contrast between logical and emotional and created Spock to embody that idea. At the same time, the Spock character is very rounded, and I think it unlikely that he is a merely abstract creation – I don't think he would have worked so well if he was. I'd be pretty sure that he had some origins in real people Roddenberry knew, and I suspect if we could trace those people we'd probably find they were people who post 1990 would have at least been suspected of being AS cases.
Though not, because of the timeline, consciously portraying AS, Spock and the parallel Star Trek characters were mostly a good portrayal which has been helpful in relation to AS – the 'logical v emotional' thing was however not truly or fully applicable to AS and is potentially unhelpful. And I am pretty sure Roddenberry himself would not want such a misunderstanding causing difficulties to disabled/different people.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I'm confused---is this a hell thread, or a memoir?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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